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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

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  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Ungood said:
    ikcin said:
    The risk of loss is part of the game, part of the fun, part of the entertainment - is'n it?
    No it's not, and that is the whole point of this topic, why are Indie Game Companies making games that are neither fun or entertaining.

    So the games must guarantee win for every player, without any risk and challenge? I will play such a game only if I'm heavily addicted, as it seems incredibly boring. 

    Well, if we are talking about virtual reality, maybe the safe environment is acceptable. Some guy wants to escape in a safe place, it is OK. But we are talking about games, aren't we?
  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 330
    Because many people want an immersive role-playing game, not these pseudo rpgs where dying doesn't matter.
    Ungood
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
  • skadadskadad Member UncommonPosts: 390
    If so many wants them, why are they failing? 
    SteelhelmOctagon7711squibbly
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,469
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    If that were true the pat to win games wouldnt be the most popular options for most. Their excuse is always..."I have more money than time". So if spending TIME in the game isnt their 'enjoyment' what is? Getting the best loot and being a psycho more often than not.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Steelhelm said:
    Because many people want an immersive role-playing game, not these pseudo rpgs where dying doesn't matter.
    So why do you play games with violence and weapons instead Sims? Immersive RPG with monsters and fights means a game where the risk is very high. I think you use the words role playing and immersive at a very deviant way.

    Now bastard draw your sword, enough words! Ohh, you returned, I will kill you again! Ohhh, you returned by I'm punished because you refuse to defend yourself, so I have to leave. You win! And I even do not know why I attack you? - Immersive, indeed :smiley:

    You, the solo noobs are so pathetic. Safe and instanced are in fact the opposite of RP and immersive. Except if we are talking about some dress up and make up RPG.

    Then you are right, in such a game the full loot has no place. Even the PvP, as your character could break its manicure.
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    skadad said:
    If so many wants them, why are they failing? 
    Because its only a vocal minority that actually wants them, not only that but everyone has their own ideas on what a good full loot PVP game is, no surprise that there are so few actual successes, the only real 'success' is probably Eve Online and that comes with a ton of caveats.
    SovrathUngoodsquibbly
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 248
    edited February 18
    The developers will catch on after a bit.
    The MMORPG marketplace is brutal.
  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 330
    ikcin said:
    Steelhelm said:
    Because many people want an immersive role-playing game, not these pseudo rpgs where dying doesn't matter.
    So why do you play games with violence and weapons instead Sims? Immersive RPG with monsters and fights means a game where the risk is very high. I think you use the words role playing and immersive at a very deviant way.

    Now bastard draw your sword, enough words! Ohh, you returned, I will kill you again! Ohhh, you returned by I'm punished because you refuse to defend yourself, so I have to leave. You win! And I even do not know why I attack you? - Immersive, indeed :smiley:

    You, the solo noobs are so pathetic. Safe and instanced are in fact the opposite of RP and immersive. Except if we are talking about some dress up and make up RPG.

    Then you are right, in such a game the full loot has no place. Even the PvP, as your character could break its manicure.
    role-playing games are about imagination, the same can be said about creating a role-playing game
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,324
    Developers make full loot pvp MMOs because they dont want my money. *shrug*

    If I play a MMO I am looking for a game that I can play for years and decades. No way I'd do that if there is no longterm incentive to work on your character, including the gear of your character. With full loot pvp the gear of the character cannot matter, i.e. needs to be easily replaceable. Thus MMOs with full loot pvp dont interest me at all.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • JakeSimJakeSim Member RarePosts: 876
    Because a good chunk of people enjoy them?

    See Albion and Crowfall. (Crowfall is full loot towards whatever in your inventory, just not your gear)
    Please come check out my stream. All the love is appreciated! 

    TWITCH: @JakeSimTV
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,476
    edited February 18
    Developers make full loot pvp MMOs because they dont want my money. *shrug*

    If I play a MMO I am looking for a game that I can play for years and decades. No way I'd do that if there is no longterm incentive to work on your character, including the gear of your character. With full loot pvp the gear of the character cannot matter, i.e. needs to be easily replaceable. Thus MMOs with full loot pvp dont interest me at all.

    If I was making a game that "I" wanted to play, why would I make it for you if what you want is different from me?

    So many times we see some players saying that developers sell out, going for largest audience, etc.

    Well, it's still a sellout to create a game that others are interested in except the developers.

    If I was making a game that you wanted to play for YOUR money and I didn't like it I'd be selling out.

    So no, they don't want your money so much as they want the money of people who want their style of game.

    But there is this really weird line of thinking that every game has to be for everyone, whether it's the game itself or alternate servers which will cost additional money to keep up and develop for.


    SteelhelmAlBQuirky



  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited February 18
    skadad said:
    If so many wants them, why are they failing? 
    Because it is much harder to create OW game. OW PvP and PvE means total freedom to the players, so many random events. It is much easier to make the things predictable with instances and rules that remove the competition and limit the cooperation. Also it is safer - you will not blow the market with such a game, but for sure you will find enough players to get some profit. In a short term it is fine product for the solo players, and the people who played WoW, GW2, ESO and etc. But with OW game you need to make balanced gameplay, to optimize the performance, and to change the mindset of the players. A hard task.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    Sovrath said:
    If I was making a game that "I" wanted to play, why would I make it for you if what you want is different from me?


    ...because devs have the bills to pay.
    parrotpholk
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Steelhelm said:
    role-playing games are about imagination, the same can be said about creating a role-playing game
    So why you play? Imagine the game, and you will be fine. Or you want all the people to imagine what you like? Then you have a problem :) 
  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 330
    ikcin said:
    Steelhelm said:
    role-playing games are about imagination, the same can be said about creating a role-playing game
    So why you play? Imagine the game, and you will be fine. Or you want all the people to imagine what you like? Then you have a problem :) 
    I play for the excitement and the frustration.
    Amaranthar
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    JakeSim said:
    Because a good chunk of people enjoy them?

    See Albion and Crowfall. (Crowfall is full loot towards whatever in your inventory, just not your gear)
    If only Albion was F2P. Good game with terrible marketing. They will never get to the crowd. Crowfall is outdated in everything - graphics, gameplay, monetization. It would be a great game if it was made before 10 years. 

    The big crowd is in LoL and Fortnite. But both has enough MMO and RPG elements so their players could try a competitive MMORPG. But the developers do not know how to make such, and in the Albion case - do not know how to sell it.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,476
    edited February 18
    Gdemami said:
    Sovrath said:
    If I was making a game that "I" wanted to play, why would I make it for you if what you want is different from me?


    ...because devs have the bills to pay.
    That doesn't change the fact that they might want to break away and try their hand at something that they actually want to make.

    Artists of all types, people who create things, don't go into their respective craft "to pay the bills." Oh sure, everyone who does something creative would love to make something that pays the bills. But usually they do something extra that pays the bills so they can do the things that excite them, that made them want to get into their field.


    parrotpholk



  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    Sovrath said:
    That doesn't change the fact that they might want to break away and try their hand at something that they actually want to make.
    It doesn't? How come?
    parrotpholk
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,476
    Gdemami said:
    Sovrath said:
    That doesn't change the fact that they might want to break away and try their hand at something that they actually want to make.
    It doesn't? How come?

    I answered it in the post.



  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    Sovrath said:
    I answered it in the post.
    Unless you tried to imply they should start some other company that would make up for losses, you didn't.

    And I hope that wasn't a point you tried to make...
    ManWithNoTan
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,476
    Gdemami said:
    Sovrath said:
    I answered it in the post.
    Unless you tried to imply they should start some other company that would make up for losses, you didn't.

    And I hope that wasn't a point you tried to make...
    No it wasn't.

    People who create things, whether they are artists, developers, dancers, actors, usually walk the line of making a living and doing their "work."

    Perhaps the closest example in this case would be an architect. The architects I've know would work at a company doing grunt work all the while doing their own work on the side.

    For a developer they might work at a larger company only to take some time and do their own work.

    I've read of young developers working for indy projects just to bolster their resumes.

    For me, I work a regular job in the day so I can do my work in the evenings/weekends.
    GdemamiOctagon7711



  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,099
    When I am looking for a new game, if I see full loot PVP I automatically reject the game....Its just not something I am interested in, no matter if the game may even be good.. It seems to draw a certain type of player that I usually dont get along with very well.
    Ungooddelete5230
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    edited February 18
    Sovrath said:
    No it wasn't.
    You just did(again), how can you deny it? :-)
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Sovrath said:
    Gdemami said:
    Sovrath said:
    If I was making a game that "I" wanted to play, why would I make it for you if what you want is different from me?


    ...because devs have the bills to pay.
    That doesn't change the fact that they might want to break away and try their hand at something that they actually want to make.

    Artists of all types, people who create things, don't go into their respective craft "to pay the bills." Oh sure, everyone who does something creative would love to make something that pays the bills. But usually they do something extra that pays the bills so they can do the things that excite them, that made them want to get into their field.


    Yeah, but the publishers do not give a **** for the art, they care only for the profit. Look at BDO - how it started and where it ended. One more instanced arena in the "open world next generation sandbox game" :)
    Gdemami
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,174
    edited February 18
    skadad said:
    If so many wants them, why are they failing? 
    Go count all of the “loot” based pvp mmos that have been attempted and get the ratio of those that failed and those that stayed slive longer than 2 years. 

    Now count all all of the other mmos that have been attempted and apply the same ratio. 


    Just off the top of my head for the “successful” loot side you have Darkfall - DFO was alive 4 years and the only reason they shut it down was to launch DFUW which lived another 4+ years or so and two DFO revivals that are still going. Eve online everyone knows about. Albion, Asherons Call, Ultima Online.. I’m tired and can’t think of any more atm.

    You guys fill in the rest. 

    I really think opinions are heavily skewed about loot pvp games and their success rate, but I’m eager to be proven wrong if we can collectively get some REAL numbers here. 
    SteelhelmMardukk
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