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World of Warcraft: Classic Will be Split Into Six Phases Starting with Onyxia & Molten Core - MMORPG

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,656
    If releasing all the content on the server at once breaks their progression system then that system will be in a broken stat at the last patch release.  So what happens to the game when all content is released? Does it instantly become broken because that's the unsaid implication behind your point? How is it going to overcome that elephant in the room no one ever talks about; why we have expansions in the first place.

    I'm confused, first you said WoW isn't about raiding and that misses the point of classic, but then in your second post you fallback to using raid progression as the reason why content releases need to be timed. To paraphrase, newer content invalidates older stuff. So which way is it? It sounds to me that you see raiding as a very important part of classic that releases need to cater to. If anything releasing all content at once would backseat raiding and make crafting and dungeons a primary gear source, until level cap when everyone starts asking "what next".

    I'm not saying this all can't work in some way, but I am saying that these difficult questions should be tackled or mistakes will be repeated. These server reboot projects and upcoming indie MMOs never seem to tackle these things. They're trying the same tired tactics and time sinks to try and keep people playing. If it didn't work then how is it going to work now unless those speed bumps are accounted for. 

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  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602
    Tamanous said:
    Torval said:
    Tamanous said:
    Torval said:
    It sounds like they're trying to replicate the release experience and not just the server. I think that's a mistake. It's purely for time sink purposes, but maybe people won't care. I think it's a risk because a lot of people are going to burn out on "classic" mechanics and it's better to keep them going for as long as possible rather than expect them to return for a patch. They won't, or rather a smaller percentage will return each patch.

    If the server is popular enough to justify the expense, they should take off with the idea of adding future content with the vanilla level cap in place. Even then it's risky. It's no longer classic. It's modified, which is just what xpacs are, modified vanilla game. Whatever they do when people get bored and restless, they should consider what they add and change carefully. Taking things away doesn't work and you can't "undo" big changes without freaking players out.
    I do not for a second believe they are trying to replicate the pure experience personally.  I think they have run out of time and do not have the rest of the content ready to go.  There is zero reason to not release the server complete and put it in maintenance mode then move the team to the live game or other projects.

    I do wonder what they time gate will look like for each release.  Grinding was the quicker way to level back then but even grinding took hunters somewhere around 9 days played to get to 60.  The raids will also play differently than what people have grown accustomed to over time so unless you ran them back in the day, they will take longer to clear as well due to attunements to enter plus grinding out fire resist sets for MC or nature for initial AQ runs.  I will be very interested how they do this but still think they have just run out of time.
    Umm, you both are completely wrong.

    Progressive content is how private servers do it. Why? Because it reflects the content progression of original Classic. CONTENT ... OVER ... TIME.

    You CAN'T put all content out at once. It has absolutely nothing to do with what has been completed or not. The game does not function if you put all gated, tiered content in the game at launch. Classic is NOT just a raiding game. That's it's entire draw.



    I think we're saying the same thing, they're trying to replicate the original progression sequence as close as they can. I never said anything about the raiding game though. Anyway, I think staged releases are a mistake. Maybe it's not a big one. LotRO is doing the same thing and there are drawbacks to the approach, trying to keep people on the same page and normalizing progression. It can suck the momentum out of playing.
    Then I don't understand the alternative you want. 

    You want all content to be out so hardcore progression groups can do all content initially? That is the most destructive thing I could imagine for Classic Wow. The pre-BIS balance must be maintained or it trivializes raiding if better gear enters the game too early. Balance in pvp must be maintained (as far as access to gear goes).

    Perhaps I don't understand how you actually want content accessibility. The content progression will be a lot faster than historically. This has already been revealed. A couple patches will be pushed based on the average player progression per server likely though. I hope it's not done over all servers at the same time, although I can see why they may still do that.
    Why not have the progression guilds blaze through?

    This is not a new game but a classic or as close to classic as possible server for a game with live servers.  The hardcore will blaze though and go back to live anyway so why does it matter.  This is a game that already existed in this form so who cares about server firsts or any of that.  This is for the nostalgia crowd who wanted this for years.

    There will already be a finite amount of content on the server so even the most casual will be done in 6-12 months anyway.  This is assuming you can get 39 of your closest friends together to tackle the raid content anyway.  The progression will not be as quick as you think.

    And WOW will never ever be balanced around PVP.  Most PVP players will be in battlegrounds grinding out grand marshall or whatever the title was.  It will also be like it was back then with twinks ruling the battleground scene anyway.
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    edited March 11
    It's because Classic is a game where every system in the game is interconnected. This is called old school MMORPG design. The primary world, question and dungeon game play for Wow was designed before raiding even entered the designers minds. This is why classes are more rock/paper/scissor than in any other time in Wow. It was a different design philosophy.

    If you release dungeon content too early, like Dire Maul, you release content in the game better than MC raid gear. You fuck up the planned progression.

    Nearly all content in game, from pvp gear, pre-Best in Slot raiding gear, Raiding gear itself, content gating mechanics, etc, is baked into the progression path.

    I'm starting to lose track of our points, but this is the gist of my mine for what it's worth.


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  • AoriAori Member EpicPosts: 4,160
    Phased release servers is something I've been asking for on the WoW forums for 6ish years. For me personally I can go through the experience again with a character I didn't play then. We didn't have alts like we do today back then. So I'm looking forward to trying the experience with a different class. 

    All I got around too back then was a max level Warrior, mid level hunter and Shaman. One of these classes was absolute trash at leveling, hint it is part of the reason tanks were so hard to find.
  • vtravivtravi Member UncommonPosts: 342
    I am now just starting leveling a Druid on a private server. I want to see if I can be a druid Tank. I hear that they are decent at 5 mans, which is all I really care about. If I raid I will switch to heals. So I will try it out before classic comes out. 
    mike32927
  • KickaxeKickaxe Member UncommonPosts: 157
    Tamanous said:
    It's because Classic is a game where every system in the game is interconnected. This is called old school MMORPG design. The primary world, question and dungeon game play for Wow was designed before raiding even entered the designers minds. This is why classes are more rock/paper/scissor than in any other time in Wow. It was a different design philosophy.

    If you release dungeon content too early, like Dire Maul, you release content in the game better than MC raid gear. You fuck up the planned progression.

    Nearly all content in game, from pvp gear, pre-Best in Slot raiding gear, Raiding gear itself, content gating mechanics, etc, is baked into the progression path.

    I'm starting to lose track of our points, but this is the gist of my mine for what it's worth.


    I feel like your pov on this is puzzling for similar reasons Blizzard's info drop here is puzzling: it seems to emphasize progression beyond reason in a game that ultimately for most of its future existence will be a static vanilla experience where progression, at least on a more global scale, is rendered meaningless.

    Admittedly, our understanding of Blizzard's final plans for Classic are likely deficient, and thus maybe we will soon see why this release schedule makes sense. But what you're stating in this thread suggests you have some insight into those plans some of us here lack, Tamanous.

    Do you foresee hard resets every cycle of full Vanilla content, or do you think that we will ultimately get the xpacs for Classic? Something else?

    Respectfully, Tamanous, I'm just not getting this progression thing cause it seems out of step with just living in the virtual world of vanilla WoW, which is I guess what many of us thought was the primary goal of getting vanilla back.
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    edited March 12
    Kickaxe said:
    Tamanous said:
    It's because Classic is a game where every system in the game is interconnected. This is called old school MMORPG design. The primary world, question and dungeon game play for Wow was designed before raiding even entered the designers minds. This is why classes are more rock/paper/scissor than in any other time in Wow. It was a different design philosophy.

    If you release dungeon content too early, like Dire Maul, you release content in the game better than MC raid gear. You fuck up the planned progression.

    Nearly all content in game, from pvp gear, pre-Best in Slot raiding gear, Raiding gear itself, content gating mechanics, etc, is baked into the progression path.

    I'm starting to lose track of our points, but this is the gist of my mine for what it's worth.


    I feel like your pov on this is puzzling for similar reasons Blizzard's info drop here is puzzling: it seems to emphasize progression beyond reason in a game that ultimately for most of its future existence will be a static vanilla experience where progression, at least on a more global scale, is rendered meaningless.

    Admittedly, our understanding of Blizzard's final plans for Classic are likely deficient, and thus maybe we will soon see why this release schedule makes sense. But what you're stating in this thread suggests you have some insight into those plans some of us here lack, Tamanous.

    Do you foresee hard resets every cycle of full Vanilla content, or do you think that we will ultimately get the xpacs for Classic? Something else?

    Respectfully, Tamanous, I'm just not getting this progression thing cause it seems out of step with just living in the virtual world of vanilla WoW, which is I guess what many of us thought was the primary goal of getting vanilla back.
    I am largely references the fact that Blizzard is largely emulating what has been done on private servers. They have full private server metrics and feedback available to them as provided by the Nost team.

    The reality of running a Classic emulation is the combination of attempting to copy classical progression, because the entire scope of the game is built around this, while adapting to the true game play meta that arises from the very fact that Classic has massive differences from historic hosting of the game.

    What we are getting is a near stand alone product, that has clearly been proven by private servers to have a server life cycle. Eventually, once all content is pushed, servers start to die. This means server merging and fresh starts will occur. This is something Blizzard is aware of and planning for.

    Old servers that reach Naxx content, can eventually merge together for those still wanting to play content complete Classic. New servers will launch and be packed by those wanting to start again (this is a proven and sustainable model because ALL private server rely on this and still continue to be popular).

    If future expansions are made, players can choose to progress or stay in Classic. Blizzard may or may not ever make new content. We have to wait and see.

    People need to change their expectations of what Classic currently is. It's nothing more than a massive game, with massive content that is fully expected to be run through ... it just so happens this takes 1.5 years or more. The time line for Classic's progression will be faster than historical. This has already been stated. The gaps between content will be drastically reduced over historic.

    Now tell me, what current new game ever drops with 1.5+ years of already developed content? 

    I know a ton of non-private server players are following this game, but the reality is that Blizzard is using the private server model as their template. They are building the Classic business model based on why private servers even exist. They are pulling direct feedback from private server teams and players in order to build Classic (I'm not suggesting this is a primary or current source. It certainly was a big part of the initial source).

    Why? Because Classic would not exist without the popularity of private servers and the current status of their live product. I refer nearly entirely to "bliz-like" vanilla servers.

    So yes, I have a unique view point for some, because I am intimately involved in the history of original launch of vanilla Wow, the history of private servers, and the backstory of this whole mess.
    mmolou

    You stay sassy!

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,344
    It's Dire Maul and Zul'Gurub that are the problem. They both are more or less like catch-up instances and by including them at launch almost every lvl 60 dungeon and a good portion of Molten Core and Blackwing Lair becomes obsolete.

    Removing those instances from Classic altogether would make it possible to have all raids in game from a get go but then it wouldn't be classic anymore. We want an authentic experience and those instances were part of the original game.
  • AoriAori Member EpicPosts: 4,160
    deniter said:
    It's Dire Maul and Zul'Gurub that are the problem. They both are more or less like catch-up instances and by including them at launch almost every lvl 60 dungeon and a good portion of Molten Core and Blackwing Lair becomes obsolete.

    Removing those instances from Classic altogether would make it possible to have all raids in game from a get go but then it wouldn't be classic anymore. We want an authentic experience and those instances were part of the original game.
    You're not running Zul'gurub without gearing up in dungeons, that also goes for Dire Maul. Most people didn't even like Dire Maul with gear, it was a pain in the ass and took forever.
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602
    Tamanous said:


    Now tell me, what current new game ever drops with 1.5+ years of already developed content? 


     Classic is no longer 1.5+ years of content.  It has been done before and it is not like people will be figuring it out for the first time all over again.  People will be more efficient, experimenting with talent trees will not be required, figuring out raid mechanics will not longer be needed as all of that information is available.  If they were not time gating the content then you would be looking at 6 months tops for alot of folks and 8-10 even for the most casual of players.

    This is not a new game and no new game would drop with that much content either.  There was a time I was looking very forward to this but no longer want to support Blizzard with a sub so will not be playing.  There is zero reason to time gate the content.  If the raids and whatnot are the same then you have to progress in a certain order anyways.

    All this will do is take developers away from other projects such as trying to reverse the fuck up known as BFA

    The only reason for this is to increase subscription times period.  They will milk the classic cow for all she got.
    Torval
  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,636
    edited March 12
    Tamanous said:
    Classic is NOT just a raiding game. That's it's entire draw.

    It may be a draw for some players, but I really don’t see it ending up any other way unless your intention is  just to level up over and over again. I feel sorry for anyone who does not realize this is just another quick cash grab scheme. The company has shown very little regard for anything other than money over the last few expansions. It doesnt even matter who is working on the game when your boss is all about “do more with less,” imo.

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  • GaladournGaladourn Member RarePosts: 1,802
    Best thing comming in MMOs in 2019...this says a lot. 
    PalebaneNilden
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,496
    It seems they are going back to 40 man dungeons, now that is stupid!
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,043
    Tamanous said:


    Now tell me, what current new game ever drops with 1.5+ years of already developed content? 


     Classic is no longer 1.5+ years of content.  It has been done before and it is not like people will be figuring it out for the first time all over again.  People will be more efficient, experimenting with talent trees will not be required, figuring out raid mechanics will not longer be needed as all of that information is available.  If they were not time gating the content then you would be looking at 6 months tops for alot of folks and 8-10 even for the most casual of players.

    This is not a new game and no new game would drop with that much content either.  There was a time I was looking very forward to this but no longer want to support Blizzard with a sub so will not be playing.  There is zero reason to time gate the content.  If the raids and whatnot are the same then you have to progress in a certain order anyways.

    All this will do is take developers away from other projects such as trying to reverse the fuck up known as BFA

    The only reason for this is to increase subscription times period.  They will milk the classic cow for all she got.
    It will be interesting to see how much retention this gets.  I think the percent of people who will burn through the content is pretty small but will it appeal to a wider audience?  I don’t know.  I’m honestly starting to get interested if I can get the old group to join.  

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  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,157
    Tamanous said:


    Now tell me, what current new game ever drops with 1.5+ years of already developed content? 


     Classic is no longer 1.5+ years of content.  It has been done before and it is not like people will be figuring it out for the first time all over again.  People will be more efficient, experimenting with talent trees will not be required, figuring out raid mechanics will not longer be needed as all of that information is available.  If they were not time gating the content then you would be looking at 6 months tops for alot of folks and 8-10 even for the most casual of players.

    This is not a new game and no new game would drop with that much content either.  There was a time I was looking very forward to this but no longer want to support Blizzard with a sub so will not be playing.  There is zero reason to time gate the content.  If the raids and whatnot are the same then you have to progress in a certain order anyways.

    All this will do is take developers away from other projects such as trying to reverse the fuck up known as BFA

    The only reason for this is to increase subscription times period.  They will milk the classic cow for all she got.
    It will be interesting to see how much retention this gets.  I think the percent of people who will burn through the content is pretty small but will it appeal to a wider audience?  I don’t know.  I’m honestly starting to get interested if I can get the old group to join.  
    It will be a lot of fun.

    How long it lasts doesn't really matter :)
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  • vtravivtravi Member UncommonPosts: 342
    I am going to guess that the VAST majority of people that play classic will be like me and have never played Vanilla before. The only question that matters is, How long will people keep playing it. The retention rate will be very interesting. 
  • StizzledStizzled Member RarePosts: 1,933
    Ozmodan said:
    It seems they are going back to 40 man dungeons, now that is stupid!
    They're remaking the vanilla game, you expected them to not have 40 man raids?
    Ozmodan
  • vtravivtravi Member UncommonPosts: 342
    Palebane said:
    Tamanous said:
    Classic is NOT just a raiding game. That's it's entire draw.

    It may be a draw for some players, but I really don’t see it ending up any other way unless your intention is  just to level up over and over again. I feel sorry for anyone who does not realize this is just another quick cash grab scheme. The company has shown very little regard for anything other than money over the last few expansions. It doesnt even matter who is working on the game when your boss is all about “do more with less,” imo.
    The Cash grab comment drives me crazy. People have been begging, begging, begging for years for them to make a Vanilla server. Finally they are going to do it at great time and cost and you call it a cash grab. They have been working on it for over a year, but it is a cash grab. That is one of the dumbest comments ever. 

    A cash grab is what Lotro did. Take the current game lower xp gains and cap level at 50 then open the servers. That Probally took them an hour to get that running. That is a cash grab. 

    I understand Blizzard had completely messed up current WOW, that's why people want Vanilla. I get that people don't trust them but calling this a cash grab is idiotic.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,656
    vtravi said:
    Palebane said:
    Tamanous said:
    Classic is NOT just a raiding game. That's it's entire draw.

    It may be a draw for some players, but I really don’t see it ending up any other way unless your intention is  just to level up over and over again. I feel sorry for anyone who does not realize this is just another quick cash grab scheme. The company has shown very little regard for anything other than money over the last few expansions. It doesnt even matter who is working on the game when your boss is all about “do more with less,” imo.
    The Cash grab comment drives me crazy. People have been begging, begging, begging for years for them to make a Vanilla server. Finally they are going to do it at great time and cost and you call it a cash grab. They have been working on it for over a year, but it is a cash grab. That is one of the dumbest comments ever. 

    A cash grab is what Lotro did. Take the current game lower xp gains and cap level at 50 then open the servers. That Probally took them an hour to get that running. That is a cash grab. 

    I understand Blizzard had completely messed up current WOW, that's why people want Vanilla. I get that people don't trust them but calling this a cash grab is idiotic.
    Launching a vanilla server isn't the cash grab. Time gating it to string out subs and bump MAU is. It's naive to think there is any other reason for sub-based time sinks. Are they still going to allow ca$h $hop purchases?
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  • vtravivtravi Member UncommonPosts: 342
    This is how progression servers work. I don't see the problem with this. Private servers don't charge money and they work this way. Is it a cash grab for them? Sorry you are wrong on this. Nothing would surprise me with Blizzard and monetizing classic but this case is not a cash grab. If they opened everything at once they would essentially break the game. 
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    edited March 12
    Palebane said:
    Tamanous said:
    Classic is NOT just a raiding game. That's it's entire draw.

    It may be a draw for some players, but I really don’t see it ending up any other way unless your intention is  just to level up over and over again. I feel sorry for anyone who does not realize this is just another quick cash grab scheme. The company has shown very little regard for anything other than money over the last few expansions. It doesnt even matter who is working on the game when your boss is all about “do more with less,” imo.
    So what you are saying is: You have absolutely no clue what is going on with private servers, the massive Classic fan base and you like to talk about shit you know nothing about.

    Well, I guess you're allowed to do so.

    See you in Classic!
    mmolouPalebane

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  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602
    vtravi said:
    This is how progression servers work. I don't see the problem with this. Private servers don't charge money and they work this way. Is it a cash grab for them? Sorry you are wrong on this. Nothing would surprise me with Blizzard and monetizing classic but this case is not a cash grab. If they opened everything at once they would essentially break the game. 
    This is not a progression server though.  This is a pre-BC server and is not unless news comes to indicate otherwise, a server which will see anything added post Naxx.

    I do not believe it is a cash grab as they are giving folks what they want.  Agree with Torval though that time gating content which has a certain progression order anyway to be able to clear is to string out subs. 
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    edited March 12
    vtravi said:
    This is how progression servers work. I don't see the problem with this. Private servers don't charge money and they work this way. Is it a cash grab for them? Sorry you are wrong on this. Nothing would surprise me with Blizzard and monetizing classic but this case is not a cash grab. If they opened everything at once they would essentially break the game. 
    This is not a progression server though.  This is a pre-BC server and is not unless news comes to indicate otherwise, a server which will see anything added post Naxx.

    I do not believe it is a cash grab as they are giving folks what they want.  Agree with Torval though that time gating content which has a certain progression order anyway to be able to clear is to string out subs. 
    Progression is being used in relation to the delayed content and gear roll out within Classic itself. He was not referencing the progression to additional expansions.

    The progressive content within Classic is delayed due to a VERY careful balance of ensuring powerful gear upgrades in all areas of the game (pvp, raid, quests, dungeons, rep, etc) do not cause balance issues if released at the wrong times.

    It is a completely logical release schedule. It has nothing to do with stringing out subs.

    You CAN'T have Dire Maul released prior to Molten Core because the blues in DM are better than much of the gear in MC. So what would the f'ing point be of doing MC then?

    You CAN'T have BWL come out at the same time as ZG because ZG offers some gear that trivializes BWL gear and offers world buffs for raids that further trivializes BWL.

    You CAN'T have Green Dragons release at the same time as AQ because they are meant to provide nature resist gear for the AQ raid itself and meant to have already been farmed.

    There are stages in Classic where Blizzard flat out put in catch up gear for new or non-raiders that would trivialize the entire progression curve.

    This 6 stage release schedule was nearly a f'ing online campaign by Classic lovers to have it changed from the initial 4 step plan which would have ruined the game. Everyone, who knows anything about how Classic works, is jumping for joy over this news.

    I suggest some of you do your research, and adjust your reality.
    mmolou

    You stay sassy!

  • MargraveMargrave Member RarePosts: 1,164
    I wish this would go ahead and launch already.

    I'm so ready.

    I gots the plans I do. I gots the plans.
    vtravi
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