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I'm in MMO limbo

13

Comments

  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 248
    IMHO there is no difference between pay-to-advance and pay-to-win.
    Even if you could argue there is a difference, it doesn't change the fact that both suck.

    In a pay-to-advance game the developer is motivated to make progression tedious (create the problem) so that they can sell widgets to make it bearable (then sell the solution).  Likewise, with pay-to-win the motivation to make PvP unfair, unless you make a purchase, exists and that is terrible.


    Kyleranultimateduck
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,509
    edited February 13
    I always took "pay to win" as a game allowing for the ability to use real world money to gain an advantage over those who do not. 

    I don't think anyone cares if you want to look like a gay pirate.  They do care that you used money to buy gear that makes you more powerful that people who did not buy gear.
    Oh contraire, to many people their avatar's appearance is very important, resenting when the better looking outfits are available for immediate (or exclusive)  purchase rather than being earned in game or created by crafters. 

    So for them, cosmetics in a cash shop are P2W.
    Vermillion_Raventhalultimateduck

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,509
    Wargfoot said:
    IMHO there is no difference between pay-to-advance and pay-to-win.
    Even if you could argue there is a difference, it doesn't change the fact that both suck.

    In a pay-to-advance game the developer is motivated to make progression tedious (create the problem) so that they can sell widgets to make it bearable (then sell the solution).  Likewise, with pay-to-win the motivation to make PvP unfair, unless you make a purchase, exists and that is terrible.


    I agree and have given up the fight to try and distinguish between the two.

    As you said, both irritate some portion of the player base and can result in them quitting or avoiding the game entirely.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited February 13
    Ungood said:
    Thanks everyone for the validation that in this place, P2W simply means it has a cash shop, what it sells is vastly irrelevant.
    No you are asking for a clean answer to a question that is opinion based.  Unless you think your opinion is better than others.  

    My definition is to have ways to advance past developer stifled limitations, odds or paying directly for power or advantage.  
    I gave up caring or trying to define "P2W".. Now days I just go with the idea that any time someone says "P2W" it simply means the game has a cash shop, and they didn't want to spend money. .. well really.. if we are going to get down to the brass tacks, I really just take it as they didn't want to spend money.

    Since, as you so clearly put, they can't give a clear answer what they mean, as such I am not going to waste my time trying to figure out what they mean either, not my responsibly or problem. If they have an issue with a game, it's on them to be clear and exact what their issue is, if they want to fall back on a term they have deliberately made ambiguous, that is their problem, not mine.

    Edit: Holy Shit! I have my edit button back!

    Added:

    @V@Vermillion_Raventhal the way you define it may not be how AlBQuirky defines it, expecting me to remember your individual feelings and definitions.. LOL.. never gonna happen, not even gonna try, nor should anyone be expected to.


    Sovrath
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,509
    edited February 13
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Thanks everyone for the validation that in this place, P2W simply means it has a cash shop, what it sells is vastly irrelevant.
    No you are asking for a clean answer to a question that is opinion based.  Unless you think your opinion is better than others.  

    My definition is to have ways to advance past developer stifled limitations, odds or paying directly for power or advantage.  
    I gave up caring or trying to define "P2W".. Now days I just go with the idea that any time someone says "P2W" it simply means the game has a cash shop, and they didn't want to spend money. .. well really.. if we are going to get down to the brass tacks, I really just take it as they didn't want to spend money.

    Since, as you so clearly put, they can't give a clear answer what they mean, as such I am not going to waste my time trying to figure out what they mean either, not my responsibly or problem. If they have an issue with a game, it's on them to be clear and exact what their issue is, if they want to fall back on a term they have deliberately made ambiguous, that is their problem, not mine.
    Regardless of how much advantage is involved I'm quite happy to spend money on a game, heck I'll pay a box price,  buy DLCs, and a reasonable monthly sub (up to $25 / mo) for access to all content in game.

    Selling content piecemeal in a cashshop so I end up spending far more to have access to it all, not so much.
    WargfootVermillion_Raventhal

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Thanks everyone for the validation that in this place, P2W simply means it has a cash shop, what it sells is vastly irrelevant.
    No you are asking for a clean answer to a question that is opinion based.  Unless you think your opinion is better than others.  

    My definition is to have ways to advance past developer stifled limitations, odds or paying directly for power or advantage.  
    I gave up caring or trying to define "P2W".. Now days I just go with the idea that any time someone says "P2W" it simply means the game has a cash shop, and they didn't want to spend money. .. well really.. if we are going to get down to the brass tacks, I really just take it as they didn't want to spend money.

    Since, as you so clearly put, they can't give a clear answer what they mean, as such I am not going to waste my time trying to figure out what they mean either, not my responsibly or problem. If they have an issue with a game, it's on them to be clear and exact what their issue is, if they want to fall back on a term they have deliberately made ambiguous, that is their problem, not mine.
    Regardless of how much advantage is involved I'm quite happy to spend money on a game, heck I'll pay a box price,  buy DLCs, and a reasonable monthly sub (up to $25 / mo) for access to all content in game.

    Selling content piecemeal in a cashshop so I end up spending far more to have access to it all, not so much.
    And yet, DDO and I think LoTRO, do exactly that, and some people positively love that system, as anyone can buy the content, but they still need to earn the gear.

    So to each their own.. eh?
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 248
    Kyleran said:
    Regardless of how much advantage is involved I'm quite happy to spend money on a game, heck I'll pay a box price,  buy DLCs, and a reasonable monthly sub (up to $25 / mo) for access to all content in game.

    Selling content piecemeal in a cashshop so I end up spending far more to have access to it all, not so much.
    Right.

    For me the objection to pay-to-win isn't spending money, it is that I don't want the money to do anything other than grant access to the entire game.

    I'd be happy to give $25 per month for a decent game, all content included, and probably twice that if the IP was exceptional, the GM interaction fantastic, and the environment protected by conscientious developers.

    I think the world is ready for a premium game - with all the FTP/P2W garbage out there I think many people are looking for something more. 
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 248
    Kyleran said:

    As you said, both irritate some portion of the player base and can result in them quitting or avoiding the game entirely.


    I think it is even worse than that.

    With FTP you get players who really don't care about the game or who are exploring the title just to grief people.  Because the account is FTP/P2W they suffer no loss when the account is banned.  In this way a subscription model helps weed out the people who don't actually want to be there.

    I want to be very clear here:  I'm NOT saying that if you have a limited budget and are restricted to FTP that you are a trash player.  I am saying that a FTP/P2W title makes the policing of grief play difficult and it is an open invitation to assholes, regardless of their financial situation.
    Cryomatrix
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,266
    At least the official servers for the game you like is still going, for me there is no suitable replacement for pre-cu SWG beyond emulators, which either have screwed rule sets or perform marginally with very low populations.


  • MurmaiderMurmaider Member UncommonPosts: 110
    I'd say the closest thing to DAoC you'll get with a good population is ESO.

    However, there's the Phoenix Freeshard you can go to for DAoC. Last time I checked, it had a higher population than the official servers and quite a bit of activity.
    Kyleran
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    Wargfoot said:
    Kyleran said:
    Regardless of how much advantage is involved I'm quite happy to spend money on a game, heck I'll pay a box price,  buy DLCs, and a reasonable monthly sub (up to $25 / mo) for access to all content in game.

    Selling content piecemeal in a cashshop so I end up spending far more to have access to it all, not so much.
    Right.

    For me the objection to pay-to-win isn't spending money, it is that I don't want the money to do anything other than grant access to the entire game.

    I'd be happy to give $25 per month for a decent game, all content included, and probably twice that if the IP was exceptional, the GM interaction fantastic, and the environment protected by conscientious developers.

    I think the world is ready for a premium game - with all the FTP/P2W garbage out there I think many people are looking for something more. 
    For me it's just the competitive spirit.  I dislike outside money influencing gameplay.  Sure time to play, computers and connections can make a difference but not the game itself. I remember at one point games frowned on character and gold selling.  Then can't beat so profit from it came into play.  
    Wargfoot
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 248
    Wargfoot said:
    Kyleran said:
    Regardless of how much advantage is involved I'm quite happy to spend money on a game, heck I'll pay a box price,  buy DLCs, and a reasonable monthly sub (up to $25 / mo) for access to all content in game.

    Selling content piecemeal in a cashshop so I end up spending far more to have access to it all, not so much.
    Right.

    For me the objection to pay-to-win isn't spending money, it is that I don't want the money to do anything other than grant access to the entire game.

    I'd be happy to give $25 per month for a decent game, all content included, and probably twice that if the IP was exceptional, the GM interaction fantastic, and the environment protected by conscientious developers.

    I think the world is ready for a premium game - with all the FTP/P2W garbage out there I think many people are looking for something more. 
    For me it's just the competitive spirit.  I dislike outside money influencing gameplay.  Sure time to play, computers and connections can make a difference but not the game itself. I remember at one point games frowned on character and gold selling.  Then can't beat so profit from it came into play.  
    This is where Pay To Advance becomes Pay To Win for me.

    If you can level your crafter 10x faster than me because of your credit card then you'll have better gear faster, cheaper, and more readily available.  In a MMORPG advancement is everything and so in that context Pay To Advance becomes Pay To Win.

    This would also be true if the FOTM build changes.
    Those who Pay To Advance would get the FOTM build faster, and therefore, would do better in PvP, again, resulting in Pay To Win.
    Kyleran
  • grndzrogrndzro Member UncommonPosts: 1,153
    P2W is only bad if it's unreasonable. Take a look at Path of Exile. 50$ sets you up pretty well for playing league, and it's about all you will ever need to spend.
    KyleranUngoodCryomatrixultimateduck
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    grndzro said:
    P2W is only bad if it's unreasonable. Take a look at Path of Exile. 50$ sets you up pretty well for playing league, and it's about all you will ever need to spend.
    If the game is free, there is a spending ceiling that is reasonable and the game play isnt drastically altered to push you to the cash shop I am fine.  I still prefer to have everything just paid upfront.  
    ultimateduck
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    grndzro said:
    P2W is only bad if it's unreasonable. Take a look at Path of Exile. 50$ sets you up pretty well for playing league, and it's about all you will ever need to spend.
    PoE couldn't be further from P2W. So i question your example for one. Stash tabs are amazing to have, but isn't at all necessary. And you don't even need 50 bucks to be set. Just need a currency tab and 1-2 premium stash tabs and thats it. Anything beyond that is just either you being a hoarder or playing the t-mog game(though some of the other tabs are nice too like divination and map and essences).

    I'd have used GW2 as an example in place of the one you used personally. It's not unreasonable P2W but some of the shit you can buy in that game have far reaching effects. Like, not just inventory space, i'm talkin the gathering tools with infinite durability and special effects on top of that(gathering faster, or gathering extra items), the copper salvage kit, there are some absolute must haves in that game from the cash shop.

    It's mitigated by the ability to purchase cash shop currency with in game gold however.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Sephiroso said:
    grndzro said:
    P2W is only bad if it's unreasonable. Take a look at Path of Exile. 50$ sets you up pretty well for playing league, and it's about all you will ever need to spend.
    PoE couldn't be further from P2W. So i question your example for one. Stash tabs are amazing to have, but isn't at all necessary. And you don't even need 50 bucks to be set. Just need a currency tab and 1-2 premium stash tabs and thats it. Anything beyond that is just either you being a hoarder or playing the t-mog game(though some of the other tabs are nice too like divination and map and essences).

    I'd have used GW2 as an example in place of the one you used personally. It's not unreasonable P2W but some of the shit you can buy in that game have far reaching effects. Like, not just inventory space, i'm talkin the gathering tools with infinite durability and special effects on top of that(gathering faster, or gathering extra items), the copper salvage kit, there are some absolute must haves in that game from the cash shop.

    It's mitigated by the ability to purchase cash shop currency with in game gold however.
    The Salvage-o-Matic, takes something like 10K salvages to break even against using a Normal Kit.

    As for the endless tools.. I know they upgraded them with some kind of ability to control what you could get, in any case, that is not much, takes you several thousand usages to recap your initial costs.
  • DeadSpockDeadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 364
    Same here haven't found a mmorpg to call home been messing around with FF11 and FF14 but mostly playing PS4 games now days. Been playing Destiny 2 a lot and will play Anthem in few days. Been playing mmorpg since 2003 and can't find any to hold my interest they all feel stale and shallow. I keep old memories to heart that's all it's left.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,658
    edited February 14
    DeadSpock said:
    Same here haven't found a mmorpg to call home been messing around with FF11 and FF14 but mostly playing PS4 games now days. Been playing Destiny 2 a lot and will play Anthem in few days. Been playing mmorpg since 2003 and can't find any to hold my interest they all feel stale and shallow. I keep old memories to heart that's all it's left.

    I am done with MMOs for the time being. Played them all - will give each one a try - but to actually play a MMO for a prolonged period of time - it's just not happening anymore.

    Just done with the same old, same old - I just can't bring myself to run another MMO quest ever again, talk to another dumb NPC about some dumb filler quest that has no relevance to anything and whose sole purpose is to waste your time because "hey 10,000 meaningless quests in the game - that's content!" - ugh...

    I've transitioned to single player games, MMOs are dead to me.

    Maybe some day there will be a new type of MMO that really changes everything - until that happens and we just keep getting the same crap in a different package - yeah nope.
    KyleranCryomatrixVermillion_Raventhal
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    DMKano said:
    DeadSpock said:
    Same here haven't found a mmorpg to call home been messing around with FF11 and FF14 but mostly playing PS4 games now days. Been playing Destiny 2 a lot and will play Anthem in few days. Been playing mmorpg since 2003 and can't find any to hold my interest they all feel stale and shallow. I keep old memories to heart that's all it's left.

    I am done with MMOs for the time being. Played them all - will give each one a try - but to actually play a MMO for a prolonged period of time - it's just not happening anymore.

    Just done with the same old, same old - I just can't bring myself to run another MMO quest ever again, talk to another dumb NPC about some dumb filler quest that has no relevance to anything and whose sole purpose is to waste your time because "hey 10,000 meaningless quests in the game - that's content!" - ugh...

    I've transitioned to single player games, MMOs are dead to me.

    Maybe some day there will be a new type of MMO that really changes everything - until that happens and we just keep getting the same crap in a different package - yeah nope.
    This is kinda what drove me into PvP games to be honest. Got bored with the whole idea of grind, figured if I was going to end up doing the same maps over and over and over again.. they may as well be a unique challenge each time.

    Sadly, a lot of PvP in MMO's is so horribly done in contrast to some of the other PvP focused games I have played that I can't even bring myself to get into that mode with the current game market.

    However, I do have my eye on Crowfall and Camelot Unchained to see if they can spark me back into the idea of an PvP MMO.

    We shall see.. for right now.. I am enjoying some games, but my circle got a lot smaller as of late.
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,772
    DMKano said:
    DeadSpock said:
    Same here haven't found a mmorpg to call home been messing around with FF11 and FF14 but mostly playing PS4 games now days. Been playing Destiny 2 a lot and will play Anthem in few days. Been playing mmorpg since 2003 and can't find any to hold my interest they all feel stale and shallow. I keep old memories to heart that's all it's left.

    I am done with MMOs for the time being. Played them all - will give each one a try - but to actually play a MMO for a prolonged period of time - it's just not happening anymore.

    Just done with the same old, same old - I just can't bring myself to run another MMO quest ever again, talk to another dumb NPC about some dumb filler quest that has no relevance to anything and whose sole purpose is to waste your time because "hey 10,000 meaningless quests in the game - that's content!" - ugh...

    I've transitioned to single player games, MMOs are dead to me.

    Maybe some day there will be a new type of MMO that really changes everything - until that happens and we just keep getting the same crap in a different package - yeah nope.
    I somewhat agree, but prefer survival games. *ignores Kyleran rolling his eyes*
    Kyleran
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • IshkalIshkal Member UncommonPosts: 295
    I feel ya man I would love an updated UO pre age of shadows of course lol
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 248
    Ishkal said:
    I feel ya man I would love an updated UO pre age of shadows of course lol
    Have you looked at Legends of Aria?
    They're giving it an awfully good shot, I think.
    ultimateduckKyleran
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    DMKano said:
    DeadSpock said:
    Same here haven't found a mmorpg to call home been messing around with FF11 and FF14 but mostly playing PS4 games now days. Been playing Destiny 2 a lot and will play Anthem in few days. Been playing mmorpg since 2003 and can't find any to hold my interest they all feel stale and shallow. I keep old memories to heart that's all it's left.

    I am done with MMOs for the time being. Played them all - will give each one a try - but to actually play a MMO for a prolonged period of time - it's just not happening anymore.

    Just done with the same old, same old - I just can't bring myself to run another MMO quest ever again, talk to another dumb NPC about some dumb filler quest that has no relevance to anything and whose sole purpose is to waste your time because "hey 10,000 meaningless quests in the game - that's content!" - ugh...

    I've transitioned to single player games, MMOs are dead to me.

    Maybe some day there will be a new type of MMO that really changes everything - until that happens and we just keep getting the same crap in a different package - yeah nope.
    This is one reason I hope we start moving towards procedural questing.  One time quest even if generic are fine if you are solving the problem.  Kill the rats in the attic and they are dead and done.  It should be optional.  Not kill 10 rats and there are always rats.

    I am tired of empty leveling that just changes number while you have the same difficulty 1-100.  I also don't want leveling so trivial that it's there just to say you have content but the end game be raiding.  
    Sovrath
  • DeddmeatDeddmeat Member UncommonPosts: 385
    Anarchy Online .. not dead yet, has the froob version (Rubi-Ka) or subbed (everything else), still has players, still has people subbing (tho yearly works out best, monthly if you were drunk at the time), way dated graphics, will still tax your machine lol  BUT Skill based system, not just buy a skill like newer games.  Hell you can look free and if you don't like it .. no loss
    ultimateduck

    image

  • DeddmeatDeddmeat Member UncommonPosts: 385
    Based on the description you mentioned,
    It looks like you want to play something like Elder Scrolls Online.
     
    There's more than 1 faction (Daggerfall Covenant, Ebonheart Pact and Aldmeri Dominion) and they even have a legit war in cyrodiil where you take over Castles, towns, outposts with sieges, running into war with your mount while being accompanied by your army (group of 24 people).

    The races have a big influence on your build and class, so that means there's a lot of variety of builds you could go for. 

    The lore is amazing, if you ever get bored of one story, just go to the next town over and do the quests there. 

    The community is a little trolly, BUT what game isn't? the game lets you use a mic and keyboard if you want to communicate with someone. Which is great because most games would either only have one or the other.

    The only thing I can really think off that makes this game unplayable is the lack of action they have with the controls when it comes to fighting. In my honest opinion, I like action MMORPG's fighting style like TERA or BLACK DESERT or even FFXIV. But those three games don't have the same kind of MMO feel that ELDER SCROLLS ONLINE gives, which is a sense of freedom to do anything and everything you want at any given time. Sure there aren't any flying mounts... or combat pets (not talking about pet builds). But the game is still home to a lot of gamers.

    Note take over of castles is temporary

    Races do not have a big influence, some have useful bonus but basically the game is made so you can be any race, any class, any weapon .. at least it was.  General saying about races in ESO is just play whatever you like the look of, ignore racials as is miniscule eventually.

    True, it does have great lore

    Community on all 3 platforms can be great at times and then swing to that moron in the town square doing gymnastics with music blaring out to deafen everyone who has area chat on.

    ESO is a decent game, somewhat spoiled by the fact that if you want decent storage space (for a hoarder) you HAVE to sub so you can have the Crafting Bag as for obvious reasons they won't put it on the store, we'd buy it and unsub as thats the ONLY reason had a sub.

    Housing, they charge ALOT in the store, may as well send them your credit card details and be done with it the way they price things.

    DLC vs Expansions and Sub.  Now if you sub it originally said you got all DLC free, then they did first expansion and said 'nope, its NOT DLC, its an expansion so not free with sub .. cough up more' .. year later it's given away with next expansion and is also on the Crown Store as .. DLC lol.

    If you DO get this game and enjoy it, when next expansion rolls around wait a year for it to hit crown store and get it then after buying crowns in a sale.

    Not a bad game but was best during it's beta days :-( 
    ultimateduck

    image

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