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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    There are plenty of Perma-Death, Full Loot Open World PvP Survival MMO's out there, like Ark, Rend, Rust, Day Z, etc... some doing quite well.
    Gdemami
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,147
    Ungood said:
    There are plenty of Perma-Death, Full Loot Open World PvP Survival MMO's out there, like Ark, Rend, Rust, Day Z, etc... some doing quite well.
    Are there actual perms death modes in them? I didn’t know that if true. Not that it matters though the progression is vastly different than an mmorpg which is the main issue I think. 
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    There are plenty of Perma-Death, Full Loot Open World PvP Survival MMO's out there, like Ark, Rend, Rust, Day Z, etc... some doing quite well.
    Are there actual perms death modes in them? I didn’t know that if true. Not that it matters though the progression is vastly different than an mmorpg which is the main issue I think. 
    I know Day Z is perma death by default.

    Ark has a "Hard Core" mode, which is Perma Death.

    No Clue about the others.. and to be honest, if it does not have Perma Death, than it's simply not a Survival Game in my mind, it's just another pointless PvP MMO.
    Gdemami
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,147
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    There are plenty of Perma-Death, Full Loot Open World PvP Survival MMO's out there, like Ark, Rend, Rust, Day Z, etc... some doing quite well.
    Are there actual perms death modes in them? I didn’t know that if true. Not that it matters though the progression is vastly different than an mmorpg which is the main issue I think. 
    I know Day Z is perma death by default.

    Ark has a "Hard Core" mode, which is Perma Death.

    No Clue about the others.. and to be honest, if it does not have Perma Death, than it's simply not a Survival Game in my mind, it's just another pointless PvP MMO.
    Well your mind is wrought with all kinds of crazy so it’s all good. 
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,509
    edited February 19
    Ungood said:
    Let me blow a few peoples minds.

    There is no such thing as meaningful PvP in an MMO.

    All PvP in a MMO is nothing more than pointless petty digital violence to other players, the only time PvP can have meaning, is in PvP campaigns where a Side can Win, and that winning has an impact.

    That's what I want to see changed.

    Although, some PvP games have a little meaning to it. UO, for example, was your loot.
    Some say that's a simulation of the Feudal Age or Wild West, but it's not because killing the bad guys doesn't stop them, they are more like the Undead overrunning the game world. But then, the good guys are like undead too, or maybe like souls being tormented in hell. lol
    Palebane

    Once upon a time....

  • IshkalIshkal Member UncommonPosts: 295
    What your saying is just your opinion, the things you listed worked in UO until UO failed to keep up with the changing graphics and never rly tried to add content until to many had already left.

    The reason full loot works with the aspects you mentioned is because no matter how much you die or are looted, if you don't get better, y0u can turn around to your crafter or merchant and resupply yourself instantly with damn near everything u lost so really all you lost was the little bit of pve/crafting time.

     For pvp or learning the game it usually take some massive prep to get your kit ready for some hard core pvp action; pots, bandages, ore, leather, wood, food, regs, spare mounts, tricks of the trade like bolos an such, and of course gold. All of that is pve sure you may have to defend while doing it but a smart player will never loose more then two or three nodes/ mobs worth of stuff
  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member RarePosts: 3,509
    Ishkal said:
    What your saying is just your opinion, the things you listed worked in UO until UO failed to keep up with the changing graphics and never rly tried to add content until to many had already left.

    The reason full loot works with the aspects you mentioned is because no matter how much you die or are looted, if you don't get better, y0u can turn around to your crafter or merchant and resupply yourself instantly with damn near everything u lost so really all you lost was the little bit of pve/crafting time.

     For pvp or learning the game it usually take some massive prep to get your kit ready for some hard core pvp action; pots, bandages, ore, leather, wood, food, regs, spare mounts, tricks of the trade like bolos an such, and of course gold. All of that is pve sure you may have to defend while doing it but a smart player will never loose more then two or three nodes/ mobs worth of stuff
    You have a distorted view of UO, no doubt based on being a successful PKer.
    It's true that some players left for EQ's 3D world. But many more left, even before EQ, because of the rampant PKing overrunning the game.
    The numbers prove it, and the Lead Designer, Raph Koster has said it. That UO lost a huge number of players because of the rampant PKing, known because that's what people said as their reason for leaving.

    squibbly

    Once upon a time....

  • MardukkMardukk Member RarePosts: 2,212
    Risk vs Reward guys.  There has to be a middle ground between GW2 (zero risk, which I enjoy a bit when time is very tight) and Darkfall..a death can cost you 2 hours farm time, but the fun/excitement to be had, is unreachable in GW2.
    ikcin
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Let me blow a few peoples minds.

    There is no such thing as meaningful PvP in an MMO.

    All PvP in a MMO is nothing more than pointless petty digital violence to other players, the only time PvP can have meaning, is in PvP campaigns where a Side can Win, and that winning has an impact.

    That's what I want to see changed.

    Although, some PvP games have a little meaning to it. UO, for example, was your loot.
    Some say that's a simulation of the Feudal Age or Wild West, but it's not because killing the bad guys doesn't stop them, they are more like the Undead overrunning the game world. But then, the good guys are like undead too, or maybe like souls being tormented in hell. lol
    See that is the main problem with all these PvP MMO's, killing players is the same as  killing NPC's, basically, you are killing each other as nothing more than a pointless grind for the sake of grind.

    No End, No Meaning, No Reason to PvP it other than to kill each other.

    Unless there is a end goal, a way to win, the whole game becomes nothing more than a sociopath playground of killing purely to kill, which is why all these games quickly get filled with gankers and trolls.

    This is also why MOBA's, BR,. and Arena games are popular, the PvP has a purpose, there is a meaning behind the fight.. even if it is nothing more than to simply win the match, there is at the very least that end goal.. at some point you will win or lose.

    In these PvP MMO's you can never really win, and you can't really lose. so you end up killing other players simply to kill them, making PvP no different than a PvE grind.

    Even games like DAoC, with facation wars, the PvP still ended up being killing each other for the sake of killing each other, as there was no way to actually win or lose.

    Some games like GW2 for example, had WvW which had week long matches with Winners and Losers, and that gave meaning to the PvP, not only in rewards, but each team had a score and a place, and wins and looses would move you up and down the roster. This was a form of meaningful PvP, a reason to fight.

    I know Crowfall is planning to expand on this idea.. wonder what other games also give meaningful PvP?
    GdemamiSteelhelmKyleran
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    There are plenty of Perma-Death, Full Loot Open World PvP Survival MMO's out there, like Ark, Rend, Rust, Day Z, etc... some doing quite well.
    Are there actual perms death modes in them? I didn’t know that if true. Not that it matters though the progression is vastly different than an mmorpg which is the main issue I think. 
    I know Day Z is perma death by default.

    Ark has a "Hard Core" mode, which is Perma Death.

    No Clue about the others.. and to be honest, if it does not have Perma Death, than it's simply not a Survival Game in my mind, it's just another pointless PvP MMO.
    Well your mind is wrought with all kinds of crazy so it’s all good. 
    Ponder this.. if you can't really die.. how can you call it a game of survival?
    squibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Ungood said:
    See that is the main problem with all these PvP MMO's, killing players is the same as  killing NPC's, basically, you are killing each other as nothing more than a pointless grind for the sake of grind.

    No End, No Meaning, No Reason to PvP it other than to kill each other.

    Unless there is a end goal, a way to win, the whole game becomes nothing more than a sociopath playground of killing purely to kill, which is why all these games quickly get filled with gankers and trolls.

    This is also why MOBA's, BR,. and Arena games are popular, the PvP has a purpose, there is a meaning behind the fight.. even if it is nothing more than to simply win the match, there is at the very least that end goal.. at some point you will win or lose.

    In these PvP MMO's you can never really win, and you can't really lose. so you end up killing other players simply to kill them, making PvP no different than a PvE grind.

    Even games like DAoC, with facation wars, the PvP still ended up being killing each other for the sake of killing each other, as there was no way to actually win or lose.

    Some games like GW2 for example, had WvW which had week long matches with Winners and Losers, and that gave meaning to the PvP, not only in rewards, but each team had a score and a place, and wins and looses would move you up and down the roster. This was a form of meaningful PvP, a reason to fight.

    I know Crowfall is planning to expand on this idea.. wonder what other games also give meaningful PvP?
    Eh, you are completely missing the point. PvP is not about the game, it is about the players. It is what makes the MMO - MMO. If there is not competition - in fact any competition is PvP, it is a singleplayer game. For me GW2 is a singleplayer game with some arenas, a battleground, but in general - a solo RPG. And TW3 or DS are far better RPGs.
    Gdemamisquibbly
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    ikcin said:
    Ungood said:
    See that is the main problem with all these PvP MMO's, killing players is the same as  killing NPC's, basically, you are killing each other as nothing more than a pointless grind for the sake of grind.

    No End, No Meaning, No Reason to PvP it other than to kill each other.

    Unless there is a end goal, a way to win, the whole game becomes nothing more than a sociopath playground of killing purely to kill, which is why all these games quickly get filled with gankers and trolls.

    This is also why MOBA's, BR,. and Arena games are popular, the PvP has a purpose, there is a meaning behind the fight.. even if it is nothing more than to simply win the match, there is at the very least that end goal.. at some point you will win or lose.

    In these PvP MMO's you can never really win, and you can't really lose. so you end up killing other players simply to kill them, making PvP no different than a PvE grind.

    Even games like DAoC, with facation wars, the PvP still ended up being killing each other for the sake of killing each other, as there was no way to actually win or lose.

    Some games like GW2 for example, had WvW which had week long matches with Winners and Losers, and that gave meaning to the PvP, not only in rewards, but each team had a score and a place, and wins and looses would move you up and down the roster. This was a form of meaningful PvP, a reason to fight.

    I know Crowfall is planning to expand on this idea.. wonder what other games also give meaningful PvP?
    Eh, you are completely missing the point. PvP is not about the game, it is about the players. It is what makes the MMO - MMO. If there is not competition - in fact any competition is PvP, it is a singleplayer game. For me GW2 is a singleplayer game with some arenas, a battleground, but in general - a solo RPG. And TW3 or DS are far better RPGs.
    That sounds like some serious sociopath behavior, to want to kill people because there are people around you. Seek Help.
    craftseekerPhrysquibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    Ungood said:
    ikcin said:
    Ungood said:
    See that is the main problem with all these PvP MMO's, killing players is the same as  killing NPC's, basically, you are killing each other as nothing more than a pointless grind for the sake of grind.

    No End, No Meaning, No Reason to PvP it other than to kill each other.

    Unless there is a end goal, a way to win, the whole game becomes nothing more than a sociopath playground of killing purely to kill, which is why all these games quickly get filled with gankers and trolls.

    This is also why MOBA's, BR,. and Arena games are popular, the PvP has a purpose, there is a meaning behind the fight.. even if it is nothing more than to simply win the match, there is at the very least that end goal.. at some point you will win or lose.

    In these PvP MMO's you can never really win, and you can't really lose. so you end up killing other players simply to kill them, making PvP no different than a PvE grind.

    Even games like DAoC, with facation wars, the PvP still ended up being killing each other for the sake of killing each other, as there was no way to actually win or lose.

    Some games like GW2 for example, had WvW which had week long matches with Winners and Losers, and that gave meaning to the PvP, not only in rewards, but each team had a score and a place, and wins and looses would move you up and down the roster. This was a form of meaningful PvP, a reason to fight.

    I know Crowfall is planning to expand on this idea.. wonder what other games also give meaningful PvP?
    Eh, you are completely missing the point. PvP is not about the game, it is about the players. It is what makes the MMO - MMO. If there is not competition - in fact any competition is PvP, it is a singleplayer game. For me GW2 is a singleplayer game with some arenas, a battleground, but in general - a solo RPG. And TW3 or DS are far better RPGs.
    That sounds like some serious sociopath behavior, to want to kill people because there are people around you. Seek Help.
    I like chess and poker too. Did not see dead bodies after the game :) We just drink beer. 
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,147
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    There are plenty of Perma-Death, Full Loot Open World PvP Survival MMO's out there, like Ark, Rend, Rust, Day Z, etc... some doing quite well.
    Are there actual perms death modes in them? I didn’t know that if true. Not that it matters though the progression is vastly different than an mmorpg which is the main issue I think. 
    I know Day Z is perma death by default.

    Ark has a "Hard Core" mode, which is Perma Death.

    No Clue about the others.. and to be honest, if it does not have Perma Death, than it's simply not a Survival Game in my mind, it's just another pointless PvP MMO.
    Well your mind is wrought with all kinds of crazy so it’s all good. 
    Ponder this.. if you can't really die.. how can you call it a game of survival?
    If you really die, how can you call it a game? YOU seek help.
    Ungoodsquibbly
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,206
    If you really die, how can you call it a game? YOU seek help.
    He is not alone, there are few people here who believe they are killing people in the MMOs. That is kind of scary.  But this is internet - a place full with all kinds of craziness.
    squibbly
  • MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,236
    Ungood said:
    There are plenty of Perma-Death, Full Loot Open World PvP Survival MMO's out there, like Ark, Rend, Rust, Day Z, etc... some doing quite well.
    Sorry to break it for you, but they are not MMOs, they are multiplay games.
    squibbly
  • ThaneThane Member RarePosts: 3,446
    pvp is one thing, already a a niche (one i like tho)
    fool loot, next thing, a nice in a niche.
    3rd step, perma death, that's a niche in a niche in a niche :P


    why people make em? same reason there is kebab with garlic sauce, even tho i don't like it, some people do.

    there will always be niche games, be happy about it, for some years, we only had non niche mmos, and all copied WoW... booooorrriiiiiing.

    and one of the most successfull nichegames is still eve online, running for 15++ years now. so please, don't say they don't work, bc they do :)

    you don't have to like everything, understand that, and you understand why devs do what they do.
     :>
    SteelhelmUngoodAlBQuirky

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    ikcin said:
    Ungood said:
    ikcin said:
    Ungood said:
    See that is the main problem with all these PvP MMO's, killing players is the same as  killing NPC's, basically, you are killing each other as nothing more than a pointless grind for the sake of grind.

    No End, No Meaning, No Reason to PvP it other than to kill each other.

    Unless there is a end goal, a way to win, the whole game becomes nothing more than a sociopath playground of killing purely to kill, which is why all these games quickly get filled with gankers and trolls.

    This is also why MOBA's, BR,. and Arena games are popular, the PvP has a purpose, there is a meaning behind the fight.. even if it is nothing more than to simply win the match, there is at the very least that end goal.. at some point you will win or lose.

    In these PvP MMO's you can never really win, and you can't really lose. so you end up killing other players simply to kill them, making PvP no different than a PvE grind.

    Even games like DAoC, with facation wars, the PvP still ended up being killing each other for the sake of killing each other, as there was no way to actually win or lose.

    Some games like GW2 for example, had WvW which had week long matches with Winners and Losers, and that gave meaning to the PvP, not only in rewards, but each team had a score and a place, and wins and looses would move you up and down the roster. This was a form of meaningful PvP, a reason to fight.

    I know Crowfall is planning to expand on this idea.. wonder what other games also give meaningful PvP?
    Eh, you are completely missing the point. PvP is not about the game, it is about the players. It is what makes the MMO - MMO. If there is not competition - in fact any competition is PvP, it is a singleplayer game. For me GW2 is a singleplayer game with some arenas, a battleground, but in general - a solo RPG. And TW3 or DS are far better RPGs.
    That sounds like some serious sociopath behavior, to want to kill people because there are people around you. Seek Help.
    I like chess and poker too. Did not see dead bodies after the game :) We just drink beer. 
    This is my point, See in a game of Chess, there is a point to the conflict, to win the game

    In the MMO's you play, there is no point to the PvP, you are simply attacking people to attack them, in an endless cycle of pointless, purposeless violence for the sake of violence.
    craftseekersquibbly
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    There are plenty of Perma-Death, Full Loot Open World PvP Survival MMO's out there, like Ark, Rend, Rust, Day Z, etc... some doing quite well.
    Are there actual perms death modes in them? I didn’t know that if true. Not that it matters though the progression is vastly different than an mmorpg which is the main issue I think. 
    I know Day Z is perma death by default.

    Ark has a "Hard Core" mode, which is Perma Death.

    No Clue about the others.. and to be honest, if it does not have Perma Death, than it's simply not a Survival Game in my mind, it's just another pointless PvP MMO.
    Well your mind is wrought with all kinds of crazy so it’s all good. 
    Ponder this.. if you can't really die.. how can you call it a game of survival?
    If you really die, how can you call it a game? YOU seek help.
    I get that you are trying to witty, like this is some kind of jab or what have you, but really, but playing up being deliberately obtuse about the fact that we are talking about games here, just makes you look stupid.

    But keep on keeping on I guess.. 
    craftseekersquibbly
  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,707
    edited February 19
    Ungood said:
    Let me blow a few peoples minds.

    There is no such thing as meaningful PvP in an MMO.

    All PvP in a MMO is nothing more than pointless petty digital violence to other players, the only time PvP can have meaning, is in PvP campaigns where a Side can Win, and that winning has an impact.

    That's what I want to see changed.

    Although, some PvP games have a little meaning to it. UO, for example, was your loot.
    Some say that's a simulation of the Feudal Age or Wild West, but it's not because killing the bad guys doesn't stop them, they are more like the Undead overrunning the game world. But then, the good guys are like undead too, or maybe like souls being tormented in hell. lol
    See that would be fun pvp. You as a warrior must fight the undead until you die and become one. Then you fight the living until you perish, your soul being free to enter a body and pick up the fight against the undead. Each side could have different classes who become more powerful the longer they survive. The more powerful enemies are a bigger target. Probably couldnt make a full game of it, but naybe a side-game or mod.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 1,147
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    There are plenty of Perma-Death, Full Loot Open World PvP Survival MMO's out there, like Ark, Rend, Rust, Day Z, etc... some doing quite well.
    Are there actual perms death modes in them? I didn’t know that if true. Not that it matters though the progression is vastly different than an mmorpg which is the main issue I think. 
    I know Day Z is perma death by default.

    Ark has a "Hard Core" mode, which is Perma Death.

    No Clue about the others.. and to be honest, if it does not have Perma Death, than it's simply not a Survival Game in my mind, it's just another pointless PvP MMO.
    Well your mind is wrought with all kinds of crazy so it’s all good. 
    Ponder this.. if you can't really die.. how can you call it a game of survival?
    If you really die, how can you call it a game? YOU seek help.
    I get that you are trying to witty, like this is some kind of jab or what have you, but really, but playing up being deliberately obtuse about the fact that we are talking about games here, just makes you look stupid.

    But keep on keeping on I guess.. 
    No, dipshit, the real problem is when you jump into a thread it goes to shit because you don't stay on topic, you don't have discussions and instead just throw your opinions around like facts. It's obnoxious and pointless to attempt any real discussion with you so I just have fun with it instead.

    But keep on keeping on I guess...
    ScorchiensquibblyManWithNoTan
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Palebane said:
    Ungood said:
    Let me blow a few peoples minds.

    There is no such thing as meaningful PvP in an MMO.

    All PvP in a MMO is nothing more than pointless petty digital violence to other players, the only time PvP can have meaning, is in PvP campaigns where a Side can Win, and that winning has an impact.

    That's what I want to see changed.

    Although, some PvP games have a little meaning to it. UO, for example, was your loot.
    Some say that's a simulation of the Feudal Age or Wild West, but it's not because killing the bad guys doesn't stop them, they are more like the Undead overrunning the game world. But then, the good guys are like undead too, or maybe like souls being tormented in hell. lol
    See that would be fun pvp. You as a warrior must fight the undead until you die and become one. Then you fight the living until you perish, your soul being free to enter a body and pick up the fight against the undead. Each side could have different classes who become more powerful the longer they survive. The more powerful enemies are a bigger target. Probably couldnt make a full game of it, but naybe a side-game or mod.
    GW2 did something like this for their Halloween Event. Where players would start out living, and then if they got killed they would become undead wraiths hunting and killing the other living players... till the timer ran out.
    SovrathPalebane
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,979
    Ungood said:
    GW2 did something like this for their Halloween Event. Where players would start out living, and then if they got killed they would become undead wraiths hunting and killing the other living players... till the timer ran out.
    I loved this mini-game. 
    Ungood

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,306
    Ungood said:
    ikcin said:
    Ungood said:
    ikcin said:
    Ungood said:
    See that is the main problem with all these PvP MMO's, killing players is the same as  killing NPC's, basically, you are killing each other as nothing more than a pointless grind for the sake of grind.

    No End, No Meaning, No Reason to PvP it other than to kill each other.

    Unless there is a end goal, a way to win, the whole game becomes nothing more than a sociopath playground of killing purely to kill, which is why all these games quickly get filled with gankers and trolls.

    This is also why MOBA's, BR,. and Arena games are popular, the PvP has a purpose, there is a meaning behind the fight.. even if it is nothing more than to simply win the match, there is at the very least that end goal.. at some point you will win or lose.

    In these PvP MMO's you can never really win, and you can't really lose. so you end up killing other players simply to kill them, making PvP no different than a PvE grind.

    Even games like DAoC, with facation wars, the PvP still ended up being killing each other for the sake of killing each other, as there was no way to actually win or lose.

    Some games like GW2 for example, had WvW which had week long matches with Winners and Losers, and that gave meaning to the PvP, not only in rewards, but each team had a score and a place, and wins and looses would move you up and down the roster. This was a form of meaningful PvP, a reason to fight.

    I know Crowfall is planning to expand on this idea.. wonder what other games also give meaningful PvP?
    Eh, you are completely missing the point. PvP is not about the game, it is about the players. It is what makes the MMO - MMO. If there is not competition - in fact any competition is PvP, it is a singleplayer game. For me GW2 is a singleplayer game with some arenas, a battleground, but in general - a solo RPG. And TW3 or DS are far better RPGs.
    That sounds like some serious sociopath behavior, to want to kill people because there are people around you. Seek Help.
    I like chess and poker too. Did not see dead bodies after the game :) We just drink beer. 
    This is my point, See in a game of Chess, there is a point to the conflict, to win the game

    In the MMO's you play, there is no point to the PvP, you are simply attacking people to attack them, in an endless cycle of pointless, purposeless violence for the sake of violence.
    It's the exact same point "to win the game."

    The game being the combat between two opponents.

    However, an mmorpg is a bit different than a game of chess. The sole purpose of chess is to beat your opponent. You aren't getting loot, you aren't getting territory control or control of resources.

    Which is, I bet, a part of the conflict in an mmorpg. However, if the game has battlegrounds or some such things then "yes" the purpose is to "win the game."



  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,707
    edited February 19
    Sovrath said:
    Ungood said:
    This is my point, See in a game of Chess, there is a point to the conflict, to win the game

    In the MMO's you play, there is no point to the PvP, you are simply attacking people to attack them, in an endless cycle of pointless, purposeless violence for the sake of violence.
    It's the exact same point "to win the game."

    The game being the combat between two opponents.

    However, an mmorpg is a bit different than a game of chess. The sole purpose of chess is to beat your opponent. You aren't getting loot, you aren't getting territory control or control of resources.

    Which is, I bet, a part of the conflict in an mmorpg. However, if the game has battlegrounds or some such things then "yes" the purpose is to "win the game."
    Thats a cood point. Every battle can be won. The war might rage on (otherwise the game would end) but things are still won in online pvp. It might not be real-life treasure, but you win or lose pride, confidence, territory, time, etc. People lose patience all the time in these games. Too bad they can’t win some of that, lol. To say nothing is won or lost is a little disingenuous imo.

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

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