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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

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  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,233
    edited February 17

  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,233
    rodarin said:
    full loot mmos are fun, not gonna lie.

    that's why all these BR games are so popular. it's basically a full loot pvp game with no grinding. full loot straight to the action. full loot pvp is super fun when done right. 

    the problem becomes when you try and merge grinding/leveling with full loot ganking. when you force pvp onto people that just want to pve. 


    i agree that EvE online found the best balance to date. can't think of a single game that did it better. Aion came close with their rift system. for the life of me cannot understand why no other mmo developer hasn't gone the way of EvE. it's just so perfect. it allows all types of playstyles to interact, without forcing either pvpers or pvers onto each other. you can literally choose how much risk you want to take, and those players hell bent on doing nothing but ganking are forced to stay far away from pvers. 

    the only issue that EvE has really is the fact that you are always a ship. such a shame that they abandoned walking in space stations. that was truly the next step for that game.  


    Eve is a complete grindfest and spread sheet game. The number of players in it are also dubious. I have said it a dozen times now the population is probably a fifth of what it looks like, meaning the average number of accounts for each individual is 5. Obviously not everyone has 5 but some guys have 10 or 20.

    Its also plex driven that big surge a few years ago has literally kept the game populated. I dont know how many people are joining or rejoining but the group I played with, maybe 30 people havent been playing in quite awhile. Its that niche game where the hardcores will play it to death and pay with in game currency which if you have the experience is ridiculously easy to make. Even with Plex being outrageous now compared to what they used to be the amount of isk in the game is also equally ridiculous.

    As far as BRs go they feed the trolls. They also feed the ADD insta gratification  mentality everyone wants now. While too many games are grinding and make you feel like its a 'job' many are also making it too easy to 'achieve' things. Everyone talks about 'balance' with MMOs but the real balance issues are class based but how the game is designed and developed between grind and 'easy mode'. BRs despite their huge interest now are a passing fad. Once the next big thing comes along and the streamers and content creators all move on to that these BRs will be nothing. You see it now within the genre. Apex came out and everyone has flocked to it. PuBG used to be king fortnite came out and people went to that game now its APex. no 'brand' loyalty and definitely showing the ADD mentality of the players of these games. None of them are particularly good or even decent. But theyre the flavor of the month and someone that they watch play it tries to explain the tiny things that make one 'better' than the other. Which doesnt mean its good it just does things differently. But in the end theyre all so similar that depending on who is streaming it that will be the one that has the most going on.

    Thats why when theyre new people flock to them because everything IS new and not a grind or easy there is no point of reference until you play awhile. Some are so obviously cut and pastes from other games most people dont need any time ot see their short comings.

    But ANY MMO that wants to come out cant be full anything all the time be it PvE or PvE. With maps getting bigger and bigger there is really no reason not to have the tried and true 'zone' method. Some zones are safe others arent. Its pretty simple. Any MMO that ever had any sort of longer lasting success has employed that system. Even in seemless 'openworld' maps its not hard to do it. Archeage did it fairly well. Only thing issue htere is their zones had chokepoint and entry spots you couldnt just go into a zone anywhere freely. So it was easier to know when you were getting close to a 'bad' area.

    Have only one account and never used any spreadsheet and I have hundreds of billions of isk.
    The grind is what you make it, you can do plenty of things in eve solo without feeling it as a grind.


    bcbullysquibbly
  • OldSchoolGamerOldSchoolGamer Member UncommonPosts: 229
    edited February 17
    @ikcin LoL and Fortnite are not MMORPGs.  Please stop confusing niche Battle Royal games with MMORPGs.  Fortnite may have 130 million people playing it but at the end of the day it is a F2P BR game that pulled in $3 billion dollars last year.  World of Warcraft on the other hand pulled in over a $1 Billion with only 7 million players.  When you do the math, WoW was far more profitable per player than either Fortnite or LoL.

    I understand and concede the point that the OP said MMOs not MMORPGs.  Saying that, F2P MMOs and Concurrent Subscriber MMORPGs are two completely different games that simply can not be compared.  Everything from the player base to the platform dynamics are different.
    craftseeker
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,786
    I wonder what makes the western MMORPG market so adverse to pking. It also seems less accepting of pay to win. The eastern market doesn't seem to have the same issues.  Entitlement, fairness, control I guess are at play.  
    They see themselves as one day being in those shoes, and likely have been in other games at some point.

    It's also worth mentioning that in eastern grinders gaining more power is typically a matter of solo grind.   While western games start as early as your first few hours to get you into a cooperative group dungeon.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,540
    Cheap...easy to make and a good way to support the cash shop by creating anger between players that would pay anything to get even.
    I doubt you see any of these games that are not under the guise of f2p or early access,all low budget trashy developers.
    As to Fortnite..lol,you mark my words,everything i have said about gamer's in general will show to be true in the next few weeks.You see most gamer's are puppets,they follow the trend,now that some famous names are leaving FN for Apex just watch how Fortnite will drop very fast.

    As to the subject of these shallow mmos doing the pvp thing,who cares,it's simple,ignore those games/developers,just find something way more interesting to play.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • OldSchoolGamerOldSchoolGamer Member UncommonPosts: 229
    Wizardry said:
    Cheap...easy to make and a good way to support the cash shop by creating anger between players that would pay anything to get even.
    I doubt you see any of these games that are not under the guise of f2p or early access,all low budget trashy developers.
    As to Fortnite..lol,you mark my words,everything i have said about gamer's in general will show to be true in the next few weeks.You see most gamer's are puppets,they follow the trend,now that some famous names are leaving FN for Apex just watch how Fortnite will drop very fast.

    As to the subject of these shallow mmos doing the pvp thing,who cares,it's simple,ignore those games/developers,just find something way more interesting to play.
    You bring up a valid point.   What a lot of these BR fanboys don't understand is that a lot of these streamers they like to follow are under contract for a certain amount of time to stream a certain game for a certain publisher.  As soon as the next check comes in, that streamer is off to the next game they are getting paid to stream.  That or the case of "indie streamers" they get paid straight from their communities themselves keep the cash coming in jumping from new release to new release.

  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,465
    Wizardry said:
    Cheap...easy to make and a good way to support the cash shop by creating anger between players that would pay anything to get even.
    I doubt you see any of these games that are not under the guise of f2p or early access,all low budget trashy developers.
    As to Fortnite..lol,you mark my words,everything i have said about gamer's in general will show to be true in the next few weeks.You see most gamer's are puppets,they follow the trend,now that some famous names are leaving FN for Apex just watch how Fortnite will drop very fast.

    As to the subject of these shallow mmos doing the pvp thing,who cares,it's simple,ignore those games/developers,just find something way more interesting to play.
    You bring up a valid point.   What a lot of these BR fanboys don't understand is that a lot of these streamers they like to follow are under contract for a certain amount of time to stream a certain game for a certain publisher.  As soon as the next check comes in, that streamer is off to the next game they are getting paid to stream.  That or the case of "indie streamers" they get paid straight from their communities themselves keep the cash coming in jumping from new release to new release.

    most double dip. I dont think it is a requirement to tel your viewers youre being 'sponsored' many do it. I dont think even they do it all the time. Its a business and they make their business decisions. Many are complete sell outs thats how it goes.

    I flip through twitch on occasion and I watch random streamers and the truth is some of the most profitable ones arent even gamers. Theyre people who have a decent sized community of vary faithful and generous followers. There is one girl who is over the top positive and is all about making viewers and her community feel 'special'. Its awkward at some times. But she streams five or six times a week on occasion streaming WoW but not for the game but for the community. She has a very steady income and she also has some 'special' streams and those are when the income is incredible. Her New Years stream was 12-15K, her 'front page' stream was maybe 10K her birthday stream was probably close to 20K. She doesnt list subs but she has less than 30K followers so a guesstimate on subs would be under 1000, probably even under 500. So her sub revenue definitely pales to the big guys who have thousands and tens of thousands of subs. But she isnt beholden to anyone.

    So slightly off topic but not really. Its the age we live in where watching people do things is more common than doing things yourself. Where everyone of all ages now has their faces shoved into a phone or other device. Even when theyre out on a 'date' or supposed to be enjoying the company of another LIVE human being.

    MMOs and games USED to be that outlet. The 'make believe' world. But now people are living it every moment through their phones or other devises. Facebook, twitter, snapchat whatever all have much better pvp (even with all the censoring) than any game does and people have become so desensitized to what they say or post under their real names playing a game with a fake cartoon body just doesnt do it for them.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    I wonder what makes the western MMORPG market so adverse to pking. It also seems less accepting of pay to win. The eastern market doesn't seem to have the same issues.  Entitlement, fairness, control I guess are at play.  
    Individualism and the idea, that when you pay for something you get some additional rights. In the eastern countries, including Eastern Europe, the people do not believe so much in their individual rights. So they are more friendly, more supportive, and at the same time more aggressive and ready to lose. For example if you enter into Russian guild - well these guys like to PK for no reason. But also they literally will give the life and the gear of their characters for you. 

    Honestly, for me, to play MMORPG solo, is pointless. I play these games for competition and cooperation. So I like the eastern way of thinking.
    Gdemamibcbully
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,146
    Pvp is fun. It adds a dynamic that can’t be had with pve in any game. There are plenty of people out there who want that dynamic in a mmo and many devs are of those same people. They keep trying because someday someone will get another successful formula. There are plenty of non pvp, non full loot mmos so if that’s not your thing why put so much heart into degrading those that want to try it? Leave them alone and let them do their thing. Go play a pve game. 
    ScorchienikcinSteelhelmAlBQuirkybcbullycraftseekerPhaserlightsquibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited February 17
    rodarin said:
    Eve is a complete grindfest and spread sheet game. The number of players in it are also dubious. I have said it a dozen times now the population is probably a fifth of what it looks like, meaning the average number of accounts for each individual is 5. Obviously not everyone has 5 but some guys have 10 or 20.

    No, it is not. Lineage 2 is a grindfest. In EVE you can leave your ships to do their job. In L2 or WoW, or AA, you have to play all the time. In fact WoW is the worst, as L2 grind is based on mobs, so you could use illegal bots or legal macros. In WoW you have do to the quests by yourself. EVE is the less grindy game from all above. 
    @ikcin LoL and Fortnite are not MMORPGs.  Please stop confusing niche Battle Royal games with MMORPGs.  Fortnite may have 130 million people playing it but at the end of the day it is a F2P BR game that pulled in $3 billion dollars last year.  World of Warcraft on the other hand pulled in over a $1 Billion with only 7 million players.  When you do the math, WoW was far more profitable per player than either Fortnite or LoL.

    I understand and concede the point that the OP said MMOs not MMORPGs.  Saying that, F2P MMOs and Concurrent Subscriber MMORPGs are two completely different games that simply can not be compared.  Everything from the player base to the platform dynamics are different.
    So better game is the game that milks more money from the player? WoW is a niche game now. Runescape is much bigger for example. And the revenue shows nothing. My best gaming experience is from Lineage 2 on a private free server, that was much better than the official ones - no bots, no RMT, instant ban for any cheating, no lags, no queue. The owner payed about 500 euro per month for the server with up to 8000 active players. And all played 4 years for free before GoD.
  • rodarinrodarin Member RarePosts: 2,465
    ikcin said:
    rodarin said:
    Eve is a complete grindfest and spread sheet game. The number of players in it are also dubious. I have said it a dozen times now the population is probably a fifth of what it looks like, meaning the average number of accounts for each individual is 5. Obviously not everyone has 5 but some guys have 10 or 20.

    No, it is not. Lineage 2 is a grindfest. In EVE you can leave your ships to do their job. In L2 or WoW, or AA, you have to play all the time. In fact WoW is the worst, as L2 grind is based on mobs, so you could use illegal bots or legal macros. In WoW you have do to the quests by yourself. EVE is the less grindy game from all above. 

    all a matter of perspective. You DONT NEED gear in WOW, some CHOOSE to grind it. Just like some chose to do other things. Wow is simply the 'best' aspect of 'progressive' gaming. Meaning to get better gear you have to have keep getting the gear necessary to get it. Of course in some cases you can be carried but at a point everyone needs to have some sort of equality. Like I said though thats a choice. Some people are now into mount grinding. Others are probably still queuing for AV 10 year later.

    No matter what you do in EVE is becomes monotonous. I played the game for over 10 years I know what it is and what it isnt. At a certain point the options become limited. It is a very diminishing return type of game. The 'better' you get the less there is to do. So then it basically becomes an asset collection game. Which I guess technically every game eventually becomes. But with Eve no matter how much you have you can never feel safe that 'its enough'. Especially if you have the mentality of being a 'player' of the highest level.
    Gdemami
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 914
    Lineage-like pvp system > anything else I have played in an MMO.

    Battle Royale > full loot pvp-only MMO.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,067
    full loot mmos are fun, not gonna lie.

    that's why all these BR games are so popular. it's basically a full loot pvp game with no grinding. full loot straight to the action. full loot pvp is super fun when done right. 

    the problem becomes when you try and merge grinding/leveling with full loot ganking. when you force pvp onto people that just want to pve. 


    i agree that EvE online found the best balance to date. can't think of a single game that did it better. Aion came close with their rift system. for the life of me cannot understand why no other mmo developer hasn't gone the way of EvE. it's just so perfect. it allows all types of playstyles to interact, without forcing either pvpers or pvers onto each other. you can literally choose how much risk you want to take, and those players hell bent on doing nothing but ganking are forced to stay far away from pvers. 

    the only issue that EvE has really is the fact that you are always a ship. such a shame that they abandoned walking in space stations. that was truly the next step for that game.  


    Probably because Eve didnt have avatars.....Thats what maeks the games so complicated.....Eve didnt have to have combat animations like msot games do....While many thought this was great, to me it was awful and boring....The skill system was interesting, nothing else in the game was.
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,642
    Real world has a full loot OWPvP setting yet it has not become a PVP arena. Why? Because there are regulatory mechanisms in place. 

    If the developer's vision is to create a game which is realistic in this aspect, there is nothing wrong with it, in my opinion. However, they have to be able to implement mechanisms which will regulate the PVP in such a manner that it will not be too disruptive for the gameplay experience and not drive players away.

    The fact that devs are not very successful in this regard does not mean that it cannot be done.

    I consider myself to be a PVE player yet my favorite setting is a FFA OWPvP given that it is properly regulated. For me, it is much more immersive and credible setting than ones in which I cannot hit other player because of some artificial force.
    AlBQuirkySteelhelm
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    rodarin said:

    all a matter of perspective. You DONT NEED gear in WOW, some CHOOSE to grind it. Just like some chose to do other things. Wow is simply the 'best' aspect of 'progressive' gaming. Meaning to get better gear you have to have keep getting the gear necessary to get it. Of course in some cases you can be carried but at a point everyone needs to have some sort of equality. Like I said though thats a choice. Some people are now into mount grinding. Others are probably still queuing for AV 10 year later.

    No matter what you do in EVE is becomes monotonous. I played the game for over 10 years I know what it is and what it isnt. At a certain point the options become limited. It is a very diminishing return type of game. The 'better' you get the less there is to do. So then it basically becomes an asset collection game. Which I guess technically every game eventually becomes. But with Eve no matter how much you have you can never feel safe that 'its enough'. Especially if you have the mentality of being a 'player' of the highest level.
    I see nothing wrong. You play EVE to compete, it is not quest based or mob based grindfest. It is not about the character progression. You play there to compete with the other players. If you do not, well you can play, but you does not matter. It is a good design for a MMORPG. I think it is better design than the common leveling up to the so called end game where the competition (some sort of) awaits. Obviously the attempt for any MMORPG is to be an endless game, so EVE made a good job at that point.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,883
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    ikcinMaurgrimsquibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    edited February 17
    Real world has a full loot OWPvP setting yet it has not become a PVP arena. Why? Because there are regulatory mechanisms in place. 
    Let say I'm a bad guy, and I want to robe you, kill you and rape you - a very bad guy. So what will stop me? The answer is - nothing. Well then, there could be some penalties and consequences for me, but I doubt you will get any benefits from that.

    But in the most games you are literally immortal. So you will benefit from the penalties and the consequences. And this is a problem, as you can use the regulations to avoid the competition, and even to make it pointless. 

    Imagine an RPG where you can play entire game and to get all the rewards without fighting any mob or boss. Sounds ridiculous.

    But you claim that in a MMO you should be able to avoid all the players?

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    coretex666AlBQuirkyAmarantharSteelhelmsquibbly
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,642
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    We are talking about regulation of behavior. In this case violence. 

    You can regulate behavior in a PC game just like you can regulate it in the real world. Relative severity of punishments is one of the tools how to achieve that. Punishments are possible to be implemented in a PC game just like they were implemented in the real world. They just need to be different and fit for purpose.

    No wonder it cracks you up if the first thing that pops up in your head when this topic is addressed is pulling hobbits from someone's rectum.


    AlBQuirkyAmarantharSteelhelmsquibbly
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,883
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    GdemamiSteelhelmPhaserlightsquibblyKyleran
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,642
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    Are you drunk?
    SteelhelmsquibblyKyleran
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,883
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
    Are you drunk?
    Havent had a drink in 27 years
    Phaserlightsquibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    We are talking about regulation of behavior. In this case violence. 

    You can regulate behavior in a PC game just like you can regulate it in the real world. Relative severity of punishments is one of the tools how to achieve that. Punishments are possible to be implemented in a PC game just like they were implemented in the real world. They just need to be different and fit for purpose.

    No wonder it cracks you up if the first thing that pops up in your head when this topic is addressed is pulling hobbits from someone's rectum.


    But we are talking about games with weapons, where the gameplay simulates killing of things. The issue here is not the aggression, but the penalties. In such environment you do not need safe zones or PK rules, but adequate death penalties. And adequate multiplayer goals. Obviously if the entire game is focused on the solo character progression - it is doubtful that can be called MMO, and any OW PvP, PK, loot, death penalty will be hardly acceptable.  

    In L2 you play for the clan, in EVE for the corporation, the rest of the players, well, many of them,  do not like the open world competition - PvP. In fact I agree with you. If the PK and death penalties are adequate to the human psychology, so they push the player to limit the risk, there is nothing wrong. These penalties are good for the gameplay, as they make it more immersive. But if the penalties prevent the competition - like they do in BDO or L2 Classic - US, there is a problem. 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,883
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    They apply to human psychology.  If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.  

    The same concept applies to video games.  Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.   
    really .. does not apply ..

     If you fight in  Basketball one could actually break your fucking nose , or worse , actually kill you


     A bit different from bruising ones Pixel Vagina
    CryomatrixSteelhelmsquibbly
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,642
    ikcin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL  penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...

       Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
    We are talking about regulation of behavior. In this case violence. 

    You can regulate behavior in a PC game just like you can regulate it in the real world. Relative severity of punishments is one of the tools how to achieve that. Punishments are possible to be implemented in a PC game just like they were implemented in the real world. They just need to be different and fit for purpose.

    No wonder it cracks you up if the first thing that pops up in your head when this topic is addressed is pulling hobbits from someone's rectum.


    But we are talking about games with weapons, where the gameplay simulates killing of things. The issue here is not the aggression, but the penalties. In such environment you do not need safe zones or PK rules, but adequate death penalties. And adequate multiplayer goals. Obviously if the entire game is focused on the solo character progression - it is doubtful that can be called MMO, and any OW PvP, PK, loot, death penalty will be hardly acceptable.  

    In L2 you play for the clan, in EVE for the corporation, the rest of the players, well, many of them,  do not like the open world competition - PvP. In fact I agree with you. If the PK and death penalties are adequate to the human psychology, so they push the player to limit the risk, there is nothing wrong. These penalties are good for the gameplay, as they make it more immersive. But if the penalties prevent the competition - like they do in BDO or L2 Classic - US, there is a problem. 
    I have not talked about the qualitative aspects of the regulatory mechanisms, but rather about the fact that they have the potential to be an effective way to regulate the amount of selected behavior, in this case violent actions against other players.

    I do agree that they should be designed in a way that they do not negatively affect the gameplay, but It is up to the developer to design them properly.
    Steelhelm
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