Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

1235729

Comments

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,647
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    really .. does not apply ..

     If you fight in  Basketball one could actually break your fucking nose , or worse , actually kill you


     A bit different from bruising ones Pixel Vagina
    Why would it not apply? Of course the regulatory mechanisms are different than the ones in the real life, but we are talking about the concept, the principle.

    They have the potential to regulate particular type of behavior in games just like in real life.

    Ad absurdum example - imagine a mechanism that deletes your character at the moment you attack an innocent player minding his own business. I think with this stupid regulation in place, the game would be as peaceful as one where FFA OW PVP is disabled. Why? Because of the psychological effect of the regulatory mechanism in place.


    AlBQuirkyAmarantharSteelhelm
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited February 17
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    GdemamiSteelhelmsquibblyKyleran
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    AlBQuirkyCryomatrixSteelhelm
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    squibbly
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    AlBQuirkyCryomatrixSteelhelm
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited February 17
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    GdemamiSteelhelmsquibbly
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,805
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    If your goal is to just share it with a bunch of people, it probably has more value than a non-physical thing.  Since you can just spam that thing on DeviantArt/Tumbler/Reddit/Whatever and get a bit of attention that way.

    Value isn't just based on what society values it at.   It's also based on the person interacting with the "whatever".
    AlBQuirkysquibbly

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    I am not talking about monetary value and even that's not true.  Art is valued by what someone will pay for it.  Whether some pays 2 million fit a rare comic or 5 dollars for a hand carved statue in the Yucatan. 

    My point is that just because its pixels nobody wants to lose their 200 hours of art to harddrive crash anymore than painting in a fire.

    Equating choice into this means only slavery wrought work is worthwhile?
    AlBQuirkysquibbly
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,585
    PVP is the most popular form of online play... by far !

    Just not in MMORPG's... :wink:

    Attempts at making virtual worlds always fail, because some players like to control their risk (PVE), which means they'll avoid games where that's not possible (non-consensual PVP).
    I would actually like PvP as the "real world" has it, but games totally miss "the consequences" that the real has. Consequences like "laws" that protect others. Most MMOs with PvP that I have seen are just anarchy unleashed. That is NOT fun in my book.

    People talk about "risk vs reward" like all parties are risking anything equally. The over-leveled, over-geared, over-grouped PvP'er risks what, again? Ever notice in PvP MMOs that it is a rare sight to see a PvP fight where neither player has a clear cut advantage? Where is this "PK" risk people talk about?

    This is one of those situations where the real world does not translate well into game worlds. If a neighbor sees my house getting robbed, they can (don't have to) call the police. If someone shoots another human being, police come running. If you're lucky enough to live in Gotham City, Batman is on call! Oh, wait... Real World, Al!

    My point being, I wouldn't mind a little unexpected added conflict, if there were consequences for the assailant.
    denitercoretex666

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,585
    Maurgrim said:
    rodarin said:
    full loot mmos are fun, not gonna lie.

    that's why all these BR games are so popular. it's basically a full loot pvp game with no grinding. full loot straight to the action. full loot pvp is super fun when done right. 

    the problem becomes when you try and merge grinding/leveling with full loot ganking. when you force pvp onto people that just want to pve. 


    i agree that EvE online found the best balance to date. can't think of a single game that did it better. Aion came close with their rift system. for the life of me cannot understand why no other mmo developer hasn't gone the way of EvE. it's just so perfect. it allows all types of playstyles to interact, without forcing either pvpers or pvers onto each other. you can literally choose how much risk you want to take, and those players hell bent on doing nothing but ganking are forced to stay far away from pvers. 

    the only issue that EvE has really is the fact that you are always a ship. such a shame that they abandoned walking in space stations. that was truly the next step for that game.  


    Eve is a complete grindfest and spread sheet game. The number of players in it are also dubious. I have said it a dozen times now the population is probably a fifth of what it looks like, meaning the average number of accounts for each individual is 5. Obviously not everyone has 5 but some guys have 10 or 20.

    Its also plex driven that big surge a few years ago has literally kept the game populated. I dont know how many people are joining or rejoining but the group I played with, maybe 30 people havent been playing in quite awhile. Its that niche game where the hardcores will play it to death and pay with in game currency which if you have the experience is ridiculously easy to make. Even with Plex being outrageous now compared to what they used to be the amount of isk in the game is also equally ridiculous.

    As far as BRs go they feed the trolls. They also feed the ADD insta gratification  mentality everyone wants now. While too many games are grinding and make you feel like its a 'job' many are also making it too easy to 'achieve' things. Everyone talks about 'balance' with MMOs but the real balance issues are class based but how the game is designed and developed between grind and 'easy mode'. BRs despite their huge interest now are a passing fad. Once the next big thing comes along and the streamers and content creators all move on to that these BRs will be nothing. You see it now within the genre. Apex came out and everyone has flocked to it. PuBG used to be king fortnite came out and people went to that game now its APex. no 'brand' loyalty and definitely showing the ADD mentality of the players of these games. None of them are particularly good or even decent. But theyre the flavor of the month and someone that they watch play it tries to explain the tiny things that make one 'better' than the other. Which doesnt mean its good it just does things differently. But in the end theyre all so similar that depending on who is streaming it that will be the one that has the most going on.

    Thats why when theyre new people flock to them because everything IS new and not a grind or easy there is no point of reference until you play awhile. Some are so obviously cut and pastes from other games most people dont need any time ot see their short comings.

    But ANY MMO that wants to come out cant be full anything all the time be it PvE or PvE. With maps getting bigger and bigger there is really no reason not to have the tried and true 'zone' method. Some zones are safe others arent. Its pretty simple. Any MMO that ever had any sort of longer lasting success has employed that system. Even in seemless 'openworld' maps its not hard to do it. Archeage did it fairly well. Only thing issue htere is their zones had chokepoint and entry spots you couldnt just go into a zone anywhere freely. So it was easier to know when you were getting close to a 'bad' area.

    Have only one account and never used any spreadsheet and I have hundreds of billions of isk.
    The grind is what you make it, you can do plenty of things in eve solo without feeling it as a grind.


    My experience with EVE is VERY limited, so take this as it is. I tried their "free 14 day trial." I loaded it up, created a ship, set my skills to learn and logged off. Nothing else I COULD do. Never logged back in.

    I want to PLAY a game, not have it play when I'm not there.
    deniter

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    edited February 17
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    I am not talking about monetary value and even that's not true.  Art is valued by what someone will pay for it.  Whether some pays 2 million fit a rare comic or 5 dollars for a hand carved statue in the Yucatan. 

    My point is that just because its pixels nobody wants to lose their 200 hours of art to harddrive crash anymore than painting in a fire.

    Equating choice into this means only slavery wrought work is worthwhile?
    Yes this makes more sense , i would suspect that one would be smart enough to back up there pixel art ...If someone was investing that much time 200 hours as you say into a some pixel art and were not backing up there progress as they went they are a dumbass for sure ...

        Unfortunatley once again .. you cannot back up the Mona Lisa ..

     So your analogy continues to trip over itself .. in RL and its Pixel life ..

      So back to where we started , you cannot apply RL rules to a game , no matter how many goal posts you try to move to do it ... imo


    Steelhelmsquibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Are we still talking about games?

    Why would it not apply? Of course the regulatory mechanisms are different than the ones in the real life, but we are talking about the concept, the principle.

    They have the potential to regulate particular type of behavior in games just like in real life.

    Ad absurdum example - imagine a mechanism that deletes your character at the moment you attack an innocent player minding his own business. I think with this stupid regulation in place, the game would be as peaceful as one where FFA OW PVP is disabled. Why? Because of the psychological effect of the regulatory mechanism in place.

    Let say I farm mobs at some place. And you come and start to KS. I say: Stop KS! You answer: Mobs are not yours, this is not KS. So I PK you, and get the penalty. Then you come again, so more penalties for me. And I leave the spot. You win by avoiding the competition. A common case.

    If you play a game with OW PvP, you have to accept there will be OW PvP. As if your football team enters into league you have to accept there will be matches with other teams. Some of them will be much stronger, but you cannot beat them by avoiding the match.

    Yes, the football has rules. But we are talking about something different. In the perfect MMORPG, there is not need of punishment as every attack will lead to PvP. There will not be a PK case. 

    But there are issues like - players are immortal, they will try to exploit the rules, many of them will try to avoid the competition if the win is not guaranteed and vice versa - to attack when they think the win is guaranteed. So the game needs penalties. Still the penalties must enforce the PvP, instead to prevent it. In general if the competition is balanced and there is an adequate death penalty, you do not need to punish the PK, as the PK will not happen. When you are attacked, you will fight back. But most players will not attack you afraid from the death penalty. 

    So, what I'm saying is - your claim that the PK penalty is a must. But it is not. The PK - so when a player allows his character to be killed or cannot retaliate - shows issues with the game design. And you do not need a lazy decision as punishing one of the players involved. You need to fix these issues.
    ScorchienSteelhelm
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    I am not talking about monetary value and even that's not true.  Art is valued by what someone will pay for it.  Whether some pays 2 million fit a rare comic or 5 dollars for a hand carved statue in the Yucatan. 

    My point is that just because its pixels nobody wants to lose their 200 hours of art to harddrive crash anymore than painting in a fire.

    Equating choice into this means only slavery wrought work is worthwhile?
    Yes this makes more sense , i would suspect that one would be smart enough to back up there pixel art ...If someone was investing that much time 200 hours as you say into a some pixel art and were not backing up there progress as they went they are a dumbass for sure ...

        Unfortunatley once again .. you cannot back up the Mona Lisa ..

     So your analogy continues to trip over itself .. in RL and its Pixel life ..


    Exactly you back it up.  You find or want solution to not lose your pixels because you don't want to waste time.  If you can't back it up you are less likely to use that platform  even though it's just pixels.  

    Talking about monetary value is just a sidetrack.  
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,913
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    I am not talking about monetary value and even that's not true.  Art is valued by what someone will pay for it.  Whether some pays 2 million fit a rare comic or 5 dollars for a hand carved statue in the Yucatan. 

    My point is that just because its pixels nobody wants to lose their 200 hours of art to harddrive crash anymore than painting in a fire.

    Equating choice into this means only slavery wrought work is worthwhile?
    Yes this makes more sense , i would suspect that one would be smart enough to back up there pixel art ...If someone was investing that much time 200 hours as you say into a some pixel art and were not backing up there progress as they went they are a dumbass for sure ...

        Unfortunatley once again .. you cannot back up the Mona Lisa ..

     So your analogy continues to trip over itself .. in RL and its Pixel life ..


    Exactly you back it up.  You find or want solution to not lose your pixels because you don't want to waste time.  If you can't back it up you are less likely to use that platform  even though it's just pixels.  

    Talking about monetary value is just a sidetrack.  
      Lol ... you are so misguided ... More goal posts .. None of this apply .. You cannot back up your Pixel toon in the OW pvp game .. if you get ganked there is no save feature .. why do you even go in these directions ... .. 

          So again your RL analogy does not apply ...
    squibbly
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,647
    edited February 17
    ikcin said:
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Are we still talking about games?

    Why would it not apply? Of course the regulatory mechanisms are different than the ones in the real life, but we are talking about the concept, the principle.

    They have the potential to regulate particular type of behavior in games just like in real life.

    Ad absurdum example - imagine a mechanism that deletes your character at the moment you attack an innocent player minding his own business. I think with this stupid regulation in place, the game would be as peaceful as one where FFA OW PVP is disabled. Why? Because of the psychological effect of the regulatory mechanism in place.

    Let say I farm mobs at some place. And you come and start to KS. I say: Stop KS! You answer: Mobs are not yours, this is not KS. So I PK you, and get the penalty. Then you come again, so more penalties for me. And I leave the spot. You win by avoiding the competition. A common case.

    If you play a game with OW PvP, you have to accept there will be OW PvP. As if your football team enters into league you have to accept there will be matches with other teams. Some of them will be much stronger, but you cannot beat them by avoiding the match.

    Yes, the football has rules. But we are talking about something different. In the perfect MMORPG, there is not need of punishment as every attack will lead to PvP. There will not be a PK case. 

    But there are issues like - players are immortal, they will try to exploit the rules, many of them will try to avoid the competition if the win is not guaranteed and vice versa - to attack when they think the win is guaranteed. So the game needs penalties. Still the penalties must enforce the PvP, instead to prevent it. In general if the competition is balanced and there is an adequate death penalty, you do not need to punish the PK, as the PK will not happen. When you are attacked, you will fight back. But most players will not attack you afraid from the death penalty. 

    So, what I'm saying is - your claim that the PK penalty is a must. But it is not. The PK - so when a player allows his character to be killed or cannot retaliate - shows issues with the game design. And you do not need a lazy decision as punishing one of the players involved. You need to fix these issues.
    I am not saying regulation is a "must". Its presence and severity should depend on what the developer wants to achieve with the game, what overall gaming experience they are aiming for.

    You KS example could be a relevant one, but it is also subject to game rules. I dont want to get into this level of detail, but in your specific KS scenario, the person could be also significantly affected by the fact that you killed them, so that they think twice before coming back. Also, KS could also be somehow regulated, so that it would not even have to get to a point where you would need to kill someone KSing or getting penalty for it.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    ...in your specific KS scenario, the person could be also significantly affected by the fact that you killed them, so that they think twice before coming back. Also, KS could also be somehow regulated, so that it would not even have to get to a point where you would need to kill someone KSing or getting penalty for it.
    Indeed. If the death penalty is adequate and there are not huge power gaps, you do not need PK rules. Also you do not need KS rules as the players will avoid conflicts if the reward does not worth it.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    AlBQuirky said:
    My experience with EVE is VERY limited, so take this as it is. I tried their "free 14 day trial." I loaded it up, created a ship, set my skills to learn and logged off. Nothing else I COULD do. Never logged back in.

    I want to PLAY a game, not have it play when I'm not there.
    You just have wrong mindset, you are expecting progression, you are expecting that your play is linked with advancement - levels, gear, etc.

    That's not how the game works, it is quite different and takes some time to get used to ?
    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,585
    Gdemami said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    My experience with EVE is VERY limited, so take this as it is. I tried their "free 14 day trial." I loaded it up, created a ship, set my skills to learn and logged off. Nothing else I COULD do. Never logged back in.

    I want to PLAY a game, not have it play when I'm not there.
    You just have wrong mindset, you are expecting progression, you are expecting that your play is linked with advancement - levels, gear, etc.

    That's not how the game works, it is quite different and takes some time to get used to ?
    I'll admit to that :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,585
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    I am not talking about monetary value and even that's not true.  Art is valued by what someone will pay for it.  Whether some pays 2 million fit a rare comic or 5 dollars for a hand carved statue in the Yucatan. 

    My point is that just because its pixels nobody wants to lose their 200 hours of art to harddrive crash anymore than painting in a fire.

    Equating choice into this means only slavery wrought work is worthwhile?
    Yes this makes more sense , i would suspect that one would be smart enough to back up there pixel art ...If someone was investing that much time 200 hours as you say into a some pixel art and were not backing up there progress as they went they are a dumbass for sure ...

        Unfortunatley once again .. you cannot back up the Mona Lisa ..

     So your analogy continues to trip over itself .. in RL and its Pixel life ..


    Exactly you back it up.  You find or want solution to not lose your pixels because you don't want to waste time.  If you can't back it up you are less likely to use that platform  even though it's just pixels.  

    Talking about monetary value is just a sidetrack.  
    Know what's really cool about "pixel art?" PRINT it out and it becomes "real" art!

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,424
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    really .. does not apply ..

     If you fight in  Basketball one could actually break your fucking nose , or worse , actually kill you


     A bit different from bruising ones Pixel Vagina
    Why would it not apply? Of course the regulatory mechanisms are different than the ones in the real life, but we are talking about the concept, the principle.

    They have the potential to regulate particular type of behavior in games just like in real life.

    Ad absurdum example - imagine a mechanism that deletes your character at the moment you attack an innocent player minding his own business. I think with this stupid regulation in place, the game would be as peaceful as one where FFA OW PVP is disabled. Why? Because of the psychological effect of the regulatory mechanism in place.


    It is very difficult to put any kind of meaningful consequences into a game, consequences that are not easily countered by the off-switch.  A game only impacts the character in the game, and not the person providing that punishable behavior.

    And actually, that ad absurdum example may not be all that absurd -- it actually attaches the punishment to the perpetrator.



    GdemamiAlBQuirkyAmaranthar

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,647
    edited February 17
    Mendel said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    really .. does not apply ..

     If you fight in  Basketball one could actually break your fucking nose , or worse , actually kill you


     A bit different from bruising ones Pixel Vagina
    Why would it not apply? Of course the regulatory mechanisms are different than the ones in the real life, but we are talking about the concept, the principle.

    They have the potential to regulate particular type of behavior in games just like in real life.

    Ad absurdum example - imagine a mechanism that deletes your character at the moment you attack an innocent player minding his own business. I think with this stupid regulation in place, the game would be as peaceful as one where FFA OW PVP is disabled. Why? Because of the psychological effect of the regulatory mechanism in place.


    It is very difficult to put any kind of meaningful consequences into a game, consequences that are not easily countered by the off-switch.  A game only impacts the character in the game, and not the person providing that punishable behavior.



    I do not disagree with this. Luckily for me, I am not a game developer, so that I do not need to design them :).

    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    To answer the OP's question, why do game makers build MMO's with Full Loot PvP. Well it's not an easy answer, but, I imagine that it dates back to the Era of MUD's, and AOL games, which were often Perma-Death Full Loot Open World PvP games, and the Trolls/Ganker were often kept in check by small populations where everyone knew each other, and tight knit teams of friends, where if you killed one of theirs, there would be retribution. 

    This did not translate well into larger games. Simply put, it does not work on the massive scale. But I imagine some developers have the same brand of rose colored glasses that gamers have on, as they fondly reminisce about many of the archaic games they used play. Some games like EvE have survived, because again, they have a very old, established community,  that started small and tight knit, and slowly grew.

    MOBA, FPS, Arena Games and the like, are solid PvP, but that is what they are, PvP. Win or Lose, you get some reward that cannot be taken from you, and you get to go at it again.

    With all that said.

    The reason why, all these Open World, Full Loot, PvP MMo's fail, is for one simple reason, no one is going to invest their time, effort and real money into a game, just to have someone else be able to take it all from them.

    Now, what about Survival Games. Well, Survival Games are Often Perma-Death, and tend to attract very Hard Core PvP players, players looking to claw and kill their way to to the top, and find that kind of brutality fun, but as I said, No one Wants to Lose everything they worked for, and that includes trolls, assholes and gankers. They are not going to put in time just to risk losing it all as well, and again, the people going to survival games are not looking for an easy game, they are looking to kill and win, which is a very unfriendly environment for trolls, who just want easy targets.


    Gdemami
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    People are protecting their time and money investment.  While I do think people are thin skinned it is not unfathomable that people don't want to waste hours to give someone else 5 seconds of amusement.
    LOl , cmon man Time and Investment ... its a fucking game for Gods sake .. ..

      The Time is negligible , they chose to play a game as there Hobby with there time .. If one thinks there would be wiser ways to Invest there time , Playing a game certainly is not a wise choice...

       Buying 500k shares of a Stock is an investment that you would be wise to watch and protect , your pixels in a game are not an investment in any way ..

      If a person is so overwhelming emotionally invested in there pixels that they become distressed by Pixel death they really need to get off the fucking PC and get there life togehter
    Depends on what you value.  Again time and money invested into your hobby is your personal opinion.  

    It's like saying you took 200 hours to draw a picture in pencil and someone came and took a piss on it.  To some people it's a dumb drawing to others it's his life work.  
    Once again , applying RL circumstances , does not apply imo .. you gotta keep em seperated..
    So if I draw pictures on my computer they are less worth while because they are pixels?  You act as if when you play a game you are not occupying real life time because it's a pixel.  Nobody wants to waste their time regardless of reality.  

    I know people who are upset over playing spades. It's just a card game to me but some people are serious. 

    Umm yes , pixel Art on your PC has less value than RL Art , why is this a question ... Pixel Art on your PC is easily replicated/altered/copied............

      Cant do that with the Mona Lisa ................... can you?

      And yes you are occupying time , But hat was a choice to occupy your time with a gaming/Hobby
    I am not talking about monetary value and even that's not true.  Art is valued by what someone will pay for it.  Whether some pays 2 million fit a rare comic or 5 dollars for a hand carved statue in the Yucatan. 

    My point is that just because its pixels nobody wants to lose their 200 hours of art to harddrive crash anymore than painting in a fire.

    Equating choice into this means only slavery wrought work is worthwhile?
    Yes this makes more sense , i would suspect that one would be smart enough to back up there pixel art ...If someone was investing that much time 200 hours as you say into a some pixel art and were not backing up there progress as they went they are a dumbass for sure ...

        Unfortunatley once again .. you cannot back up the Mona Lisa ..

     So your analogy continues to trip over itself .. in RL and its Pixel life ..


    Exactly you back it up.  You find or want solution to not lose your pixels because you don't want to waste time.  If you can't back it up you are less likely to use that platform  even though it's just pixels.  

    Talking about monetary value is just a sidetrack.  
      Lol ... you are so misguided ... More goal posts .. None of this apply .. You cannot back up your Pixel toon in the OW pvp game .. if you get ganked there is no save feature .. why do you even go in these directions ... .. 

          So again your RL analogy does not apply ...
    Yes you can.  You can prevent losses by not having full loot or other things typically found games these games.  That is what typically happens.  This is why concentual PvP, no death penalty and no looting is so common in western markets.

    My real life anology does work as long as you take it for it is.  People don't want to waste time by losing everything in most situations games or real life.  People value their time investment.  You are bringing monetary value into which just is not what I am talking about.
    Steelhelm
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,172
    Curious to what people would think of a system just like Eve’s in a fantasy setting. By that I mean it wouldn’t  be full loot because eve technically doesn’t have it. The ship and many parts get destroyed so the fantasy setting could be that the equipped items take damage, but don’t drop. In your npc cities there would be a magical protection disallowing contact (think stations). Outside of the city there would be guards that appeared and killed the attacker instantly. Kills in governed areas would give you negative alignment so guards would kill on sight basically banishing you from high security areas. 
Sign In or Register to comment.