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What side of MMORPG design do you stand on?

Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
edited February 17 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

3. Simulation vs. game first.

4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

6. Player housing or no player housing. 

7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 

10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

13. themepark vs. sandbox.

14. End game vs. no end game.

15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.
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Comments

  • OldSchoolGamerOldSchoolGamer Member UncommonPosts: 225
    I prefer B2P with a monthly sub to have full access to everything.  Putting anything in a cash shop to include pets, mounts, cosmetics, boosts of any kind (temporary or permanent) or even currency tokens turns me off of a game.
    Palebane
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,780
    edited February 17
     1. Vertical
     2. there is no such thing as a game without levels ..(some do a much better job of hiding it is all) outside of say Second Life .. imo
     3.Game First
      4.Harsh Death Penalty... or it feels there is no risk/reward imo
     5. there has to be some forced group content in a true MMO imo
     6.Player Housing ... non instanced ... Instance housing is shit ...
     7.Open World , really adds to the immersion and sense of danger for me ...
    8.any of these options work for me
    9.Hard
    10.i like a combiantion of quest/grind .. to much of either becomes boring..
    11.PVE drops
    12.i do kinda leaned towars the usage  UO  for ex..
    13.Sandbox ..
    14. all games have endgame .. some are done better than others
    15. Cosmetic does not bother me and a good way for dev to make money
    16.p2p...  seem to have better communties ime .. F2P attracts some real shitheads..
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,876
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression. Vertical

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.- Levels or Skills (not necessarily levels)

    3. Simulation vs. game first. (Sim)

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty. (Medium)

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play. (A combo but certainly some content designed for full groups)

    6. Player housing or no player housing.  Housing

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP. I like the DAOC model

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting. Medium

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty.  On a scale of 10 I’d like a 7

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.  Both

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear. Intwined. Crafting could be best bu5 require ultra rare PvE mats

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.- Prefer useage

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.- Sandpark

    14. End game vs. no end game.- Similar to last question. A combo.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.- None

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P. - Subscription 

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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,209
    edited February 17
    Game design is not as simple as either or,any idea can work if the developer knows what they are doing and willing to put in the effort,otherwise any idea can also fail badly.
    Since we have already gone through several phases of copy cat game design,it is well past the time developers put some actual creativity and immersion into the games.

    Instead they want to sell us same old boring and hand holding designs.What i see is devs just like gamer's just aiming at the new trend,the market because that is where the current money is.Some are just slow at getting to the market and is why we see so many copy cat games still coming out years later.

    There is a lot of people with creative ideas out there and a lot of excellent coders but it all comes from the top,the business side,they don't sit there thinking "hmm what kind of great game can we build".Instead they  think "hmm BR's are doing really well,let's make one or Diablo was a great seller,let's make our own spammy mindless game" or Moba's are top of the food chain,let's make one.

    So how can we get developers to go outside the box and be creative and give us something DIFFERENT,well since these are all businesses first and games second,it is VERY tough to expect very much.


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,552
    Not all things are binary choices:

    Things i care about.

    Sandbox, death penalty, non instanced housing, hard, differing difficulty levels, many roles, f2p w/cosmetic shop like path of exile, multiple end games, best gear crafted and from drops, restricted pvp, dont care about level system, just have good customization, if every char has same skills and gear, it is boring. 
    PhryKyleran
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,506
    edited February 17
    1. A mixture of - Large vertical against PvE, shallow against PvP.

    2. Levels or skills and powers from XP.

    3. A mixutre of - Simulation vs. game first.

    4. Mild(ish) death penalty.

    5. Co-op grouping (its not "forced" in Co-op games is it)?

    6. Player housing, but that can be a goal after launch. More important is guild HQ.

    7. Realm versus Realm

    8. No looting.

    9. Middling difficulty. 

    10. Questing.

    11. PvE drops, which then need to be given a crafted makeover to be the best gear.

    12. Questing advancement for level, skill use for skills up to a maximum. 

    13. Theme park meat in a sandbox bread, the MMORPG Sandwich.

    14. End game, raids etc.

    15. Cosmetic cash shop only.

    16. Subscription only not "P2P". 

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  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,602
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.  Vertical

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.  No opinion as I have enjoyed both

    3. Simulation vs. game first.  Game First

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.  Middle of road on this one

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.  Grouping encouraged

    6. Player housing or no player housing.   Player Housing

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.    Restricted pvp

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.  Limited loot

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty.  Hard but not dark souls

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.  Questing to mask the grind

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.  Crafting

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.  Questing / kill

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.  Enjoy both so no opinion

    14. End game vs. no end game.  End game

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.  no cash shop

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.   P2P has typically been the better games I have played but B2P with optional sub works as well.
  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,610
    edited February 17
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.. Both

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels. Both

    3. Simulation vs. game first. Somewhere in the middle

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty. Somewhere in the middle

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play. Forced with the exception of one or two classes/builds who can struggle to solo some content.

    6. Player housing or no player housing. No

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP. One pvp server. No balance.

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting. One item from inventory.

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. Options for both

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding. Both

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear. PvE

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement. Both

    13. themepark vs. sandbox. Both

    14. End game vs. no end game. Lol, endgame. Endgame starts at the beginning.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop. No cash shop. Character services are free.

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P. B2P with optional sub

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    Wizardry said:
    Game design is not as simple as either or,any idea can work if the developer knows what they are doing and willing to put in the effort,otherwise any idea can also fail badly.
    Since we have already gone through several phases of copy cat game design,it is well past the time developers put some actual creativity and immersion into the games.

    Instead they want to sell us same old boring and hand holding designs.What i see is devs just like gamer's just aiming at the new trend,the market because that is where the current money is.Some are just slow at getting to the market and is why we see so many copy cat games still coming out years later.

    There is a lot of people with creative ideas out there and a lot of excellent coders but it all comes from the top,the business side,they don't sit there thinking "hmm what kind of great game can we build".Instead they  think "hmm BR's are doing really well,let's make one or Diablo was a great seller,let's make our own spammy mindless game" or Moba's are top of the food chain,let's make one.

    So how can we get developers to go outside the box and be creative and give us something DIFFERENT,well since these are all businesses first and games second,it is VERY tough to expect very much.


    I am not really focusing on game design just to see where people stand on the typical issues.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 20,644
    edited February 17
    This is where I stand 



    When you've done every type of MMO with every feature imaginable as nauseam, umm no thanks.

    Mmorpg design has grown old, stale predictable and downright boring. I dont want to do the same old crap again but dressed up in a different package with different text. Enough.


    If there is ever a game that brings a different approach, a new type of gameplay in a cohesive polished game - color me interested. Otherwise it's the same old - give it a try for a few days, leave disappointed 
    KyleranAlBQuirkyTorval
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.  

    Shallow progression that adds depth to characters vs.  numbers.

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    Depends on the game.  I tend to like lack of artificial lower tied to levels.

    3. Simulation vs. game first.

    I'd say middle of the road. 

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    Death should meaningful but not rage quitting.

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    I am in optional grouping.  It should be effective to group but don't want to bog down my gaming finding a group.

    6. Player housing or no player housing. 

    I'd prefer open world housing in a large enough world to support it and making a home/business useful.

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.
    Restricted open world PvP.  It has to be meaningful and no major power gaps


    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

    I lean more towards limited with special items not being lootable.

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 

    I think games should have all levels of difficulty and not just end game.

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    I like to br able to do both but prefer neither.

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    I would say crafting should be the best outside of unique items.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    I prefer shallow progression through questing for abilities.

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    Both. Special themepark areas to push a narrative and the rest sandbox with procedural for mundane task.

    14. End game vs. no end game.

    No true end game as you are doing what is typically end game from the start.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    No cash shops preferred. 

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.

    P2P or subscription.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,943
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.  Both

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.   Levels

    3. Simulation vs. game first.   Game first

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.   If PVE, decent death penalty

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.  Grouping is preferred, not required.

    6. Player housing or no player housing.   Doesnt matter

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.  No PVP

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.  No PK looting

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty.  Somewehre in the middle

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.  Exploration centered

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.  Mobs are best drops but rare

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.  Kill based

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.  Mix of both

    14. End game vs. no end game.  End game is OK

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.  Cash shop is fine, not temptation here

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.    F2P with cash shop is fine

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,117
    I'm more likely to appreciate a simulation over a game, the result tends to feel more 'realistic' to me.  I'm not always in favor of games that artificially restrict players from participating, exactly why can't that 1st level not come along to fight the dragon?  I think it's a bit of a statement on the industry when we (players) focus so much on the cost (Q 15 and 16) and what the game calls itself (Q 13).

    I'm also partial to well-written games in English.  I really don't want to learn another language to play a game, I'm bad with languages and I have the grades to prove it.



    Kyleran

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,385
    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression vs. vast vertical progression.

    Vertical

    2. Levels vs. no levels/no power platform levels.

    Levels

    3. Simulation vs. game first.

    Needs clarification

    4. No death penalty or harsh death penalty.

    Harsh

    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.

    There is no such thing as forced grouping.  Now I have lost interest in the survey. 

    6. Player housing or no player housing. 

    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP.

    8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.

    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty. 

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding.

    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement.

    13. themepark vs. sandbox.

    14. End game vs. no end game.

    15. Cash shops vs. cosmetic or no cash shop.

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P.
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/479475/what-side-of-mmorpg-design-do-you-stand-on#gKlHdjbWD8ZusZWQ.99
    PalebaneHatefull

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  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,610
    edited February 17
    Amathe said:

    There is no such thing as forced grouping.  Now I have lost interest in the survey. 

    Not sure what you mean, having played as a cleric in EQ past level 8. Perhaps the word “forced” is just too harsh. Maybe “unable to advance normally” would be less triggering.
    AlBQuirky

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    edited February 17
    1. Horizontal progression

    2. no power platform levels.

    3. game first.

    4. harsh death penalty.

    5. Forced grouping - what is forced? Let say natural grouping - raids, wars, sieges, the best items, so a game where the path with less resistance is to play in a group, and there is competition among the groups.

    6. Player housing 

    7. Open World PvP

    8. Full loot - if PvE allows it

    9. Hard difficulty

    10. Questing vs. MOB grinding - both with player to player instead NPC quests.

    11. Crafting making best gear - with clear separation of the professions. So if you choose to be a smith, you cannot be a tailor. Also crafting should allow competition, cooperation and open world trade.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement vs. usage base advancement - both.

    13. sandbox.

    14. no end game.

    15. Cosmetic cash shop with RMT. So the players could sell items for money for a fee. If the gameplay is hard and competitive with horizontal progression, I do not see any problem. 

    16. F2P vs. B2P vs. P2P - all of them. F2P to start. B2P at some moment later - like if you want to access larger areas and abilities. And premium accounts - so P2P for the players who want additional things like second character, rights to open shops in some areas, second house, access to the RMT, discounts in the cash shop, right to sell cash shop items - cosmetics to the B2P players. So every player will have access to the CS, but only P2P players could resell for ingame currency. 
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    Palebane said:
    Amathe said:

    There is no such thing as forced grouping.  Now I have lost interest in the survey. 

    Not sure what you mean, having played as a cleric in EQ past level 8. Perhaps the word “forced” is just too harsh. Maybe “unable to advance normally” would be less triggering.
    We all know what forced grouping is.  Never been an issue until a few months ago.  
    Hatefull
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,385
    Games that have group content are not "forced grouping" games. I have played many such games and no one ever forced me to do anything. 
    Hatefull

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    Amathe said:
    Games that have group content are not "forced grouping" games. I have played many such games and no one ever forced me to do anything. 
    You are arguing semantics.  It is like saying there is no such thing as pay to win even though we all have a general idea that is is paying real life money to have a competitive advantage. 

    Just like forced grouping means you are required to group to advanced.  You may not literally be forced but if you want to advance you have to.  I swear people just enjoy being contrary just to make statements.
    ikcinPalebaneHatefull
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,840
    If you don't create the perfect MMORPG for the forum members after asking all these questions...  :D :D :D

    1. Horizontal progression/shallow progression
    2. game first
    3. No death penalty (Don't like harsh, I like some penalty)
    4. optional grouping/solo play
    5. Player housing (I like purpose like Archeage though not only cosmetic)
    6. Open World PvP
    7. limited or no looting (i laways feel like full loot is just a way for people to run others out of the game and it's effective)
    8. Hard difficulty
    9. Questing (Good questing that doesn't involve ad nauseam repetition)
    10. crafting making best gear (as long as it's not silly to retrieve items, the difficulty should come accomplishing feats not RNG)
    11. Questing/kill based advancement AND usage base advancement (I like both. One of the Phantasy Star games had this. The more you used a skill the better you got at it and had visual queues to make it worth it)
    12. Sandpark. Open spaces that funnel in an optional direction to unfold stories
    13. End game (There always be deep/layered extracurricular activities before AND after level cap or story completion)
    14. no cash shop - FOH
    15. P2P, Fairly priced + larger user base = everybody is happy.
    Raging Demons for all flowchart "Kens". This is a metaphor.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,385
    Amathe said:

    I swear people just enjoy being contrary just to make statements.
    I recall this was your post and you raising this issue.

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 1,986
    3. Simulation vs. game first.
    Game first
    14. End game vs. no end game.
    Endgame
    5. Forced grouping vs. optional grouping/solo play.
    Multiplayer content
    9. Hard difficulty vs. easy difficulty
    Hard enough to make content interesting
    11. PvE having best drops vs. crafting making best gear.
    I hate crafting
    7. Open World PvP vs. restricted PvP or no PvP., 8. Full loot vs. limited or no looting.
    Restricted to no PvP with no looting, I never cared for owPvP.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,886
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:

    I swear people just enjoy being contrary just to make statements.
    I recall this was your post and you raising this issue.
    I never raised an issue.  You had an issue.  I am just asking opinions on what people like in MMORPG and you got triggered over semantics.  You know exactly what I am talking about but decided to make it a triggering issue for you out of context.
    Hatefull
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,339
    1. Vertical progression.

    2. No levels/no power platform levels.

    3. Simulation

    4. Moderate death penalty.

    5. Forced grouping

    6. Player housing would be a nice bonus. 

    7. Restricted PvP or no PvP.

    8. Limited or no looting.

    9. Easy difficulty at first, then gradually increased difficulty.

    10. Questing that involves mob killing in various ways.

    11. Crafting making best gear out of drops from PvE.

    12. Questing/kill based advancement.

    13. Sandpark.

    14. No end game. (The whole game should be your end game).

    15. Cosmetic or no cash shop.

    16. P2P.
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,385
    Amathe said:
    Amathe said:

    I swear people just enjoy being contrary just to make statements.
    I recall this was your post and you raising this issue.
    I never raised an issue.  You had an issue.  I am just asking opinions on what people like in MMORPG and you got triggered over semantics.  You know exactly what I am talking about but decided to make it a triggering issue for you out of context.
    You asked for our opinions on a list of issues, one of which included as a possible choice the term "forced grouping." Which as you now know is a term I find to be nonsense. 
    MendelHatefull

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

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