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Full loot PVP MMOs, why do indi developers keep making them?

MaurgrimMaurgrim Member RarePosts: 1,241
We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
Has it ever worked I mean really?

We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
Be a crafter
Be a villian
Be a hunter of rare animals
Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

Yadda Yadda Yadda

We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
craftseekerAzaron_NightbladeSteelhelmOctagon7711Jean-Luc_Picarddelete5230CazrielbcbullyRnjypsyMrMelGibsonand 5 others.
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Comments

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,377
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    Vermillion_RaventhalSabracSteelhelm

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,740
    I think full loot PvP games should go the EVE route. 

    Have a safe areas in the middle and as you go concentrically farther out, the PvP full loot ability becomes more realized. So people can control their risk. 

    Mortal Online if it did it that way would have more players, i'd stay in the non-full loot pvp areas for the most part but then do excursions into the full loot areas. 

    Oh well. I don't see a problem with full loot PvP, i see a problem when there is no way to control a players' risk. 
    KyleranSteelhelmOctagon7711Cayleraparrotpholksquibbly
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,350
    edited February 15
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    I think you are being a bit self centered there.

    This isn't about what you or other players who don't like these types of games. It's about people who DO like these types of games.

    How many times have you seen someone on a forum say "well, if you don't like it, make your own game."

    Of course most people can't or don't have the drive to do so. But there are people out there who want to make games that they want to play. So they do it.

    Even if they fail, I admire them for at leas trying. Not all of them are as professional as they probably should be or don't know how to run a business but they pull up the ol' shirt sleeves and they "do it."

    Maybe some day one of them will be as successful as they want to be.
    KylerancraftseekerAlBQuirkySteelhelmnatpickmcrippinsRueTheWhirl



  • HarikenHariken Member RarePosts: 2,384
    A simple answer is they are cheap. They know they will be niche. So they don't really need to put in a lot of effort. 
    MendelMargraveMaurgrimfoxgirlOctagon7711Rnjypsybarasawasquibbly
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    • Easier to make
    • Easier to monetize
    • An excuse (a bad one) to avoid in-game story telling
    craftseekerKyleranAlBQuirkyMendelMargraveRnjypsyMrMelGibsonbarasawasquibblyRueTheWhirl
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,414
    Ky is right all the survival games are full loot PvP. They seemed to have struck a balance that works with the survival set up because even if you lose stuff you're up and running again in a short while.

    The only time full loot PvP that does not work is when what you lose is too much for the average player. Nobody is going to like losing months of work although EvE seems to be the exception but do those players who lose expensive ships stick around? So for this to work you need to make sure the loss is acceptable.
    KyleranAlBQuirkyOctagon7711NorseGod
    image
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,742
    cheyane said:
    do those players who lose expensive ships stick around? So for this to work you need to make sure the loss is acceptable.
    Depends.

    First you need to realise EVE isn't progression based - you don't chase levels nor better gear/ships like in traditional MMOs.

    Ships and equipment are just tools to achieve your goals rather than goal itself and as such, loss of ships is a daily butter in EVE.

    With that said, EVE can be played like any other mmo and provides you with an ability to play for the "shiney". If that is the case, I can definitely see people quitting after they lose months of invested time.

    However, that isn't really something all that common thus not really a concern.
    KyleranCryomatrixAlBQuirkytweedledumb99SabracAgent_Joseph
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    MMORPG players generally have thinner skin and come from a genre that they control everything RPG.  At least that what I have assumed.
    KyleranCaffynatedOctagon7711squibbly
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    MMORPG players generally have thinner skin and come from a genre that they control everything RPG.  At least that what I have assumed.
    I wonder where those people where when I was playing AION. :D
    squibbly
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • OldSchoolGamerOldSchoolGamer Member UncommonPosts: 229
    So, really... the guy is wrong huh.... let me see...

    Matter of fact, I'll even do you all a favor and go F2P so WoW isn't considered...

    Below are the Top 10 MMORPGs you can play right now for free...

    GW2
    Rift
    SWTOR
    TERA
    LOTRO
    Neverwinter
    DDO
    AION Online
    DC Universe Online
    RUNESCAPE 3

    What do all these have in common?  They are ALL PvE and some have optional PvP content in them.

    Just because the vocal minority on these forums thinks every MMORPG game should be PvP, don't try to spread that B.S. that PvP is more popular than PvE because that simply is not the case.

    Source:  https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/best-free-mmorpgs/11/

    MyrdynnfoxgirlOctagon7711CazrielRnjypsyGeekyMasoodVoonphoenixfire2barasawasquibblyand 1 other.
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,788
    It's all about that hope and prayer...

    That by giving each player a knife and the ability to use it, they will suddenly become interesting individuals that will create a dynamic, self balancing, and interesting war system.
    PalebaneAlBQuirkyOctagon7711Rnjypsy

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,090
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    Okay great a "sub genre" doesn't challenge any of his main points because he is not referring to your sub genre reference.  He's referring to the classic MMO.  And you don't have to figure it out because he has already told you why it doesn't work, and hes spot on.  His question is why do developers think their version of a full loot classic MMO is somehow going to work. 
    craftseekerCaffynatedMaurgrimCazrielGeekybarasawa
  • PalebanePalebane Member RarePosts: 3,717
    edited February 16
    They have the most potential but not enough of the right kind of folks play them to balance out the dickheads and cheaters, imo.
    Wargfootcraftseekersquibbly

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,350
    So, really... the guy is wrong huh.... let me see...

    Matter of fact, I'll even do you all a favor and go F2P so WoW isn't considered...

    Below are the Top 10 MMORPGs you can play right now for free...

    GW2
    Rift
    SWTOR
    TERA
    LOTRO
    Neverwinter
    DDO
    AION Online
    DC Universe Online
    RUNESCAPE 3

    What do all these have in common?  They are ALL PvE and some have optional PvP content in them.

    Just because the vocal minority on these forums thinks every MMORPG game should be PvP, don't try to spread that B.S. that PvP is more popular than PvE because that simply is not the case.

    Source:  https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/best-free-mmorpgs/11/

    I think you missed the point.

    He is asking why people make them if they never seem to do well. If they never are successful.
    AlmostLancelot



  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Aion was PVE with optional PVP? Interesting. I must have joined the wrong server.
    deniterOctagon7711RueTheWhirl
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,520
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    In my opinion, I think this stems from Tabletop D&D, which many "RPG" players came from. Those games, with a few exceptions, were cooperative games. Whenever I heard about a PvP type D&D game, they usually (not always) fell apart with bad feelings all around.

    It's harder for me to understand why players want to kill each other in an RPG. I certainly get no kicks from that activity, but understand many do.
    Palebanebarasawasquibbly

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    Sovrath said:
    So, really... the guy is wrong huh.... let me see...

    Matter of fact, I'll even do you all a favor and go F2P so WoW isn't considered...

    Below are the Top 10 MMORPGs you can play right now for free...

    GW2
    Rift
    SWTOR
    TERA
    LOTRO
    Neverwinter
    DDO
    AION Online
    DC Universe Online
    RUNESCAPE 3

    What do all these have in common?  They are ALL PvE and some have optional PvP content in them.

    Just because the vocal minority on these forums thinks every MMORPG game should be PvP, don't try to spread that B.S. that PvP is more popular than PvE because that simply is not the case.

    Source:  https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/best-free-mmorpgs/11/

    I think you missed the point.

    He is asking why people make them if they never seem to do well. If they never are successful.
    Those games suck in general and would suck if they were not PvP.  The mindless PvP just makes them suck more.  
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,377
    goboygo said:
    Kyleran said:
    Maurgrim said:
    We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
    Has it ever worked I mean really?

    We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
    Be a crafter
    Be a villian
    Be a hunter of rare animals
    Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
    Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom

    Yadda Yadda Yadda

    We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
    It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.

    So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
    There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.

    Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.



    Okay great a "sub genre" doesn't challenge any of his main points because he is not referring to your sub genre reference.  He's referring to the classic MMO.  And you don't have to figure it out because he has already told you why it doesn't work, and hes spot on.  His question is why do developers think their version of a full loot classic MMO is somehow going to work. 
    He used the term MMO, not MMORPG, there is a difference.

    Many consider survival games MMOs, so they qualify.

    If he meant MMORPGs, there are two totally PVE centric games in progress,  a few with a mixture of both and a few which are PVP only. 

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • StryckerStrycker Member UncommonPosts: 104
    Because they do work; I'm not sure why you think they don't outside of your opinion.
    EVE, Albion, BDO, and LOA are all making profits. Darkfall survives and doesn't thrive because of 1000 other things wrong with the game, same with Mortal. Hell, the most popular genre in gaming (BR) is essentially full-loot. Sure, it's based on a 20 minute session, but in most of the aforementioned games you don't really lose more than 20 minutes of work if you die regardless.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    edited February 16
    Palebane said:
    They have the most potential but not enough of the right kind of folks play them to balance out the dickheads and cheaters, imo.
    But the "dickheads and cheaters" are the primary audience for this type of game, so they will always be there and they will always act like feral cats and destroy their own environment.
    KyleranPalebaneAzaron_NightbladeRnjypsyphoenixfire2squibbly
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,944
    I understand why they do it and the mentality of the developers.  The biggest problem is usually execution. 

    Failure to make PvP meaningful, poor gaming mechanics, features dropped, poor graphics is just a bad recipe.  

    Few things that can help some of these developers. 

    1. Stay away from pointless grinds. Not playing a PvP MMORPG to kill 20k MOBs for gold or exp.

    2. Stay away from power gaps. Why have decked out level 100 players killing noobs? Great way to foster competition.

    3. Have your map big enough to have space to build and not be run by uber guilds.  

    4. Have resource nodes for mines, farms, lumber and etc run by guild NPCs for income and basic crafting resources.  Makes the game RTS like and again not wasting time picking each resource.

    5. Lastly don't go beyond means and skills of development team.  Ugly realistic graphics, poor frames, poor animations, features not possible advertised and etc just stop.


     
    craftseeker
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,381
    I tend to think that all people with a game design in their head are a bit self-delusional (myself included).  They see themselves and maybe some of their friends and think, 'if we like it, there will be more', a Field of Dreams type approach.  Viola!  A market imagined, without regard to facts or research.  A good number of those that actually commit to attempting to build a game probably have a bit more ego than their peers, and that ego demands 'I like it, it must be a good idea'.  Occasionally, some of these people complete their idea and it works.  Others don't complete their projects, or the completed project fails in the marketplace.



    craftseekerbarasawa

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • OldSchoolGamerOldSchoolGamer Member UncommonPosts: 229
    In a full loot PVP game, like it or not, you are the content, period.  You are there for the sole purpose of making someone else's day at your expense.

    And to the person who said Darkfall survives, you are flat wrong.  Darkfall Online was on vaporware status for over 13 years before it finally launched.   It was suppose to be the WoW Killer.  A lot of people here on these very forums mocked the "trolls" that were against the game.    For a game that took 13 years to release, it lasted less than a year.  The two games you see today are licensed games of the original.  But hey, at least Tacos tried, you have to give the man that much credit.  Better to try and fail than to never try at all.

    KylerancraftseekerCaffynatedCazrielRnjypsysquibbly
  • SabracSabrac Member UncommonPosts: 137
    edited February 16
    The survival games seems to be doing fine, games like Rust and Ark have a healthy player base, not all of them are in a good state granted but mostly depends on their quality and what do they bring to the table, point being that an audience for those games exits.

    So. What could the PvP MMORPGs learn from that genre?.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,000
    Because dog eat dog give them change to step in middle to gather money , like how USA did in WW .
    Grintch
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