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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

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  • bigmilkbigmilk Member UncommonPosts: 45
    bigmilk said:
    I am still hoping someone can name a single server, PvP, full-loot, perma-death, persistent world, crafting, character building, base building MMO with a justice system and inheritance system.

    You know, a game that the OP says nobody does right. Also a game that has all the things that others say is missing in PvP games.

    I am asking because Haven and Hearth and Salem are the only games that I know that seems to have everything that others say is missing in a properly done PvP game.

    Are there any other games like them? I have developed 30 characters in Salem over the last 5 years. I can play them separately or simultaneously, working together as a group or as individual adventurers, and any of them can join any other players, groups or towns. Some get killed and then their possessions, if any, can be inherited or left to be salvaged by others in the 5 year old single server persistent world.

    So, please, can anyone tell me that there are other games like that?
    And everyone still don’t know what your point is. Advertising said games?
    No, not advertising the games. I am actually asking if there are any other games that host a single persistent world with full-loot permadeath PvP, with crafting, character development, base building, a justice system, and an interesting theme.

    In 9 pages of comments I have heard Eve and Darkfall mentioned several times. I'll take that as the answer. I just find it humorous that in 9 pages nobody wants to or can discuss a couple of games by actual indie developers making an honest effort at a truly PvP focused MMO.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,159
    bigmilk said:
    bigmilk said:
    I am still hoping someone can name a single server, PvP, full-loot, perma-death, persistent world, crafting, character building, base building MMO with a justice system and inheritance system.

    You know, a game that the OP says nobody does right. Also a game that has all the things that others say is missing in PvP games.

    I am asking because Haven and Hearth and Salem are the only games that I know that seems to have everything that others say is missing in a properly done PvP game.

    Are there any other games like them? I have developed 30 characters in Salem over the last 5 years. I can play them separately or simultaneously, working together as a group or as individual adventurers, and any of them can join any other players, groups or towns. Some get killed and then their possessions, if any, can be inherited or left to be salvaged by others in the 5 year old single server persistent world.

    So, please, can anyone tell me that there are other games like that?
    And everyone still don’t know what your point is. Advertising said games?
    No, not advertising the games. I am actually asking if there are any other games that host a single persistent world with full-loot permadeath PvP, with crafting, character development, base building, a justice system, and an interesting theme.

    In 9 pages of comments I have heard Eve and Darkfall mentioned several times. I'll take that as the answer. I just find it humorous that in 9 pages nobody wants to or can discuss a couple of games by actual indie developers making an honest effort at a truly PvP focused MMO.
    To be fair Aventurine was in fact a very indie development team and I'm sure CCP would have been considered that when they first started as well. Starvault, the developers of Mortal are indie.

    In regards to the two games you mention I cannot get past the visuals and control scheme to care what they are. Bummer.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited February 18
    bigmilk said:
    No, not advertising the games. I am actually asking if there are any other games that host a single persistent world with full-loot permadeath PvP, with crafting, character development, base building, a justice system, and an interesting theme.

    In 9 pages of comments I have heard Eve and Darkfall mentioned several times. I'll take that as the answer. I just find it humorous that in 9 pages nobody wants to or can discuss a couple of games by actual indie developers making an honest effort at a truly PvP focused MMO.
    EVE and Albion Online. The old L2 has no full loot, but in general it is close. Pemadeath? There is not such a MMORPG. Even Wizardly that claimed it, was not such. It is a feature that does not fit to the MMORPG genre. Devs can only simulate it for a better immersion. And when we are talking about full loot - it makes sense only if PvE allows it, like in EVE. 
    Post edited by ikcin on
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,159
    edited February 18
    Gdemami said:
    why do devs try it? Because that’s what they like.  
    Was I ever disputing that? o.O

    I was just pointing out, that your attempt to justify development economically was invalid, there isn't really a demand for such games.
    I guess my assumption was wrong. ;)
    Post edited by ChildoftheShadows on
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Gdemami said:
    why do devs try it? Because that’s what they like.  
    Was I ever disputing that? o.O

    I was just pointing out, that your attempt to justify development economically was invalid, there isn't really a demand for such games.
    There is. I demand for such a game. So these indie developers in fact work for me :)
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    I named 6 MMOs that lived long or are still going, yet people are still here saying it's a failed fork of the genre...

    If developers are only after the WoW success then we'll always see the same old stuff rehashed in an attempt to be the "next big thing".

    I'm sorry if it hurts your little feelings, but I appreciate the developers that take a risk and make the games they want to play because that means it might actually be something that I want to play.
    WoW.. a whole 6 ?

    When it comes to PvE MMo's, even Wild Star which was considered a failure by PvE MMO Standards, still lasted 7 years.
    Which is precisely why you need to look at the number of attempts as well. The number of attempted PVP games that didn't go anywhere is microscopic to the number of PVE game attempts that didn't go anywhere... But of course we don't want to think logically when our opinions are attacked.
    80% of the MMO's that shut down in 2018, were PvP focused.  What was that about failing ratio again?
    Gdemami
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,159
    edited February 18
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    I named 6 MMOs that lived long or are still going, yet people are still here saying it's a failed fork of the genre...

    If developers are only after the WoW success then we'll always see the same old stuff rehashed in an attempt to be the "next big thing".

    I'm sorry if it hurts your little feelings, but I appreciate the developers that take a risk and make the games they want to play because that means it might actually be something that I want to play.
    WoW.. a whole 6 ?

    When it comes to PvE MMo's, even Wild Star which was considered a failure by PvE MMO Standards, still lasted 7 years.
    Which is precisely why you need to look at the number of attempts as well. The number of attempted PVP games that didn't go anywhere is microscopic to the number of PVE game attempts that didn't go anywhere... But of course we don't want to think logically when our opinions are attacked.
    80% of the MMO's that shut down in 2018, were PvP focused.  What was that about failing ratio again?
    Prove it. Because like I said I'm willing to be proven wrong, but you just making statements doesn't mean anything.
    Gdemami
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,356
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    I named 6 MMOs that lived long or are still going, yet people are still here saying it's a failed fork of the genre...

    If developers are only after the WoW success then we'll always see the same old stuff rehashed in an attempt to be the "next big thing".

    I'm sorry if it hurts your little feelings, but I appreciate the developers that take a risk and make the games they want to play because that means it might actually be something that I want to play.
    WoW.. a whole 6 ?

    When it comes to PvE MMo's, even Wild Star which was considered a failure by PvE MMO Standards, still lasted 7 years.
    Which is precisely why you need to look at the number of attempts as well. The number of attempted PVP games that didn't go anywhere is microscopic to the number of PVE game attempts that didn't go anywhere... But of course we don't want to think logically when our opinions are attacked.
    80% of the MMO's that shut down in 2018, were PvP focused.  What was that about failing ratio again?
    Even if that were true you would have to look at the actual "why" they shut down.

    This is similar to the poster who said that because more online games coming out had pvp that pvp is now the new normal.

    Of course he was not really talking about mmorpg's.

    People tend to see what they want to see. I'd be curious about the actual information.




    AlBQuirky



  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited February 18
    Ungood said:
    80% of the MMO's that shut down in 2018, were PvP focused.  What was that about failing ratio again?
    So 80% of hundreds or thousands of games? And even WoW now is trying to get back the PvP. Too little too late. The crowd found better games. Blizzard are still big, but they are no more the biggest. NCSoft went mobile - their best games are still L1 and L2. Albion is fine. Could be much better, but they have a problem with the marketing. EVE is fine. Bless Unleashed will be the next PvP MMORPG, and with Bandai Namco behind it, that may become a real deal. What is the next PvE instanced MMO with big publisher? Most big upcoming titles are PvP focused. 

    So there are too much idiots in the game marketing, or you are very wrong. In fact I saw the niche before 3 years. Even talked with some investors. But it is a hard task to make a new MMORPG, very hard. Anyway, the niche is big, and it is for PvP games.
  • JakeSimJakeSim Member RarePosts: 873
    edited February 18
    ikcin said:
    JakeSim said:
    Because a good chunk of people enjoy them?

    See Albion and Crowfall. (Crowfall is full loot towards whatever in your inventory, just not your gear)
    If only Albion was F2P. Good game with terrible marketing. They will never get to the crowd. Crowfall is outdated in everything - graphics, gameplay, monetization. It would be a great game if it was made before 10 years. 

    The big crowd is in LoL and Fortnite. But both has enough MMO and RPG elements so their players could try a competitive MMORPG. But the developers do not know how to make such, and in the Albion case - do not know how to sell it.
    What do graphics have to do with gameplay? The graphics are still a WIP and looks fairly decent with everything maxed out. They also recently improved upon fps in large fights.

    Monetization? There's nothing you can buy that will make you stronger ingame.

    What don't you like about the gameplay? The game is still in pre-alpha and plays fairly well for where it's at.

    Have you played recently?

    as for Albion, ya I can agree their marketing is trash. 
    Please come check out my stream. All the love is appreciated! 

    TWITCH: @JakeSimTV
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    JakeSim said:
    What do graphics have to do with gameplay? The graphics are still a WIP and looks fairly decent with everything maxed out. They also recently improved upon fps in large fights.

    Monetization? There's nothing you can buy that will make you stronger ingame.

    What don't you like about the gameplay? The game is still in pre-alpha and plays fairly well for where it's at.

    Have you played recently?

    as for Albion, ya I can agree their marketing is trash. 
    For the crowd it should be candy eye.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,159
    I like the look of Crowfall personally. I just don't like what I see in combat. it reminds me too much of ESO's "fake" targeting combat.
  • JakeSimJakeSim Member RarePosts: 873
    I like the look of Crowfall personally. I just don't like what I see in combat. it reminds me too much of ESO's "fake" targeting combat.
    Kinda true. The hitboxes are fairly large and auto-connect. But on the other end, it can be easy to juke out attacks if you kite them around a bit since movement abilities in the game are fairly quick. So there is some room for outplaying others with just your movement.
    Please come check out my stream. All the love is appreciated! 

    TWITCH: @JakeSimTV
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    I named 6 MMOs that lived long or are still going, yet people are still here saying it's a failed fork of the genre...

    If developers are only after the WoW success then we'll always see the same old stuff rehashed in an attempt to be the "next big thing".

    I'm sorry if it hurts your little feelings, but I appreciate the developers that take a risk and make the games they want to play because that means it might actually be something that I want to play.
    WoW.. a whole 6 ?

    When it comes to PvE MMo's, even Wild Star which was considered a failure by PvE MMO Standards, still lasted 7 years.
    Which is precisely why you need to look at the number of attempts as well. The number of attempted PVP games that didn't go anywhere is microscopic to the number of PVE game attempts that didn't go anywhere... But of course we don't want to think logically when our opinions are attacked.
    80% of the MMO's that shut down in 2018, were PvP focused.  What was that about failing ratio again?
    Even if that were true you would have to look at the actual "why" they shut down.

    This is similar to the poster who said that because more online games coming out had pvp that pvp is now the new normal.

    Of course he was not really talking about mmorpg's.

    People tend to see what they want to see. I'd be curious about the actual information.




    Good question, and that Poster might be on to something, as you had games like Paragon and Devillan, that simply could not compete with the other similar games out there. Which I think the real overall reason why so many PvP Focused games are dying off. With the rise of better made more focused PvP games the market is more competitive, as such it just a purging, like what happened to many WoW clones. No longer is the market niche' enough to limp on with some select loyal fan base, hence why older games like Mortal Online are trying to reinvent themselves, and games like Preptuum that hoped attract their niche's are just dying off, even EvE is going F2P. 

    More PvP games being made, simply means more of them will die off. Nature of the market.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    ikcin said:
    Ungood said:
    80% of the MMO's that shut down in 2018, were PvP focused.  What was that about failing ratio again?
    So 80% of hundreds or thousands of games? And even WoW now is trying to get back the PvP. Too little too late. The crowd found better games. Blizzard are still big, but they are no more the biggest. NCSoft went mobile - their best games are still L1 and L2. Albion is fine. Could be much better, but they have a problem with the marketing. EVE is fine. Bless Unleashed will be the next PvP MMORPG, and with Bandai Namco behind it, that may become a real deal. What is the next PvE instanced MMO with big publisher? Most big upcoming titles are PvP focused. 

    So there are too much idiots in the game marketing, or you are very wrong. In fact I saw the niche before 3 years. Even talked with some investors. But it is a hard task to make a new MMORPG, very hard. Anyway, the niche is big, and it is for PvP games.
    The fact that you just said that you think "Hundreds of thousands of games" closed down in 2018, is why no one takes you seriously, and why no sane person would trust you with money to make an MMO on your own.
    Gdemamisquibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited February 18
    Ungood said:
    The fact that you just said that you think "Hundreds of thousands of games" closed down in 2018, is why no one takes you seriously, and why no sane person would trust you with money to make an MMO on your own.
    I looked for investors for a game, never say I will make a game. But to make a game is hard and risky, so to find money for that is hard too. I will say millions of games, and you could answer nothing :)

    As for the games, count :)https://www.mmorpg.com/games-list/show/dead 

    Ungood said:
    even EvE is going F2P. 
    EVE is F2P since 2016.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Millions of MMO's .. hilarious
    squibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    JakeSim said:

    Monetization? There's nothing you can buy that will make you stronger ingame.

    The main problem - it is not F2P. If a publisher do not know how to sell F2P game in 2019, well better for him to change the business. Most have no idea. As most developers have no idea how to make a game with horizontal progression.

    In a game with vertical progression P2W is not a big problem. Anyway if you play 3-4 hours per day, and some guy plays 10-12 hours per day, he will beat you. So if another guy pays to win - who cares. Except if you are the one with too much time to waste. But F2P does not mean P2W. It means free so easy access to the product. After you sold the product for free, you can start to make revenue, with B2P, P2P, combinations, cash shop, and still to have F2P game that is not P2W. Well also you need a really good product for that. Now when I see a B2P game with P2P - premium accounts, and cash shop - I think for Bless, bad games and greedy publishers.


  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Let me blow a few peoples minds.

    There is no such thing as meaningful PvP in an MMO.

    All PvP in a MMO is nothing more than pointless petty digital violence to other players, the only time PvP can have meaning, is in PvP campaigns where a Side can Win, and that winning has an impact.

    GdemamiSteelhelmsquibblyKyleran
  • WarEnsembleWarEnsemble Member UncommonPosts: 235
    Because there are about 2% of the mmo gaming population who like them.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    Ungood said:
    Let me blow a few peoples minds.

    There is no such thing as meaningful PvP in an MMO.

    All PvP in a MMO is nothing more than pointless petty digital violence to other players, the only time PvP can have meaning, is in PvP campaigns where a Side can Win, and that winning has an impact.

    Not in themepark or generic games.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited February 18
    Ungood said:
    Let me blow a few peoples minds.

    There is no such thing as meaningful PvP in an MMO.

    All PvP in a MMO is nothing more than pointless petty digital violence to other players, the only time PvP can have meaning, is in PvP campaigns where a Side can Win, and that winning has an impact.

    Play Sims then dude. I do not understand what is your problem. If you cannot PvP - do not. No one forces you. I doubt the indie devs make full loot games because PvP is nonsense. But who knows, maybe all indie devs smoke pots and stay high so there is not logic in their actions. 

    Personally I think there is not meaningful PvE, as to gather levels, gear and gold like a squirrel looks very stupid to me. But it seems many people like to act like squirrels.  
    squibbly
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Let me blow a few peoples minds.

    There is no such thing as meaningful PvP in an MMO.

    All PvP in a MMO is nothing more than pointless petty digital violence to other players, the only time PvP can have meaning, is in PvP campaigns where a Side can Win, and that winning has an impact.

    Not in themepark or generic games.
    Absolutely applies.. unless there is a way to directly win, which most MMO's are devoid of, the PvP is simply a endless cycle of players killing each other for pointless slaughter purely for the sake of it.
    squibbly
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited February 18
    ikcin said:
    Ungood said:
    Let me blow a few peoples minds.

    There is no such thing as meaningful PvP in an MMO.

    All PvP in a MMO is nothing more than pointless petty digital violence to other players, the only time PvP can have meaning, is in PvP campaigns where a Side can Win, and that winning has an impact.

    Play Sims then dude. I do not understand what is your problem. If you cannot PvP - do not. No one forces you. I doubt the indie devs make full loot games because PvP is nonsense. But who knows, maybe all indie devs smoke pots and stay high so there is not logic in their actions. 

    Personally I think there is not meaningful PvE, as to gather levels, gear and gold like a squirrel looks very stupid to me. But it seems many people like to act like squirrels.  
    Play Overwatch then Dude. I do not understand what is your problem, if you cannot PvE, - Do not. No one Forces you. I doubt the Indie Devs male massive PVE games, because PvE is nonsense. 

    Without a direct means to win, PvP is nothing but a bunch of sociopath squirrels killing each other purely for the sake of killing each other, that is the epitome of moronic.
  • GeekyGeeky Member UncommonPosts: 387
    Salem the Game is the best perma death, full loot, PvP game I've played.  The game from an excitement factor is low, graphics are laughable, but the setting, mechanics and character development are all pretty involved.  Then there is the perma death pvp aspect, but thats too much for some people so the game is avoided by "pvpers" because even they don't want true consequence.
    Steelhelmsquibbly
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