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1999, the Promise of Virtual Worlds Revisited

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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember LegendaryPosts: 7,781
    Wow .. people are still nostalgic about this virtual world crap?

    This is 2019 .. isn't it? The two big trends (or upcoming releases) are either battle royal games, or loot shooters. Even games like Diablo 3 seems to be old fashion now (witness POE adding all the new ideas to prop up the ARPG genre).

    This is now a world that Fortnite, warframe, PoE are doing better than 99% of the MMOs out there, may be except the good old dependable WoW (and even Wow cannot hold a candle to the engagement in Fortnite). 
     
    You have no idea how "taste" works.  We know this.

    No need to rehash it for the 1000th time.
    ScotCryomatrixPhaserlightVermillion_RaventhalScorchienjimmywolf

    image
  • ScotScot UKMember EpicPosts: 10,139
    edited February 11
    Wow .. people are still nostalgic about this virtual world crap?

    This is 2019 .. isn't it? The two big trends (or upcoming releases) are either battle royal games, or loot shooters. Even games like Diablo 3 seems to be old fashion now (witness POE adding all the new ideas to prop up the ARPG genre).

    This is now a world that Fortnite, warframe, PoE are doing better than 99% of the MMOs out there, may be except the good old dependable WoW (and even Wow cannot hold a candle to the engagement in Fortnite). 
     
    You have no idea how "taste" works.  We know this.

    No need to rehash it for the 1000th time.
    Nari might as well have a leader that says "It is new and played by a lot of people so it must be good".

    In some ways virtual worlds have been replaced by virtual world tools, which is what social media is, a sort of digital interface with reality. One day though we will get our virtual worlds, just hang on for 30 years or so. :)
    Post edited by Scot on
    KyleranVermillion_Raventhal

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 342
    edited February 13
    Kyleran said:
    I was searching the internet and came across this IGN review of Everquest shortly after launch.  

    I actually missed it, paying little attention to online games until 2001 or so. Heck, I got most of my gaming news from paper magazines like CGW or PCGamer so probably was a delay of a year or so just to hear about it.  ;)

    It's a fun read, and I recalled feeling the authors wide eyed wonder at being in this great 3D virtual world when I first played Dark Age of Camelot.

    I also enjoyed this comment, especially as we still struggle with it today despite all of the technical advances.

    "Since the first week things have gotten much better and even with all of the problems its still more playable than Ultima Online. This week, as in the beta, the game has rarely suffered from major lag issues now, even on a 28.8k modem"

    It seems the promise and wonder is largely gone now, people just play games and no longer desire to inhabit virtual worlds.   

    Pity.

    https://m.ign.com/articles/1999/03/27/everquest-3
    I got this sometime in March and subbed March 22 1999. One of the things remember most is when entering Qeynos it was like watching a slideshow. It was running on a prebuilt computer I got at CompUSA in 1998. It was using a Voodoo 2 gfx card. When I think back to that time, I would NOT be happy playing a game with a similar framerate. BUT it was completely new and exhilarating. I ofcourse had long played Quake 2 multiplayer and many 3d games, so I wasn't unfamiliar with the idea of a game world or online world. What I was unfamiliar with was MASSIVE multiplayer. Compared to other games I'd played, it was immersive. I got so absorbed in it. I started on the PvP server Rallos Zek. It was chaos! Back then there were not many safeguards or time tested Play Nice rules. I think that's why. Ever since then, it's very hard for me to immerse in any game unless it's dangerous or easy to die. I can't pin down exactly when it started, but I can't play a game if it's too easy or casual. It has to have something to lose. Something to sweat over.

    One of the things I remember fondly is when the servers went down lots of us would go into the login server chat lobby. There were thousands of players on there. It was a fun place to discuss the game and complain about the servers being down.

    I don't think anything has really changed since then, and I don't care for much of the quality of life changes. Everquest was based on MUDs, but with a graphical 3d client. Every MMORPG is based on the same fundamentals, stemming as far back as approx 1980. MMORPG's serve a much larger population now, though. I think that's the main difference, and the reason for most of the changes since then. It's much easier to play them whilst AFKing more frequently, especially versus the everquest-era timeframe, and that's something I think is ok.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    PhaserlightPalebaneKyleran
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 342
    edited February 13
    Xodic said:
    In 99' I seen the future of MMORPGs being more complex with ambiguous mechanics. Instead I got what could be best described as Clicking with Friends online.
    What I imagined was more complex (intelligent; detailed; varied) NPC behavior, player houses (like ultima online--NO instances), ships and more. I imagined a hybrid of Ultima Online and Everquest with upgrades. That was very near what Ultima Online 2 wanted to do before it died.

    In original Everquest, one of the things I loved were the wandering NPCs. One NPC wandered between the Erudin library and Qeynos hills. Another wandered from Highhold Pass to North Qeynos (I think). Many dozens of NPCs traveled from zone to zone. Many NPCs would travel inside a single zone and talk to many other NPCs, and in turn giving players ideas for keywords to start quests. This kind of NPC behaviour was very cool and I imagined it would be the future, but with more intelligent, detailed behavior.. But that's not what I saw. Instead NPCs downgraded and became like vending machines. Yes, many MMORPGs have wandering NPCs, but that's about all they do--remember, it's ALL about quality of life now, not fantasy or immersion.

    Many MMORPGs have houses and ships and some intelligent NPC decisions, but in almost all cases it's severely downgraded, trapped inside instances, and safeguarded so no player ever has to suffer negative consequences. In other words: it's all fake.

    Until compahnies and players stop looking at these things as games and demand WORLDS instead, we will just get more of the same crap.

    EDIT: I just remember Raph Koster's article he wrote about this years ago,  below.

    Here’s where I editorialize a little bit. We’ve tended to, over time, focus so much on the quest and kill aspect of these games that we’ve reduced down other elements in favor of this. We no longer have NPCs with schedules because it interferes with getting a quest promptly and killing things faster. We no longer have NPCs that give directions because a radar map is more convenient. We no longer have NPCs that crack a joke when you say something because we’ve removed NPCs hearing you altogether. We no longer have NPCs that take initiative because all interactions must be through menus. We no longer have NPCs that fool people into thinking they are maybe real because it’s confusing.
    IT's sad MUDs 20 years old or more did MORE than modern MMORPGs. This is something I knew years ago because I used to play them. I'd log out of a MUD and play a modern MMORPG and feel like I was playing something downgraded.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
    craftseekerKyleranAlBQuirkyVermillion_RaventhalMendelPhaserlight
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 31,784
    Xodic said:
    In 99' I seen the future of MMORPGs being more complex with ambiguous mechanics. Instead I got what could be best described as Clicking with Friends online.
    What I imagined was more complex (intelligent; detailed; varied) NPC behavior, player houses (like ultima online--NO instances), ships and more. I imagined a hybrid of Ultima Online and Everquest with upgrades. That was very near what Ultima Online 2 wanted to do before it died.

    In original Everquest, one of the things I loved were the wandering NPCs. One NPC wandered between the Erudin library and Qeynos hills. Another wandered from Highhold Pass to North Qeynos (I think). Many dozens of NPCs traveled from zone to zone. Many NPCs would travel inside a single zone and talk to many other NPCs, and in turn giving players ideas for keywords to start quests. This kind of NPC behaviour was very cool and I imagined it would be the future, but with more intelligent, detailed behavior.. But that's not what I saw. Instead NPCs downgraded and became like vending machines. Yes, many MMORPGs have wandering NPCs, but that's about all they do--remember, it's ALL about quality of life now, not fantasy or immersion.

    Many MMORPGs have houses and ships and some intelligent NPC decisions, but in almost all cases it's severely downgraded, trapped inside instances, and safeguarded so no player ever has to suffer negative consequences. In other words: it's all fake.

    Until compahnies and players stop looking at these things as games and demand WORLDS instead, we will just get more of the same crap.

    EDIT: I just remember Raph Koster's article he wrote about this years ago,  below.

    Here’s where I editorialize a little bit. We’ve tended to, over time, focus so much on the quest and kill aspect of these games that we’ve reduced down other elements in favor of this. We no longer have NPCs with schedules because it interferes with getting a quest promptly and killing things faster. We no longer have NPCs that give directions because a radar map is more convenient. We no longer have NPCs that crack a joke when you say something because we’ve removed NPCs hearing you altogether. We no longer have NPCs that take initiative because all interactions must be through menus. We no longer have NPCs that fool people into thinking they are maybe real because it’s confusing.
    IT's sad MUDs 20 years old or more did MORE than modern MMORPGs. This is something I knew years ago because I used to play them. I'd log out of a MUD and play a modern MMORPG and feel like I was playing something downgraded.
    Like you I thought MMORPGs were going to evolve into ever more complex and interesting virtual worlds.

    Instead they went in an opposite direction because the large majority of players just want to play a good "game" for a short period of time.

    I can't even fathom how gamers can find BRs entertaining, yet clearly tens of millions do and are willing to spend billions on in game costumes which are cosmetic in purpose, mind boggling to think of really.

    Is OK, I don't understand people watching game streamers.....or eating sushi, but they do.  
    ScorchienAlBQuirkyPalebane

    "I should run a marathon backwards. So I could see what second place look like" Royce da 5'9"

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 ATM.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Anderson, InMember RarePosts: 3,390
    " TRAIN " GET OUT of the WAY or HELP YOURSELFS
    AlBQuirky
    " Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Those Who  Would Threaten It "
                                            MAGA
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAMember RarePosts: 4,669
    Elsabolts said:
    " TRAIN " GET OUT of the WAY or HELP YOURSELFS
    Heard at the finer zone boundaries in many old MMORPGS :)
    Kyleran

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDMember EpicPosts: 3,279
    Xodic said:
    In 99' I seen the future of MMORPGs being more complex with ambiguous mechanics. Instead I got what could be best described as Clicking with Friends online.
    What I imagined was more complex (intelligent; detailed; varied) NPC behavior, player houses (like ultima online--NO instances), ships and more. I imagined a hybrid of Ultima Online and Everquest with upgrades. That was very near what Ultima Online 2 wanted to do before it died.

    In original Everquest, one of the things I loved were the wandering NPCs. One NPC wandered between the Erudin library and Qeynos hills. Another wandered from Highhold Pass to North Qeynos (I think). Many dozens of NPCs traveled from zone to zone. Many NPCs would travel inside a single zone and talk to many other NPCs, and in turn giving players ideas for keywords to start quests. This kind of NPC behaviour was very cool and I imagined it would be the future, but with more intelligent, detailed behavior.. But that's not what I saw. Instead NPCs downgraded and became like vending machines. Yes, many MMORPGs have wandering NPCs, but that's about all they do--remember, it's ALL about quality of life now, not fantasy or immersion.

    Many MMORPGs have houses and ships and some intelligent NPC decisions, but in almost all cases it's severely downgraded, trapped inside instances, and safeguarded so no player ever has to suffer negative consequences. In other words: it's all fake.

    Until compahnies and players stop looking at these things as games and demand WORLDS instead, we will just get more of the same crap.

    EDIT: I just remember Raph Koster's article he wrote about this years ago,  below.

    Here’s where I editorialize a little bit. We’ve tended to, over time, focus so much on the quest and kill aspect of these games that we’ve reduced down other elements in favor of this. We no longer have NPCs with schedules because it interferes with getting a quest promptly and killing things faster. We no longer have NPCs that give directions because a radar map is more convenient. We no longer have NPCs that crack a joke when you say something because we’ve removed NPCs hearing you altogether. We no longer have NPCs that take initiative because all interactions must be through menus. We no longer have NPCs that fool people into thinking they are maybe real because it’s confusing.
    IT's sad MUDs 20 years old or more did MORE than modern MMORPGs. This is something I knew years ago because I used to play them. I'd log out of a MUD and play a modern MMORPG and feel like I was playing something downgraded.
    Yeah some of it is because of WoW changing the culture.  Not to say WoW was bad but introduced copy cating in the genre moving forward.  It radically changing the player base and the mindset of future developers who grew up playing those games.  Of course the money people's idea of success changed and creative boundaries being pushed was replaced by the working formula.

    I always expected UO to be what the future of the genre was going to be.  
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Cambridge, MAMember RarePosts: 2,173
    Kyleran said:
    Xodic said:
    In 99' I seen the future of MMORPGs being more complex with ambiguous mechanics. Instead I got what could be best described as Clicking with Friends online.
    What I imagined was more complex (intelligent; detailed; varied) NPC behavior, player houses (like ultima online--NO instances), ships and more. I imagined a hybrid of Ultima Online and Everquest with upgrades. That was very near what Ultima Online 2 wanted to do before it died.

    In original Everquest, one of the things I loved were the wandering NPCs. One NPC wandered between the Erudin library and Qeynos hills. Another wandered from Highhold Pass to North Qeynos (I think). Many dozens of NPCs traveled from zone to zone. Many NPCs would travel inside a single zone and talk to many other NPCs, and in turn giving players ideas for keywords to start quests. This kind of NPC behaviour was very cool and I imagined it would be the future, but with more intelligent, detailed behavior.. But that's not what I saw. Instead NPCs downgraded and became like vending machines. Yes, many MMORPGs have wandering NPCs, but that's about all they do--remember, it's ALL about quality of life now, not fantasy or immersion.

    Many MMORPGs have houses and ships and some intelligent NPC decisions, but in almost all cases it's severely downgraded, trapped inside instances, and safeguarded so no player ever has to suffer negative consequences. In other words: it's all fake.

    Until compahnies and players stop looking at these things as games and demand WORLDS instead, we will just get more of the same crap.

    EDIT: I just remember Raph Koster's article he wrote about this years ago,  below.

    Here’s where I editorialize a little bit. We’ve tended to, over time, focus so much on the quest and kill aspect of these games that we’ve reduced down other elements in favor of this. We no longer have NPCs with schedules because it interferes with getting a quest promptly and killing things faster. We no longer have NPCs that give directions because a radar map is more convenient. We no longer have NPCs that crack a joke when you say something because we’ve removed NPCs hearing you altogether. We no longer have NPCs that take initiative because all interactions must be through menus. We no longer have NPCs that fool people into thinking they are maybe real because it’s confusing.
    IT's sad MUDs 20 years old or more did MORE than modern MMORPGs. This is something I knew years ago because I used to play them. I'd log out of a MUD and play a modern MMORPG and feel like I was playing something downgraded.
    Like you I thought MMORPGs were going to evolve into ever more complex and interesting virtual worlds.

    Instead they went in an opposite direction because the large majority of players just want to play a good "game" for a short period of time.

    I can't even fathom how gamers can find BRs entertaining, yet clearly tens of millions do and are willing to spend billions on in game costumes which are cosmetic in purpose, mind boggling to think of really.

    Is OK, I don't understand people watching game streamers.....or eating sushi, but they do.  
    Just like many people cannot understand how you can have 6 accounts on EVE all enhancing your mass mining operation. . . . Just messing with you. 

    Sushi is fantastic, i suggest the Philadelphia roll for starters. Cream cheese and raw salmon and rice.

    Game streamers is interesting, some people watch the top players to get better, other people like the personalities (me), other people like to see gameplay (me), some people like to see the top competition like a sport.
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 31,784
    edited February 14
    Kyleran said:
    Xodic said:
    In 99' I seen the future of MMORPGs being more complex with ambiguous mechanics. Instead I got what could be best described as Clicking with Friends online.
    What I imagined was more complex (intelligent; detailed; varied) NPC behavior, player houses (like ultima online--NO instances), ships and more. I imagined a hybrid of Ultima Online and Everquest with upgrades. That was very near what Ultima Online 2 wanted to do before it died.

    In original Everquest, one of the things I loved were the wandering NPCs. One NPC wandered between the Erudin library and Qeynos hills. Another wandered from Highhold Pass to North Qeynos (I think). Many dozens of NPCs traveled from zone to zone. Many NPCs would travel inside a single zone and talk to many other NPCs, and in turn giving players ideas for keywords to start quests. This kind of NPC behaviour was very cool and I imagined it would be the future, but with more intelligent, detailed behavior.. But that's not what I saw. Instead NPCs downgraded and became like vending machines. Yes, many MMORPGs have wandering NPCs, but that's about all they do--remember, it's ALL about quality of life now, not fantasy or immersion.

    Many MMORPGs have houses and ships and some intelligent NPC decisions, but in almost all cases it's severely downgraded, trapped inside instances, and safeguarded so no player ever has to suffer negative consequences. In other words: it's all fake.

    Until compahnies and players stop looking at these things as games and demand WORLDS instead, we will just get more of the same crap.

    EDIT: I just remember Raph Koster's article he wrote about this years ago,  below.

    Here’s where I editorialize a little bit. We’ve tended to, over time, focus so much on the quest and kill aspect of these games that we’ve reduced down other elements in favor of this. We no longer have NPCs with schedules because it interferes with getting a quest promptly and killing things faster. We no longer have NPCs that give directions because a radar map is more convenient. We no longer have NPCs that crack a joke when you say something because we’ve removed NPCs hearing you altogether. We no longer have NPCs that take initiative because all interactions must be through menus. We no longer have NPCs that fool people into thinking they are maybe real because it’s confusing.
    IT's sad MUDs 20 years old or more did MORE than modern MMORPGs. This is something I knew years ago because I used to play them. I'd log out of a MUD and play a modern MMORPG and feel like I was playing something downgraded.
    Like you I thought MMORPGs were going to evolve into ever more complex and interesting virtual worlds.

    Instead they went in an opposite direction because the large majority of players just want to play a good "game" for a short period of time.

    I can't even fathom how gamers can find BRs entertaining, yet clearly tens of millions do and are willing to spend billions on in game costumes which are cosmetic in purpose, mind boggling to think of really.

    Is OK, I don't understand people watching game streamers.....or eating sushi, but they do.  
    Just like many people cannot understand how you can have 6 accounts on EVE all enhancing your mass mining operation. . . . Just messing with you. 

    Sushi is fantastic, i suggest the Philadelphia roll for starters. Cream cheese and raw salmon and rice.

    Game streamers is interesting, some people watch the top players to get better, other people like the personalities (me), other people like to see gameplay (me), some people like to see the top competition like a sport.
    Some people (me) just like to play games.

    Is OK, never understood watching others do things, I don't watch sports, people building tiny houses, cook food or play  poker either. 


    Post edited by Kyleran on

    "I should run a marathon backwards. So I could see what second place look like" Royce da 5'9"

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 ATM.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAMember RarePosts: 1,907
    edited February 14

    Sushi is fantastic, i suggest the Philadelphia roll for starters. Cream cheese and raw salmon and rice.


    Sushi really can be fantastic - if you want to avoid raw things, california rolls have cooked crab.  Tamago anything is basically a slice of omelette.  Some places make sushi with the type of pre-cooked tuna from a can (as well as the more traditional raw stuff).  Some places make vegetarian sushi with pickle, avocado, or tofu.  If you find sushi too dry due to all that white rice, try it with soy sauce or a piece of kimchi.  If you like spicy things, mildly spicy sushi rolls and highly spicy wasabi are both common to find.  :)

    As far as streamers, I like to watch a group such as Yogscast do stuff like blow each other up with rockets in GTA V maps.  If you have never seen a windmill race, they are a riot.  Also watching people play gary's mod prop hunt can be hilarious.
    Post edited by sunandshadow on
    Kyleran
    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • GameolioDanGameolioDan SydneyMember UncommonPosts: 47
    I remember hopping into Neocron in the beta days. It was the first MMO game I'd ever encountered and I was amazed. Being able to play with more than the handful of players you would encounter in a game like Doom or Quake was mind-bending. What was this alien technology that could make this happen?! Coupled with the music, sound and setting itself, it really did a fine job at transporting me elsewhere. 

    Hoping to get a similar feeling when Cyberpunk 2077 eventually comes along.
    Kyleran
    G'day! Aussie guy that records videos of his gameplay. I stream gameplay too.

    Youtube: http://youtube.com/c/gameoliodan
    Twitch: http://twitch.tv/gameoliodan
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 31,784

    Sushi is fantastic, i suggest the Philadelphia roll for starters. Cream cheese and raw salmon and rice.


    Sushi really can be fantastic - if you want to avoid raw things, california rolls have cooked crab.  Tamago anything is basically a slice of omelette.  Some places make sushi with the type of pre-cooked tuna from a can (as well as the more traditional raw stuff).  Some places make vegetarian sushi with pickle, avocado, or tofu.  If you find sushi too dry due to all that white rice, try it with soy sauce or a piece of kimchi.  If you like spicy things, mildly spicy sushi rolls and highly spicy wasabi are both common to find.  :)

    As far as streamers, I like to watch a group such as Yogscast do stuff like blow each other up with rockets in GTA V maps.  If you have never seen a windmill race, they are a riot.  Also watching people play gary's mod prop hunt can be hilarious.
    I think sushi "rolls" are the training wheels version perhaps, my children order these small, expensive bowls of cut up raw fish strips, gaaah....lets not even get into the cups of colored raw fish eggs.....

    I blame their mother who taught them as children to slurp raw oysters.....bleh....

    :#

    "I should run a marathon backwards. So I could see what second place look like" Royce da 5'9"

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 ATM.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






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