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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,200
    Classifying people in broad strokes because they like a different game type is utterly silly.
    PhaserlightSteelhelmScorchien

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Get your shit straight and stop making shit up, fool. 
    I'd be insulted, if this came from someone who was not too chicken shit to play perma death.
    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,973
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Get your shit straight and stop making shit up, fool. 
    I'd be insulted, if this came from someone who was not too chicken shit to play perma death.
    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    AlBQuirkyScorchienimmodiumultimateduckHatefull

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,170
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Get your shit straight and stop making shit up, fool. 
    I'd be insulted, if this came from someone who was not too chicken shit to play perma death.
    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    Don’t bother, he’s coming up with whatever strawman he can think of and lying about what people say. He’s arguing opinion as fact. Really just a massive waste of time. 
    ScorchienSlapshot1188Ungood
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,572
    AlBQuirky said:
    The funny thing with deathmatch PvPers are two things:

    They tend to (but some do) not like gameplay like Planetside, where everyone is 100% equal and the only thing that matters is true player skill.

    But none of them ever want optional PvP. They want to force pvp on everyone that plays that MMO, the very suggestion of someone wanting optional PvP makes them rage harder than Hulk when he is angry.

    The other funny thing is they say "then go play a pve MMO"

    name me one sandbox PvE MMO that is NOT saga of ryzom

    Go on, do it. One sandbox PvE MMO or a sandbox optional PvE MMO.

    I suppose SWG counts, since PvP is optional. But I can name dozens of sandbox MMOs where its forced PvP

    But that goes back to...almost no PvPer wants optional PvP because then they have no one to gank

    Just look at BDO. All the pvpers get so angry at any suggestion of an optional pvp server, because they know it be vastly more popular than the pvp servers and all they'd have is gankers ganking gankers
    Well stated! It is rare for me to find a PvP'er that actually desires a challenge, though I'm told they do exist :)

    I see this as akin to players who want ultra difficult games, then game the game to min/max it so it is easy. Look at "perma-death" threads and you'll find a huge list of suggestions with ways to "avoid perma-death." Legacy characters that "inherit" all the dead characters stuff, ie: NOT dead. Some mechanic where the character comes back after some amount of time, ie: NOT dead. "Clones", ala EVE Online, ie: NOT dead.

    Many PvP'ers fit in this category quite nicely, as they will not engage unless they have minimal risk, if any. Any choice to PvP or not has them in an uproar. Any "penalties" has them crying. Separate them onto their own server (ala EQ) and they're not happy, for the reasons you described.

    I see this as basically testosterone filled chest beating, trying to sound all tough on the internet. It's kind of funny :)
    Well, now you can say you've met one.  I prefer a challenge to an easy kill.

    Indeed, if I find myself far outranking an opponent in terms of skill (this isn't easy to tell right away - it's not about equipment as much as how one plays) I will usually go easy and let them live.
    Glad to make your acquaintance! I know some players actually do desire a challenge. At times, I do too. Not often, but sometimes.

    There is a difference between hitting your head on a brick wall over and over (no possibility of winning) and arming oneself with a sledgehammer (that wall is coming down) :)

    Well met :)
    PhaserlightHatefull

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • SpiiderSpiider Member RarePosts: 779
    full loot pvp games are made because pvp crowd is the loudest. 

    No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited March 2
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Get your shit straight and stop making shit up, fool. 
    I'd be insulted, if this came from someone who was not too chicken shit to play perma death.
    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.

    Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.

    Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.

    Now ask you one question;

    What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.


    Steelhelmanemo
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,973
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Get your shit straight and stop making shit up, fool. 
    I'd be insulted, if this came from someone who was not too chicken shit to play perma death.
    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.

    Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.

    Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.

    Now ask you one question;

    What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.


    I would say commutability of items and all the political spectra engendered thereby.

    Look... have you ever played Dwarf Fortress?  One of the great things about it is when you pick something up it's not just handed to you by the game but passed down from generations of previous owners, all of whom may have struggled over it for various reasons.

    In a MMORPG this has a very real economic effect, as I hinted at earlier.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,200
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Get your shit straight and stop making shit up, fool. 
    I'd be insulted, if this came from someone who was not too chicken shit to play perma death.
    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.

    Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.

    Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.

    Now ask you one question;

    What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.


    I would say commutability of items and all the political spectra engendered thereby.

    Look... have you ever played Dwarf Fortress?  One of the great things about it is when you pick something up it's not just handed to you by the game but passed down from generations of previous owners, all of whom may have struggled over it for various reasons.

    In a MMORPG this has a very real economic effect, as I hinted at earlier.
    The simpler explanation is simply risk. Some people enjoy having an element of danger where dying has a consequence.  Others do not. Painting people who enjoy a particular game mechanic in broad strokes is a silly endeavor.  Heck, my preferences can even change based on a specific game...

    ChildoftheShadowsPhaserlightScorchienSteelhelmHatefull

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 426
    It's interesting seeing people who do not like or participate in PvP telling PvPers why they like PvP. 

    And they will argue their point as fact even though their opinion is based in ignorance.  It's kind of funny... and sad.  It makes me wonder what they are like in real life.
    AlBQuirkyChildoftheShadowsUngoodHatefullpaulytheb
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,572
    It's interesting seeing people who do not like or participate in PvP telling PvPers why they like PvP. 

    And they will argue their point as fact even though their opinion is based in ignorance.  It's kind of funny... and sad.  It makes me wonder what they are like in real life.
    Guilty as charged! I just share my own experiences and I'm sure others have different and varied ones, too :)
    Ungood

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,973
    The simpler explanation is simply risk. Some people enjoy having an element of danger where dying has a consequence.  Others do not. Painting people who enjoy a particular game mechanic in broad strokes is a silly endeavor.  Heck, my preferences can even change based on a specific game...

    Agreed.  Perma death also adds risk, however.  I wanted to address specifically what full loot adds, and why it's so different from perma death.  There are dozens of things you probably wouldn't think about unless you've played a MMORPG with perma death (such as Realm of the Mad God) and compared it to a MMORPG with full loot (such as the one in my signature).  They play very differently.

    In a perma death game, I tend to be very careful about my health and not take as many risks.  In a full loot game without perma death, battles can rage over dropped items.  Crafting is also important as items are not bound to any single character but can be transferred among groups, allies, conquering enemies ad infinitum.

    As a funny aside, watch the opening to Lord of the Rings and count how many times full loot happens.  Do you think Frodo would have Black Riders after him if it weren't for full loot?

    This is somewhat tongue in cheek but it illustrates the point I'm getting at: something Tolkien understood very well.  Transferring an item from one person to the next can have many different meanings.
    Steelhelm

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,170
    AlBQuirky said:
    It's interesting seeing people who do not like or participate in PvP telling PvPers why they like PvP. 

    And they will argue their point as fact even though their opinion is based in ignorance.  It's kind of funny... and sad.  It makes me wonder what they are like in real life.
    Guilty as charged! I just share my own experiences and I'm sure others have different and varied ones, too :)
    Nah, sharing your experiences and explaining why you do or don’t like something is great. Telling people why they like something is idiotic and trollish
    Steelhelm
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Phaserlight said:

    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.

    Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.

    Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.

    Now ask you one question;

    What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.


    I would say commutability of items and all the political spectra engendered thereby.

    Look... have you ever played Dwarf Fortress?  One of the great things about it is when you pick something up it's not just handed to you by the game but passed down from generations of previous owners, all of whom may have struggled over it for various reasons.

    In a MMORPG this has a very real economic effect, as I hinted at earlier.
    But it really does not have this effect.

    Think about what others have said, They will all talk about how the gear they lose is easy to replace, in many ways, inconsequential to them, and will extol upon this virtue, or never having anything you are not willing to swiftly lose.

    Now Obviously they are PK gankers with the goal to kill other players for loot, and thus outfit disposable gear as they hunt for players will less disposal loot to make the game profitable for them, and, less profitable for others.

    But if everyone adopted their approach, just using disposable gear easy to recover gear, dying has no sting beyond dying to a PvP game that has no loot, or even dying to a PvE game, where nothing is lost, thus making the full loot a minor annoyance at best. As for the victor, they simply get loot gen trash that has no market value, so killing has little profit for them as well.

    Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value given all they provide is a greater loss to the person that has it, and a greater reward for the person that takes it. Which, makes it vastly pointless for anyone to buy.

    This means, it lessens all the other aspects of the game that would lead up to those high ticket items.

    Before you disagree with me, Again, read what other posters have said about when playing these games, they have easy to replace disposable gear. 

    Thus it becomes the inherent nature of the game design to devolve into a world of nothing but gankers, as no crafter or builder, or harvester is going to waste time in a game like that, as it is simply not profitable for them.

    The only way this gets combated, is with a rise in mega guilds, where large guilds will take control of the higher value resources, protect their crafters and builders, and thus ensure that only they are theirs have access to the strongest and highest ticket items, this becomes a spiral upward, as they gain better gear, items, equipment and work in large teams to protect their own, thus ensure they maintain control and possession of their high ticket items, they build a vast power disparity between them and everyone else, and only other mega guilds can have a chance to rival them, thus everyone needs to be a thrall to a larger guild if they want to have any chance at meaningful progression, independents and small guilds may as well move on to some other game as well.

    These systems by design are self defeating to community growth, or player progression.

    In short, the Full Loot Mechanic does not add anything to the game that can't be provided better by other means.


    GdemamiBrainy
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited March 2
    It's interesting seeing people who do not like or participate in PvP telling PvPers why they like PvP. 

    And they will argue their point as fact even though their opinion is based in ignorance.  It's kind of funny... and sad.  It makes me wonder what they are like in real life.
    Minor wondering, can you see my sig?
  • kitaradkitarad Member EpicPosts: 5,263
    You know I don't play PvP games but I do think that simply categorizing and whittling down the reasons people enjoy a mechanic in simple black and white categories is very misguided. People enjoy various things and that is why we have so many different types of games and thank god for choice.

    It is also very wrong in my book to try and project your likes and dislikes or reasons for enjoying or disliking something on to another person or groups of individuals.
    Slapshot1188ChildoftheShadows

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    The simpler explanation is simply risk. Some people enjoy having an element of danger where dying has a consequence.  Others do not. Painting people who enjoy a particular game mechanic in broad strokes is a silly endeavor.  Heck, my preferences can even change based on a specific game...

    Agreed.  Perma death also adds risk, however.  I wanted to address specifically what full loot adds, and why it's so different from perma death.  There are dozens of things you probably wouldn't think about unless you've played a MMORPG with perma death (such as Realm of the Mad God) and compared it to a MMORPG with full loot (such as the one in my signature).  They play very differently.

    In a perma death game, I tend to be very careful about my health and not take as many risks.  In a full loot game without perma death, battles can rage over dropped items.  Crafting is also important as items are not bound to any single character but can be transferred among groups, allies, conquering enemies ad infinitum.

    As a funny aside, watch the opening to Lord of the Rings and count how many times full loot happens.  Do you think Frodo would have Black Riders after him if it weren't for full loot?

    This is somewhat tongue in cheek but it illustrates the point I'm getting at: something Tolkien understood very well.  Transferring an item from one person to the next can have many different meanings.
    This only works, if there is limited resources, (IE: Only one "One Ring") and no way to effectively secure the Precious from theft.

    In short, the game would need to be made in such a way that others could recover the one-ring, regardless if Frodo logged off for the night.

    In that set up, I think a game like Chronicles of Elyra, will have the best world design for a full-loot game, they also have a form of perma-death, so, they are not low balling the risk factor either. So it will be a game I will look forward to playing, even with said mechanics.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    kitarad said:
    You know I don't play PvP games but I do think that simply categorizing and whittling down the reasons people enjoy a mechanic in simple black and white categories is very misguided. People enjoy various things and that is why we have so many different types of games and thank god for choice.

    It is also very wrong in my book to try and project your likes and dislikes or reasons for enjoying or disliking something on to another person or groups of individuals.
    Ok. Fair enough.

    So, here is what I'll offer up to you. Go ask all the other players that like Full-Loot games, what their motive is behind liking the full loot mechanic.

    Then, think about that motive for a bit, and see if it what they say to you amounts anything significantly deeper or more involved than "I like the idea of killing other people for their stuff" 

    Come back to me with this list of other motives, and, I will gladly and openly admit I am wrong, if, and only if, what you can provide to me is exclusive to Full-Loot games and really is nothing more than vastly sugar coated variants of "I like the idea of killing people for their stuff" 

    To be honest, I am a cynic, so I don't think you will be able to pull it off, but, also, I honestly would love to be wrong about this.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,973
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Phaserlight said:

    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.

    Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.

    Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.

    Now ask you one question;

    What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.


    I would say commutability of items and all the political spectra engendered thereby.

    Look... have you ever played Dwarf Fortress?  One of the great things about it is when you pick something up it's not just handed to you by the game but passed down from generations of previous owners, all of whom may have struggled over it for various reasons.

    In a MMORPG this has a very real economic effect, as I hinted at earlier.
    But it really does not have this effect.

    Think about what others have said, They will all talk about how the gear they lose is easy to replace, in many ways, inconsequential to them, and will extol upon this virtue, or never having anything you are not willing to swiftly lose.

    Now Obviously they are PK gankers with the goal to kill other players for loot, and thus outfit disposable gear as they hunt for players will less disposal loot to make the game profitable for them, and, less profitable for others.

    But if everyone adopted their approach, just using disposable gear easy to recover gear, dying has no sting beyond dying to a PvP game that has no loot, or even dying to a PvE game, where nothing is lost, thus making the full loot a minor annoyance at best. As for the victor, they simply get loot gen trash that has no market value, so killing has little profit for them as well.

    Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value given all they provide is a greater loss to the person that has it, and a greater reward for the person that takes it. Which, makes it vastly pointless for anyone to buy.

    This means, it lessens all the other aspects of the game that would lead up to those high ticket items.

    Before you disagree with me, Again, read what other posters have said about when playing these games, they have easy to replace disposable gear. 

    Thus it becomes the inherent nature of the game design to devolve into a world of nothing but gankers, as no crafter or builder, or harvester is going to waste time in a game like that, as it is simply not profitable for them.

    The only way this gets combated, is with a rise in mega guilds, where large guilds will take control of the higher value resources, protect their crafters and builders, and thus ensure that only they are theirs have access to the strongest and highest ticket items, this becomes a spiral upward, as they gain better gear, items, equipment and work in large teams to protect their own, thus ensure they maintain control and possession of their high ticket items, they build a vast power disparity between them and everyone else, and only other mega guilds can have a chance to rival them, thus everyone needs to be a thrall to a larger guild if they want to have any chance at meaningful progression, independents and small guilds may as well move on to some other game as well.

    These systems by design are self defeating to community growth, or player progression.

    In short, the Full Loot Mechanic does not add anything to the game that can't be provided better by other means.


    This entire post is based on a faulty premise because in the full loot PvP game I play there are many lootable items which are rare, very hard to come by, or which represent hundreds of hours of effort.  This is what I mean by "the irreplaceability and relative indestructibility of items" back on page 14.  I'm not interested in "what other posters have said" as much as my own play experiences.  One is theory, the other is evidence.

    "Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value" is patently ridiculous.  Risk doesn't decrease value; if anything it increases the value of certain items.
    Steelhelm

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Phaserlight said:

    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.

    Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.

    Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.

    Now ask you one question;

    What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.


    I would say commutability of items and all the political spectra engendered thereby.

    Look... have you ever played Dwarf Fortress?  One of the great things about it is when you pick something up it's not just handed to you by the game but passed down from generations of previous owners, all of whom may have struggled over it for various reasons.

    In a MMORPG this has a very real economic effect, as I hinted at earlier.
    But it really does not have this effect.

    Think about what others have said, They will all talk about how the gear they lose is easy to replace, in many ways, inconsequential to them, and will extol upon this virtue, or never having anything you are not willing to swiftly lose.

    Now Obviously they are PK gankers with the goal to kill other players for loot, and thus outfit disposable gear as they hunt for players will less disposal loot to make the game profitable for them, and, less profitable for others.

    But if everyone adopted their approach, just using disposable gear easy to recover gear, dying has no sting beyond dying to a PvP game that has no loot, or even dying to a PvE game, where nothing is lost, thus making the full loot a minor annoyance at best. As for the victor, they simply get loot gen trash that has no market value, so killing has little profit for them as well.

    Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value given all they provide is a greater loss to the person that has it, and a greater reward for the person that takes it. Which, makes it vastly pointless for anyone to buy.

    This means, it lessens all the other aspects of the game that would lead up to those high ticket items.

    Before you disagree with me, Again, read what other posters have said about when playing these games, they have easy to replace disposable gear. 

    Thus it becomes the inherent nature of the game design to devolve into a world of nothing but gankers, as no crafter or builder, or harvester is going to waste time in a game like that, as it is simply not profitable for them.

    The only way this gets combated, is with a rise in mega guilds, where large guilds will take control of the higher value resources, protect their crafters and builders, and thus ensure that only they are theirs have access to the strongest and highest ticket items, this becomes a spiral upward, as they gain better gear, items, equipment and work in large teams to protect their own, thus ensure they maintain control and possession of their high ticket items, they build a vast power disparity between them and everyone else, and only other mega guilds can have a chance to rival them, thus everyone needs to be a thrall to a larger guild if they want to have any chance at meaningful progression, independents and small guilds may as well move on to some other game as well.

    These systems by design are self defeating to community growth, or player progression.

    In short, the Full Loot Mechanic does not add anything to the game that can't be provided better by other means.


    This entire post is based on a faulty premise because in the full loot PvP game I play there are many lootable items which are rare, very hard to come by, or which represent hundreds of hours of effort.  This is what I mean by "the irreplaceability and relative indestructibility of items" back on page 14.  I'm not interested in "what other posters have said" as much as my own play experiences.  One is theory, the other is evidence.

    "Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value" is patently ridiculous.  Risk doesn't decrease value; if anything it increases the value of certain items.
    Just to be clear, are talking about the mobile game in your Sig ?
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,200
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Phaserlight said:

    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.

    Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.

    Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.

    Now ask you one question;

    What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.


    I would say commutability of items and all the political spectra engendered thereby.

    Look... have you ever played Dwarf Fortress?  One of the great things about it is when you pick something up it's not just handed to you by the game but passed down from generations of previous owners, all of whom may have struggled over it for various reasons.

    In a MMORPG this has a very real economic effect, as I hinted at earlier.
    But it really does not have this effect.

    Think about what others have said, They will all talk about how the gear they lose is easy to replace, in many ways, inconsequential to them, and will extol upon this virtue, or never having anything you are not willing to swiftly lose.

    Now Obviously they are PK gankers with the goal to kill other players for loot, and thus outfit disposable gear as they hunt for players will less disposal loot to make the game profitable for them, and, less profitable for others.

    But if everyone adopted their approach, just using disposable gear easy to recover gear, dying has no sting beyond dying to a PvP game that has no loot, or even dying to a PvE game, where nothing is lost, thus making the full loot a minor annoyance at best. As for the victor, they simply get loot gen trash that has no market value, so killing has little profit for them as well.

    Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value given all they provide is a greater loss to the person that has it, and a greater reward for the person that takes it. Which, makes it vastly pointless for anyone to buy.

    This means, it lessens all the other aspects of the game that would lead up to those high ticket items.

    Before you disagree with me, Again, read what other posters have said about when playing these games, they have easy to replace disposable gear. 

    Thus it becomes the inherent nature of the game design to devolve into a world of nothing but gankers, as no crafter or builder, or harvester is going to waste time in a game like that, as it is simply not profitable for them.

    The only way this gets combated, is with a rise in mega guilds, where large guilds will take control of the higher value resources, protect their crafters and builders, and thus ensure that only they are theirs have access to the strongest and highest ticket items, this becomes a spiral upward, as they gain better gear, items, equipment and work in large teams to protect their own, thus ensure they maintain control and possession of their high ticket items, they build a vast power disparity between them and everyone else, and only other mega guilds can have a chance to rival them, thus everyone needs to be a thrall to a larger guild if they want to have any chance at meaningful progression, independents and small guilds may as well move on to some other game as well.

    These systems by design are self defeating to community growth, or player progression.

    In short, the Full Loot Mechanic does not add anything to the game that can't be provided better by other means.


    This entire post is based on a faulty premise because in the full loot PvP game I play there are many lootable items which are rare, very hard to come by, or which represent hundreds of hours of effort.  This is what I mean by "the irreplaceability and relative indestructibility of items" back on page 14.  I'm not interested in "what other posters have said" as much as my own play experiences.  One is theory, the other is evidence.

    "Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value" is patently ridiculous.  Risk doesn't decrease value; if anything it increases the value of certain items.
    Any well designed game will have value distinctions between items.  A good game will find a sweet spot where you can be OK wearing some gear that is somewhat common, but have an advantage by wearing and risking better equipment.  
    PhaserlightSteelhelm

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,973
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Phaserlight said:

    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
    They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.

    As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
    No.

    Perma death means you only get one life.

    Full loot means the winner can take everything.

    They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
    Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.

    Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.

    Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.

    Now ask you one question;

    What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.


    I would say commutability of items and all the political spectra engendered thereby.

    Look... have you ever played Dwarf Fortress?  One of the great things about it is when you pick something up it's not just handed to you by the game but passed down from generations of previous owners, all of whom may have struggled over it for various reasons.

    In a MMORPG this has a very real economic effect, as I hinted at earlier.
    But it really does not have this effect.

    Think about what others have said, They will all talk about how the gear they lose is easy to replace, in many ways, inconsequential to them, and will extol upon this virtue, or never having anything you are not willing to swiftly lose.

    Now Obviously they are PK gankers with the goal to kill other players for loot, and thus outfit disposable gear as they hunt for players will less disposal loot to make the game profitable for them, and, less profitable for others.

    But if everyone adopted their approach, just using disposable gear easy to recover gear, dying has no sting beyond dying to a PvP game that has no loot, or even dying to a PvE game, where nothing is lost, thus making the full loot a minor annoyance at best. As for the victor, they simply get loot gen trash that has no market value, so killing has little profit for them as well.

    Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value given all they provide is a greater loss to the person that has it, and a greater reward for the person that takes it. Which, makes it vastly pointless for anyone to buy.

    This means, it lessens all the other aspects of the game that would lead up to those high ticket items.

    Before you disagree with me, Again, read what other posters have said about when playing these games, they have easy to replace disposable gear. 

    Thus it becomes the inherent nature of the game design to devolve into a world of nothing but gankers, as no crafter or builder, or harvester is going to waste time in a game like that, as it is simply not profitable for them.

    The only way this gets combated, is with a rise in mega guilds, where large guilds will take control of the higher value resources, protect their crafters and builders, and thus ensure that only they are theirs have access to the strongest and highest ticket items, this becomes a spiral upward, as they gain better gear, items, equipment and work in large teams to protect their own, thus ensure they maintain control and possession of their high ticket items, they build a vast power disparity between them and everyone else, and only other mega guilds can have a chance to rival them, thus everyone needs to be a thrall to a larger guild if they want to have any chance at meaningful progression, independents and small guilds may as well move on to some other game as well.

    These systems by design are self defeating to community growth, or player progression.

    In short, the Full Loot Mechanic does not add anything to the game that can't be provided better by other means.


    This entire post is based on a faulty premise because in the full loot PvP game I play there are many lootable items which are rare, very hard to come by, or which represent hundreds of hours of effort.  This is what I mean by "the irreplaceability and relative indestructibility of items" back on page 14.  I'm not interested in "what other posters have said" as much as my own play experiences.  One is theory, the other is evidence.

    "Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value" is patently ridiculous.  Risk doesn't decrease value; if anything it increases the value of certain items.
    Just to be clear, are talking about the mobile game in your Sig ?
    It's a PC game which runs on mobile; the very first MMORPG ported from one to the other, and it runs cross platform.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,767
    Can someone count the number of posts made bt Ungood, im just curious.

    Also, when quoting, try to clean up the quote so you dont have to scroll 10 times to get to the next post. 

    Also, i have played mortal and EVE and hardcore diablo 2 and pked and dueled in all of them. In all of them i ganked at times and other times i didnt. It gave me the option and im okay with that.
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,233
    Ungood said:
    kitarad said:
    You know I don't play PvP games but I do think that simply categorizing and whittling down the reasons people enjoy a mechanic in simple black and white categories is very misguided. People enjoy various things and that is why we have so many different types of games and thank god for choice.

    It is also very wrong in my book to try and project your likes and dislikes or reasons for enjoying or disliking something on to another person or groups of individuals.
    Ok. Fair enough.

    So, here is what I'll offer up to you. Go ask all the other players that like Full-Loot games, what their motive is behind liking the full loot mechanic.

    Then, think about that motive for a bit, and see if it what they say to you amounts anything significantly deeper or more involved than "I like the idea of killing other people for their stuff" 

    Come back to me with this list of other motives, and, I will gladly and openly admit I am wrong, if, and only if, what you can provide to me is exclusive to Full-Loot games and really is nothing more than vastly sugar coated variants of "I like the idea of killing people for their stuff" 

    To be honest, I am a cynic, so I don't think you will be able to pull it off, but, also, I honestly would love to be wrong about this.

    I like permadeath and full loot Pvp. Not so much to take other peoples stuff, although I do as that is a mechanic of the games, I also like the challenge of seeing how far I can make it on my skill and wits. Simply put I like the challenge and the risk.

    You make arguments based on your own experiences and try to sell them as fact. This is folly, not everyone that plays full loot and or permadeath is a troll or bully. You call people candy asses for not liking the games you enjoy, which only serves to make you sound ignorant in the extreme. How boring would gaming be if everyone only liked the same thing? Pong would have been the height of gaming ingenuity how boring is that?

    These games come with the normal array of whiners, trolls, bullies, and asshats, I will not deny that, but there are those that play simply for the challenge. In short, you're wrong.

    Slapshot1188Steelhelm

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

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