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A reminder about crowdfunding

A little off topic from the game, I start with this saying:
"He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone" 

Part of crowdfunding is pay checks....People think developers should starve ?....and what they do with that money is no ones business.  Does your boss say, I'll pay you this week as long as you tell me what you'll be spending it on ? 

I'm sure many here hate the unfair displacement among rich and poor. But being in the video game industry is extremely risky no matter how intelligent you are "it takes a lot of guts".  An intelligent person has many non-risky paths to be successful in life and this is one of the worst ones to be in. 

If Pantheon is your style of game that you hope to be rekindled from the ashes, the player should be "grateful" in someone taking such a risk.  Taking on a game such as this is yet a much deeper risk than mentioned above.  Visionary Realms are battling against great odds. 

It's already proven Pantheon is in development.  To say at this point it's not is nonsense. 




It's 100% pure passion on their part, no other way to explain it !
  

Their is no one that despises undeserving rich people more than me.  Professional sports players are my gripe.  Their should be less than a million dollar cap on their pay checks (far less really)....After that, they are milking the public for entertainment.

I have great appreciation for what their doing......Visionary Realms, keep up the good work :)
Gdemaminatpick
«13

Comments

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,349
    edited April 2019
    Let me lob the first stone in :) :


    They have passion and are taking a risk but they are looking for a profit too and there is nothing wrong with that. Wanting to make money is not the problem with gaming today, that is perfectly natural. The problem with gaming today is that gaming companies have changed their culture to one of profit before quality of game. You used to make a great game and get a great profit, now you release something like Bless (where are we now 3 versions?), FO76, Anthem take the money and maybe make them into a good game down the line.

    If you want more evidence of this change in culture look at the directors of gaming companies. Virtually none of them has any sort of gaming background, some like the former head of EA even crowed about the changes they were going to make to EA, putting accounting before creativity.

    So profit is good, as long as you give the consumer a good product.
    delete5230SharneGdemamiHatefullnatpickjonp200

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  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    Scot said:
    Let me lob the first stone in :) :


    They have passion and are taking a risk but they are looking for a profit too and there is nothing wrong with that. Wanting to make money is not the problem with gaming today, that is perfectly natural. The problem with gaming today is that gaming companies have changed their culture to one of profit before quality of game. You used to make a great game and get a great profit, now you release something like Bless (where are we now 3 versions?), FO76, Anthem take the money and maybe make them into a good game down the line.

    If you want more evidence of this change in culture look at the directors of gaming companies. Virtually none of them has any sort of gaming background, some like the former head of EA even crowed about the changes they were going to make to EA, putting accounting before creativity.

    So profit is good, as long as you give the consumer a good product.
    This is all fact.  We all know it, infact every product available for consumers are being cheaply made. I'll refrain from giving my fifty or more examples. 

    But I do have to say video games always seemed to have a deeper level of deterioration with a far lesser chance of consumer protection.... It's like:

    "you paid for it, you now own it"..... It's always been like this, we always had to live with this exception.   



    In the early years of mmorpgs were built with passion.  Developers created games above the un-checked consumer protection.  Sure some failed but greed was not the problem.  It was simply a failed project.

    The change of culture you refer to is Big Business.... Greed first ! 



    Visionary Realms are Old School management.  I don't think you can find this in any product.
    The vision is F#$^% You to Big business..... I have an idea and I'll not allow you to stop me ! 



    I completely and 100% believe their is zero greed in this product.  It's motivated by rebuilding dignity and regaining respect.  And most of all PURE PASSION !!!! 
    Gdemami
  • bwwianakievbwwianakiev Member UncommonPosts: 111
    I 100% agree. I feel the same about this and Star Citizen.
    Kyleranmcd6993Hatefull
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,373
    edited May 2019
    Scot said:
    Let me lob the first stone in :) :


    They have passion and are taking a risk but they are looking for a profit too and there is nothing wrong with that. Wanting to make money is not the problem with gaming today, that is perfectly natural. The problem with gaming today is that gaming companies have changed their culture to one of profit before quality of game. You used to make a great game and get a great profit, now you release something like Bless (where are we now 3 versions?), FO76, Anthem take the money and maybe make them into a good game down the line.

    If you want more evidence of this change in culture look at the directors of gaming companies. Virtually none of them has any sort of gaming background, some like the former head of EA even crowed about the changes they were going to make to EA, putting accounting before creativity.

    So profit is good, as long as you give the consumer a good product.
    Perhaps if consumers didn't throw money at bad games executives might be encouraged to focus more on creativity?

    I dunno, just a crazy thought which into my head.  ;)

    Naw, let's just make COD17 and kaching!

    Oh yeah, what was the OP about?

    Something about athletes being grateful that gaming executives are paying Visionary realms too much so we should throw stones at rich people?  

    I say, throw away man, throw away!

     :D 
    MrMelGibsonHatefullOG_Zorvan

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,284
    edited May 2019
    I have no sympathy for those that choose to go down this path (and I do have optimism for Pantheon). The difference between working for a company on a project and relying on others via crowdfunding is the company gives you a budget/deadline and you have to make do with it. If you can't, you're either demoted/fired etc and that's that.

    Crowdfunding is different simply because you can extract as much as you can plus there is no real timeframe. Its not outside the realm of reasoning that those who actually give money want to know what is going on with it especially if the individuals involved are wanting more. Structure exists for a reason, and yes sometimes structure and creativity can conflict, but during those times it needs to be weighed what is most important. Keep in mind too that a lot of these crowdfunded mmos think they need to have the entire game built at launch without weighing what really can be implemented at a later date (just look at crowfall).
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,399
    I'm just glad they are making the game, in whatever fashion. Hopefully they will get it finished and I will get to play it.
    blamo2000

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,370
    Crowdfunding is rarely and I mean very rarely about paying the developers. Many use it to pay for assets or audio or to add additional features. 
    Many use it as a tool to prove interest to secure real funding from actual investors. Crowdfunding is not nearly as grassroots as many would have you believe. For many projects crowdfunding has become a sort of digital business meeting to prove proof of concept. Not to actually pay for the project. 
    MrMelGibsonAmatheHatefullMadFrenchie

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    KyleranGdemamiblamo2000Nanfoodle

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,373
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    Hatefull

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    blamo2000

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 713
    Ventures used to look for investors. For some reason they now look for money with no expectation of a return. Not sure when this change happened.
    MendelOctagon7711
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,677
    rounner said:
    Ventures used to look for investors. For some reason they now look for money with no expectation of a return. Not sure when this change happened.
    When costs skyrocketed and consumer growth couldn’t keep up with that. Investors wanted to keep the same ROI and that became increasingly difficult, and worse, creatively stiffening due to low risks etc.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Mendel
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,218
    rounner said:
    Ventures used to look for investors. For some reason they now look for money with no expectation of a return. Not sure when this change happened.
    Iamir already said it but Ill simply.  Games that have investors are pressured to design for the latest fad of gaming.  Thats not what we want.
    blamo2000
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,879
    Sorry OP but you are a little off in your analogies.
    When you give money to a crowd funded game,they have NOT earned that money,not even one red cent.

    When your boss pays you at work,you have EARNED that money,ALL of it.

    When you give money to a CF game,you fully expect that money to go towards the game,i would never give money and figure,oh idc where it goes,he can take my money i entrusted to him and go on a vacation to the Bahamas.

    There is a lot more to the CF/KS idea than simply where the money goes.
    keyword>>ORGANIZED structured game design.I can simply point to Star Citizen,this is NOT the game that was advertised,the current version is one that made excuses to NOT be finished bu to allow continued funding,to acquire more money to design ideas,a game ON A WHIM,just WING IT as they go.



    Octagon7711

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,234
    lahnmir said:
    rounner said:
    Ventures used to look for investors. For some reason they now look for money with no expectation of a return. Not sure when this change happened.
    When costs skyrocketed and consumer growth couldn’t keep up with that. Investors wanted to keep the same ROI and that became increasingly difficult, and worse, creatively stiffening due to low risks etc.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Well, it's a little more complex.

    Investors wanted to make a 'safe' game, that was just like all the other successful games, but spend less money making it, using less talent to build it, in a less time, and yet expect it to be somehow more successful. 
    Hatefullsvann
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,182
    Kyleran said:
    Perhaps if consumers didn't throw money at bad games executives might be encouraged to focus more on creativity? 
    ...or perhaps those games aren't "bad" if people keep throwing money on them.

    But hey again, why bother with logic when you can just spout out some nonsense...
    parrotpholkUngoodHatefullKyleran
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,310
    Crowdfunding is rarely and I mean very rarely about paying the developers. Many use it to pay for assets or audio or to add additional features. 
    Many use it as a tool to prove interest to secure real funding from actual investors. Crowdfunding is not nearly as grassroots as many would have you believe. For many projects crowdfunding has become a sort of digital business meeting to prove proof of concept. Not to actually pay for the project. 
    I had this thought running through my head for a while now. From a purely business standpoint, what a great way to gauge how well your game will be received. From a consumer standpoint, it could be a bit annoying if the game you "invested" in never sees the light of day.

    svann said:
    rounner said:
    Ventures used to look for investors. For some reason they now look for money with no expectation of a return. Not sure when this change happened.
    Iamir already said it but Ill simply.  Games that have investors are pressured to design for the latest fad of gaming.  Thats not what we want.
    Exactly, however as I pointed out in a different thread, we (the forum users) are a very small piece of an already tiny piece of the gaming world. 

    There are people out there that can't wait for the yearly sports games to drop, the bi-yearly Shooters to drop. Like clockwork, they line up to pay for these games and they really do not care at all how "good" or "bad" their game is they just want their game, and it makes studios millions. That is what investors, stockholders, and ultimately development studios want. Profit. MMORPGS just do not pull in the profit other genre's of gaming do not even close.

    We, on the other hand, want new and innovation, most of us are sick of playing WoW in a different package. We want all the bang but we do not put up the buck, our genre of gaming is just not that profitable which is why I try to support indy Devs when I feel like they might actually get something off the ground, but all I have seen to date is very inexperienced Game devs, biting off far more than they can chew. I am very interested in seeing that statement being proven wrong.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,505
    wait a sec, pantheon?

    didn't the guy who ran the company for this game kinda vanish with the first kickstarter money?
    and... you go again? cool.
    svann

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 3,677
    Ungood said:
    lahnmir said:
    rounner said:
    Ventures used to look for investors. For some reason they now look for money with no expectation of a return. Not sure when this change happened.
    When costs skyrocketed and consumer growth couldn’t keep up with that. Investors wanted to keep the same ROI and that became increasingly difficult, and worse, creatively stiffening due to low risks etc.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Well, it's a little more complex.

    Investors wanted to make a 'safe' game, that was just like all the other successful games, but spend less money making it, using less talent to build it, in a less time, and yet expect it to be somehow more successful. 
    Although the ‘safe’ game principle is very true in the AAA space it is still a simple result of investors wanting to see that sweet ROI, you need to minimise the risks then. 

    The AA space however (the one above indie) has already been replaced largely by crowdfunding because the capital needed just to deliver these games is so much more then before that it is hardly possible for smaller companies to cough it up. Hell, one misstep can already spell doom for such a company, as we have seen time and again.

    I am not talking about BS promotional Kickstarters, or delivering proof of concept through crowdfunding etc. but actual developers and actual AA games. Like Geim Dawn, like Wasteland 2 etc. etc.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Ungood
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • XthosXthos Member UncommonPosts: 2,734
    Thane said:
    wait a sec, pantheon?

    didn't the guy who ran the company for this game kinda vanish with the first kickstarter money?
    and... you go again? cool.


    No, it failed, so the KS was basically canceled.  People should never give money that they aren't willing to lose, if things don't go well.  They have pledges on their website, and supposedly a angel investor if I remember correctly.  



    blamo2000
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 10,217
    Hatefull said:
    Crowdfunding is rarely and I mean very rarely about paying the developers. Many use it to pay for assets or audio or to add additional features. 
    Many use it as a tool to prove interest to secure real funding from actual investors. Crowdfunding is not nearly as grassroots as many would have you believe. For many projects crowdfunding has become a sort of digital business meeting to prove proof of concept. Not to actually pay for the project. 
    I had this thought running through my head for a while now. From a purely business standpoint, what a great way to gauge how well your game will be received. From a consumer standpoint, it could be a bit annoying if the game you "invested" in never sees the light of day.

    svann said:
    rounner said:
    Ventures used to look for investors. For some reason they now look for money with no expectation of a return. Not sure when this change happened.
    Iamir already said it but Ill simply.  Games that have investors are pressured to design for the latest fad of gaming.  Thats not what we want.
    Exactly, however as I pointed out in a different thread, we (the forum users) are a very small piece of an already tiny piece of the gaming world. 

    There are people out there that can't wait for the yearly sports games to drop, the bi-yearly Shooters to drop. Like clockwork, they line up to pay for these games and they really do not care at all how "good" or "bad" their game is they just want their game, and it makes studios millions. That is what investors, stockholders, and ultimately development studios want. Profit. MMORPGS just do not pull in the profit other genre's of gaming do not even close.

    We, on the other hand, want new and innovation, most of us are sick of playing WoW in a different package. We want all the bang but we do not put up the buck, our genre of gaming is just not that profitable which is why I try to support indy Devs when I feel like they might actually get something off the ground, but all I have seen to date is very inexperienced Game devs, biting off far more than they can chew. I am very interested in seeing that statement being proven wrong.
    Add in catering to the most fickle, petty, game bashing player base in gaming (especially those “give me more content” pve guys), it no wonder AAA are staying away.
    blamo2000
  • ElonMuskElonMusk Member UncommonPosts: 64
    Yea, no thanks. Make a great game and I'll buy it when it's FINISHED and RELEASED.
    gunklackerOctagon7711hamlathis
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    edited May 2019
    Wizardry said:
    Sorry OP but you are a little off in your analogies.
    When you give money to a crowd funded game,they have NOT earned that money,not even one red cent.

    When your boss pays you at work,you have EARNED that money,ALL of it.

    When you give money to a CF game,you fully expect that money to go towards the game,i would never give money and figure,oh idc where it goes,he can take my money i entrusted to him and go on a vacation to the Bahamas.

    There is a lot more to the CF/KS idea than simply where the money goes.
    keyword>>ORGANIZED structured game design.I can simply point to Star Citizen,this is NOT the game that was advertised,the current version is one that made excuses to NOT be finished bu to allow continued funding,to acquire more money to design ideas,a game ON A WHIM,just WING IT as they go.



    I could appriciate your post,  But think about it !...If they were doing it full time
    -Are they suppose to starve ?
    -How would they expect workers to come to work ?
    -Do they pay the workers and not themselves ?
    -What do they tell their wifes and family when they go 5 years without a pay check ?

    Arterius
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited May 2019
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    KyleranGdemamisvann

    image
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,841
    Hrimnir said:
    Kyleran said:
    Hrimnir said:
    It always amazes me how much people care about what other people do with their own money.
    Intentionally being obtuse?
    No.  I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what people do with their own money.

    It takes away people's agency.  You're basically saying (not you specifically) that people are incapable of assessing the risk, determining the value of their purchase, etc and so forth, and that some external entity (usually government) needs to make sure these people aren't "taken advantage" of.

    Now, i'm all for laws about having to be transparent and not literally try to swindle people, but as long as the company isn't hiding something intentionally for that purpose, then its frankly none of anyone's business what two independent parties choose to do with each other.

    Now, this is a different issue with children (which is a separate argument as to what defines a child in the sense of personal agency) and that would be under the purview of the government to regulate.

    Anyways, i'm ranting so i'll shutup now.
    In today's society, nothing occurs in a vacuum.

    You pay more for health insurance today (assuming you're from the U.S.) because an overwhelming number of Americans refuse to exercise and eat processed sugar 22 hours out of every day.  Your damn right I feel strongly they should put down the donut and pick up the dumbbell, because preventative care is vastly cheaper than treating type 2 diabetes.


    Consumer activity influences the market we all participate in.  As many here mention whenever we discuss these kinds of things: if people weren't buying in, companies wouldn't be pursuing these goals.
    I %100 agree with everything you say. The point that I am typing this while eating a huge piece of cake doesn't matter :D
    KyleranMadFrenchieKumapon
    Currently playing: Outer Worlds (Xbox One X)

    Currently Reading: Skaven Slayer (Gotrek and Felix Book 2)

    Currently Writing: Champions of Legend Book 1 (3rd Draft)

    Currently Watching: Oz (Season 4), Soprano's (Season 1)


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