What Could Be "New & Innovative" In An MMORPG?

AlBQuirky

As I read through "The Pub" here, I see a lot posts about how the MMO genre is stale, how it needs a shot of innovation. One such post (I hope you don't mind me using this to kick off another thread, @Pher0cious):

Pher0cious said:

Blizzard's time has passed. Maybe a Witcher MMO by CD Projekt RED, if they can replicate what blizzard did in 2004. It can't be a classic mmo formula. It needs to be new and innovative. 

leads me to ask, What could be made innovative?

How innovative can combat be made? (It's the number one activity in MMOs today.)
How innovative can raiding be made? (End game combat.)
How innovative can crafting be made?
How innovative can exploration be made?

Or do we just need new and innovative activities?

What specifically do posters imagine when they say "New & Innovative?" Easy words to say/type, but more difficult to pin down exactly what they imagine. I'm curious to see what people mean when they say the phrase, "New and Innovative."

Amathe

I don't want to reinvent the genre with each new game. Just little improvements. Tweaks to graphics. A fresh set of bad guys to beat on. New places and people to see. Some cool new clothes. And I'm good. 

AlBQuirky

Amathe said:

I don't want to reinvent the genre with each new game. Just little improvements. Tweaks to graphics. A fresh set of bad guys to beat on. New places and people to see. Some cool new clothes. And I'm good. 

In agreement here, and maybe a couple of "Quality of Life" improvements?

I read that phrase and wonder how many different ways can one swing a sword or shoot a gun? Or combine part a with part b and make item z?

I'm curious to see what people mean when they say, "New and Innovative."

Vermillion_Raventhal

I need a strong base of sandbox and some horizontal progression. 

Can't take quest leveling or mob leveling.  Just as well play MMO lite without the bullshit that comes with MMORPG.  Give me class quest to gain abilities.

I want to see development of procedural questing.

Large world with strong town building tools.  Not just plopping houses.

rodarin

Crafting and economy are two things no one has ever gotten completely right.

As in its either too many people can do the same thing or that end game items sell for less than their components/raw materials. Usually both.


There isnt a single MMO that I can think of where raw mats and just grinding shit isnt more profitable than actually being able to make and sell something made from them.

Any developer that can figure that out will be the first.

And the only way to do it is to have some sort of extremely in depth first come first serve type crafting system with  a hundred or more different skins/designs and/or traits to accommodate all the people specializing in a particular crafting area. But they would also have to figure out how to make every one of those styles or designs or traits relevant. Which would also depend on their combat and 'build' systems. If some guy specializes in clown style fudge factory trait more than likely no one is going to want to buy it anyway. (other than collectors who might want to collect from every style combination and/or grand master (or whatever) weapon or armor maker there is) So figuring out how to make clown style with a fudge factory trait worth having on a weapon would be necessary as well.

Which also goes hand and hand with economy. Figuring out gold sinks in conjunction with gold faucets is another big one not many have figured out. A few have but then they broke it when they started getting too casual friendly.

but in the end the biggest thing any MMO has to figure out is time versus whatever. Trying to keep the equilibrium between 'no lifers' who can play 20 hours a day and those with lives who might only play 4 or 5 hours a week. WoW sort of did it with time locks and gated raids. But even that wasnt the best system. As their raiding system also created a sub sector of 'elitism'. 

Some games have done some systems extremely well. I made a list not too long ago. On what I thought the best options for each thing I listed were. Any developer could look at these games and jot down a similar list and then try and put it into their game. Assuming no copyright stuff (which I doubt exists in most cases).

Lotro music system (player made music) with all the instruments and the add ons that let people play alone or even in a band. Extremely cool. A must have for any MMO that is serious about RPG and having things a community can do other than 'raiding' or PvP . Lotros phased progression was OK but I am sure a better system could be put in place now. Where you find abandoned ruins and through quests or deeds you can rebuild it. Can be on a personal level or even server wide.

MMMOs havent even scratched the surface of how in depth and awesome they can be. Even games like the Witcher and Fall out and any other extremely in depth RPG made into an MMO still could be improved. We see that with mods and add ons for those games all the time, and even those are limited in a lot of ways.

So while MMOs are dead they died before they even got out of infancy basically.

4507

For me, it's less about the systems themselves and more about how the design fits them together to create the game as a whole. You could have a next-generation VR combat system but if it's still just used to bash trash mobs until starting an endless gear treadmill, I'd still call it uninnovative. 

Amathe

Oh, and on the subject of clothes, I want this. I have been wanting it for quite some time and can't get it:

sunandshadow

I'd like to see more development of factions into a dating-sim-like system which allowed players to collect copies of NPCs to their personal housing.

iixviiiix

We hit technology wall dudes , so there are no "New & Innovative" for the mass until we manage to break that wall .

Well , if you willing to pay $ millions then it's difference story .

FlyByKnight

A good game that doesn't f#$% it all up by doing the whole F2P, P2W thing would be innovative enough at this point.

Thane

DMKano said:

iixviiiix said:

We hit technology wall dudes , so there are no "New & Innovative" for the mass until we manage to break that wall .

Well , if you willing to pay $ millions then it's difference story .

I agree - I would love to see a game that fully simulates physical laws.

I mean stuff like mass and inertia and realistic damage to soft tissue, realistic metal deformation like plate armor being struck hard with a war hammer. Etc...

Realistic material interaction and thrown object trajectories 

Would be so much fun to try to land that 1 in a million shot and hit the cyclops in the eye with an arrow that has a real trajectory etc...


Moving away from simple RPG die roll systems to complex math algorithms that would simulate real life laws

have you seen the destruction vids of star citizen?

where they run over that ship with the MG? sucks this game will be impossible to do without pw2 at this point i guess (well, actually it is pay 2 develop, and i don't think you can balance all that spend money on ships anymore)

learis1

1. Leveling: The idea that a bar fills up as I kill mobs repeatedly feels a little outdated. Leveling can be made more meaningful. Maybe filling up a bar is only one required aspect to gaining a level. Another aspect could be accomplishing certain milestone quests or defeating certain specific tough mobs/bosses/challenges in order to finally level (your level bar is at the top, but you must complete the milestone to level). Maybe every 10 levels you have to do this milestone, and upon success you gain access to some powerful new game-changing abilities/stats for accomplishing it.

This would make leveling feel more meaningful rather than just a number going up from grinding mobs. It would feel more believable that your character really has grown and become stronger. Also, the idea that level is expressed through a number feels outdated to me. I feel like titles could be a new more interesting way to express "level". ex) Noob Sephiroth19384 has grown to become Journeyman Sephiroth19384 !!!

2. Unique builds: The toughest thing with mmo's imo is balancing skill uniqueness/customization with overall balance. Even when tons of customization is given, skill builds always devolve into the best cookie cutter builds. In solo games, you don't have to compete with others so there's more room for unique builds, but it's the opposite for mmo's. I don't have a solution for this, but if someone develops a way to have tons of customization for skills while also having good balance, then this would be a game changer.

Wizardry

Oh man,the ideas are endless,i could take ANY stale idea you see in games and change it to be more in depth,more engaging and more immersive than what we have presently which is basically the same stale ideas from 1990.
I do a LOT of reading,a lot of listening/watching people in this industry work and i draw a conclusion based off all of it.The dude on this masquerade reveal kind of pointed to it and is one of the reasons the industry is stale.He mentions that before you start you have to have a workable foundation that has room for error and change.There lies the problem because the "foundations"that we have to draw from are almost identical from game to game,so every NEW game that starts up uses the exact same foundation.

Then these devs look for people related to their work,also evident in this Masquerade reveal,they brought back some people from the past venture ,making it easier to all have the same vision however his can also mean LESS creativity.

people in this thread can list sections of game development to change which imop is EVERYTHING but nobody including myself could properly explain design ideas,it takes a lot of work and thought and description.A GOOD producer also needs to run ideas by other qualified people to get feedback BEFORE anything starts.Perhaps yet ANOTHER problem area because often a Producer is brought on AFTER the ideas are already in place.

Thane

Wizardry said:

Oh man,the ideas are endless,i could take ANY stale idea you see in games and change it to be more in depth,more engaging and more immersive than what we have presently which is basically the same stale ideas from 1990.
I do a LOT of reading,a lot of listening/watching people in this industry work and i draw a conclusion based off all of it.The dude on this masquerade reveal kind of pointed to it and is one of the reasons the industry is stale.He mentions that before you start you have to have a workable foundation that has room for error and change.There lies the problem because the "foundations"that we have to draw from are almost identical from game to game,so every NEW game that starts up uses the exact same foundation.

Then these devs look for people related to their work,also evident in this Masquerade reveal,they brought back some people from the past venture ,making it easier to all have the same vision however his can also mean LESS creativity.

people in this thread can list sections of game development to change which imop is EVERYTHING but nobody including myself could properly explain design ideas,it takes a lot of work and thought and description.A GOOD producer also needs to run ideas by other qualified people to get feedback BEFORE anything starts.Perhaps yet ANOTHER problem area because often a Producer is brought on AFTER the ideas are already in place.

well, i'd say let the devs do their work again and don't release games before they are done.
EA is a prime example of that, fucking games over since WAR.

Wizardry

Basically what i am saying is game design right now and pretty much always has not been setup properly from day 1.The STRUCTURE how game design works needs imo to follow a specific route.

What often happens is you have the MONEY people,like a CEO of a business or investors all the input from likely all the wrong people.Example Blizzard wants to make a new game,1-2 people at the top get together and decide what direction.They decide ok the Battle Royale market is open,we don't have a game there so let's make one.

You see that just encourages a flooded market of copy cat games and NO CARE for designing a passionate game,one you want to play yourself but is only targeting a market.

4507

learis1 said:

Also, the idea that level is expressed through a number feels outdated to me. I feel like titles could be a new more interesting way to express "level". ex) Noob Sephiroth19384 has grown to become Journeyman Sephiroth19384 !!!

I really like this idea. Having 9-10 different titles or, perhaps more accurately, power descriptions, would make progression feel far less 'gamey', at least to me.

Cryomatrix

A world that can be really changed and multiple servers accommodating other people needs 

Akulas

Fight from the monsters point of view. Don't make raiding end game. Do community crafting. That's different than the norm.

Bloodaxes

I wouldn't mind a PVE focused sandbox/sandbox-lite mmorpg, with progression done runescape style.

Also, another thing I rarely see is the necessity of jumping. How come all the land/dungeons is magically navigable? Why can't there be sections where you'd have options on how to progress? Say; building a bridge, platforming, climbing and whatnot.

To me, some games don't portray realistic scenarios just to make them easier for the user to experience. Which in turn (for me) makes them less suspenseful and memorable. 

blamo2000

In 2019?  Putting rpg elements like a decent character progression system and solid rpg mechanics in the game that appeal to rpg fans, instead of pandering to children and people that would prefer an mmo instead of an rpg.

Also, labeling accurately would be very new and innovative.

AlBQuirky

learis1 said:

1. Leveling: The idea that a bar fills up as I kill mobs repeatedly feels a little outdated. Leveling can be made more meaningful. Maybe filling up a bar is only one required aspect to gaining a level. Another aspect could be accomplishing certain milestone quests or defeating certain specific tough mobs/bosses/challenges in order to finally level (your level bar is at the top, but you must complete the milestone to level). Maybe every 10 levels you have to do this milestone, and upon success you gain access to some powerful new game-changing abilities/stats for accomplishing it.

This would make leveling feel more meaningful rather than just a number going up from grinding mobs. It would feel more believable that your character really has grown and become stronger. Also, the idea that level is expressed through a number feels outdated to me. I feel like titles could be a new more interesting way to express "level". ex) Noob Sephiroth19384 has grown to become Journeyman Sephiroth19384 !!!

2. Unique builds: The toughest thing with mmo's imo is balancing skill uniqueness/customization with overall balance. Even when tons of customization is given, skill builds always devolve into the best cookie cutter builds. In solo games, you don't have to compete with others so there's more room for unique builds, but it's the opposite for mmo's. I don't have a solution for this, but if someone develops a way to have tons of customization for skills while also having good balance, then this would be a game changer.

Leveling has always confounded me. Why, all of a sudden, did all of my skills get better when I never used half of them? Why did this spell suddenly pop into my head? How come I know how to do something I've never done before, without any instructions at all? Even in many tabletop RPGs this is often the case. I'm not sure what work to improve this.

Unique builds is a tricky one, I agree. The cookie-cutter/flavor of the month builds are the players gaming the system. If a game "balances everything out", then the vanilla blandness creeps in. A Cleric or Doctor should be he best healers. A Warrior should be the best general melee character. When you start trying to balance everything, your system loses all flavor, in my opinion. It's what has happened in the classless games today.

I'm a proponent of classes and differences, by the way

AlBQuirky

4507 said:

learis1 said:

Also, the idea that level is expressed through a number feels outdated to me. I feel like titles could be a new more interesting way to express "level". ex) Noob Sephiroth19384 has grown to become Journeyman Sephiroth19384 !!!

I really like this idea. Having 9-10 different titles or, perhaps more accurately, power descriptions, would make progression feel far less 'gamey', at least to me.

When I played EQ, some would introduce themselves with a "title", like bard of the 4th chorus, or priest of the 5th circle

AlBQuirky

Cryomatrix said:

A world that can be really changed and multiple servers accommodating other people needs 

Change how?

I've seen this a few times and wonder, how does a world change with hundreds or thousands of players exerting their force upon it, sometimes simultaneously? EQ Next, with its voxels boasted such, but no one (any?) ever played that system, unless EQ Next: Landmark (the player creation part that many took part in) showed a bit of that.

Or you looking more at things like politics and nation/area relations?

I'm not poo-pooing the ideas. I'm genuinely curious how it would work with "massive" amounts of players without massive abuse

4507

AlBQuirky said:

Cryomatrix said:

A world that can be really changed and multiple servers accommodating other people needs 

Change how?

I've seen this a few times and wonder, how does a world change with hundreds or thousands of players exerting their force upon it, sometimes simultaneously? EQ Next, with its voxels boasted such, but no one (any?) ever played that system, unless EQ Next: Landmark (the player creation part that many took part in) showed a bit of that.

Or you looking more at things like politics and nation/area relations?

I'm not poo-pooing the ideas. I'm genuinely curious how it would work with "massive" amounts of players without massive abuse

I can't speak for Cryomatrix, but I usually envision change as things like open-world persistent construction (not just housing - walls, castles, bridges, aqueducts, even entire towns), environmental reactiveness (e.g. if wolves are hunted too frequently by the player population, they will become rarer in the wild), and mobs that dynamically spawn but stay dead (e.g. a dragon spawns on the top of a mountain and steals the surrounding farms' livestock for food until a player slays it, or a viking raid arrives on the coast and ransacks the nearby towns until it is defeated).

AlBQuirky

4507 said:

AlBQuirky said:

Cryomatrix said:

A world that can be really changed and multiple servers accommodating other people needs 

Change how?

I've seen this a few times and wonder, how does a world change with hundreds or thousands of players exerting their force upon it, sometimes simultaneously? EQ Next, with its voxels boasted such, but no one (any?) ever played that system, unless EQ Next: Landmark (the player creation part that many took part in) showed a bit of that.

Or you looking more at things like politics and nation/area relations?

I'm not poo-pooing the ideas. I'm genuinely curious how it would work with "massive" amounts of players without massive abuse

I can't speak for Cryomatrix, but I usually envision change as things like open-world persistent construction (not just housing - walls, castles, bridges, aqueducts, even entire towns), environmental reactiveness (e.g. if wolves are hunted too frequently by the player population, they will become rarer in the wild), and mobs that dynamically spawn but stay dead (e.g. a dragon spawns on the top of a mountain and steals the surrounding farms' livestock for food until a player slays it, or a viking raid arrives on the coast and ransacks the nearby towns until it is defeated).

Cool clarifications. Thanks. That makes sense to me

(I especially like the Dragon and Vikings scenarios )

Mendel

AlBQuirky said:

As I read through "The Pub" here, I see a lot posts about how the MMO genre is stale, how it needs a shot of innovation. One such post (I hope you don't mind me using this to kick off another thread, @Pher0cious):

Pher0cious said:

Blizzard's time has passed. Maybe a Witcher MMO by CD Projekt RED, if they can replicate what blizzard did in 2004. It can't be a classic mmo formula. It needs to be new and innovative. 

leads me to ask, What could be made innovative?

How innovative can combat be made? (It's the number one activity in MMOs today.)
How innovative can raiding be made? (End game combat.)
How innovative can crafting be made?
How innovative can exploration be made?

Or do we just need new and innovative activities?

What specifically do posters imagine when they say "New & Innovative?" Easy words to say/type, but more difficult to pin down exactly what they imagine. I'm curious to see what people mean when they say the phrase, "New and Innovative."

Why is the genre of MMORPGs defined as combat and crafting?  What about other aspects of life and society?  Like politics or religions?  Allow players to take elected roles in the world, with different decisions.  The mayor of a town may have to decide to spend their budget on a new wall, or hiring two extra guards.  The mayor might also have to negotiate with others (player and NPC representatives) to change the tax rates.  The head priest might have decide to budget for special festivals to occasionally bolster the residents' morale, or spend to help individuals in the district.

Not everything that is role-playing can be defined by a sword.