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What Ever Happened To The F2P Cash Shop?

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited April 2019
    Gdemami said:
    Amathe said:
    Kind of reminds me of the ethos of the Iron Islands in Game of Thrones. Did you buy that necklace, or did you pay the iron price?
    ....it is more a reminder that some people can't make valid analogies, and probably have difficulties distinguishing the difference between reality and fantasy/fiction.
    ....this post itself being a reminder that you're an Edge Lord who constructs your own little reality with which you judge others.
    KyleranAmatheIselinGeezerGamerVermillion_RaventhalAlBQuirkyScotNilden

    image
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,940
    You guys actually read Gdemami's posts?
    IselinAlBQuirkyScotMadFrenchie
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    Hopefully we will get fewer subscription game failures in the future; conversions frequently make dire f2p games.  
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,167
    You guys actually read Gdemami's posts?
    Just for the lulz.
    MadFrenchieGeezerGamer

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,138
    laserit said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    The thing about this is I recall the Facebook games of yore. Talk about milking money. You do 2 to 3 activities then get to wait while your "activity bar" fills back up, usually a matter of days. OR, go spend a buck or two and get an insta-fill. Since those activities may take from 5 to 10 minutes, you get to buy those refills 6 times an hour, all at a buck or two a piece. Because of this experience, ALL cash shops feel the same to me.

    Face it, companies want your money. They will do anything and everything to get it. I prefer subs because that puts a cap on what they get, making them work harder to retain their players. Unfortunately, that's a win for the consumer and we all know businesses dislike that scenario :)
    The problem here, is that is was not a win for anyone.

    To use your facebook example, F2P games and Sub games use the same mechanics, they will put in artificial time sinks designed to slow you down, so you can't do too much too soon and complete the game too quickly. Both Systems apply this method.

    So, regardless if you are paying a sub or using an item mall, you still end up with a system where you do some activities and then you need to wait for your activity bar to fill back up, because both systems need to slow down how fast you can complete content to make you spend the most amount of time doing.

    The difference between a F2P game and a Sub, is the F2P game, the time sinks are designed to get you to spend money to bypass them, the Sub game the time sinks are designed to directly slow down your progress to keep you paying the sub.

    Explain to me how that is a win for anyone?

    In reality, The players lose in both cases due to artificial time sinks needing to be put in both systems.

    Just with the Sub, the company loses because the mechanic pisses people off and they quit.
    Which is the lesser evil?

    $15 vs ???  >:)
    A direct answer to this.. the ???

    Mainly because it makes it easier for a player to take breaks due to burn out, and allows players to control how much they spend.

    Which was hy F2P/Cash Shop games have become the norm. 

    While I may disagree with some of the antics and asshole moves that some games have done to fleeces their players, Cash Shops have proven to be overall better than a Sub based system.

    Personally, I rather B2P games, with no Sub, using Expansions and a Cash Shop to survive, this eliminates the delusion of "Free2Play".

    Because I really think that whole "Free2Play" advertisement, is where everything goes wrong.

    I could also get behind open ended trail play, with the full understanding that it is just a trial of the game, and that full game is still B2P.
    laseritChildoftheShadowsGdemamiVermillion_Raventhal
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077
    edited April 2019
    Scot said:
    Also we are told the proportion who pay is tiny, so you can under stand my puzzlement that we get so many comments about bad cash shops in F2P games and what people have paid. I have even done so myself a couple of times, anyone can get suckered in. So I recon one or maybe a few payments are far more common than players think, hence the poll. Lets see how many minnows are swimming with the whales.

    I doubt it's as small as these studios claim, otherwise the AAAs wouldn't feel the need to go there for their profits (at the risk of alienating their player base).

    They know just how addicting video games are, they know parents also don't watch their credit card spending very closely, either (remember publishers target the 15-22 year-old market because they're supported financially by mommy and daddy. And because they're most influenced by toy sales [the Nintendo marketing scheme since the 1990s]).

    Disposible income THEY want. Not the struggling student with $100,000 school loans they have to payback on their own.

    So that's more like marketing by publishers, so regulators don't go snooping around on backdoor gambling (which IS what loot boxes and cash shops with RNG loot became).

    I tested some of these games, and they're SMALL companies (some are resellers of exported games from China or Korea) with almost non-existent customer service even by email. I had a Chinese made game even steal my email address (I use throw away emails for such experiments, so know exactly what game resold the email, too), and sure enough they used it for a WoW account. Blizzard sent numerous warnings until they had enough and told them they were banned from WoW. They got an email address, but they couldn't get into the email account problem to appease Blizzard, either.

    Have you ever tried emailing Warframe on issues in the game? If you get a response in 2 WEEKS, you're doing well ... if they don't answer with a troll reply. Tencent owns Digital Extremes now, BTW.

    Make darn sure to use disposible emails with those companies.

    The video game industry today is exactly the symptom of a disease that once plagued the auto industry. Until consumers had enough of getting lemons and paying for the repairs (screwing customers both ways), and the "lemon laws" were passed to combat the exploitation. But it will take angry parents to do that, not 15-22 year-olds, though (as they too busy being addicted to those loot boxes even -- they don't pay afterall, right???).
    Scot
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,577
    The reason why things are the way they are in gaming today is we simply have many other choices....How many MMOs do they list on this site? More than 600 isn't it? While probably half of those are not very valid, they are still out there.....What if we had over 600 different cable companies in our area and some offered free service and you can pay for what you want?....Wouldn't many people like that?...At lest with cash shops you can choose what you want to buy...Whether it be a mount, a costume, added storage, whatever.....Sub games you basically pay $15 for the right to play the game and that's about it...many of them charge for extras too.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,033
    The reason why things are the way they are in gaming today is we simply have many other choices....How many MMOs do they list on this site? More than 600 isn't it? While probably half of those are not very valid, they are still out there.....What if we had over 600 different cable companies in our area and some offered free service and you can pay for what you want?....Wouldn't many people like that?...At lest with cash shops you can choose what you want to buy...Whether it be a mount, a costume, added storage, whatever.....Sub games you basically pay $15 for the right to play the game and that's about it...many of them charge for extras too.
    Oversupply has been a big factor for ages, it is just not the only one.




    The video game industry today is exactly the symptom of a disease that once plagued the auto industry. Until consumers had enough of getting lemons and paying for the repairs (screwing customers both ways), and the "lemon laws" were passed to combat the exploitation. But it will take angry parents to do that, not 15-22 year-olds, though (as they too busy being addicted to those loot boxes even -- they don't pay afterall, right???).

    The Lemon laws are a fair analogy, once gaming went digital sometimes we have had to put up with the most appalling half finished games being launched.

    I do put a lot of this at the doorstep of new players, teenagers don't have the gaming experience we do that things can be done a fairer way. But as children they are being fed loot box and gambling culture as toys and they would be hard pressed to find a fair MMORPG even if they were looking for one. So what chance do they have of realising what a con gaming has become?

    GdemamiAlBQuirkyKevyne-Shandris

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,815
    Kyleran said:
    You guys actually read Gdemami's posts?
    Just for the lulz.
    He's the only person who reads factual posts and posts a "LOL" to them because he doesn't agree with the facts.........***scratches head***
    KyleranNildenAlBQuirkyScotpeanutabc
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    The reason why things are the way they are in gaming today is we simply have many other choices....How many MMOs do they list on this site? More than 600 isn't it? While probably half of those are not very valid, they are still out there.....What if we had over 600 different cable companies in our area and some offered free service and you can pay for what you want?....Wouldn't many people like that?...At lest with cash shops you can choose what you want to buy...Whether it be a mount, a costume, added storage, whatever.....Sub games you basically pay $15 for the right to play the game and that's about it...many of them charge for extras too.
    Indeed about 600 and most are kind of alike. Just a feeling :smile:
    Kyleran
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077
    A heads up folks what the AAA company named Activision-Blizzard is doing with this itemization=monetization scheme they're doing.

    New discovery...

    Blizzard has been trying to nerf/get rid of the Water Strider. But we all thought it was due to water walking. The Water Strider is in fact a 2 stat mount, it offers fall reduction too (just like the Panderian 1/2 fall damage racial).

    That's WHY the mount couldn't be used in PvP zones, either.

    Blizzard out of nowhere NOW decides we need equipment slots on our mounts. They operate just like gemming does -- once socketed you can't get it redeemed again as it's destroyed (sweet monetization there, huh?).

    They want EVERY toon to have individual slots, no more BoA (account wide benefits). Even more items to buy for your 50 characters PER account (it's gold now. Who knows what it will be PER expansion)?

    Back to the Water Strider. The equipment slot system is only 1 slot (for now). The Water Strider has 2 abilities though (one known and one we just found out). Blizzard is trying to slide us the water walking shoes only, meanwhile taking back the fall reduction.

    Dirty long-term game they're playing. Taking back what we already had for years, and effectively killing what they wanted dead in WoD. Then making us PAY for the privilege.

    Very passive-aggressive behavior from a studio, too.

    You can't call Blizzard a liar if they don't mention what a mount really has as abilities, so I can't call them liars. But they sure are short on information.

    If you still play WoW, get your mounts out and see if they have another ability like fall reduction or any other undocumented feature. Post about it in that thread. Because THAT is what's going to be removed in the "new" equipment slot scheme.
    ScotGdemami
  • RobokappRobokapp Member RarePosts: 6,207
    AlBQuirky said:
    Robokapp said:
    i stopped coming here and posting almost entirely...but yes i remember the cash shop debates of 2009. 
    Good to see you again! The debates haven't changed much, but the games' monetization have, moving to about 90% F2P and 99% with cash shops (I'm sure there's one MMO without a cash shop out there...) :)

    PS: How is your game coming along? Sorry, but I haven't been following it.
    i don't think you got the right person...to my knowledge i wasnt making a game. :( 

    image

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,158
    Robokapp said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Robokapp said:
    i stopped coming here and posting almost entirely...but yes i remember the cash shop debates of 2009. 
    Good to see you again! The debates haven't changed much, but the games' monetization have, moving to about 90% F2P and 99% with cash shops (I'm sure there's one MMO without a cash shop out there...) :)

    PS: How is your game coming along? Sorry, but I haven't been following it.
    i don't think you got the right person...to my knowledge i wasnt making a game. :( 
    Dang! There goes my memory another notch down the tubes. Sorry for that mix-up, but good to see you anyway :)
    Robokapp

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,033
    A heads up folks what the AAA company named Activision-Blizzard is doing with this itemization=monetization scheme they're doing.

    New discovery...

    Blizzard has been trying to nerf/get rid of the Water Strider. But we all thought it was due to water walking. The Water Strider is in fact a 2 stat mount, it offers fall reduction too (just like the Panderian 1/2 fall damage racial).

    That's WHY the mount couldn't be used in PvP zones, either.

    Blizzard out of nowhere NOW decides we need equipment slots on our mounts. They operate just like gemming does -- once socketed you can't get it redeemed again as it's destroyed (sweet monetization there, huh?).

    They want EVERY toon to have individual slots, no more BoA (account wide benefits). Even more items to buy for your 50 characters PER account (it's gold now. Who knows what it will be PER expansion)?

    Back to the Water Strider. The equipment slot system is only 1 slot (for now). The Water Strider has 2 abilities though (one known and one we just found out). Blizzard is trying to slide us the water walking shoes only, meanwhile taking back the fall reduction.

    Dirty long-term game they're playing. Taking back what we already had for years, and effectively killing what they wanted dead in WoD. Then making us PAY for the privilege.

    Very passive-aggressive behavior from a studio, too.

    You can't call Blizzard a liar if they don't mention what a mount really has as abilities, so I can't call them liars. But they sure are short on information.

    If you still play WoW, get your mounts out and see if they have another ability like fall reduction or any other undocumented feature. Post about it in that thread. Because THAT is what's going to be removed in the "new" equipment slot scheme.
    Monetarization changes are never ending on the journey to a GaaS, which in turn I just see as a pit stop in the evolution of worst practise we have seen since cash shops began. It won't stop at GaaS.

    For a MMORPG like WoW which started subscription only and set up many systems on the basis of that model, the move to ever more monetarization is going to be quite jarring. 
    Gdemami

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  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Member UncommonPosts: 2,077
    edited April 2019
    Scot said:
    Monetarization changes are never ending on the journey to a GaaS, which in turn I just see as a pit stop in the evolution of worst practise we have seen since cash shops began. It won't stop at GaaS.

    For a MMORPG like WoW which started subscription only and set up many systems on the basis of that model, the move to ever more monetarization is going to be quite jarring. 

    If you haven't followed this, watch the video.

    The one link in all of it is Tencent (who's buying up studios). Tencent owned studios have a particular way they moderate forums with weird LONG ban notices on their forums (in Warframe people go nuts seeing bans until 2035. Yesterday, I checked the WoW forums [I've been banned there since the Diablo RMAH mayhem days] and sure enough the SAME ban date scheme is used. It shows 2999 [they hate me, as I don't take BS and told them so]).

    It didn't even exist a couple days ago, it does now.

    Watch (Belluar is one of the few YouTube game commentators who's "fair", not pro and not anti)...

    ScotGdemami
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,346
    Most f2p games I played.  I spent much more than I do in subscription.

    That being said for GW2, I barely spend any money.  So it is actually cheaper(for me) to play a game like GW2.


    Scot
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    AAAMEOW said:
    Most f2p games I played.  I spent much more than I do in subscription.

    That being said for GW2, I barely spend any money.  So it is actually cheaper(for me) to play a game like GW2.


    So F2P works :) As GW2, I suppose the reason is that gameplay is completely pointless, they removed any long term competition and need of cooperation. Also it lacks that sex, anime, costume contest in BDO. So why should you buy anything?
  • TierlessTierless ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,377
    Kyleran said:
    What happened is they discovered the market would bear a great deal more than they thought possible, so they started to test just how much weight would be tolerated.

    Essentially, if they buy it more will come. So they did, and so it has. Classic vicious circle.

    So long as consumers support this expansion trend it will continue.
    Long ago and far away when MMOs began incorporating cash shops people would often decry no matter how benign it was a slippery slope which once started down there would be no going back.

    How right they were, but the analogy implies gamers sliding downhill with little to no control which isn't really accurate.

    @TimEisen once wrote there was no monetization "hill" gamers weren't willing to climb, and I think its been proven many willingly embrace the different ways developers have found to separate them from their cash.

    Indeed, we've never met a pay-wall we couldn't scale! 
    But not all men seek rest and peace; some are born with the spirit of the storm in their blood, restless harbingers, knowing no other path.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 13,033
    edited April 2019
    TimEisen said:
    Kyleran said:
    What happened is they discovered the market would bear a great deal more than they thought possible, so they started to test just how much weight would be tolerated.

    Essentially, if they buy it more will come. So they did, and so it has. Classic vicious circle.

    So long as consumers support this expansion trend it will continue.
    Long ago and far away when MMOs began incorporating cash shops people would often decry no matter how benign it was a slippery slope which once started down there would be no going back.

    How right they were, but the analogy implies gamers sliding downhill with little to no control which isn't really accurate.

    @TimEisen once wrote there was no monetization "hill" gamers weren't willing to climb, and I think its been proven many willingly embrace the different ways developers have found to separate them from their cash.

    Indeed, we've never met a pay-wall we couldn't scale! 
    A wonderful testament to human nature, but then us humans can be flawed. That's where regulation (both parents and governments) should step in. For gaming I would point the finger at the gambling elements and the age kids get to play even when underage for the games rating.

    Not saying that would be a magic bullet, but it would sure help.
    Gdemami

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