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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,441
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    But again, you aren't understanding the mechanism that is in these games.

    Of course people don't like when other's take their stuff. But that's not the issue.

    That's like saying "tell me one person who likes to lose. Therefore people should always win."
    No, it's really you that don't seem to grasp this, the whole idea of a full loot game is to take someone else's stuff, that is the solitary reason the mechanic exists at all. 

    So, yes, the whole idea and issue is a game designed around the idea of rewarding players for being murderous thieves and being able to steal your stuff, is very much is the issue here. Remove the loot mechanic, and the game changes drastically.

    But, I doubt you will ever really agree to that, I wager your rose colored glasses playing EvE are the culprit here,  so I'll end this with a point we shall agree on.

    This little bit.

    Sovrath said:

    Friends of mine played in a new music group (20th century "classical" music) and they never had any illusions that they were going to get anything more than 15 guys in the audience, some of whom dragged their girlfriends with them.

    I'll buy into the idea that they know they are making a dead-end game that will never go anywhere. So, long as they have no illusions about this, their money and their time.

    If they are under some delusion they will make the next break out hit, or whatever, than I can only feel sorry for them.
    We have people in this thread being clear, explicitly telling you the way it is as they play these games and yet your only defense is that it's "rose colored glasses?"

    Murderous Thieves? Pretty much every game that has combat makes you a murderer in some light or another. It's not as intense as that unless you make it so. Which is what you do.

    But "yes" we can at least agree on the last bit there. Though my take on it is that you actually have issues with people thinking that they can make these games and be "the next great thing" and it seems it is some sort of affront to your sensibilities.

    I say "good for them, keep plugging away and maybe some day you will be correct but until that time just accept that you might not get the blockbuster you want."





  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,441
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    BadSpock said:

    If indie devs wanted to make popular games, they wouldn't touch open PvP / FFA sandboxes with a 10 foot pole.




    I don't think they are looking to make popular games. Oh sure, people who make things want others to like them and who wouldn't want to make something that was a critical and commercial darling?

    But actually do things just because they like them and know full well that they aren't going to have large audiences.

    They are making games they want to play. I think some are confused as to the popularity of their chosen game types but you have to believe in what you are doing in order to do it. Can't be half ass.

    Friends of mine played in a new music group (20th century "classical" music) and they never had any illusions that they were going to get anything more than 15 guys in the audience, some of whom dragged their girlfriends with them.





    I have never met or even heard a game dev say anything like "Man I love games where I can get ganked and have all the shit I collected stolen from me"

    In fact, I will bet you, most of the devs for full-loot pvp MMO's don't actually play their own games for fun, and in reality are looking to make the next break-out hit, hoping to be the next Fortnight, or WoW, or something.

    Which will not happen if they keep making games with designs that have already failed in the past. 
    I think that's a rather arrogant stance.

    The idea that you can't accept that people have different tastes is pretty self centered. That people can't possibly make things, spend time creating, things that you can't possibly find interesting.

    I've heard players say (on these forums no less) that they find the idea of being attacked in the open exciting and that having their stuff on the line makes their encounters more intense and worth fighting for.

    I don't see any reason not to believe them.

    The world has different people who like different things. You should probably accept it or else you are just going to find everything insufferable.


    I have never met any MMO player that likes losing their stuff to another player.

    Anyone want to step up and say they like it when someone steals their stuff ? 

    As for various likes, Personally, I'd play a Perma-Death MMO long before I would ever play a Full-Loot PvP MMO with the ability to respawn.
    Hi!

    Sure, it makes it more exciting, by the very tokens @Sovrath mentioned.  It also goes both ways. It's a very power-flat game with an extremely high skill ceiling (think fencing or saber fighting).

    I also believe it literally helps the game economy for archaic reasons, as I mentioned back on page 2 of this thread.
    So you enjoy having people steal your stuff?

    So tell me, what Full Loot PvP MMO do you play as a your primary MMO?

    Gonna take a bet it's EVE.
    And once again it's not about "enjoying people taking your stuff" so stop it.
    squibbly



  • Um4dBruhUm4dBruh Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 6
    All full loot pvp games are half assed. They gotta go all the way. If you get killed, you're dead. Make a new toon. 
    UngoodSteelhelmMaurgrim
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,441
    All full loot pvp games are half assed. They gotta go all the way. If you get killed, you're dead. Make a new toon. 
    I'd be for that if the player had "lives" (like an arcade game) and one can use lives up or, if you meet some criteria, earn lives up to a certain amount (again, like an arcade game.)



  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    All full loot pvp games are half assed. They gotta go all the way. If you get killed, you're dead. Make a new toon. 
    I have to agree, if they are trying for a hardcore game, with full loot PvP and didn't have the brass to go perma-death as well, they are just lame. 
    Gdemamisquibbly
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 422
    It seems to me that full loot PvP works ok with scifi type games, mostly because of how the loot system is in those types of games. High end loot is acquired via crafting, upgrading, player markets, salvaging, etc. It is somewhat disposable.

    On the flip side, full look PvP doesn't work all to well in a fantasy setting. Here, high end loot is often acquired from large raids, epic quests and some through crafting in which the materials come from raids and quests. It is very much not disposable.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Gdemami
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,441
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    AlBQuirkyultimateducksquibbly



  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,973
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    BadSpock said:

    If indie devs wanted to make popular games, they wouldn't touch open PvP / FFA sandboxes with a 10 foot pole.




    I don't think they are looking to make popular games. Oh sure, people who make things want others to like them and who wouldn't want to make something that was a critical and commercial darling?

    But actually do things just because they like them and know full well that they aren't going to have large audiences.

    They are making games they want to play. I think some are confused as to the popularity of their chosen game types but you have to believe in what you are doing in order to do it. Can't be half ass.

    Friends of mine played in a new music group (20th century "classical" music) and they never had any illusions that they were going to get anything more than 15 guys in the audience, some of whom dragged their girlfriends with them.





    I have never met or even heard a game dev say anything like "Man I love games where I can get ganked and have all the shit I collected stolen from me"

    In fact, I will bet you, most of the devs for full-loot pvp MMO's don't actually play their own games for fun, and in reality are looking to make the next break-out hit, hoping to be the next Fortnight, or WoW, or something.

    Which will not happen if they keep making games with designs that have already failed in the past. 
    I think that's a rather arrogant stance.

    The idea that you can't accept that people have different tastes is pretty self centered. That people can't possibly make things, spend time creating, things that you can't possibly find interesting.

    I've heard players say (on these forums no less) that they find the idea of being attacked in the open exciting and that having their stuff on the line makes their encounters more intense and worth fighting for.

    I don't see any reason not to believe them.

    The world has different people who like different things. You should probably accept it or else you are just going to find everything insufferable.


    I have never met any MMO player that likes losing their stuff to another player.

    Anyone want to step up and say they like it when someone steals their stuff ? 

    As for various likes, Personally, I'd play a Perma-Death MMO long before I would ever play a Full-Loot PvP MMO with the ability to respawn.
    Hi!

    Sure, it makes it more exciting, by the very tokens @Sovrath mentioned.  It also goes both ways. It's a very power-flat game with an extremely high skill ceiling (think fencing or saber fighting).

    I also believe it literally helps the game economy for archaic reasons, as I mentioned back on page 2 of this thread.
    So you enjoy having people steal your stuff?

    So tell me, what Full Loot PvP MMO do you play as a your primary MMO?

    Gonna take a bet it's EVE.
    And once again it's not about "enjoying people taking your stuff" so stop it.
    Wrong, @Ungood

    You must be on mobile, otherwise my signature would make it obvious. 

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Gdemamisquibbly
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,169
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Get your shit straight and stop making shit up, fool. 
    squibbly
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,441
    edited March 1
    Ungood said:

    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.

    Depending on your definition of "gank" I've never ganked anyone. Sorry to, yet again, burst your world view bubble. I've only ever attacked people who attacked me and have always done so face on.

    which is why I know you are just talking to talk.

    And "no" I'm fully able to admit that I bought playboy for everything but the articles and have no issues with that.

    And when Hugh Hefnger died I purchased the complete centerfolds, got together with friends for our "pub and bad movie night" and toasted the man and his work.

    But you have your world view and anything that doesn't fit into it can't possibly "be." The scary thing is that you most likely run your "real" life in this highly judgmental way.

    edit: I should add, I'm not trying to be rude either but when I see people so rigid in their thinking I can't help but wonder.
    Post edited by Sovrath on
    Slapshot1188squibbly



  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    I think the best you will see in MMORPGs are SWG style with players being ij open conflict and people being able to get temporary flags.  MMORPG audience just isn't into PvP. 

    I am not really into power gapped PvP at all.  At least not into one where I can't touch the player at all because of magic level power platforms.  Ever climbing gear scores are bad.  

    For me indie PvP games usually break my rules for wanting to play.  There has to be a purpose behind the killing.  I need territorial control with resources.  No vertical advancement based on grinding levels out through mobs or quest.  
    Steelhelm
  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 91
    They're extremely niche and supported by tiny player bases.  There will never, ever be a full loot pvp MMO that catches traction and stays mainstream for very long.  Some of them release with a bang and sunset in 6 mo, some of them never even get to the bang phase, but regardless they are all doomed to sleep with the fishes sooner rather than later.
    MaurgrimUngoodsquibbly
  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 91
    Strycker said:
    Because they do work; I'm not sure why you think they don't outside of your opinion.
    EVE, Albion, BDO, and LOA are all making profits. Darkfall survives and doesn't thrive because of 1000 other things wrong with the game, same with Mortal. Hell, the most popular genre in gaming (BR) is essentially full-loot. Sure, it's based on a 20 minute session, but in most of the aforementioned games you don't really lose more than 20 minutes of work if you die regardless.


    Not sure why BDO is on that list.  You drop no loot when PVPd/PKd, in fact you lose almost nothing, and it's a really easy game to punish PKs in via karma bombing.  Albion has a tiny player base, but full drop kinda works because the gear in Albion has little permanence, you drop your gear and go craft a new set for pennies.
    Maurgrim
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,904
      Somebody is wearing ..........

    Image result for horse blinder images

    Phaserlightsquibbly
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,013
    Well , some happy to have full loot pvp , but when you talk about hash punishment for unfair PK then they just walk away .

    Type of players who like to stay in shadow to hurt other for fun but can't take risk of being a prey



    UngoodAlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Get your shit straight and stop making shit up, fool. 
    I'd be insulted, if this came from someone who was not too chicken shit to play perma death.
    Gdemami
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    .. so after all is said and done. Apparently, these Indie developers make full loot PvP games because they want to want to make the next EvE clone, and do about as well as any clone of a successful games does. 
  • SarlaSarla Member UncommonPosts: 41
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.

    Old School full loot Ultima Online was one of the funnest times of gaming for me ever.  I still play it from time to time on private servers.  That game has a lot of crafting too, however I never did that.  I would just use what I found from doing treasure hunts at sea or land, or took from corpses.   or you could play a thief and steal a great weapon or regs.

    Best game ever.  The rest is for cry babies like you
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Sarla said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.

    Old School full loot Ultima Online was one of the funnest times of gaming for me ever.  I still play it from time to time on private servers.  That game has a lot of crafting too, however I never did that.  I would just use what I found from doing treasure hunts at sea or land, or took from corpses.   or you could play a thief and steal a great weapon or regs.

    Best game ever.  The rest is for cry babies like you
    Just a question.. if it was such a great game, why are you playing on a private server and not the open game?
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,572
    edited March 2
    The funny thing with deathmatch PvPers are two things:

    They tend to (but some do) not like gameplay like Planetside, where everyone is 100% equal and the only thing that matters is true player skill.

    But none of them ever want optional PvP. They want to force pvp on everyone that plays that MMO, the very suggestion of someone wanting optional PvP makes them rage harder than Hulk when he is angry.

    The other funny thing is they say "then go play a pve MMO"

    name me one sandbox PvE MMO that is NOT saga of ryzom

    Go on, do it. One sandbox PvE MMO or a sandbox optional PvE MMO.

    I suppose SWG counts, since PvP is optional. But I can name dozens of sandbox MMOs where its forced PvP

    But that goes back to...almost no PvPer wants optional PvP because then they have no one to gank

    Just look at BDO. All the pvpers get so angry at any suggestion of an optional pvp server, because they know it be vastly more popular than the pvp servers and all they'd have is gankers ganking gankers
    Well stated! It is rare for me to find a PvP'er that actually desires a challenge, though I'm told they do exist :)

    I see this as akin to players who want ultra difficult games, then game the game to min/max it so it is easy. Look at "perma-death" threads and you'll find a huge list of suggestions with ways to "avoid perma-death." Legacy characters that "inherit" all the dead characters stuff, ie: NOT dead. Some mechanic where the character comes back after some amount of time, ie: NOT dead. "Clones", ala EVE Online, ie: NOT dead.

    Many PvP'ers fit in this category quite nicely, as they will not engage unless they have minimal risk, if any. Any choice to PvP or not has them in an uproar. Any "penalties" has them crying. Separate them onto their own server (ala EQ) and they're not happy, for the reasons you described.

    I see this as basically testosterone filled chest beating, trying to sound all tough on the internet. It's kind of funny :)
    iixviiiixUngoodbarasawa

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,973
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    When everyone else disagrees with you, you need to take a step back and try to figure out where you went wrong.

    You can not like something and still understand why some people like it. I loved playing Eve. I loved playing Darkfall Online and I love playing Rise of Agon. No one likes the part where they lose stuff, they like the thrill of taking the chance. The loss hurts (sort of), but the win is glorious.

    You say you'd rather play a perma death mmo than a full loot mmo. You are saying you would rather lose everything than just your stuff. All your progression GONE forever and you have to start over... rather than just going to grab some items. I'm pretty sure you are mentally ill.
    LOL, everyone does not disagree with me, it's like 4 EvE Fanboi's, most of which sound like pitiful gankers. 

    And yes, 100%, if the goal is to make PvP this scary, intense, risky event, anything less than Full Loot Permadeath is just being candy ass annoying, if the goal is to be hardcore, go all the way, or don't bother, this is why these half assed full loot PvP games never take off.
    Annnnd once again you are looking through things completely through your eyes and not taking into account other people. Man, what the heck you must be like in real life with so many people living very different/alternate lives?

    So again, if it doesn't fit into your definition then people who enjoy full loot games are pitiful gankers (can't be anything else) EvE fanboi's and then you come up with this nonsense of "well, if you want to hardcore then the only way is to add permadeath.

    How about you stop forcing your opinions on other people. Just listen to them when they say they enjoy these games for x, y and z and leave it at that?

    Oh wait you can't do that because anyone who doesn't fit into your definition has to a, b and c.

    And to be fair "yes" I'm very sure there are some pshycopath wannabees who play these games. But I've encountered some very horrendous people in regular ol' pve games who would most likely take you out and dance on your grave if they could.

    Bad people are bad people. No matter what game they play. Same can be said for good people.
    Look, not being rude here, but at this point you sound like one of those people that used to say the their pile of playboy was purely for the articles, yes.. sure, we all believe you that you and others like you do not play Full Loot Games to gank and steal from other players about as much as any of us really believed that the pile of smut stowed under the bed is purely for the articles.

    I mean really, just look at Child of the Shadows, talks about how if they die they just get more stuff from their bank, but at the same time talks about looting stuff that took 100's of hours to make/collect, this is purely the game play of a ganker.

    In the end, no one likes to lose the stuff they worked for, that is why these games never take off. Because they are half assed soft core ganker havens.

    On the flip side of that, games like DayZ, made on a crappy bug ridden system like the ARMA2, were an explosive success, and built a whole genre of survival games, and the reason why you and yours do not like it, is because you are gankers, and never want to really risk losing your stuff, which is what would happen in an Perma-Death game.

    SO thanks for the discussion, but reality is, any Dev that would believe the tripe you are spewing, deserves to be a part of a dead end game, that does not go anywhere.
    Get your shit straight and stop making shit up, fool. 
    I'd be insulted, if this came from someone who was not too chicken shit to play perma death.
    Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,973
    AlBQuirky said:
    The funny thing with deathmatch PvPers are two things:

    They tend to (but some do) not like gameplay like Planetside, where everyone is 100% equal and the only thing that matters is true player skill.

    But none of them ever want optional PvP. They want to force pvp on everyone that plays that MMO, the very suggestion of someone wanting optional PvP makes them rage harder than Hulk when he is angry.

    The other funny thing is they say "then go play a pve MMO"

    name me one sandbox PvE MMO that is NOT saga of ryzom

    Go on, do it. One sandbox PvE MMO or a sandbox optional PvE MMO.

    I suppose SWG counts, since PvP is optional. But I can name dozens of sandbox MMOs where its forced PvP

    But that goes back to...almost no PvPer wants optional PvP because then they have no one to gank

    Just look at BDO. All the pvpers get so angry at any suggestion of an optional pvp server, because they know it be vastly more popular than the pvp servers and all they'd have is gankers ganking gankers
    Well stated! It is rare for me to find a PvP'er that actually desires a challenge, though I'm told they do exist :)

    I see this as akin to players who want ultra difficult games, then game the game to min/max it so it is easy. Look at "perma-death" threads and you'll find a huge list of suggestions with ways to "avoid perma-death." Legacy characters that "inherit" all the dead characters stuff, ie: NOT dead. Some mechanic where the character comes back after some amount of time, ie: NOT dead. "Clones", ala EVE Online, ie: NOT dead.

    Many PvP'ers fit in this category quite nicely, as they will not engage unless they have minimal risk, if any. Any choice to PvP or not has them in an uproar. Any "penalties" has them crying. Separate them onto their own server (ala EQ) and they're not happy, for the reasons you described.

    I see this as basically testosterone filled chest beating, trying to sound all tough on the internet. It's kind of funny :)
    Well, now you can say you've met one.  I prefer a challenge to an easy kill.

    Indeed, if I find myself far outranking an opponent in terms of skill (this isn't easy to tell right away - it's not about equipment as much as how one plays) I will usually go easy and let them live.
    AlBQuirky

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

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