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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

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  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,080
    Kyleran said:
    goboygo said:
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    Okay great a "sub genre" doesn't challenge any of his main points because he is not referring to your sub genre reference.  He's referring to the classic MMO.  And you don't have to figure it out because he has already told you why it doesn't work, and hes spot on.  His question is why do developers think their version of a full loot classic MMO is somehow going to work. 
    He used the term MMO, not MMORPG, there is a difference.

    Many consider survival games MMOs, so they qualify.

    If he meant MMORPGs, there are two totally PVE centric games in progress,  a few with a mixture of both and a few which are PVP only. 
    He used MMO I think because MMO used to mean only one thing, a true classic MMOrpg experience.  And his examples to me seemed to point to those types of classic MMO's not the many multiplayer genres that now call themselves MMO's, survival games, BR's, etc.

    To try and answer his question now, I think its because these developers are that sliver group that wants these types of games so badly they try and build one themselves that they hope can actually make it.  The ones they have tried shrivel up and die or flounder along on life support. 

    I just don't believe its possible to make a classic MMO that satisfies the hardcore full loot kill anyone anywhere at anytime for any reason PVPer and the PVE'r that wants to participate in this world to be farmed and killed endlessly which is always what happens.  Its a diluted fantasy.
     

    MaurgrimAlBQuirkyCazrielSabracCaylera
  • LuidenLuiden Member UncommonPosts: 262
    I agree with the OP, I have no idea why they keep making Full loot PvP games, I have no idea why they keep making games with harsh death penalties.. nobody likes that shit.  They say that they like it, but then the games die.  

    I think the bigger stunning question is, why isn't anybody making a quality PvP game like DAOC where you don't lose your stuff, that act of dying is enough for you not wanting to die.  Realm pride etc.  RvR, where in the hell are you.. that's what I don't understand.
    Maurgrim
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,941
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    Full loot is awesome. It makes things worth protecting and literally increases value. An item worth trading for 10 million credits eight years ago is now trading for 40 million credits.

    Now, what does this tell us about mercantilism?
    squibbly

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • MargraveMargrave Member RarePosts: 1,168
    Everyone thinks they'll be the one to finally get it right.
    PalebaneMaurgrimAlBQuirkySabracsquibbly
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member RarePosts: 554
    While I enjoy full loot conceptually, in practice it's a terrible idea.

    I play PvP games for the challenge, unpredictability and excitement of fighting other players. All that full loot does in a PvP game is turn everyone into a coward who runs from every fight they're not certain they're going to win. Chasing people down as they try to escape is not challenging, their decision to flee when attacked is not unpredictable, and the act of killing them in not exciting.

    Shadowbane struck a decent balance with inventory only looting, but that created its own problems. The person who was out grinding gold, or hunting runes was taking all the risk. The PK who tries to kill them risked nothing. SB arguably would have been a better game without it.
    PalebaneAlBQuirkyMardukk4507
  • bigmilkbigmilk Member UncommonPosts: 45
    edited February 16
    Can anyone name a Single-Server, Persistent World, full loot, PvP, Permadeath MMO with extensive crafting, character development, and base building with an interesting theme?

    I can name 2, but I have limited experience.

    Haven and Hearth, and Salem (the "Crafting MMO", not "the town of"). Both created by Seatribe.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,070
    Maybe the PVPers will pay for competitive advantages that the PVE players will not?
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,726
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    With most survival games you can host personal servers and foster the community YOU want for that server. On MMOs you deal with immature douchebags whether you like it or not.

    It goes a long way towards giving one the potential to be entertaining, while the other is often doomed to be an exercise in frustration.
    craftseekerAlBQuirky

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid Member EpicPosts: 10,060
    Because most people want them...





    ...oh wait...
    craftseekerMaurgrimAlBQuirkyCazrielRnjypsygrndzrosquibbly




  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    There is not a conflict between the MMOs and the full loot. The conflict is between the solo players and the MMOs. So if you want to play solo, with no care and frustration about the others players, obviously the full loot, any loot or any player's impact will be a problem. 

    But then, why do you play MMOs? The only difference between the MMO and the solo game are the players. The illusions of competition, attention and cooperation give to the MMOs the longevity and the meaning above the script of the solo game. 

    And if you remove the player's impact - the competition, the attention and the cooperation become delusional. You may imagine you play with other players, but they actually will not care. So you will collect gear, levels, achievements  for nothing. Most players will not pay attention, as the impact, the consequences are missing. 

    You may lose, who cares, when you lose nothing. You may win, but again, who cares when your opponent lose nothing. That PvP is simply pointless.  And the PvE, where you build your character for the PvP becomes pointless. In such a game only the script - the personal quest story will be meaningful. Like it is in any singleplayer game. That is why, to have MMO, you need impact. And bigger risk means bigger win. So the full loot is something good in general, except if you are a solo player.
    craftseeker
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,941
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    With most survival games you can host personal servers and foster the community YOU want for that server. On MMOs you deal with immature douchebags whether you like it or not.

    It goes a long way towards giving one the potential to be entertaining, while the other is often doomed to be an exercise in frustration.
    Not necessarily; immature douchebags tend to get banned.
    ScorchiencraftseekerAzaron_Nightblade

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Member RarePosts: 3,823
    Because PvP is way cheaper to develop than PvE. No AI. There's the answer.

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, BDO, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
    ESO, Fallen Earth, FFXI, FFXIV, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MxO, Neverwinter, Rift, RoE,
    Ryzom, Shadowbane, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...and a bunch of others not worth mentioning.


    Joined - July 2004

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,347
    ikcin said:
    There is not a conflict between the MMOs and the full loot. The conflict is between the solo players and the MMOs. So if you want to play solo, with no care and frustration about the others players, obviously the full loot, any loot or any player's impact will be a problem. 

    But then, why do you play MMOs? The only difference between the MMO and the solo game are the players. The illusions of competition, attention and cooperation give to the MMOs the longevity and the meaning above the script of the solo game. 

    And if you remove the player's impact - the competition, the attention and the cooperation become delusional. You may imagine you play with other players, but they actually will not care. So you will collect gear, levels, achievements  for nothing. Most players will not pay attention, as the impact, the consequences are missing. 

    You may lose, who cares, when you lose nothing. You may win, but again, who cares when your opponent lose nothing. That PvP is simply pointless.  And the PvE, where you build your character for the PvP becomes pointless. In such a game only the script - the personal quest story will be meaningful. Like it is in any singleplayer game. That is why, to have MMO, you need impact. And bigger risk means bigger win. So the full loot is something good in general, except if you are a solo player.
    But then again, if you PvP for the loot your enemy is carrying, what's the point to carry anything if everyone will attack the player in shiny magical armor and hope they can get away with it.

    There has to be some other reason to inititate PvP than the loot, something so much more important it's worth to gear up as well as possible and take the risk to lose everything, and to be frank i'm not sure if there has ever been a game that has such a meaningful PvP.
    AlBQuirky
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,510
    edited February 16
    It's not "Full Loot", it's "Fully Looted Time After Time."

    It really is a case of self blindness to the lunatic extreme.
    None of these games have the two things that you'd absolutely need to make an Open World, Full Loot Game.
    A ) - A Justice System that really works to keep senseless PKing down
    B ) - Lots and lots of money to make a great world of PvE, Many forms of MOBs and Critters, Magic or Sci Fi, Crafting, Economy, Housing, Exploration and Discovery, Deep Lore and Mystery, and anything else that makes for a truly great world simulation including Player Supported Laws.
    SteelhelmAlBQuirkyTheocritusCaylerasquibbly

    Once upon a time....

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,884
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    With most survival games you can host personal servers and foster the community YOU want for that server. On MMOs you deal with immature douchebags whether you like it or not.

    It goes a long way towards giving one the potential to be entertaining, while the other is often doomed to be an exercise in frustration.
    Not necessarily; immature douchebags tend to get banned.
    And on private servers , you end up seeing people ..erhmmm Bend the Rules to help themselves and or guild .. Or there doing it and you dont see it .. happens alot
    Phaserlightsquibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    deniter said:

    But then again, if you PvP for the loot your enemy is carrying, what's the point to carry anything if everyone will attack the player in shiny magical armor and hope they can get away with it.

    There has to be some other reason to inititate PvP than the loot, something so much more important it's worth to gear up as well as possible and take the risk to lose everything, and to be frank i'm not sure if there has ever been a game that has such a meaningful PvP.
    You are trying to rationalize the things at a very narrow level. Obviously you do not fight for the loot. Except if that loot is very good, better than your gear - and this is not the common case. You compete to win, but the win is meaningful only if has consequences. 

    The problem with the "full loot" games is not the loot. But the risk reward ratio. As cheyane mentions above, loot does not work when you lose too much. Then the full loot will be like perma death of your character. Both work fine in EVE as the purpose of the gameplay there is constantly to build new ships/characters and you do not personalize and associate with them.

    Also, when your character is constantly looted - this is a problem. If you are simply a bad player, it is your personal problem. But if this is caused by level/gear gaps, the issue is with the game. So you need some mechanisms to limit the impact or the gaps. 

    At the other side, when you literally remove the consequences, the MMO becomes pointless, which is the case with most of the MMOs now.


  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Because PvP is way cheaper to develop than PvE. No AI. There's the answer.
    This is literally stupid. To create AI is much easier than to create PvP simulation. Every student with basic idea of programming could create some AI. But to measure the impact of random events - the PvP, is something really complicated. That is why a game that works fine when you gather 100 mobs, crashes when 100 players come in one area.
    PhaserlightGdemamiMaurgrimMardukk
  • LobotomistLobotomist Member RarePosts: 5,820
    Luiden said:
    I agree with the OP, I have no idea why they keep making Full loot PvP games, I have no idea why they keep making games with harsh death penalties.. nobody likes that shit.  They say that they like it, but then the games die.  

    I think the bigger stunning question is, why isn't anybody making a quality PvP game like DAOC where you don't lose your stuff, that act of dying is enough for you not wanting to die.  Realm pride etc.  RvR, where in the hell are you.. that's what I don't understand.
    So much true.




  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,786
    Because PvP is way cheaper to develop than PvE. No AI. There's the answer.
    It initially looks cheaper.

    Though PvP and the balance you're required to make/maintain for it is pretty expensive in design time and continuous design time. 

    The costs of getting it wrong will hurt your game more than getting end game raids wrong.   improperly balanced PvP, especially open PvP, will damage your game's reputation beyond repair.
    GdemamiPhaserlight

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    anemo said:
    Because PvP is way cheaper to develop than PvE. No AI. There's the answer.
    It initially looks cheaper.

    Though PvP and the balance you're required to make/maintain for it is pretty expensive in design time and continuous design time. 

    The costs of getting it wrong will hurt your game more than getting end game raids wrong.   improperly balanced PvP, especially open PvP, will damage your game's reputation beyond repair.
    In the PvE you have AI vs player. And the AI in most games is not real AI. It does not react. And there is a good reason for that. If your character hits a mob, the mob could react to the hit, so every action to have reaction. But in the MMO case you hit with one skill, other player with another skill, and there is some guy who even does not know what he is doing. So a simple AI could not react to the random events the players generate. That is why most mobs do not have real AI. They have scheduled actions. And often you even could skip that schedule if you lower the HP of the NPC fast enough. 

    In the PvP there are only random events. So the number of the calculations is much bigger. And we even do not talk about the balance you mention. The PvP is harder and more challenging for the players and for the developers both.
    Gdemami
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 917
    Margrave said:
    Everyone thinks they'll be the one to finally get it right.
    it was already done right: it's called battle royale.
    anemoCazrielsquibbly
  • NeanderthalNeanderthal Member RarePosts: 1,797
    As to the question of why developers keep making those types of games, I don't really know.  I actually think part of it goes back to the beginnings of MMORPGs and the idea of making a virtual world.  If you are trying to make a virtual world it does make sense that players should be able to take any action they choose to take.

    The reasons why it doesn't work out very well have all been pointed out already by other people but I guess I'll rehash it.  It all ties in to the fact that it's not a real world it's a virtual world game.  So even if they trying to make it feel like a world it is still a game and things work differently in a game than they do in the real world.

    So why doesn't it work?

    1.  Power gaps between players.  One guy is much higher level than the other guy or has far better equipment so when they encounter each other there isn't any chance for a fight there is just one guy trying to murder the much weaker guy and the weaker guy can only try to escape.  For some people being the stronger guy in that situation is fun but nobody finds it fun being the weaker guy.  This is the result of it being a game and it's not realistic.  In the real world if you gave two random healthy adults each a sword and forced them to fight there would at least be some chance that the less experienced guy would win.

    2.  Lack of consequences.  In the real world could you hang around a public park ambushing people and killing them at will with no consequences?  No.  But in a game you can.  I don't know of any PvP game that has ever come up with any good solution for this.  I have thought that maybe some type of faction system that really matters would help.  Kill another player and for every faction he has positive standing with you will take a negative hit equal to his positive standing with that faction. 

    But then it would need to be a fairly involved and deep faction system.  It couldn't just be a simple light versus dark, pick one or the other system.  You would need lots of factions so that a player might have positive standing with a multitude of factions that actually matter in a game.  This way, anyone contemplating murder would have to wonder how they are going to screw up their own faction standings if they do it.  For this to work the factions would have to really mean something in the game and not just be something you could shrug off.

    3.  Unacceptable loss.  It's been mentioned before but if you lose many hours worth of progress because some gank squad or higher level guy killed you...it sucks hard.  If it happens repeatedly, well, most people in that situation will just stop playing that game.

    4.  Harassment.  Even if the loss upon death is not so bad it's no fun being killed every time you step out away from the guards or whatever.  And we all know there are people who will hang around just to do that sort of thing.  Hang around an area where they know they can find weaker characters just so they can make the game a miserable experience for them.

    Basically, trying make a MMORPG that strives to be like a virtual world but also has unrestriced PvP just doesn't work and it never will.  The two things just don't fit together.
    AlBQuirkyAmarantharcheyaneSabracsquibbly
  • alyndalealyndale Member UncommonPosts: 929
    edited February 16
    "Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?"

    Why is there always some type of sodium or sugar found in processed food we buy off the counter?
    Steelhelm

    All I want is the truth
    Just gimme some truth
    John Lennon

  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,080
    It's not "Full Loot", it's "Fully Looted Time After Time."

    It really is a case of self blindness to the lunatic extreme.
    None of these games have the two things that you'd absolutely need to make an Open World, Full Loot Game.
    A ) - A Justice System that really works to keep senseless PKing down
    B ) - Lots and lots of money to make a great world of PvE, Many forms of MOBs and Critters, Magic or Sci Fi, Crafting, Economy, Housing, Exploration and Discovery, Deep Lore and Mystery, and anything else that makes for a truly great world simulation including Player Supported Laws.
    Yes basically correct, well said.
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,080
    Kabulozo said:
    Margrave said:
    Everyone thinks they'll be the one to finally get it right.
    it was already done right: it's called battle royale.
    BR games are not the classic MMO genre that the OP is referring to.  Its a completely and totally different game and market and audience.
    Phaserlightsquibbly
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