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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

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  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,805
    Curious to what people would think of a system just like Eve’s in a fantasy setting. By that I mean it wouldn’t  be full loot because eve technically doesn’t have it. The ship and many parts get destroyed so the fantasy setting could be that the equipped items take damage, but don’t drop. In your npc cities there would be a magical protection disallowing contact (think stations). Outside of the city there would be guards that appeared and killed the attacker instantly. Kills in governed areas would give you negative alignment so guards would kill on sight basically banishing you from high security areas. 
    About as well as they handled Albion.  

    Since when it comes to the world and what players do in it it's one for one (ish).  (mindlessly mine/rat the same anomalies like thing).

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    There is horizontal progression in many games - EVE, Albion Online, the weapon upgrades in Dark Souls, the skills upgrades in Darkensang, even LoL - there are levels with huge power gaps, but the game does not need such - the combinations of abilities, spells, gear builds and runes, make a pretty good system for horizontal progression. It is harder to implement such - much easier is to avoid any balance with gear and level power gaps, but horizontal progression exists in the MMOs, it is possible and in fact much better. 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited February 17
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    I am not talking about monetary value and even that's not true.  Art is valued by what someone will pay for it.  Whether some pays 2 million fit a rare comic or 5 dollars for a hand carved statue in the Yucatan. 

    My point is that just because its pixels nobody wants to lose their 200 hours of art to harddrive crash anymore than painting in a fire.

    Equating choice into this means only slavery wrought work is worthwhile?
    Yes this makes more sense , i would suspect that one would be smart enough to back up there pixel art ...If someone was investing that much time 200 hours as you say into a some pixel art and were not backing up there progress as they went they are a dumbass for sure ...

        Unfortunatley once again .. you cannot back up the Mona Lisa ..

     So your analogy continues to trip over itself .. in RL and its Pixel life ..


    Exactly you back it up.  You find or want solution to not lose your pixels because you don't want to waste time.  If you can't back it up you are less likely to use that platform  even though it's just pixels.  

    Talking about monetary value is just a sidetrack.  
      Lol ... you are so misguided ... More goal posts .. None of this apply .. You cannot back up your Pixel toon in the OW pvp game .. if you get ganked there is no save feature .. why do you even go in these directions ... .. 

          So again your RL analogy does not apply ...
    Yes you can.  You can prevent losses by not having full loot or other things typically found games these games.  That is what typically happens.  This is why concentual PvP, no death penalty and no looting is so common in western markets.

    My real life anology does work as long as you take it for it is.  People don't want to waste time by losing everything in most situations games or real life.  People value their time investment.  You are bringing monetary value into which just is not what I am talking about.
    ummm .. you are the one that put the monetary value on it , i just argued it as silly much like your Basketball analogy/the pixel Art anaolgy, and any other RL situtation you put out there.. And i assume you realize that by changing the rule set to cocentual PVP , its no longer an OWPVP game that we were discussing to start with ... More goal post moving
    squibbly
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    I am not talking about monetary value and even that's not true.  Art is valued by what someone will pay for it.  Whether some pays 2 million fit a rare comic or 5 dollars for a hand carved statue in the Yucatan. 

    My point is that just because its pixels nobody wants to lose their 200 hours of art to harddrive crash anymore than painting in a fire.

    Equating choice into this means only slavery wrought work is worthwhile?
    Yes this makes more sense , i would suspect that one would be smart enough to back up there pixel art ...If someone was investing that much time 200 hours as you say into a some pixel art and were not backing up there progress as they went they are a dumbass for sure ...

        Unfortunatley once again .. you cannot back up the Mona Lisa ..

     So your analogy continues to trip over itself .. in RL and its Pixel life ..


    Exactly you back it up.  You find or want solution to not lose your pixels because you don't want to waste time.  If you can't back it up you are less likely to use that platform  even though it's just pixels.  

    Talking about monetary value is just a sidetrack.  
      Lol ... you are so misguided ... More goal posts .. None of this apply .. You cannot back up your Pixel toon in the OW pvp game .. if you get ganked there is no save feature .. why do you even go in these directions ... .. 

          So again your RL analogy does not apply ...
    Yes you can.  You can prevent losses by not having full loot or other things typically found games these games.  That is what typically happens.  This is why concentual PvP, no death penalty and no looting is so common in western markets.

    My real life anology does work as long as you take it for it is.  People don't want to waste time by losing everything in most situations games or real life.  People value their time investment.  You are bringing monetary value into which just is not what I am talking about.
    ummm .. you are the one that put the monetary value on it , i just argued it as silly much like your Basketball analogy/the pixel Art anaolgy, and any other RL situtation you put out there..
    It's not silly.  And again I never put money monetary value into the equation.  That was you from the stocks.  You brought up pixels. You started saying pixel art is not comparable to Mona Lisa in value.  

    Again I was talking about someone's time and money spent on wasted on a game that robs them of it.  You basically argued on your own about monetary value.  

    "So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?"  Worth while is not comparing monetary value but personal value.  So please stop.
    Steelhelmsquibbly
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scorchien said:
    ummm .. you are the one that put the monetary value on it , i just argued it as silly much like your Basketball analogy/the pixel Art anaolgy, and any other RL situtation you put out there.. And i assume you realize that by changing the rule set to cocentual PVP , its no longer an OWPVP game that we were discussing to start with ... More goal post moving
    Just to clear something up.. those Pixels do have monetary value.
    squibbly
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited February 17
    ummm No again you brought the Monetary value in with this comment .. go back and read the thread , i argued agaisnt that said it was silly with my stock comment ..


    "People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement."


        you seem confused ,  And interesting that you now want to ignore the fact that you want to invoke concentual PVP and remove the OWPVP from the entire discussion , which makes everyhting you said moot

    Gdemamisquibbly
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited February 17
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    ummm .. you are the one that put the monetary value on it , i just argued it as silly much like your Basketball analogy/the pixel Art anaolgy, and any other RL situtation you put out there.. And i assume you realize that by changing the rule set to cocentual PVP , its no longer an OWPVP game that we were discussing to start with ... More goal post moving
    Just to clear something up.. those Pixels do have monetary value.
    you would need to read the thread ...
    Gdemamisquibbly
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,164
    I'm playing legend of aria at the moment.  It have fool loot pvp, but there are almost no gankers.

    In order to gank people you have to become an outcast.  But after you become an outcast you'll be marked as red.  Which means all peaceful people can gank you without consequences...  

    In the end there are almost no gankers(at least on my server), because people don't want to pay the consequence to become an outlaw.


    AlBQuirkySteelhelm
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,172
    AAAMEOW said:
    I'm playing legend of aria at the moment.  It have fool loot pvp, but there are almost no gankers.

    In order to gank people you have to become an outcast.  But after you become an outcast you'll be marked as red.  Which means all peaceful people can gank you without consequences...  

    In the end there are almost no gankers(at least on my server), because people don't want to pay the consequence to become an outlaw.


    If the consequences are severe enough that almost no one does it then is there a point?

    serious question, not being an ass. 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    AAAMEOW said:
    I'm playing legend of aria at the moment.  It have fool loot pvp, but there are almost no gankers.

    In order to gank people you have to become an outcast.  But after you become an outcast you'll be marked as red.  Which means all peaceful people can gank you without consequences...  

    In the end there are almost no gankers(at least on my server), because people don't want to pay the consequence to become an outlaw.


    If the consequences are severe enough that almost no one does it then is there a point?

    serious question, not being an ass. 
    LoA is not a very good game from the jump , many PvPers are playing other games , im also curious as to where he says ..." my server " if its a private server , its meaningless..
    squibbly
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    edited February 18
    Scorchien said:
    ummm No again you brought the Monetary value in with this comment .. go back and read the thread , i argued agaisnt that said it was silly with my stock comment ..


    "People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement."


        you seem confused ,  And interesting that you now want to ignore the fact that you want to invoke concentual PVP and remove the OWPVP from the entire discussion , which makes everyhting you said moot

    Again, time and money investment is about time and money spent playing the game.  That is personal value to each player to their character and items. You brought in hard monetary value.  I just replied even that wasn't right in art. 

    Again, those were things mentioned that are used to protect people's time and money investment in the game since you said there were no way to protect it.  Not what I initially argued but what you veered into.  
    Steelhelmsquibbly
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited February 18
    Scorchien said:
    ummm No again you brought the Monetary value in with this comment .. go back and read the thread , i argued agaisnt that said it was silly with my stock comment ..


    "People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement."


        you seem confused ,  And interesting that you now want to ignore the fact that you want to invoke concentual PVP and remove the OWPVP from the entire discussion , which makes everyhting you said moot

    Again, time and money investment is about time and money spent playing the game.  That is personal value to each player to their character and items. You brought in hard monetary value.  I just replied even that wasn't right in art. 

    Again, those were things mentioned that are used to protect people's time and money investment in the game since you said there were no way to protect it.  Not what I initially argued but what you veered into.  
      Again ....YOU brought in monetary value hard or other wise ,,, , i argued that its silly ..

     And ive actually had enough of watching you bactrack, dance and remove everything you argue by invoking concentual pvp into an OWPVP game along with the rest of the silly RL rules you want to apply like Basketball etc...

      And you veered into these topics .. you veered into Monetary Value then you made a hard right into basketball rules , then you hit a bottleneck and went with pixel art , when that did not fly you introduced Concentual PvP into a OWPVP game as an answer , which is one of the siliest arguements ive ever seen on this site...

      Go back and read thru the thread i just responded to each of these topics that YOU veered into
    Gdemamisquibbly
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    ummm No again you brought the Monetary value in with this comment .. go back and read the thread , i argued agaisnt that said it was silly with my stock comment ..


    "People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement."


        you seem confused ,  And interesting that you now want to ignore the fact that you want to invoke concentual PVP and remove the OWPVP from the entire discussion , which makes everyhting you said moot

    Again, time and money investment is about time and money spent playing the game.  That is personal value to each player to their character and items. You brought in hard monetary value.  I just replied even that wasn't right in art. 

    Again, those were things mentioned that are used to protect people's time and money investment in the game since you said there were no way to protect it.  Not what I initially argued but what you veered into.  
      Again ....YOU brought in monetary value hard or other wise ,,, , i argued that its silly ..

     And ive actually had enough of watching you bactrack, dance and remove everything you argue by invoking concentual pvp into an OWPVP game along with the rest of the silly RL rules you want to apply like Basketball etc...
    1. I don't have to backtrack because again you dragged it to something I wasn't talking about.  Obviously if people use cash shops or subscriptions they put money into the game as well time. People generally don't want to waste money or lose their stuff.  It's not hard to follow yet you went on your tangent.

    2. I brought up not just consentual pvp but limited looting and lack of death penalty that protect players personal investment in the game. Again not just concentual PvP like you are trying to cloud the subject.  Again it's pretty clear unless you are being intentionally obtuse. 

    3. I brought up basketball to show how rules do effect how people behave in games. If you pay any attention to game design you realize games have rules to modify or limit player behavior, real life or video games.  
    Steelhelmsquibbly
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,164
    edited February 18



    If the consequences are severe enough that almost no one does it then is there a point?

    serious question, not being an ass. 
    I'm not sure how many other consequence it is to be a ganker in Legend of Aria.  I believe guard also attack you in safe zone.  You also can't use the resurrect stone in safe zone.

    But you do have a point, there are just so few gankers because the penalty is a bit harsh.  On the other hand if the penalty of being a ganker is to let other people know you are a ganker and can freely PK you.  It is a bit fair game.

    That being said, there are probably so few gankers because most people stay in safe zone.  So gankers have a hard time finding people to gank.  
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited February 18
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    ummm No again you brought the Monetary value in with this comment .. go back and read the thread , i argued agaisnt that said it was silly with my stock comment ..


    "People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement."


        you seem confused ,  And interesting that you now want to ignore the fact that you want to invoke concentual PVP and remove the OWPVP from the entire discussion , which makes everyhting you said moot

    Again, time and money investment is about time and money spent playing the game.  That is personal value to each player to their character and items. You brought in hard monetary value.  I just replied even that wasn't right in art. 

    Again, those were things mentioned that are used to protect people's time and money investment in the game since you said there were no way to protect it.  Not what I initially argued but what you veered into.  
      Again ....YOU brought in monetary value hard or other wise ,,, , i argued that its silly ..

     And ive actually had enough of watching you bactrack, dance and remove everything you argue by invoking concentual pvp into an OWPVP game along with the rest of the silly RL rules you want to apply like Basketball etc...
    1. I don't have to backtrack because again you dragged it to something I wasn't talking about.  Obviously if people use cash shops or subscriptions they put money into the game as well time. People generally don't want to waste money or lose their stuff.  It's not hard to follow yet you went on your tangent.

    2. I brought up not just consentual pvp but limited looting and lack of death penalty that protect players personal investment in the game. Again not just concentual PvP like you are trying to cloud the subject.  Again it's pretty clear unless you are being intentionally obtuse. 

    3. I brought up basketball to show how rules do effect how people behave in games. If you pay any attention to game design you realize games have rules to modify or limit player behavior, real life or video games.  
       Lol .. stopi t.. you veered into all these things ,  you brought the monetary value in , then you made a hard right into Basketball rules , when you hit that bottleneck you brought us to Pixel Art , then you drug us to one of the silliest arguemnets ive ever seen by introducing Concentual PvP as an answer to OWPVP ...  wtf ...maybe read your own thread again ...The thread is about OWPVP with full loot please enlighten us tell us how concentual pvp(in any way shape or form) fits into that

        I got RL stuff to attend to , now i need to find a way to apply my gaming rule sets to RL ..maybe i could hire a goblin minion to put the dog out for me
       

     
                 
    Gdemamisquibbly
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    AAAMEOW said:
    I'm playing legend of aria at the moment.  It have fool loot pvp, but there are almost no gankers.

    In order to gank people you have to become an outcast.  But after you become an outcast you'll be marked as red.  Which means all peaceful people can gank you without consequences...  

    In the end there are almost no gankers(at least on my server), because people don't want to pay the consequence to become an outlaw.


    If the consequences are severe enough that almost no one does it then is there a point?

    serious question, not being an ass. 
    Legit Answer.

    Because a lot of time the PvP is supposed to enhance the game, adding in a means for players to resolve their conflicts with each other, adding a sense of risk, I think most developers look at the PvP as a means to augment the challenge, not an open invite to fill the game world with sociopaths that want to kill for the giggles of it..


  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    ummm No again you brought the Monetary value in with this comment .. go back and read the thread , i argued agaisnt that said it was silly with my stock comment ..


    "People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement."


        you seem confused ,  And interesting that you now want to ignore the fact that you want to invoke concentual PVP and remove the OWPVP from the entire discussion , which makes everyhting you said moot

    Again, time and money investment is about time and money spent playing the game.  That is personal value to each player to their character and items. You brought in hard monetary value.  I just replied even that wasn't right in art. 

    Again, those were things mentioned that are used to protect people's time and money investment in the game since you said there were no way to protect it.  Not what I initially argued but what you veered into.  
      Again ....YOU brought in monetary value hard or other wise ,,, , i argued that its silly ..

     And ive actually had enough of watching you bactrack, dance and remove everything you argue by invoking concentual pvp into an OWPVP game along with the rest of the silly RL rules you want to apply like Basketball etc...
    1. I don't have to backtrack because again you dragged it to something I wasn't talking about.  Obviously if people use cash shops or subscriptions they put money into the game as well time. People generally don't want to waste money or lose their stuff.  It's not hard to follow yet you went on your tangent.

    2. I brought up not just consentual pvp but limited looting and lack of death penalty that protect players personal investment in the game. Again not just concentual PvP like you are trying to cloud the subject.  Again it's pretty clear unless you are being intentionally obtuse. 

    3. I brought up basketball to show how rules do effect how people behave in games. If you pay any attention to game design you realize games have rules to modify or limit player behavior, real life or video games.  
       Lol .. stopi t.. you veered into all these things ,  you brought the monetary value in , then you made a hard right into Basketball rules , when you hit that bottleneck you brought us to Pixel Art , then you drug us to one of the silliest arguemnets ive ever seen by introducing Concentual PvP as an answer to OWPVP ...  wtf ...maybe read your own thread again ...

        I got RL stuff to attend to , now i need to find a way to apply my gaming rule sets to RL ..maybe i could hire a goblin minion to put the dog out for me

                 
    Yes because gaming has time and money spent on a game.  Has nothing to do with monetary value you keep rambling about.  Personal value and investment... say it with me.

    You are just being obtuse because I seriously doubt you lack simple understanding of what personal investment into a hobby means. If you buy tools, classes and create something worthless to anyone else doesn't mean it doesn't have personal value to you.  

    I never said consentual PvP was a solution.  It was an example how devleopers protect people's personal investments along with limited looting or lack of death penalty.  Not hard to follow.

    I brought up pixel art and time spent doing it having personal value of time spent.  You compared it to the Mona Lisa which has nothing to do personal value. This again is response to you rambling about pixels.

    I said games.  All games have rules to get desired player behavior.  Not real life chores.  But it is clear your are just being obtuse.  Personal value is the key word.  
    Steelhelmsquibbly
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    ummm No again you brought the Monetary value in with this comment .. go back and read the thread , i argued agaisnt that said it was silly with my stock comment ..


    "People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement."


        you seem confused ,  And interesting that you now want to ignore the fact that you want to invoke concentual PVP and remove the OWPVP from the entire discussion , which makes everyhting you said moot

    Again, time and money investment is about time and money spent playing the game.  That is personal value to each player to their character and items. You brought in hard monetary value.  I just replied even that wasn't right in art. 

    Again, those were things mentioned that are used to protect people's time and money investment in the game since you said there were no way to protect it.  Not what I initially argued but what you veered into.  
      Again ....YOU brought in monetary value hard or other wise ,,, , i argued that its silly ..

     And ive actually had enough of watching you bactrack, dance and remove everything you argue by invoking concentual pvp into an OWPVP game along with the rest of the silly RL rules you want to apply like Basketball etc...
    1. I don't have to backtrack because again you dragged it to something I wasn't talking about.  Obviously if people use cash shops or subscriptions they put money into the game as well time. People generally don't want to waste money or lose their stuff.  It's not hard to follow yet you went on your tangent.

    2. I brought up not just consentual pvp but limited looting and lack of death penalty that protect players personal investment in the game. Again not just concentual PvP like you are trying to cloud the subject.  Again it's pretty clear unless you are being intentionally obtuse. 

    3. I brought up basketball to show how rules do effect how people behave in games. If you pay any attention to game design you realize games have rules to modify or limit player behavior, real life or video games.  
       Lol .. stopi t.. you veered into all these things ,  you brought the monetary value in , then you made a hard right into Basketball rules , when you hit that bottleneck you brought us to Pixel Art , then you drug us to one of the silliest arguemnets ive ever seen by introducing Concentual PvP as an answer to OWPVP ...  wtf ...maybe read your own thread again ...

        I got RL stuff to attend to , now i need to find a way to apply my gaming rule sets to RL ..maybe i could hire a goblin minion to put the dog out for me

                 
    Yes because gaming has time and money spent on a game.  Has nothing to do with monetary value you keep rambling about.  Personal value and investment... say it with me.

    You are just being obtuse because I seriously doubt you lack simple understanding of what personal investment into a hobby means. If you buy tools, classes and create something worthless to anyone else doesn't mean it doesn't have personal value to you.  

    I never said consentual PvP was a solution.  It was an example how devleopers protect people's personal investments along with limited looting or lack of death penalty.  Not hard to follow.

    I brought up pixel art and time spent doing it having personal value of time spent.  You compared it to the Mona Lisa which has nothing to do personal value. This again is response to you rambling about pixels.

    I said games.  All games have rules to get desired player behavior.  Not real life chores.  But it is clear your are just being obtuse.  Personal value is the key word.  
    You really need to reread the thread a simple understanding of what you wrote would help ...

      Now please point me to the OWPVP game that introduced concentual PVP to protect player investment

         and again i did not put a monatary value on any of it at ll , actually quite the opposite, hence my ex of what a real investment in stocks ,,


       Now if it helps the irony of it is , i believed in my hobby so much that in 2005 invested hundreds of thousand in Vivendi at 6 $ a share when they owned Blizz, then again in EA in 08 at 15 a share , and in FCMKF , SE , Nokia , AMD .. etc , i literally at this moment have millions invested in AAA and indie devs some whose games you play or are anticipating , i speak one on one with devs all the time ..

         Thats what an investment is ... not spending .35 a day to play a game , that is no different than going to the movies , its money spent on a hobby , not an investment , that was my point , it has no value once its used just like that movie ticket


     
    ikcinGdemamisquibbly
  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,213
    edited February 18
    The most fun I've had with an MMO was Darkfall UW and I'm a PvE'r.  I think inventory loot and armor taking a big hit on death, is the answer.  I don't feel like going into the details but there was a reason to PvE and a reason to PvP occasionally (capture/defend player owned cities).  Losing your home base was a big deal.  Geography mattered, mob loot mattered, alliances mattered, sound mattered, sea battles and risk vs reward.  The only change would have been to inventory loot, possibly lower the skill ceiling a tiny bit and armor big durability loss on death.  There were also safe zones and tiered mob loot areas, with connected territory control improving loot.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Personal value.  Doesn't matter what you think is an invest. Doesn't matter how much money you invest.  It is what the person values.

    Again you are looking at this as monetary value issue.  Repeat after me personal value.  Even if it includes money it is still about how the person values his time and money not how much he spends.  Do you understand?

    I brought up basketball to show how rules change player behavior. If you leave the bench during a fight you automatically get suspended in the NBA.  Again this is about modifying player behavior. Severity of results nor real life vs. virtual matter.  Same could apply to virtual basketball game.  You again go left field with pixels and pixel vaginas and walking dogs.

    Show me exactly said what you are saying. I am only entertaining this because I am bored while planning a trip.  
    Steelhelm
  • itsoveritsover Member UncommonPosts: 350
    im never fan of full loot pvp mmo, when ever full loot mmo, i just dont play . I like casually

    image
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    ummm No again you brought the Monetary value in with this comment .. go back and read the thread , i argued agaisnt that said it was silly with my stock comment ..


    "People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement."


        you seem confused ,  And interesting that you now want to ignore the fact that you want to invoke concentual PVP and remove the OWPVP from the entire discussion , which makes everyhting you said moot

    Again, time and money investment is about time and money spent playing the game.  That is personal value to each player to their character and items. You brought in hard monetary value.  I just replied even that wasn't right in art. 

    Again, those were things mentioned that are used to protect people's time and money investment in the game since you said there were no way to protect it.  Not what I initially argued but what you veered into.  
      Again ....YOU brought in monetary value hard or other wise ,,, , i argued that its silly ..

     And ive actually had enough of watching you bactrack, dance and remove everything you argue by invoking concentual pvp into an OWPVP game along with the rest of the silly RL rules you want to apply like Basketball etc...
    1. I don't have to backtrack because again you dragged it to something I wasn't talking about.  Obviously if people use cash shops or subscriptions they put money into the game as well time. People generally don't want to waste money or lose their stuff.  It's not hard to follow yet you went on your tangent.

    2. I brought up not just consentual pvp but limited looting and lack of death penalty that protect players personal investment in the game. Again not just concentual PvP like you are trying to cloud the subject.  Again it's pretty clear unless you are being intentionally obtuse. 

    3. I brought up basketball to show how rules do effect how people behave in games. If you pay any attention to game design you realize games have rules to modify or limit player behavior, real life or video games.  
       Lol .. stopi t.. you veered into all these things ,  you brought the monetary value in , then you made a hard right into Basketball rules , when you hit that bottleneck you brought us to Pixel Art , then you drug us to one of the silliest arguemnets ive ever seen by introducing Concentual PvP as an answer to OWPVP ...  wtf ...maybe read your own thread again ...

        I got RL stuff to attend to , now i need to find a way to apply my gaming rule sets to RL ..maybe i could hire a goblin minion to put the dog out for me

                 
    Yes because gaming has time and money spent on a game.  Has nothing to do with monetary value you keep rambling about.  Personal value and investment... say it with me.

    You are just being obtuse because I seriously doubt you lack simple understanding of what personal investment into a hobby means. If you buy tools, classes and create something worthless to anyone else doesn't mean it doesn't have personal value to you.  

    I never said consentual PvP was a solution.  It was an example how devleopers protect people's personal investments along with limited looting or lack of death penalty.  Not hard to follow.

    I brought up pixel art and time spent doing it having personal value of time spent.  You compared it to the Mona Lisa which has nothing to do personal value. This again is response to you rambling about pixels.

    I said games.  All games have rules to get desired player behavior.  Not real life chores.  But it is clear your are just being obtuse.  Personal value is the key word.  
    You really need to reread the thread a simple understanding of what you wrote would help ...

      Now please point me to the OWPVP game that introduced concentual PVP to protect player investment

         and again i did not put a monatary value on any of it at ll , actually quite the opposite, hence my ex of what a real investment in stocks ,,


       Now if it helps the irony of it is , i believed in my hobby so much that in 2005 invested hundreds of thousand in Vivendi at 6 $ a share when they owned Blizz, then again in EA in 08 at 15 a share , and in FCMKF , SE , Nokia , AMD .. etc , i literally at this moment have millions invested in AAA and indie devs some whose games you play or are anticipating , i speak one on one with devs all the time ..

         Thats what an investment is ... not spending .35 a day to play a game , that is no different than going to the movies , its money spent on a hobby , not an investment , that was my point , it has no value once its used just like that movie ticket


     
    What you have listed is a type of investment, you have invested into a company. But that is not the only kind of investment.

    There are many kinds of investments and many ways to invest yourself into something.

    A simple example, I can invest time and money into my car, for example, and in return it serves me well.

    Just like I can invest blood, sweat and tears, and huge chunk of my life, and money, and sanity, and a lot of other things I never thought I would, into my children, ensuring their future, and my ROI on that is far more a personal sense of seeing them become better.

    Just like I can invest time and money into my War Hammer 40K figurines. I buy them, I paint them, and I have a nice 3500 point army of Chaos and 2000 point army of Tau. yes, that is still me investing into my hobby, I do not need to buy stock in Games Workshop to say I am investing into my hobby, and I don't take well to anyone playing with my mini's and even less f were to try and steal or break them.

    So yes.. spending $0.35 a day is a type of investment, as they expect to a return for that $0.35 a day, mainly in the form of digital loot and game time.

    Now if you talk to Devs all the time, and if you want ANY of the companies that you bought stock in, to not crash and burn.. you better tell them that they damn well better respect that player investment of $0.35 a day, if they want their game to survive.
    Vermillion_RaventhalAlBQuirkysquibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    It's not silly.  And again I never put money monetary value into the equation.  That was you from the stocks.  You brought up pixels. You started saying pixel art is not comparable to Mona Lisa in value.  

    Again I was talking about someone's time and money spent on wasted on a game that robs them of it.  You basically argued on your own about monetary value.  

    "So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?"  Worth while is not comparing monetary value but personal value.  So please stop.
    I will argue with that. The game cannot steal your time and money. The risk of loss is part of the game, part of the fun, part of the entertainment - is'n it? So loot, or any other risk is not stealing from you. Except if you play with the idea that the win is guaranteed for you and for every player. There are that kind of games, many of them, but even when they call themselves MMOs, it is doubtful if they are really such. When all the players only win - there is not competition, no need of cooperation, and the multiplayer part is limited to sharing of a map.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    ikcin said:
    The risk of loss is part of the game, part of the fun, part of the entertainment - is'n it?
    No it's not, and that is the whole point of this topic, why are Indie Game Companies making games that are neither fun or entertaining.

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,172
    edited February 18
    Ungood said:
    ikcin said:
    The risk of loss is part of the game, part of the fun, part of the entertainment - is'n it?
    No it's not, and that is the whole point of this topic, why are Indie Game Companies making games that are neither fun or entertaining.

    That’s not even remotely what this thread asked.

    And yes it is fun. 
    Phaserlight
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