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Shroud of the Avatar - 'We Are Nomadic Now' as the Team Gives Up Its Office Space - MMORPG.com News

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,941
    laserit said:
    Sovrath said:
    LeFantome said:
    Nilden said:
    Renfail said:
    A business that doesn't have commercial premises is called a hobby! A smart business choice would be a  smallish office with a conference room big enough for meetings, a receptionist and a couple of senior staff. With everyone else telecommuting.


    Bullshit. 

    There are so many example of successful companies who work remotely and don't need a physical space. 

    Ours is one of them. We are also an Austin-based company. 14 team members presently. 8-figure evaluation. Expansion + round of investments going on presently. Expanding our team by 6 - 8 employees throughout 2019/2020. 

    100% remote, and we have been since day one. It was a choice we made at the very beginning based on my experience since 2008 working around the world as a digital nomad completing marketing/photography/videography contracts for some of the largest tourism brands and companies on the planet (Costa Brava, Failte Ireland, Nat Geo, Backroads, TBEX, and beyond). 

    My entire public speaking career has been based on educating folks on how to bootstrap their brands into existence using remote teams and digital marketing where you have a fraction of the spendature that brick-and-mortars burn through every year.

    We specifically and strategically do not have commercial offices because it's a waste of money for a company like ours. When you look at rent in the Austin space costing 5k-ish per month with 3 - 4 year lease minimums, you start looking at 180k - 240k spent on rent. 

    A good engineer at 90k = we could spend that on rent (burning money) or we could spend it on engineers (game content). 

    Yes, there are pros to having a physical office. Coworking has a lot going for it in terms of brainstorming, communication, daily standups, and etc. 

    There are also a ton of pros to working remotely. Most of which have already been discussed in this thread, and beyond. 

    Also cons to both options. 

    When you are a company like Zenimax and you've got millions floating around to spend, it's easy enough to write off an office space. 

    When you are a lean indie company where every dollar - nay, every penny - counts, then working remote is not only a good idea, I would suggest it's the only smart move until you get to the point where you are generating enough excess income to cover the cost of a rental space. 

    And, if you can afford it, you're better off buying your own space to cut down on rent, and then you've got a commercial space that you can rent out if you ever hit lean years (i.e. the way the Rand brothers from Cyan Inc. did things with their property in Washington). 

    A lack of commercial space is by no means an indicator of whether or not a business is successful.
    I agree with @craftseeker and I think having offices does make your business more successful. Honestly knowing this about your game/company makes me think you are more of a hobby/passion project than I did before.

    Being able to afford offices is an indicator of a businesses success to me.

    Edit: You even elude to it in your post by saying "until you get to the point where you are generating enough excess income to cover the cost of a rental space." Which let's face it you probably want to have offices in the future if your game/company becomes more successful.


    Well that only makes you wrong. 
    Wrong? Can you name a successful business with no offices to.. actually make business ? I don't know if you know how that works but.. when you start a business, you start from zero. From your home, then you get bigger until you need an office and then you have employees working for you and.. so on and on.  Look at where SOTA is at now.. they are back to the beginning.  DING DING… no bells ringing ??
    There are businesses that are completely remote. Successful? Well, staying in business to me is successful.

    Forbes even did a blurb on it.

    I'm old fashioned and lean toward having an office but I think "the new generation" is very quick to embrace remote working and make it work.

    The problem with working from home/remotely is self discipline. It very difficult for most, more difficult than they are willing to admit.
    My company is very results based. Meaning, the culture is a work hard and definitely play hard culture.

    People can discuss non work related things, play chess or air hockey or foosball during work hours, there are many events that the company sponsors for all employees.

    But in the end, you have to get work done and you have to excel.

    So if people stopped getting things done or if their work suffered from working at home then they wouldn't be working at home for long.
    TorvallaseritKyleranHatefull



  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,154
    Sovrath said:
    laserit said:
    Sovrath said:
    LeFantome said:
    Nilden said:
    Renfail said:
    A business that doesn't have commercial premises is called a hobby! A smart business choice would be a  smallish office with a conference room big enough for meetings, a receptionist and a couple of senior staff. With everyone else telecommuting.


    Bullshit. 

    There are so many example of successful companies who work remotely and don't need a physical space. 

    Ours is one of them. We are also an Austin-based company. 14 team members presently. 8-figure evaluation. Expansion + round of investments going on presently. Expanding our team by 6 - 8 employees throughout 2019/2020. 

    100% remote, and we have been since day one. It was a choice we made at the very beginning based on my experience since 2008 working around the world as a digital nomad completing marketing/photography/videography contracts for some of the largest tourism brands and companies on the planet (Costa Brava, Failte Ireland, Nat Geo, Backroads, TBEX, and beyond). 

    My entire public speaking career has been based on educating folks on how to bootstrap their brands into existence using remote teams and digital marketing where you have a fraction of the spendature that brick-and-mortars burn through every year.

    We specifically and strategically do not have commercial offices because it's a waste of money for a company like ours. When you look at rent in the Austin space costing 5k-ish per month with 3 - 4 year lease minimums, you start looking at 180k - 240k spent on rent. 

    A good engineer at 90k = we could spend that on rent (burning money) or we could spend it on engineers (game content). 

    Yes, there are pros to having a physical office. Coworking has a lot going for it in terms of brainstorming, communication, daily standups, and etc. 

    There are also a ton of pros to working remotely. Most of which have already been discussed in this thread, and beyond. 

    Also cons to both options. 

    When you are a company like Zenimax and you've got millions floating around to spend, it's easy enough to write off an office space. 

    When you are a lean indie company where every dollar - nay, every penny - counts, then working remote is not only a good idea, I would suggest it's the only smart move until you get to the point where you are generating enough excess income to cover the cost of a rental space. 

    And, if you can afford it, you're better off buying your own space to cut down on rent, and then you've got a commercial space that you can rent out if you ever hit lean years (i.e. the way the Rand brothers from Cyan Inc. did things with their property in Washington). 

    A lack of commercial space is by no means an indicator of whether or not a business is successful.
    I agree with @craftseeker and I think having offices does make your business more successful. Honestly knowing this about your game/company makes me think you are more of a hobby/passion project than I did before.

    Being able to afford offices is an indicator of a businesses success to me.

    Edit: You even elude to it in your post by saying "until you get to the point where you are generating enough excess income to cover the cost of a rental space." Which let's face it you probably want to have offices in the future if your game/company becomes more successful.


    Well that only makes you wrong. 
    Wrong? Can you name a successful business with no offices to.. actually make business ? I don't know if you know how that works but.. when you start a business, you start from zero. From your home, then you get bigger until you need an office and then you have employees working for you and.. so on and on.  Look at where SOTA is at now.. they are back to the beginning.  DING DING… no bells ringing ??
    There are businesses that are completely remote. Successful? Well, staying in business to me is successful.

    Forbes even did a blurb on it.

    I'm old fashioned and lean toward having an office but I think "the new generation" is very quick to embrace remote working and make it work.

    The problem with working from home/remotely is self discipline. It very difficult for most, more difficult than they are willing to admit.
    My company is very results based. Meaning, the culture is a work hard and definitely play hard culture.

    People can discuss non work related things, play chess or air hockey or foosball during work hours, there are many events that the company sponsors for all employees.

    But in the end, you have to get work done and you have to excel.

    So if people stopped getting things done or if their work suffered from working at home then they wouldn't be working at home for long.
    I'm not debating the pro's vs con's, there are definite benefits and advantages. I'm just stating that it takes a lot of self discipline.Some people have no problems with the self discipline part, some do.

    You guys look at it from the employee side, I look at it from the employer side. Good people are hard to find.

    It's not all a bed of roses ;) 

     
    SovrathKyleranJamesGoblin

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,941
    laserit said:

    I'm not debating the pro's vs con's, there are definite benefits and advantages. I'm just stating that it takes a lot of self discipline.Some people have no problems with the self discipline part, some do.

    You guys look at it from the employee side, I look at it from the employer side. Good people are hard to find.

    It's not all a bed of roses ;) 

     
    Well, like I said, we only allow employees to work from home who can handle it. B)
    TorvalHatefull



  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,512
    Sovrath said:
    laserit said:

    I'm not debating the pro's vs con's, there are definite benefits and advantages. I'm just stating that it takes a lot of self discipline.Some people have no problems with the self discipline part, some do.

    You guys look at it from the employee side, I look at it from the employer side. Good people are hard to find.

    It's not all a bed of roses ;) 

     
    Well, like I said, we only allow employees to work from home who can handle it. B)
    That's the thing, for us we work nights, weekends, and holidays (without extra pay) because the deadlines are real. It doesn't matter where I'm at. I need to deliver the goods or have an answer. In response to your earlier post, if people can't deliver from home they won't be working period, at the office or home.  
    Sovrathblueturtle13
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,181
    Interesting discussion, with many good examples of the office-less business.  I'm not all that for the concept, especially for companies dealing with e-assets.  Too much opportunity for things to 'walk'.

    However, this is Shroud of the Avatar we're dealing with here.  Will anyone point out that another benefit to not having a physical location is that it makes serving papers to the company more difficult?



    KyleranJamesGoblinLeFantome

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,741
    Mendel said:
    Interesting discussion, with many good examples of the office-less business.  I'm not all that for the concept, especially for companies dealing with e-assets.  Too much opportunity for things to 'walk'.

    However, this is Shroud of the Avatar we're dealing with here.  Will anyone point out that another benefit to not having a physical location is that it makes serving papers to the company more difficult?



    The only thing walking when it comes to SotA is Richard Garriott, out of the door when shit hits the fan to be precise.

    Then again, there won't be a door to walk out of when you don't have an office, oohhh that clever fox.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    KyleranJamesGoblinnewbismxLeFantome
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited March 5
    Mendel said:
    Interesting discussion, with many good examples of the office-less business.  I'm not all that for the concept, especially for companies dealing with e-assets.  Too much opportunity for things to 'walk'.

    However, this is Shroud of the Avatar we're dealing with here.  Will anyone point out that another benefit to not having a physical location is that it makes serving papers to the company more difficult?



    No, because apparently, calling spades as much makes us all trolls with axes to grind against Port. /shrug

    Because some companies have opted to use telecommuting successfully in much different situations, we must drop all context here and act as if this was a business masterstroke by Port.  You'll have to ask one of those folks how that works, exactly. :D 
    JamesGoblinKyleranNildenHatefull

    image
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,941
    edited March 5
    Mendel said:
    Interesting discussion, with many good examples of the office-less business.  I'm not all that for the concept, especially for companies dealing with e-assets.  Too much opportunity for things to 'walk'.

    However, this is Shroud of the Avatar we're dealing with here.  Will anyone point out that another benefit to not having a physical location is that it makes serving papers to the company more difficult?



    No, because apparently, calling spades as much makes us all trolls with axes to grind against Port. /shrug

    Because some companies have opted to use telecommuting successfully in much different situations, we must drop all context here and act as if this was a business masterstroke by Port.  You'll have to ask one of those folks how that works, exactly. :D 
    I don't think anyone has asked you to drop context. That's all you.

    Someone mentioned that working from home meant that a company wasn't really much of a company and people who have actual first hand experience, or who did the barest bit of looking know that's not the case.

    I don't think one person here has said that Portalarium is being forward thinking and embracing new ideas in business,.

    I know that "I" said that at least they were trying to stay in business unlike larger companies that would have just closed it down.

    Not sure why you are looking for drama.

    edit: I should add that I also said that I'm not privy to their financials so I can't say anything either way.
    Torval



  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:
    Interesting discussion, with many good examples of the office-less business.  I'm not all that for the concept, especially for companies dealing with e-assets.  Too much opportunity for things to 'walk'.

    However, this is Shroud of the Avatar we're dealing with here.  Will anyone point out that another benefit to not having a physical location is that it makes serving papers to the company more difficult?



    No, because apparently, calling spades as much makes us all trolls with axes to grind against Port. /shrug

    Because some companies have opted to use telecommuting successfully in much different situations, we must drop all context here and act as if this was a business masterstroke by Port.  You'll have to ask one of those folks how that works, exactly. :D 
    I don't think anyone has asked you to drop context. That's all you.

    Someone mentioned that working from home meant that a company wasn't really much of a company and people who have actual first hand experience, or who did the barest bit of looking know that's not the case.

    I don't think one person here has said that Portalarium is being forward thinking and embracing new ideas in business,.

    I know that "I" said that at least they were trying to stay in business unlike larger companies that would have just closed it down.

    Not sure why you are looking for drama.

    edit: I should add that I also said that I'm not privy to their financials so I can't say anything either way.
    You aren't the only person who posted, and certainly wasn't the poster I was alluding to.

    In this context, their losing the office could be correctly construed as "not much of a company" so long as one is not trying to completely ignore the context of the company's past.  It's been said: this move is to keep the whole thing afloat a little longer.  Not some positive and elective evolution due to managerial enlightenment.
    JamesGoblinKyleranLeFantome

    image
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,941
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:
    Interesting discussion, with many good examples of the office-less business.  I'm not all that for the concept, especially for companies dealing with e-assets.  Too much opportunity for things to 'walk'.

    However, this is Shroud of the Avatar we're dealing with here.  Will anyone point out that another benefit to not having a physical location is that it makes serving papers to the company more difficult?



    No, because apparently, calling spades as much makes us all trolls with axes to grind against Port. /shrug

    Because some companies have opted to use telecommuting successfully in much different situations, we must drop all context here and act as if this was a business masterstroke by Port.  You'll have to ask one of those folks how that works, exactly. :D 
    I don't think anyone has asked you to drop context. That's all you.

    Someone mentioned that working from home meant that a company wasn't really much of a company and people who have actual first hand experience, or who did the barest bit of looking know that's not the case.

    I don't think one person here has said that Portalarium is being forward thinking and embracing new ideas in business,.

    I know that "I" said that at least they were trying to stay in business unlike larger companies that would have just closed it down.

    Not sure why you are looking for drama.

    edit: I should add that I also said that I'm not privy to their financials so I can't say anything either way.
    You aren't the only person who posted, and certainly wasn't the poster I was alluding to.

    In this context, their losing the office could be correctly construed as "not much of a company" so long as one is not trying to completely ignore the context of the company's past.  It's been said: this move is to keep the whole thing afloat a little longer.  Not some positive and elective evolution due to managerial enlightenment.
    In truth they probably aren't making enough money and have decided that in order to keep their game running they are going to look for cost savings. People have paid money into their product and they are at least trying to do what they can to keep it going.




    KyleranTorval



  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Sovrath said:
    Sovrath said:
    Mendel said:
    Interesting discussion, with many good examples of the office-less business.  I'm not all that for the concept, especially for companies dealing with e-assets.  Too much opportunity for things to 'walk'.

    However, this is Shroud of the Avatar we're dealing with here.  Will anyone point out that another benefit to not having a physical location is that it makes serving papers to the company more difficult?



    No, because apparently, calling spades as much makes us all trolls with axes to grind against Port. /shrug

    Because some companies have opted to use telecommuting successfully in much different situations, we must drop all context here and act as if this was a business masterstroke by Port.  You'll have to ask one of those folks how that works, exactly. :D 
    I don't think anyone has asked you to drop context. That's all you.

    Someone mentioned that working from home meant that a company wasn't really much of a company and people who have actual first hand experience, or who did the barest bit of looking know that's not the case.

    I don't think one person here has said that Portalarium is being forward thinking and embracing new ideas in business,.

    I know that "I" said that at least they were trying to stay in business unlike larger companies that would have just closed it down.

    Not sure why you are looking for drama.

    edit: I should add that I also said that I'm not privy to their financials so I can't say anything either way.
    You aren't the only person who posted, and certainly wasn't the poster I was alluding to.

    In this context, their losing the office could be correctly construed as "not much of a company" so long as one is not trying to completely ignore the context of the company's past.  It's been said: this move is to keep the whole thing afloat a little longer.  Not some positive and elective evolution due to managerial enlightenment.
    In truth they probably aren't making enough money and have decided that in order to keep their game running they are going to look for cost savings. People have paid money into their product and they are at least trying to do what they can to keep it going.




    They are, most likely.  I don't think many would even seriously dispute that.  So why does pointing that out create a need for someone to lump us into such negative generalizations?

    You and I agreed there are benefits to telecommuting, as did many others.  But any benefit here (other than staving off the entire thing collapsing, apparently) is incidental to a move taken out of necessity.

    Coincidentally, I hope you don't think I have an issue with you personally, Sov.  I know I quote you a lot to jump into discussions, and you and I rarely agree completely so we're usually debating at least the partial point, but I don't want you to get the feeling that I search you out specifically to disagree with you arbitrarily.  You just present a lot of good/well-written points to reply to in most threads, even if I may disagree.
    JamesGoblinblueturtle13

    image
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,941
    You aren't the only person who posted, and certainly wasn't the poster I was alluding to.

    In this context, their losing the office could be correctly construed as "not much of a company" so long as one is not trying to completely ignore the context of the company's past.  It's been said: this move is to keep the whole thing afloat a little longer.  Not some positive and elective evolution due to managerial enlightenment.
    In truth they probably aren't making enough money and have decided that in order to keep their game running they are going to look for cost savings. People have paid money into their product and they are at least trying to do what they can to keep it going.




    They are, most likely.  I don't think many would even seriously dispute that.  So why does pointing that out create a need for someone to lump us into such negative generalizations?

    You and I agreed there are benefits to telecommuting, as did many others.  But any benefit here (other than staving off the entire thing collapsing, apparently) is incidental to a move taken out of necessity.

    Coincidentally, I hope you don't think I have an issue with you personally, Sov.  I know I quote you a lot to jump into discussions, and you and I rarely agree completely so we're usually debating at least the partial point, but I don't want you to get the feeling that I search you out specifically to disagree with you arbitrarily.  You just present a lot of good/well-written points to reply to in most threads, even if I may disagree.
    here you go ...


    B)


    TorvalMadFrenchieparrotpholklaseritKyleranJamesGoblinScotblueturtle13craftseeker



  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,613
    You know if all of us waiting for an indie MMO to come out that was going to knock our socks of decided to play SotA, while we were waiting it could become quite the success. And considering we may be waiting for a game which will never launch that might be rather good use of our time. ;)
    KyleranRenfailSovrathparrotpholkTorvalJamesGoblin

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,734
    Scot said:
    You know if all of us waiting for an indie MMO to come out that was going to knock our socks of decided to play SotA, while we were waiting it could become quite the success. And considering we may be waiting for a game which will never launch that might be rather good use of our time. ;)
    It would be bad use of time to play a game that is bad and that we dislike.

    This isn't some ideology or cause that we should support for principle - it's entertainment that either is fun enough or is not fun enough.
    parrotpholkJamesGoblincraftseeker
     
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,512
    Vrika said:
    Scot said:
    You know if all of us waiting for an indie MMO to come out that was going to knock our socks of decided to play SotA, while we were waiting it could become quite the success. And considering we may be waiting for a game which will never launch that might be rather good use of our time. ;)
    It would be bad use of time to play a game that is bad and that we dislike.

    This isn't some ideology or cause that we should support for principle - it's entertainment that either is fun enough or is not fun enough.
    The point I got out of that is it's better to play something 'okay' together now than wait for something perfect later. With that kind of community input it could move the game in a more positive direction.

    There was a lot of things I liked about SotA when I played it, especially the skill system. I found that to be incredibly satisfying. The combat was okay. I didn't like the overland map, but it wasn't a deal breaker. The buggy NPCs and quests were the most annoying thing and the entire package just 'lacked'. I could see it not lacking if a larger community added life and direction to it.

    In short 'perfect is the enemy of good' and gamers are addicted to perfect. On the other side of that coin, many studios seem addicted to overpriced, underdelivered, mediocrity. Something has to give.

    I'm not playing MMOs much anymore because I'm tired of revenue streams and getting milked for the same tired experience rehashed. I don't see the value in it anymore (subs included) so I'm not paying or playing them. I still think he has a point though and could be right and your "anti" stance is as ideological as his only it's the opposite view.
    MendelSovrathRenfailKyleranScottweedledumb99
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,181
    Torval said:
    Vrika said:
    Scot said:
    You know if all of us waiting for an indie MMO to come out that was going to knock our socks of decided to play SotA, while we were waiting it could become quite the success. And considering we may be waiting for a game which will never launch that might be rather good use of our time. ;)
    It would be bad use of time to play a game that is bad and that we dislike.

    This isn't some ideology or cause that we should support for principle - it's entertainment that either is fun enough or is not fun enough.
    The point I got out of that is it's better to play something 'okay' together now than wait for something perfect later. With that kind of community input it could move the game in a more positive direction.

    There was a lot of things I liked about SotA when I played it, especially the skill system. I found that to be incredibly satisfying. The combat was okay. I didn't like the overland map, but it wasn't a deal breaker. The buggy NPCs and quests were the most annoying thing and the entire package just 'lacked'. I could see it not lacking if a larger community added life and direction to it.

    In short 'perfect is the enemy of good' and gamers are addicted to perfect. On the other side of that coin, many studios seem addicted to overpriced, underdelivered, mediocrity. Something has to give.

    I'm not playing MMOs much anymore because I'm tired of revenue streams and getting milked for the same tired experience rehashed. I don't see the value in it anymore (subs included) so I'm not paying or playing them. I still think he has a point though and could be right and your "anti" stance is as ideological as his only it's the opposite view.
    I'm with you, on several points.  Specifically, the 'playing is better than waiting' and 'bland MMORPG' points.  But there has to be some point where supporting an inferior product is bad for the industry because it encourages more mediocrity.  Support the bad, get more bad.

    People may be addicted to perfection, but all too often, they accept substandard products instead of holding to their guns.  Maybe in order to improve the genre, players simply may have to stop supporting these substandard products, so that the weak games disappear and companies have to aim higher for our money.

    Maybe we can agree on 'playing (other superior games) is better than waiting', but 'playing (inferior games) only hurts our chances of getting that next superior game'.

    We have met the enemy, and he is we.  Damn, that possum really knew his business.



    KyleranTorvalEarthgirl

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • RenfailRenfail Member RarePosts: 1,336
    The thing is, it's not an "inferior product", as so many are wont to rant about. 

    It's just different. Fun for some, not fun for others. Regularly being worked on and updated an enhanced and improved in many different ways. 

    Just. Like. Every. Other. Game. Ever. Released.

    I had a lot of fun the first four months after launch and played with a couple of static groups from our gaming community.

    Were there flaws? Are there still flaws? Yep. 

    Just. Like. Every. Other. Game. Ever. Released. 

    We'd still be playing except the way we all play games these days is in cycles. 4-6 months here, 4-6 months there, etc. As an example, we're getting ready to jump into the EQ2 Kaladim TLE server next Saturday for a few months on the weekends, plus I'm playing Anthem with another group, which is also my LOTRO group from Tuesdays and Thursdays, which is a game we also cycle back to once a year for a few months. 

    And both Anthem and LOTRO are flawed games. One of them recently launched. One has been out for over a decade and still has flaws. 

    Just. Like. Every. Other. Game. Ever. Released. 

    The worst part about the SOTA issue, for me, is how much vitriol the snowflake community has against the developers of the game. How so many have a burning desire to see the people working on the game crash, burn, and lose their livlihoods. 

    Out of what? Spite? I don't get it. 

    I've been to their office several times. Hung out with them both on and off-site. They've got a great team of veterans who have worked on some of the most iconic games of the past couple of generations, like Wing Commander, Ultima Online, Tabula Rasa, and beyond. 

    They are exactly like every other gamer out there on the planet in that their primary passion in life is video games. Both to play, and to work on. 

    Games are about coming together and finding common joy in the entertainment of a virtual world. Is every game perfect? Nope. But that doesn't mean the people behind those games are worth of hate, derision, vitriol, spite, and all of the other emotions that people show towards the folks at Portalarium. 

    While the game may not be perfect for everyone, and it might not be fun for everyone, terms like "inferior" don't apply as they are subjective. There are many people still playing SOTA who enjoy the game.

    I personally still think it's a fun game, despite the flaws (I abhore their dialogue system, but love the storylines, and I don't like the way it takes control of my avatar when harvesting a node), and I'll probably come back around to play it again at some point once our community wraps EQ2, Anthem, and then the WoW Classic bandwagon we are ramping up for. 

    But one thing I won't do, regardless if I dislike the features of a given title, is shit on people who have put years of their lives and blood/sweat/tears into building a game.

    The lack of common human decency in the gamers of today is heartbreaking. 
    ChildoftheShadowsArteriusKyleranTorvalSovrath
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Creative Director | The Saga of Lucimia MMORPG
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602
    Renfail said:
    The thing is, it's not an "inferior product", as so many are wont to rant about. 

    It's just different. Fun for some, not fun for others. Regularly being worked on and updated an enhanced and improved in many different ways. 

    Just. Like. Every. Other. Game. Ever. Released.

    I had a lot of fun the first four months after launch and played with a couple of static groups from our gaming community.

    Were there flaws? Are there still flaws? Yep. 

    Just. Like. Every. Other. Game. Ever. Released. 

    We'd still be playing except the way we all play games these days is in cycles. 4-6 months here, 4-6 months there, etc. As an example, we're getting ready to jump into the EQ2 Kaladim TLE server next Saturday for a few months on the weekends, plus I'm playing Anthem with another group, which is also my LOTRO group from Tuesdays and Thursdays, which is a game we also cycle back to once a year for a few months. 

    And both Anthem and LOTRO are flawed games. One of them recently launched. One has been out for over a decade and still has flaws. 

    Just. Like. Every. Other. Game. Ever. Released. 

    The worst part about the SOTA issue, for me, is how much vitriol the snowflake community has against the developers of the game. How so many have a burning desire to see the people working on the game crash, burn, and lose their livlihoods. 

    Out of what? Spite? I don't get it. 

    I've been to their office several times. Hung out with them both on and off-site. They've got a great team of veterans who have worked on some of the most iconic games of the past couple of generations, like Wing Commander, Ultima Online, Tabula Rasa, and beyond. 

    They are exactly like every other gamer out there on the planet in that their primary passion in life is video games. Both to play, and to work on. 

    Games are about coming together and finding common joy in the entertainment of a virtual world. Is every game perfect? Nope. But that doesn't mean the people behind those games are worth of hate, derision, vitriol, spite, and all of the other emotions that people show towards the folks at Portalarium. 

    While the game may not be perfect for everyone, and it might not be fun for everyone, terms like "inferior" don't apply as they are subjective. There are many people still playing SOTA who enjoy the game.

    I personally still think it's a fun game, despite the flaws (I abhore their dialogue system, but love the storylines, and I don't like the way it takes control of my avatar when harvesting a node), and I'll probably come back around to play it again at some point once our community wraps EQ2, Anthem, and then the WoW Classic bandwagon we are ramping up for. 

    But one thing I won't do, regardless if I dislike the features of a given title, is shit on people who have put years of their lives and blood/sweat/tears into building a game.

    The lack of common human decency in the gamers of today is heartbreaking. 
    Kind of like those who call people snowflakes and claims everything is great and everyone else is wrong or they are a snowflake.  Yeah I hate how they do that too.

    Just.Like.Every.Other.Poster.On.The.Internet
    craftseeker
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,068
    Renfail said:
    The thing is, it's not an "inferior product", as so many are wont to rant about. 

    It's just different. Fun for some, not fun for others. Regularly being worked on and updated an enhanced and improved in many different ways. 

    Just. Like. Every. Other. Game. Ever. Released.

    I had a lot of fun the first four months after launch and played with a couple of static groups from our gaming community.

    Were there flaws? Are there still flaws? Yep. 

    Just. Like. Every. Other. Game. Ever. Released. 

    We'd still be playing except the way we all play games these days is in cycles. 4-6 months here, 4-6 months there, etc. As an example, we're getting ready to jump into the EQ2 Kaladim TLE server next Saturday for a few months on the weekends, plus I'm playing Anthem with another group, which is also my LOTRO group from Tuesdays and Thursdays, which is a game we also cycle back to once a year for a few months. 

    And both Anthem and LOTRO are flawed games. One of them recently launched. One has been out for over a decade and still has flaws. 

    Just. Like. Every. Other. Game. Ever. Released. 

    The worst part about the SOTA issue, for me, is how much vitriol the snowflake community has against the developers of the game. How so many have a burning desire to see the people working on the game crash, burn, and lose their livlihoods. 

    Out of what? Spite? I don't get it. 

    I've been to their office several times. Hung out with them both on and off-site. They've got a great team of veterans who have worked on some of the most iconic games of the past couple of generations, like Wing Commander, Ultima Online, Tabula Rasa, and beyond. 

    They are exactly like every other gamer out there on the planet in that their primary passion in life is video games. Both to play, and to work on. 

    Games are about coming together and finding common joy in the entertainment of a virtual world. Is every game perfect? Nope. But that doesn't mean the people behind those games are worth of hate, derision, vitriol, spite, and all of the other emotions that people show towards the folks at Portalarium. 

    While the game may not be perfect for everyone, and it might not be fun for everyone, terms like "inferior" don't apply as they are subjective. There are many people still playing SOTA who enjoy the game.

    I personally still think it's a fun game, despite the flaws (I abhore their dialogue system, but love the storylines, and I don't like the way it takes control of my avatar when harvesting a node), and I'll probably come back around to play it again at some point once our community wraps EQ2, Anthem, and then the WoW Classic bandwagon we are ramping up for. 

    But one thing I won't do, regardless if I dislike the features of a given title, is shit on people who have put years of their lives and blood/sweat/tears into building a game.

    The lack of common human decency in the gamers of today is heartbreaking. 
    Kind of like those who call people snowflakes and claims everything is great and everyone else is wrong or they are a snowflake.  Yeah I hate how they do that too.

    Just.Like.Every.Other.Poster.On.The.Internet
    He didn’t claim everything was great or that everyone was wrong, but rather that gamers feel the need to take everything so personal that they insist on making a big deal out of it. It’s almost like they think  the game turned out the way it did as a personal attack on the individual instead of realizing it wasn’t  made for them and just moving on. 
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,311
    Their business plan is a very popular one now a days but it does NOT work unless you just get lkucky and target a small unchallenged market like SC did being only an ancient crappy Eve game as it's only competitor.Sc is not even surviving based off of it's game,it survives based off it's cash shop,EXACTLY what this game is doing.
    My opinion is that NONE of these studios should be in operation,they are just "winging it" using gamer's money.Winging it is a garbage way to build a game,yes even you Mr.Robert's and also why people are dreaming if they think Pantheon will be any good either.These are just real bad ideas and the owners don't care because it is no money out of their pocket.
    Kyleran

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 2,881
    They laid off half the staff and now don't have any offices. Everything is fine. :)
    craftseeker

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,514
    edited March 7
    Nilden said:
    They laid off half the staff and now don't have any offices. Everything is fine. :)




    Wait until they announce their ultimate cost-saving act:  completely shutting the game down!  Bam, expenses reduced to zero!
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,570
    Nilden said:
    They laid off half the staff and now don't have any offices. Everything is fine. :)




    Wait until they announce their ultimate cost-saving act:  completely shutting the game down!  Bam, expenses reduced to zero!
    Someone has to pay off the $17M or so debt, plus lets not forget about $4M or $5M in deferred taxes.....


    craftseekerJamesGoblin

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,514
    Kyleran said:
    Nilden said:
    They laid off half the staff and now don't have any offices. Everything is fine. :)




    Wait until they announce their ultimate cost-saving act:  completely shutting the game down!  Bam, expenses reduced to zero!
    Someone has to pay off the $17M or so debt, plus lets not forget about $4M or $5M in deferred taxes.....


    Unless they gave personal guarantees, pennies on the dollar, if anything, when the company folds.  What assets do they have to liquidate?
  • Br1mston3Br1mston3 Member CommonPosts: 5
    Tldr: SotA sucks and we're broke. 
    JamesGoblin
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