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Is Balance All That?

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  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    One pretty simple concept I’ve always had in mind was a mechanic for RvR games where each Realm gets a buff of some kind.  That buff is divided by the number of players on each side.  It would have to use average population over a certain time to avoid exploitation.  This would actually incentivize people to play on lower pop realms.  Maybe 20 guys from a small realm could hold off 30 from an over populated realm. The goal would not be balance, but fun.  
    Some people like being from a smaller realm and they enjoy the challenge of an unbalanced fight. No insult to you, but I just really feel this is where the wheels come off when developing a game.

    I'd like to see a developer create a racial variety called the 'scrapper'.
    I bet you'd get clans built around the race - people who enjoy the hard knocks thing.

    It would be interesting to explore the realm of imbalance - or at the very least, balanced that doesn't necessarily mean even 1:1 or group:group.
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:
    I have explained several times over, that is not what balance is, and I have even used examples in real games that I play, to show this is purely not the case.

    Yet, your side, those that think Imbalance is some great thing, stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to this reality, and rather cling to their foolish notions.


    I'll restate your definition of balance to make sure I'm getting it correct.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd advocate balance either being solid 1 vs 1, solid group vs. group, or rock/paper scissors where the outcome isn't determined by the class but by the skill of the player.

    If that is the case I totally respect that balancing mechanism and I ignore every game that features it.

    If I read a website for a new game and the game features realm vs. realm I check out the classes on each side.  If each side has a tank, wizard, and cleric and they're all just reskinned versions of the same thing with different descriptions in the spell tooltips then I'm out.  Again, I can appreciate and, in fact, see the need for that balance, but it is boring.

    What I do like is games that allow me to pick and choose among a variety of skills so that I can find my own unique path to winning within the game world.  For me, winning has never been about killing other players (except in LOTRO).

    Doesn't make you a bad person to like it.
    Slapshot1188EponyxDamor
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,946
    One pretty simple concept I’ve always had in mind was a mechanic for RvR games where each Realm gets a buff of some kind.  That buff is divided by the number of players on each side.  It would have to use average population over a certain time to avoid exploitation.  This would actually incentivize people to play on lower pop realms.  Maybe 20 guys from a small realm could hold off 30 from an over populated realm. The goal would not be balance, but fun.  
    Some people like being from a smaller realm and they enjoy the challenge of an unbalanced fight. No insult to you, but I just really feel this is where the wheels come off when developing a game.

    I'd like to see a developer create a racial variety called the 'scrapper'.
    I bet you'd get clans built around the race - people who enjoy the hard knocks thing.

    It would be interesting to explore the realm of imbalance - or at the very least, balanced that doesn't necessarily mean even 1:1 or group:group.
    I played as a Hib in DAOC.  It was a badge of honor.  We absolutely hated the other 2 realms because we were so small. But it made victory so much sweeter.
    ultimateduck

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    One pretty simple concept I’ve always had in mind was a mechanic for RvR games where each Realm gets a buff of some kind.  That buff is divided by the number of players on each side.  It would have to use average population over a certain time to avoid exploitation.  This would actually incentivize people to play on lower pop realms.  Maybe 20 guys from a small realm could hold off 30 from an over populated realm. The goal would not be balance, but fun.  
    Some people like being from a smaller realm and they enjoy the challenge of an unbalanced fight. No insult to you, but I just really feel this is where the wheels come off when developing a game.

    I'd like to see a developer create a racial variety called the 'scrapper'.
    I bet you'd get clans built around the race - people who enjoy the hard knocks thing.

    It would be interesting to explore the realm of imbalance - or at the very least, balanced that doesn't necessarily mean even 1:1 or group:group.
    I played as a Hib in DAOC.  It was a badge of honor.  We absolutely hated the other 2 realms because we were so small. But it made victory so much sweeter.
    I played Hib for a couple of months.
    I never did make it out to PvP - I liked void magic though.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    I have explained several times over, that is not what balance is, and I have even used examples in real games that I play, to show this is purely not the case.

    Yet, your side, those that think Imbalance is some great thing, stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to this reality, and rather cling to their foolish notions.


    I'll restate your definition of balance to make sure I'm getting it correct.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd advocate balance either being solid 1 vs 1, solid group vs. group, or rock/paper scissors where the outcome isn't determined by the class but by the skill of the player.

    If that is the case I totally respect that balancing mechanism and I ignore every game that features it.

    If I read a website for a new game and the game features realm vs. realm I check out the classes on each side.  If each side has a tank, wizard, and cleric and they're all just reskinned versions of the same thing with different descriptions in the spell tooltips then I'm out.  Again, I can appreciate and, in fact, see the need for that balance, but it is boring.

    What I do like is games that allow me to pick and choose among a variety of skills so that I can find my own unique path to winning within the game world.  For me, winning has never been about killing other players (except in LOTRO).

    Doesn't make you a bad person to like it.
    What RvR games have you played?

    See, when people tell me that suck ass balance is the king shits, and the only game they can come up with is a 15 year old decaying dinosaur that has not seen an update in decade, as their Flagship of this success.. 

    I'm not buying it.

    But hey.. I won't stop you from playing (it?).. just don't tell me that it's a good plan, or good idea, or somehow successful, as it isn't.

    I won't stop you from living in your delusions.. just don't try to tell me their is any truth to them.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited February 6
    Ungood said:
    It’s almost like a bizarre Monty Pythons Quest for the Holy Grail scene.  One group comes to siege the castle and instead of starting battle they instead start counting numbers to see how many are on each side.  Then they have to ask 12 guys to sit it out to insure “balance”. Then they start arguing which escalated into a fight where 20 are killed.  So they now go and demand they people in the castle have 8 people sit out. To which they all get on the ramparts and moon.

    This entire argument that any and all games that have PvP all need to be balanced at the character level is a joke so I suggest we move past it and stop allowing one stubborn guy to play Groundhog Day. 
    Yup.. as predictable as the rising sun.. makes a jab and yet STILL can't answer my one single question.

    Not going to play Ground Hog day with you. Just assume that my future posts in this thread are not addressed to you as they arent.  Enjoy Fortnite and Overwatch.  They are great games that millions like.
    Translation: You can't answer my Question.

    and.. it seems you also can't read my Sig.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:You were so defeated, you were so totally and ultimately defeated that you have completely surrendered to the point of just making the best of losing. 

    .. Ok.. Humor me.. How did you find that fun?

    Yes.
    I found it fun because I was outsmarting the other guy.

    The point of PKing was to rob a person of material goods.  It was a 'profession' in UO - a day time job to get cash.  I was denying the PK cash and I was making it back to town with full loot bags.   I didn't have to build the perfect PvP template to buy a house or make ends meet.  The game was flexible enough for me to do it my way and to define a win in my own terms.

    I could go into PK hotspots and leave with my loot.
    I left with my loot without killing any other players.

    So let me see if I have this right.

    They Kill Your Character.
    They Loot Your Character.
    and yet you still keep the loot on your character.

    To be honest that sounds you're abusing a bug in the game.

    Can't say I can respect that.. 
    Slapshot1188
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member UncommonPosts: 196
    edited February 6
    What RvR games have you played?

    See, when people tell me that suck ass balance is the king shits, and the only game they can come up with is a 15 year old decaying dinosaur that has not seen an update in decade, as their Flagship of this success.. 

    I'm not buying it.

    But hey.. I won't stop you from playing (it?).. just don't tell me that it's a good plan, or good idea, or somehow successful, as it isn't.

    I won't stop you from living in your delusions.. just don't try to tell me their is any truth to them.

    A game can be a financial success and still fail at beaing a good game.  Just because the ignorant masses like something doesn't mean it's good and it certainly doesn't mean it better than something that made less money. McDonalds doesn't make a better hamburger than the Lazy Dog Pub down the street from my house just because McDonalds sells more.

    Your idea of balance is what ruined MMOs. A modern MMO is the equivalent to a FPS in a persistent world that has auto grouping in quest zones.  They are made to allow a person to log in, play for 15 to 30 minutes and leave.  The classes are identical throughout the factions/realms/sides/etc.  There is no sense of uniqueness.  There is no investment in a character. There is no community. There is no diversity in the available classes between factions/realms/etc. This is why people get bored of them so fast.

    The reason people bring up "15 year old decaying dinosaur" games is because that was the golden age of MMOs.  They were difficult.  They required a certain level of commitment that you didn't mind giving. You didn't get a participation medal for logging in.  You had to work to get your toon leveled and gear up in a manner in which he could compete with other characters, and it was work that was fun and sometimes frustrating. They certainly weren't fair. If I had more time and effort into my character, I had an advantage... it was that simple. You have people who still pay a sub to these dinosour games because they have everything a modern MMO doesn't.

    You don't seem to get this. It makes me wonder if you actually like MMOs.  Maybe your tastes have moved to something a little more... simple.


    [edit] Seeing that you joined MMORPG in Dec of 2017 and have almost 2000 posts, I'm guessing you just like to hear yourself talk.
    SteelhelmSlapshot1188Pemmin
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited February 6
    What RvR games have you played?

    See, when people tell me that suck ass balance is the king shits, and the only game they can come up with is a 15 year old decaying dinosaur that has not seen an update in decade, as their Flagship of this success.. 

    I'm not buying it.

    But hey.. I won't stop you from playing (it?).. just don't tell me that it's a good plan, or good idea, or somehow successful, as it isn't.

    I won't stop you from living in your delusions.. just don't try to tell me their is any truth to them.

    A game can be a financial success and still fail at beaing a good game.  Just because the ignorant masses like something doesn't mean it's good and it certainly doesn't mean it better than something that made less money. McDonalds doesn't make a better hamburger than the Lazy Dog Pub down the street from my house just because McDonalds sells more.
    So. you are all like.. Numbers matter.. now you are all like.. numbers don't matter.. Blah.. Blah.. Blah.. flip.. flop.. flip.. flop..


    Your idea of balance is what ruined MMOs. 
    Nah, their foolish notion to try to be like PvE games is what killed them.

    Hence why the only "successful" game you have to fall on is a 15 year old decaying dinosaur that has not gotten so much as an update in the last decade.

    My Idea.. well.. that on the other hand.. has kept MMO's alive.. and PvP games thriving.

    ultimateduck said:
     They are made to allow a person to log in, play for 15 to 30 minutes and leave.  The classes are identical throughout the factions/realms/sides/etc.  There is no sense of uniqueness.  There is no investment in a character. There is no community. There is no diversity in the available classes between factions/realms/etc. This is why people get bored of them so fast.
    And yet.. League of Legends, after 10 years, is rocking 100 Million Players.

    Even games like Team Fortress 2, which has roles and classes all that jazz, and is now 12 year old game has up to 66 Thousand Players in any given day.

    The reason people bring up "15 year old decaying dinosaur" games is because that was the golden age of MMOs.  

    LOL, Nahh.. hard truth here..you don't have any other game to fall back on.

    But you know, I'll give you a shot.. show me a modern game, say within the last 6 years, that supports what you think works.. I suppose it being fiscally (or population wise) successful might be asking too much.. but.. just give me something to show that it works.. would be nice.
      
    [edit] Seeing that you joined MMORPG in Dec of 2017 and have almost 2000 posts, I'm guessing you just like to hear yourself talk.

    Oh look, personal insult. How quaint.

    "When you know you lost, insults become the tool of the loser" Socrates, or he said something along those lines.

    Edit:also noting that you have not listed what RvR games you are playing ;)
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,351
    edited February 6
    I'm not being snarky here, but how does a game balance "player skill?"

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:You were so defeated, you were so totally and ultimately defeated that you have completely surrendered to the point of just making the best of losing. 

    .. Ok.. Humor me.. How did you find that fun?

    Yes.
    I found it fun because I was outsmarting the other guy.

    The point of PKing was to rob a person of material goods.  It was a 'profession' in UO - a day time job to get cash.  I was denying the PK cash and I was making it back to town with full loot bags.   I didn't have to build the perfect PvP template to buy a house or make ends meet.  The game was flexible enough for me to do it my way and to define a win in my own terms.

    I could go into PK hotspots and leave with my loot.
    I left with my loot without killing any other players.

    So let me see if I have this right.

    They Kill Your Character.
    They Loot Your Character.
    and yet you still keep the loot on your character.

    To be honest that sounds you're abusing a bug in the game.

    Can't say I can respect that.. 
    I hid the loot in the environment when I noticed the PK approaching.
    It wasn't a bug or an exploit - in real MMORPGs you can actually interact with the game world.

    The only loot they got off my character was a few token things I let them find so they wouldn't look any further.

    I know that any type of winning outside of one player killing another is hard for you to comprehend but in a really good game world there are other alternatives that are very amusing.
    Steelhelm
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    edited February 6
    Ungood said:


    See, when people tell me that suck ass balance is the king shits...

    I don't see where that has been written.

    I do see where people are looking for alternate ways to balance.
    I do see where people are looking for class/skill flexibility instead of cookie cutter classes.
    I do see where people are looking for some variety in balance.
    I do see where people are looking for fun at the cost of balance instead of balance at the cost of fun.

    If you have to cast all that as: 

    "LOL, derp...people want a game where a lone, crippled hobbit with 10 hps tries to kill the Liche King who has 10,000 hps - and get this, *snort*, he has to do with with a spatula while the Liche King wields the eternal sword of Gobsmack - lol *snort*".

    I'll respond to your posts again when you are actually talking about what everyone else is talking about.  Until then, if I don't respond assume you're still of in the merry land of strawmen because I've no interest in defending the weird caricature you're throwing up.







    Slapshot1188Scorchien
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    AlBQuirky said:
    I'm not being snarky here, but how does a game balance "player skill?"
    It cannot, Ungoober wants all games with PvP to be determined entirely by reflexes.


    Slapshot1188ultimateduck
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,946
    The Masked Singer is a ratings juggernaught.  Henceforth all entertainment shows must feature singers dressed up in ridiculous costumes.   The people have spoken!  It’s amazing how people will jump to false conclusions based on one data point.

    So rather than playing GroundHog day over and over... what would you guys like to see in a PvP game? To me, I have absolutely zero desire to see balance attempted at a character level. I do not mind attempts on the Realm level (in RvR games) in order to help address issues with people jumping onto one side.

    ScorchienultimateduckEponyxDamorSteelhelm

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,606
    Ungood said:
    Ungood, your idea of balance is homogenization, something nobody wants in an MMO.  People suffer through it now with MMOs because they have nothing else, but they complain the entire time about how MMOs are dying.  Well, your mindset is why they are dying. 
    Have you ever stopped to ponder that the problem is that MMO's should stop pretending to be PvP games, when they are clearly not outfitted for the task?

    They are not PVP games, they are wars, with all of the imbalances war tends to encompass.

    You seek fair fights (a sport) I seek to crush others with any advantage I can muster,  because losing should never be an option.

    If I lack the skill to beat you I'm running, and will come back when I have clear advantage, be it gear, friends or exploiting the game mechanics to full legal advantage.

    Spend some time in EVE and you'll better understand.

    WargfootYVEponyxDamorUngoodSteelhelm

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood, your idea of balance is homogenization, something nobody wants in an MMO.  People suffer through it now with MMOs because they have nothing else, but they complain the entire time about how MMOs are dying.  Well, your mindset is why they are dying. 
    Have you ever stopped to ponder that the problem is that MMO's should stop pretending to be PvP games, when they are clearly not outfitted for the task?

    They are not PVP games, they are wars, with all of the imbalances war tends to encompass.

    You seek fair fights (a sport) I seek to crush others with any advantage I can muster,  because losing should never be an option.

    If I lack the skill to beat you I'm running, and will come back when I have clear advantage, be it gear, friends or exploiting the game mechanics to full legal advantage.

    Spend some time in EVE and you'll better understand.

    This.
    Anymore I go into a game with the mindset: If I'm taking damage I'm doing it wrong.

    Obviously, that doesn't always work out real well in the real world; however, the goal isn't to have a balanced fight - the goal is to so humiliate the other side that they leave the game, sell their computer, and spend the rest of their lives holding a sign on a street corner.
    Kyleran
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member UncommonPosts: 196
    "So. you are all like.. Numbers matter.. now you are all like.. numbers don't matter.. Blah.. Blah.. Blah.. flip.. flop.. flip.. flop.."

    This is you being willfully ignorant.  I never said numbers don't matter.  I said just because they make more money doesn't mean they are better.  That success isn't dictated by the ignorant masses. One game can be better than another even though it brought in less revenue.  Given your logic, the game in your sig shouldn't exist.



    "Nah, their foolish notion to try to be like PvE games is what killed them.

    Hence why the only "successful" game you have to fall on is a 15 year old decaying dinosaur that has not gotten so much as an update in the last decade.

    My Idea.. well.. that on the other hand.. has kept MMO's alive.. and PvP games thriving."


    They are trying to appease people like you, who want FPS balance in an MMO.  This is the result... garbage MMOs. You have no one to blame but yourself and people like you.  Congratulations. 



    "And yet.. League of Legends, after 10 years, is rocking 100 Million Players.

    Even games like Team Fortress 2, which has roles and classes all that jazz, and is now 12 year old game has up to 66 Thousand Players in any given day."

    Is League of Legenda an MMO?  How about Team Fortress?  You mock others for bringing up 15 year old MMOs and you counter with old games that aren't MMOs... kind of proving my point.



    "LOL, Nahh.. hard truth here..you don't have any other game to fall back on.

    But you know, I'll give you a shot.. show me a modern game, say within the last 6 years, that supports what you think works.. I suppose it being fiscally (or population wise) successful might be asking too much.. but.. just give me something to show that it works.. would be nice."

    You aren't listening because you think you already know everything.  You just said what everyone else has been saying this whole thread, but it seems you just want to argue and show everyone your right.



    "Oh look, personal insult. How quaint.

    "When you know you lost, insults become the tool of the loser" Socrates, or he said something along those lines.

    Edit:also noting that you have not listed what RvR games you are playing ;)"

    How is pointing out fact insulting?  Fact: You've been a member of this site for about a year.  Fact: You have almost 2000 posts in that year.  Considering you are now trying to tell everyone what everyone has been telling you since the beginning of this thread, I'd say it's safe to assume you just like to hear yourself talk because you have to be right. I'd be willing to bet if I did a scan of all your posts, and large majority of them would be argumentative.  It's who you are an a potential character flaw you may want to look in to.

    I play a variety of games off and on... some old (DAoC, Eve), some new (AA, SotA), some beta (Crowfall, Star Citizen).  I pop into Overwatch with my brother for a few rounds every day and I play a few hands of MTG Arena.

    Slapshot1188
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    AlBQuirky said:
    I'm not being snarky here, but how does a game balance "player skill?"
    Fair, and this is honest, not trying to be snarky at all with this answer: It doesn't.. and it's not supposed to.
    AlBQuirky
  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 726
    The Masked Singer is a ratings juggernaught.  Henceforth all entertainment shows must feature singers dressed up in ridiculous costumes.   The people have spoken!  It’s amazing how people will jump to false conclusions based on one data point.

    So rather than playing GroundHog day over and over... what would you guys like to see in a PvP game? To me, I have absolutely zero desire to see balance attempted at a character level. I do not mind attempts on the Realm level (in RvR games) in order to help address issues with people jumping onto one side.

    When games like SWTOR have two "distinct" factions, but the classes of the opposing faction are just mirrors of one another with slightly different animations it makes for the most uninteresting game play. I have zero interest in games like this for PvP purposes; then again, I grew up with games like DAOC and EQ, where PvP was rarely "fair" or "balanced" -- especially on the character level. I also enjoyed Warhammer Online and EVE Online's PvP for similar reasons.

    When it comes to MMOs and open-world PvP or large-scale PvP, PvP *shouldn't* be balanced on the character-level. Large-scale MMO battles aren't the same as E-Sports matches; they aren't meant to be.
    Slapshot1188WargfootYVultimateduckSteelhelm
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    I'm not being snarky here, but how does a game balance "player skill?"
    Fair, and this is honest, not trying to be snarky at all with this answer: It doesn't.. and it's not supposed to.
    Actually, every game does reign in player skill.

    If a game limits how fast you can swing your sword regardless of whatever speed you can click your mouse then it is leveling the playing field a little bit.  In that sense the size of your arms and back muscles is reduced down to a nervous twitch in your finger.

    This allows 10 year old girls to compete with a samurai warrior in a sword fight - and win.

    Games that only balance along the lines of nervous twitches have so paired down human ability as to be effectively measuring nothing at all.  This is why people want to explore other types of balance.
    ultimateduck
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood, your idea of balance is homogenization, something nobody wants in an MMO.  People suffer through it now with MMOs because they have nothing else, but they complain the entire time about how MMOs are dying.  Well, your mindset is why they are dying. 
    Have you ever stopped to ponder that the problem is that MMO's should stop pretending to be PvP games, when they are clearly not outfitted for the task?

    They are not PVP games, they are wars, with all of the imbalances war tends to encompass.

    You seek fair fights (a sport) I seek to crush others with any advantage I can muster,  because losing should never be an option.

    If I lack the skill to beat you I'm running, and will come back when I have clear advantage, be it gear, friends or exploiting the game mechanics to full legal advantage.

    Spend some time in EVE and you'll better understand.

    Ya know, this is a solid point.

    These RvR or "War" games are not PvP games.

    The players going into these games are not looking to play against another player, they are simply looking to ensure victory be damned any other factors. Which is really more a PvE mindset than a PvP one, where the goal is victory not challenge, which explains the attitude and mindset many of these players have.

    Unlike balanced PvP games where it feels like a sport, and it's all GG/GL/HF, Butt Pats all around, and "Sorry for the Numbers" if the match ended up unbalanced due to disconnects. In these MMO's RvR games, it's riddled full of ganking, trolling, and a large portion of just toxic unapologetic hate with a win at any cost mindset.

    I suppose I had noticed it, but never really gave it much thought that there seems to be a level of sportsman like respect in PvP games that I have played, that is simply not present in these "MMO War" games.

    With that said, I can't fault game developers for figuring out they could make, what amounts to a PvE game without a care or worry about balance, and as opposed to making challenging PvE content, they could dump players against each other and they would fight it out and entertain themselves that way.

    Well with that said.

    I suppose you win the discussion.

    In these RvR games, balance does not need matter.

    In a PvP game, it does.
    EponyxDamorSlapshot1188
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:


    Ya know, this is a solid point.

    These RvR or "War" games are not PvP games.
    I'll see you and raise you: I don't think computer games can be true PvP because in many cases it is HvH (hardware vs. hardware) or CvC (connection vs. connection).

    It isn't a real PvP encounter unless you're in an alley behind a strip club, bloody hunting knife in your hand and the cooling corpse of a mouthy Irish bartender at your feet.  The light misty rain brings you back to your senses - you nod to Candy, your way of telling her to get into the car, she smirks, drops her cigarette, pulls her faux fur tight around her shoulders and clicks off in her clear heels. The rationalizations start to pour into your mind like the Irishman's blood into the gutter - he shouldn't have made that crack to Candy, she might be a stripper but she's a GODDAMN HUMAN BEING - not tonight, not to her, not on your watch.

    ^-- That is PvP, dammit, don't hate the player, hate the game.

    Biyaaaatches!
    Steelhelm
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member UncommonPosts: 196
    Don't you just love all the absolutes Ungood comes up with?

    "These RvR or "War" games are not PvP games.

    The players going into these games are not looking to play against another player, they are simply looking to ensure victory be damned any other factors. Which is really more a PvE mindset than a PvP one, where the goal is victory not challenge, which explains the attitude and mindset many of these players have.

    Unlike balanced PvP games where it feels like a sport, and it's all GG/GL/HF, Butt Pats all around, and "Sorry for the Numbers" if the match ended up unbalanced due to disconnects. In these MMO's RvR games, it's riddled full of ganking, trolling, and a large portion of just toxic unapologetic hate with a win at any cost mindset."



    This is your opinion.  So again... a PvP/RvR MMOs and a FPS or MOBA are not the same. You keep trying to compare the two when, in reality, the only thing they have in common is that they are video games. What balances one will destroy balance in another. What makes one fun to play will make the other near unplayable. It isn't a hard concept.

    I don't know if you are aware, but DAoC has titles for solo kills (Lone Enforcer).  People often set up duels for 1 on 1 fights.  Many times did I watch realm mates stay out of a fair fight between two other players. People often talked shit on the forums while at work (guilty) so when they got home they could kill for the realm. It was a community.

    That's what makes MMOs different than the games you keep trying to bring up.  An MMO community has a choice on what actions to take.  FPS and MOBAs you don't.  You join a game to win, a team wins, the end.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:


    Ya know, this is a solid point.

    These RvR or "War" games are not PvP games.
    I'll see you and raise you: I don't think computer games can be true PvP because in many cases it is HvH (hardware vs. hardware) or CvC (connection vs. connection).

    It isn't a real PvP encounter unless you're in an alley behind a strip club, bloody hunting knife in your hand and the cooling corpse of a mouthy Irish bartender at your feet.  The light misty rain brings you back to your senses - you nod to Candy, your way of telling her to get into the car, she smirks, drops her cigarette, pulls her faux fur tight around her shoulders and clicks off in her clear heels. The rationalizations start to pour into your mind like the Irishman's blood into the gutter - he shouldn't have made that crack to Candy, she might be a stripper but she's a GODDAMN HUMAN BEING - not tonight, not to her, not on your watch.

    ^-- That is PvP, dammit, don't hate the player, hate the game.

    Biyaaaatches!
    Well.. Nothing makes your point like insane ramblings like this.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Don't you just love all the absolutes Ungood comes up with?

    Will you ever learn how to use the quote option correctly?
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