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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Hatefull said:
    Ungood said:
    kitarad said:
    You know I don't play PvP games but I do think that simply categorizing and whittling down the reasons people enjoy a mechanic in simple black and white categories is very misguided. People enjoy various things and that is why we have so many different types of games and thank god for choice.

    It is also very wrong in my book to try and project your likes and dislikes or reasons for enjoying or disliking something on to another person or groups of individuals.
    Ok. Fair enough.

    So, here is what I'll offer up to you. Go ask all the other players that like Full-Loot games, what their motive is behind liking the full loot mechanic.

    Then, think about that motive for a bit, and see if it what they say to you amounts anything significantly deeper or more involved than "I like the idea of killing other people for their stuff" 

    Come back to me with this list of other motives, and, I will gladly and openly admit I am wrong, if, and only if, what you can provide to me is exclusive to Full-Loot games and really is nothing more than vastly sugar coated variants of "I like the idea of killing people for their stuff" 

    To be honest, I am a cynic, so I don't think you will be able to pull it off, but, also, I honestly would love to be wrong about this.

    I like permadeath and full loot Pvp. Not so much to take other peoples stuff, although I do as that is a mechanic of the games, I also like the challenge of seeing how far I can make it on my skill and wits. Simply put I like the challenge and the risk.

    You make arguments based on your own experiences and try to sell them as fact. This is folly, not everyone that plays full loot and or permadeath is a troll or bully. You call people candy asses for not liking the games you enjoy, which only serves to make you sound ignorant in the extreme. How boring would gaming be if everyone only liked the same thing? Pong would have been the height of gaming ingenuity how boring is that?

    These games come with the normal array of whiners, trolls, bullies, and asshats, I will not deny that, but there are those that play simply for the challenge. In short, you're wrong.

    I would like to clear up something, I never said people who play Perma-Death are bullies or trolls. 
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Phaserlight said:

    This entire post is based on a faulty premise because in the full loot PvP game I play there are many lootable items which are rare, very hard to come by, or which represent hundreds of hours of effort.  This is what I mean by "the irreplaceability and relative indestructibility of items" back on page 14.  I'm not interested in "what other posters have said" as much as my own play experiences.  One is theory, the other is evidence.

    "Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value" is patently ridiculous.  Risk doesn't decrease value; if anything it increases the value of certain items.
    Just to be clear, are talking about the mobile game in your Sig ?
    It's a PC game which runs on mobile; the very first MMORPG ported from one to the other, and it runs cross platform.
    I'll take that as a yes.

    Alright, again.

    My Theseus that Risk does in fact decrease the value of items in a Full Loot Game.

    I base this on the game mechanic itself, where Full Loot makes it so someone can take all the equipment from another player, so with that in mind, what motive does anyone have to invest large sums of time (Translated anyway you want, In Game Coin, Time Spent Farming, Buying Items from the Auction House, Etc) into purchasing or posses these high ticket items if they can be very easily taken from them?

    Again, look at what all the other posters that have talked about equipment when playing Full Loot Games, all gear should be low cost easy to replace stuff. 

    With a core point of: Never have something you can't afford to lose. 

    In a game like that, the only worth of a high ticket item is to give the illusion of value tiers, but in reality those that get these rare drops often will just auction house (or Bank and Sell via another means) them because otherwise someone will be able to kill them for it and they make nothing from this, with the flip side of that set up, is no one has any motive to actually buy theses high ticket items, because someone can just kill them for it and take all their investment away.

    In fact, many posters on this topic alone have expressed openly the thrill they get when they loot high ticket item off another player, that is what they want from the game, players foolishly investing into these high ticket items, but, at the same time, none of them would even think of using or equipping these items, for the very reason that someone would enjoy taking it from them.

    Thus these items are more a burden to the game than a boon, and typically all that happens are these rare drop items end up in banks, or auction houses, where they can't be stolen.

    So, now it is your tern to tell me how these High Ticket Items have any real value in that kind of environment.

    Or maybe explain to me why anyone would spend 100's of hours on an item in a game where it can be stolen from them in a matter of seconds.

    And to be open here, this is a huge part of my theory on why these games die, so if you can put a dent into this, this would open the door to a total reconsideration of my stand on these games.
    Gdemami
  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,596
    For EVE, its the odd one out of the bunch. Its the only sandbox full loot PvP MMO I like. None of the others have bothered to research why its successful

    Funny thing is, at one point CCP stated the vast majority of players didn't even leave high sec, didn't go to low sec (but many did) and very few actually went to nullsec, but most stayed in highsec mining and doing missions and pve stuff

    EVE is successful because it offers a TON of pve content. Many players only PVE. I stayed in the rookie starter corp for 3 years, and there was a huge majority that never joined other guilds and just did pve group stuff with others or solo stuff

    Most pvp MMOs offer very little pve content and 100% focus on pvp

    That and in EVE, high sec is very safe (BUT not 100% safe, can still be killed in high sec)

    Truth is, a heavy sandbox PvP MMO doesn't see much success because they offer no safe areas (HUGE areas of safety, even if there is still risk) and very little PVE content. One can say its cause they are made by indie companies, but it fails because EVE is also made by an indie company. But EVE did start off pretty barren.

    Every time I see a pvp server in an MMO, age of conan pvp servers, WoW pvp servers...the hardcore pvpers drive out the pvers and casual pvpers, and most people either leave pvp off (WoW) or stay on pve servers. I remember the pvpers killed the AoC pvp server, then they moved to the pve server cause their server was dead and tried ruining that too. 

    There is of course ultima online too. Its a sandbox pve game with optional pvp. But one has to ask, why did they make the game pvp optional? And that is easy, because they did state at one time they were bleeding players, and many people didn't want forced pvp (that quit, they did a survey at one point) and pve with pvp optional probably saved the MMO. UO is still one of the longest running MMOs today (is there an older MMO still running on official servers?), though classic UO servers do see some success for those who like that hardcore aspect.

    But it isn't like they said "lets kill our MMO and make it pve focused with pvp optional. I hate developing UO lets just kill it LOLOL". No, they had to change it because pvp was bleeding out the players. With that said, I actually did enjoy UO pvp, but I remember reading so many people quitting and complaining because of the ganking and what not. And back then when it was changed, EA was really different than EA today (wait did EA even own UO back then? Don't remember) so it wasnt cause of that either. But UO still is super popular on many of the official shards, more popular than many newer MMOs.


    There's a lot there and I agree with about 98% of it.

    I'd add that Eve is a numbers game and that has alot of appeal in itself for many people.

    Also that Eve is really 1 of 2 total space MMO's.  There are other sci-fi MMO's, but STO and EVE are our two options.  And they are miles apart in gameplay and the players they appeal to.

    But more to the point, the PVP system in Eve isn't just for better gameplay; it FEELS more realistic; more like an actual world.  You CAN be attacked in hi-sec, and you can cruise through nullsec without as much as being targeted.  It's big and open enough for that to be true.  There's a degree of likelihood to whether that happens, but you're never truly safe in hisec, and you're never 100% likely to encounter a situation you can't get out of in nullsec.

    In most other PvP games, you could be out in the woods, or you could be out in the middle of town.  If somebody decides to attack you, the consequences are the same...none... so the likelihood is the same.  Some games do have outlaw systems and whatnot, but I've never played one that really works out the gameplay like Eve does.
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,235
    Ungood said:
    Hatefull said:
    Ungood said:
    kitarad said:
    You know I don't play PvP games but I do think that simply categorizing and whittling down the reasons people enjoy a mechanic in simple black and white categories is very misguided. People enjoy various things and that is why we have so many different types of games and thank god for choice.

    It is also very wrong in my book to try and project your likes and dislikes or reasons for enjoying or disliking something on to another person or groups of individuals.
    Ok. Fair enough.

    So, here is what I'll offer up to you. Go ask all the other players that like Full-Loot games, what their motive is behind liking the full loot mechanic.

    Then, think about that motive for a bit, and see if it what they say to you amounts anything significantly deeper or more involved than "I like the idea of killing other people for their stuff" 

    Come back to me with this list of other motives, and, I will gladly and openly admit I am wrong, if, and only if, what you can provide to me is exclusive to Full-Loot games and really is nothing more than vastly sugar coated variants of "I like the idea of killing people for their stuff" 

    To be honest, I am a cynic, so I don't think you will be able to pull it off, but, also, I honestly would love to be wrong about this.

    I like permadeath and full loot Pvp. Not so much to take other peoples stuff, although I do as that is a mechanic of the games, I also like the challenge of seeing how far I can make it on my skill and wits. Simply put I like the challenge and the risk.

    You make arguments based on your own experiences and try to sell them as fact. This is folly, not everyone that plays full loot and or permadeath is a troll or bully. You call people candy asses for not liking the games you enjoy, which only serves to make you sound ignorant in the extreme. How boring would gaming be if everyone only liked the same thing? Pong would have been the height of gaming ingenuity how boring is that?

    These games come with the normal array of whiners, trolls, bullies, and asshats, I will not deny that, but there are those that play simply for the challenge. In short, you're wrong.

    I would like to clear up something, I never said people who play Perma-Death are bullies or trolls. 
    Oh but people that don't are somehow "chickenshit"? and you didn't, I did and I base that on my actual experience playing those games. An experience I doubt very much we share.
    craftseeker

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Hatefull said:
    Ungood said:
    Hatefull said:
    Ungood said:
    kitarad said:
    You know I don't play PvP games but I do think that simply categorizing and whittling down the reasons people enjoy a mechanic in simple black and white categories is very misguided. People enjoy various things and that is why we have so many different types of games and thank god for choice.

    It is also very wrong in my book to try and project your likes and dislikes or reasons for enjoying or disliking something on to another person or groups of individuals.
    Ok. Fair enough.

    So, here is what I'll offer up to you. Go ask all the other players that like Full-Loot games, what their motive is behind liking the full loot mechanic.

    Then, think about that motive for a bit, and see if it what they say to you amounts anything significantly deeper or more involved than "I like the idea of killing other people for their stuff" 

    Come back to me with this list of other motives, and, I will gladly and openly admit I am wrong, if, and only if, what you can provide to me is exclusive to Full-Loot games and really is nothing more than vastly sugar coated variants of "I like the idea of killing people for their stuff" 

    To be honest, I am a cynic, so I don't think you will be able to pull it off, but, also, I honestly would love to be wrong about this.

    I like permadeath and full loot Pvp. Not so much to take other peoples stuff, although I do as that is a mechanic of the games, I also like the challenge of seeing how far I can make it on my skill and wits. Simply put I like the challenge and the risk.

    You make arguments based on your own experiences and try to sell them as fact. This is folly, not everyone that plays full loot and or permadeath is a troll or bully. You call people candy asses for not liking the games you enjoy, which only serves to make you sound ignorant in the extreme. How boring would gaming be if everyone only liked the same thing? Pong would have been the height of gaming ingenuity how boring is that?

    These games come with the normal array of whiners, trolls, bullies, and asshats, I will not deny that, but there are those that play simply for the challenge. In short, you're wrong.

    I would like to clear up something, I never said people who play Perma-Death are bullies or trolls. 
    Oh but people that don't are somehow "chickenshit"? and you didn't, I did and I base that on my actual experience playing those games. An experience I doubt very much we share.
    Oh, well you are entitled to your feelings on the matter.

    Maybe we have played the same Perma Death games tho, what have you played?
  • NorseGodNorseGod Member EpicPosts: 2,455
    I don't want to lose my Sword of Destiny I farmed a year for, to some kid who ganked me while I was afk and out for a smoke. A kid that will only play the game for 20ish days and never return again.
    SteelhelmUngoodanemoCryomatrixAlBQuirkycraftseeker
    To talk about games without the censorship, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,817
    edited March 3
    Ungood said:

    And to be open here, this is a huge part of my theory on why these games die, so if you can put a dent into this, this would open the door to a total reconsideration of my stand on these games.
    ...a dent?

    You are making assumptions about games you don't play.

    What more 'dent' do you need?

    How about you actually start with facts and from there you try to make conclusions rather than doing it the other way round and use some wild, falacious assumptions as a basis for your prefabricated 'facts'?


    Back to topic.
    An idea of 'full loot' PVP is simple: dropped loot represents meaningful death penalty for the loser while at the same time meaningful reward for the winner.

    It is very effective design, albeit inefficient due shortcoming such solution has on other parts of the gameplay, making it rather unpopular for mass audience.
    PhaserlightScorchiencraftseekerUngood
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,200
    This should be fun.
    Steelhelmcraftseeker

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  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,979
    Robsolf said:
    For EVE, its the odd one out of the bunch. Its the only sandbox full loot PvP MMO I like. None of the others have bothered to research why its successful

    Funny thing is, at one point CCP stated the vast majority of players didn't even leave high sec, didn't go to low sec (but many did) and very few actually went to nullsec, but most stayed in highsec mining and doing missions and pve stuff

    EVE is successful because it offers a TON of pve content. Many players only PVE. I stayed in the rookie starter corp for 3 years, and there was a huge majority that never joined other guilds and just did pve group stuff with others or solo stuff

    Most pvp MMOs offer very little pve content and 100% focus on pvp

    That and in EVE, high sec is very safe (BUT not 100% safe, can still be killed in high sec)

    Truth is, a heavy sandbox PvP MMO doesn't see much success because they offer no safe areas (HUGE areas of safety, even if there is still risk) and very little PVE content. One can say its cause they are made by indie companies, but it fails because EVE is also made by an indie company. But EVE did start off pretty barren.

    Every time I see a pvp server in an MMO, age of conan pvp servers, WoW pvp servers...the hardcore pvpers drive out the pvers and casual pvpers, and most people either leave pvp off (WoW) or stay on pve servers. I remember the pvpers killed the AoC pvp server, then they moved to the pve server cause their server was dead and tried ruining that too. 

    There is of course ultima online too. Its a sandbox pve game with optional pvp. But one has to ask, why did they make the game pvp optional? And that is easy, because they did state at one time they were bleeding players, and many people didn't want forced pvp (that quit, they did a survey at one point) and pve with pvp optional probably saved the MMO. UO is still one of the longest running MMOs today (is there an older MMO still running on official servers?), though classic UO servers do see some success for those who like that hardcore aspect.

    But it isn't like they said "lets kill our MMO and make it pve focused with pvp optional. I hate developing UO lets just kill it LOLOL". No, they had to change it because pvp was bleeding out the players. With that said, I actually did enjoy UO pvp, but I remember reading so many people quitting and complaining because of the ganking and what not. And back then when it was changed, EA was really different than EA today (wait did EA even own UO back then? Don't remember) so it wasnt cause of that either. But UO still is super popular on many of the official shards, more popular than many newer MMOs.


    There's a lot there and I agree with about 98% of it.

    I'd add that Eve is a numbers game and that has alot of appeal in itself for many people.

    Also that Eve is really 1 of 2 total space MMO's.  There are other sci-fi MMO's, but STO and EVE are our two options.  And they are miles apart in gameplay and the players they appeal to.

    But more to the point, the PVP system in Eve isn't just for better gameplay; it FEELS more realistic; more like an actual world.  You CAN be attacked in hi-sec, and you can cruise through nullsec without as much as being targeted.  It's big and open enough for that to be true.  There's a degree of likelihood to whether that happens, but you're never truly safe in hisec, and you're never 100% likely to encounter a situation you can't get out of in nullsec.

    In most other PvP games, you could be out in the woods, or you could be out in the middle of town.  If somebody decides to attack you, the consequences are the same...none... so the likelihood is the same.  Some games do have outlaw systems and whatnot, but I've never played one that really works out the gameplay like Eve does.
    Dude, if you Google "Space Combat MMORPG" the one in my sig comes up on the first page.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:

    And to be open here, this is a huge part of my theory on why these games die, so if you can put a dent into this, this would open the door to a total reconsideration of my stand on these games.
    ...a dent?

    You are making assumptions about games you don't play.

    What more 'dent' do you need?

    How about you actually start with facts and from there you try to make conclusions rather than doing it the other way round and use some wild, falacious assumptions as a basis for your prefabricated 'facts'?


    Back to topic.
    An idea of 'full loot' PVP is simple: dropped loot represents meaningful death penalty for the loser while at the same time meaningful reward for the winner.

    It is very effective design, albeit inefficient due shortcoming such solution has on other parts of the gameplay, making it rather unpopular for mass audience.
    As much as I love these wrong claims that I do not play these games, I have and do play full loot games. My stand is not only based on an overall look but from playing the games themselves.

    Now, lets try a change of events and as opposed to the hollow ad hominem attacks, you put for an attempt at a counter point, to explain how I am wrong.

    Lets try a simple way. Lets take whatever Full Loot game you are playing, (in fact if you tell me what it is, that would be helpful) and in this game, explain to me why I should invest any serious time or real money into gathering gear and equipment that could be stolen from me in a matter of seconds.

    It would be a novel change if anyone could step up and answer this question without the petty quibbling and insults.
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,817
    edited March 3
    Ungood said:
    As much as I love these wrong claims that I do not play these games, I have and do play full loot games. My stand is not only based on an overall look but from playing the games themselves.

    ...

    Lets try a simple way. Lets take whatever Full Loot game you are playing, (in fact if you tell me what it is, that would be helpful) and in this game, explain to me why I should invest any serious time or real money into gathering gear and equipment that could be stolen from me in a matter of seconds.

    ...you supposedly play such games thus feel free to do the explaining - why are you investing time and/or money when your stuff can be stolen in seconds?
    Ungood
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,911
    Image result for stop feeding the troll images
    Phaserlightsquibbly
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited March 3
    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:
    As much as I love these wrong claims that I do not play these games, I have and do play full loot games. My stand is not only based on an overall look but from playing the games themselves.

    ...

    Lets try a simple way. Lets take whatever Full Loot game you are playing, (in fact if you tell me what it is, that would be helpful) and in this game, explain to me why I should invest any serious time or real money into gathering gear and equipment that could be stolen from me in a matter of seconds.

    ...you supposedly play such games thus feel free to do the explaining - why are you investing time and/or money when your stuff can be stolen in seconds?
    In case you missed this the first several times.

    That is my whole point, there is simply no good reason to invest into these games, that is why players leave and the games fail.

    Since had to play some game of "Spin About" You obviously could not think of any good reason why anyone should invest their time either, which just proves my whole point.
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,817
    edited March 3
    Ungood said:
    In case you missed this the first several times.

    That is my whole point, there is simply no good reason to invest into these games, that is why players leave and the games fail.


    ...you haven't answered the question.
    Ungood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Gdemami said:
    Ungood said:
    In case you missed this the first several times.

    That is my whole point, there is simply no good reason to invest into these games, that is why players leave and the games fail.


    ...you haven't answered the question.
    Neither have you.

    But, you not having an answer just makes me right.

    Been fun.
    Gdemami
  • bigmilkbigmilk Member UncommonPosts: 45
    I just realized.

    There is pvp in this thread
    lol, you should start a new thread "PVP THREADs, why do people keep making them?"
    AlBQuirky
  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 699
    I joined this site around 2006. We were arguing the same thing then; full loot pvp and progression through loot aren't compatible. Progression through other things like skill level, card collecting (or 'loot' that cant be taken), fort building or other mechanisms can still work. Also some players aren't that concerned about the progression aspect of mmorpg.

    For some reason we're always at ground zero for mmorpg 101 comprehension. This is probably the same for indie devs which might answer the original question.
    UngoodAlBQuirkypaulytheb
  • LerxstLerxst Member UncommonPosts: 646
    For EVE, its the odd one out of the bunch. Its the only sandbox full loot PvP MMO I like. None of the others have bothered to research why its successful

    Funny thing is, at one point CCP stated the vast majority of players didn't even leave high sec, didn't go to low sec (but many did) and very few actually went to nullsec, but most stayed in highsec mining and doing missions and pve stuff

    EVE is successful because it offers a TON of pve content. Many players only PVE. I stayed in the rookie starter corp for 3 years, and there was a huge majority that never joined other guilds and just did pve group stuff with others or solo stuff

    Most pvp MMOs offer very little pve content and 100% focus on pvp

    That and in EVE, high sec is very safe (BUT not 100% safe, can still be killed in high sec)

    Truth is, a heavy sandbox PvP MMO doesn't see much success because they offer no safe areas (HUGE areas of safety, even if there is still risk) and very little PVE content. One can say its cause they are made by indie companies, but it fails because EVE is also made by an indie company. But EVE did start off pretty barren.

    Every time I see a pvp server in an MMO, age of conan pvp servers, WoW pvp servers...the hardcore pvpers drive out the pvers and casual pvpers, and most people either leave pvp off (WoW) or stay on pve servers. I remember the pvpers killed the AoC pvp server, then they moved to the pve server cause their server was dead and tried ruining that too. 

    There is of course ultima online too. Its a sandbox pve game with optional pvp. But one has to ask, why did they make the game pvp optional? And that is easy, because they did state at one time they were bleeding players, and many people didn't want forced pvp (that quit, they did a survey at one point) and pve with pvp optional probably saved the MMO. UO is still one of the longest running MMOs today (is there an older MMO still running on official servers?), though classic UO servers do see some success for those who like that hardcore aspect.

    But it isn't like they said "lets kill our MMO and make it pve focused with pvp optional. I hate developing UO lets just kill it LOLOL". No, they had to change it because pvp was bleeding out the players. With that said, I actually did enjoy UO pvp, but I remember reading so many people quitting and complaining because of the ganking and what not. And back then when it was changed, EA was really different than EA today (wait did EA even own UO back then? Don't remember) so it wasnt cause of that either. But UO still is super popular on many of the official shards, more popular than many newer MMOs.


    You have to remember that UO was the first major title in the MMO universe. It's player base was relatively small and people didn't understand how to take advantage of the system, like they do now, especially since that system was still new and people were still exploring the limitations of it. Things like the Bounty system (Red) and the city guards worked, even though they didn't stop PvP activity.

    Then... more people showed up. More people learned how to exploit. More people learned the ins and outs. More people figured out who to get around being Red and how to avoid/misuse the city guards. And that's when the players started to bleed off - that, and the limited housing space also drove off many would-be players once they had to play the game of "camping a spot" for days on end.

    Steelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    I just realized.

    There is pvp in this thread
    For some posters. this whole forum is PvP.
    NorseGodAlBQuirkyPhaserlightkitarad
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,566
    I've always argued for a Justice System in Open World PvP games.
    With full loot, shouldn't there be something in the Justice System towards that?
    Shouldn't there be a spell or a Sci-Fi tag for players to place as ownership on key items? Something to use in a black market system usable as game play and actual recovery and return to the proper owners?
    Steelhelm

    Once upon a time....

  • SteelhelmSteelhelm Member UncommonPosts: 330
    I just realized.

    There is pvp in this thread
    It's a bug.
    ScotPhaserlight
    Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,324
    Indeed thats true, EVE is the exception. Mostly because EVE has a pretty sensible implementation of PvP that one can live with even if one doesnt like PvP.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    For EVE, its the odd one out of the bunch. Its the only sandbox full loot PvP MMO I like. None of the others have bothered to research why its successful

    Funny thing is, at one point CCP stated the vast majority of players didn't even leave high sec, didn't go to low sec (but many did) and very few actually went to nullsec, but most stayed in highsec mining and doing missions and pve stuff

    EVE is successful because it offers a TON of pve content. Many players only PVE. I stayed in the rookie starter corp for 3 years, and there was a huge majority that never joined other guilds and just did pve group stuff with others or solo stuff

    Most pvp MMOs offer very little pve content and 100% focus on pvp

    That and in EVE, high sec is very safe (BUT not 100% safe, can still be killed in high sec)

    Truth is, a heavy sandbox PvP MMO doesn't see much success because they offer no safe areas (HUGE areas of safety, even if there is still risk) and very little PVE content. One can say its cause they are made by indie companies, but it fails because EVE is also made by an indie company. But EVE did start off pretty barren.

    Every time I see a pvp server in an MMO, age of conan pvp servers, WoW pvp servers...the hardcore pvpers drive out the pvers and casual pvpers, and most people either leave pvp off (WoW) or stay on pve servers. I remember the pvpers killed the AoC pvp server, then they moved to the pve server cause their server was dead and tried ruining that too. 

    There is of course ultima online too. Its a sandbox pve game with optional pvp. But one has to ask, why did they make the game pvp optional? And that is easy, because they did state at one time they were bleeding players, and many people didn't want forced pvp (that quit, they did a survey at one point) and pve with pvp optional probably saved the MMO. UO is still one of the longest running MMOs today (is there an older MMO still running on official servers?), though classic UO servers do see some success for those who like that hardcore aspect.

    But it isn't like they said "lets kill our MMO and make it pve focused with pvp optional. I hate developing UO lets just kill it LOLOL". No, they had to change it because pvp was bleeding out the players. With that said, I actually did enjoy UO pvp, but I remember reading so many people quitting and complaining because of the ganking and what not. And back then when it was changed, EA was really different than EA today (wait did EA even own UO back then? Don't remember) so it wasnt cause of that either. But UO still is super popular on many of the official shards, more popular than many newer MMOs.


    No, EVE offers very poor PvE, and in fact the PvP is not great too. Tell me one funny, entertaining, amazing thing between you as EVE player and the AI. There is none, literally. You keep talking about PvP and PvE players. There are not such - there are solo players, and group players, and most are between. 

    So EVE - poor graphics, poor UI, poor quests, shallow world (no real AI), poor combat. But great game. Why? Because it is a PvP game. I can go and kill your ships even in the protected areas. Well, for sure I will lose mine. But there is not safe place. This is the design of the reality. At the same time the economy of the game is also very realistic - and this is the best part of EVE. They just made an immersive OW game, with FFA competition and cooperation. And this is great. 
    GdemamiUngood
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Well I am not sure what anyone else's take away was from this, but this topic has shown me something in regards to PvP games.

    I read what other people have said about why they enjoy PvP games, and thought about why I play PvP focused games, and it was simple, I play a PvP game because I enjoy the fights. I enjoy the whole thrill of facing and fighting another player, with that said, the more convoluted fuckery that a company puts into the game that pulls away from this, just makes the game worse.

    With that pointed out, Battle Royal games, which are basically Full Loot Open World PvP Games that have been refined down to the purest form of this mechanic, makes it so that none of these other Indie games will have any chance to pull in a larger audience, by offering those same mechanics with a bunch of unnecessary bullshit attached.




    Gdemamisquibblycraftseekerfree2play
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