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Is Balance All That?

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The Sole point of PvP game to start with, is that victory lies in the hands of the player, not the character.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character not the player.


    Who the heck decided decided that?  You?

    That is absolutely 100% not true for me.  At all.


    It may not be true for you,

    But, that was decided by every successful PvP game out there.

    You errantly lump all games that have PvP together. There is a fundamental difference between a game like Overwatch and a game like DAOC.  If you think the sole point of DAOC was that victory lay with the hands of the player then you played quite a different version of the game than I did.

    Again, balance in an open world PvP game is a fool’s errand.

    SteelhelmUngood

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,634
    edited February 2019
    I would agree with that statement,pvp should always be in the hands of the player.

    This very topic and complaint is one i mentioned with RNG and playing Hearthstone.The thing that blows my mind is that upon discussion it was VERY clear that 90% of the people did not understand it at all,i was just like wtf.I would get dumbass comments like "well said player had to play great to be able to be in the position to get lucky".You could have played 59.99 minutes of 60 minutes 100% perfectly but if you topdeck a winning play with any less than 100% accuracy meaning you could have easily drawn a LOSING play,then you got LUCKY there is no other result than LUCKY or unlucky.

    There is always going to be a luck factor in even real life sports never mind any kind of Esport of pvp gaming.However unbalance such as p2w or level based or gear based is NOT and never will be a FAIR pvp setting.This would be EXACTLY like two track athletes lining up for the 100m race and one athlete is given a 5m head start.A 100m run is PVP,player versus player and there is not one NOT ONE single runner who would ever accept it as being legit or fair unless all combatants have  the same EQUAL, FAIR start.
    Not having the same level or same gear or having some special buff the other player does not have is not a FAIR match,it is like auto rolling the result before it even happens.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,109
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The Sole point of PvP game to start with, is that victory lies in the hands of the player, not the character.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character not the player.


    Who the heck decided decided that?  You?

    That is absolutely 100% not true for me.  At all.


    It may not be true for you,

    But, that was decided by every successful PvP game out there.

    You errantly lump all games that have PvP together. There is a fundamental difference between a game like Overwatch and a game like DAOC.  If you think the sole point of DAOC was that victory lay with the hands of the player then you played quite a different version of the game than I did.

    Again, balance in an open world PvP game is a fool’s errand.

    I am going to say this again.

    The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character.

    If you wanted a game where you won because your character was able to simply overpower your opponent, you should stay with PvE games.

    And if it truly is a fools errand.. than perhaps they should stop trying to make Open World PvP games, the junk yard is getting kinda full.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The Sole point of PvP game to start with, is that victory lies in the hands of the player, not the character.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character not the player.


    Who the heck decided decided that?  You?

    That is absolutely 100% not true for me.  At all.


    It may not be true for you,

    But, that was decided by every successful PvP game out there.

    You errantly lump all games that have PvP together. There is a fundamental difference between a game like Overwatch and a game like DAOC.  If you think the sole point of DAOC was that victory lay with the hands of the player then you played quite a different version of the game than I did.

    Again, balance in an open world PvP game is a fool’s errand.

    I am going to say this again.

    The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character.

    If you wanted a game where you won because your character was able to simply overpower your opponent, you should stay with PvE games.

    And if it truly is a fools errand.. than perhaps they should stop trying to make Open World PvP games, the junk yard is getting kinda full.

    So explain how the whole point of DAOC was that victory was about the player not the character.  
    You were probably one of those fools that would try and “duel” an enemy 1-1 in the middle of a battle.  The ones we ran over on our way to the Keep.


    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • t0nydt0nyd Member UncommonPosts: 510
    edited February 2019
    Well rock-paper-scissors style games have a combination of character and player skill. With most of these games your designated weakness has an advantage but it's not impossible to beat them. Isn't that the point of that style of game? In PvP it's not always about player skill, depending on the game. Even with third or first-person shooters.  But isn't that the type of balance they want in the style of games? A game where you have counters and you are a counter to some?
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,109
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The Sole point of PvP game to start with, is that victory lies in the hands of the player, not the character.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character not the player.


    Who the heck decided decided that?  You?

    That is absolutely 100% not true for me.  At all.


    It may not be true for you,

    But, that was decided by every successful PvP game out there.

    You errantly lump all games that have PvP together. There is a fundamental difference between a game like Overwatch and a game like DAOC.  If you think the sole point of DAOC was that victory lay with the hands of the player then you played quite a different version of the game than I did.

    Again, balance in an open world PvP game is a fool’s errand.

    I am going to say this again.

    The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character.

    If you wanted a game where you won because your character was able to simply overpower your opponent, you should stay with PvE games.

    And if it truly is a fools errand.. than perhaps they should stop trying to make Open World PvP games, the junk yard is getting kinda full.

    So explain how the whole point of DAOC was that victory was about the player not the character.  
    You were probably one of those fools that would try and “duel” an enemy 1-1 in the middle of a battle.  The ones we ran over on our way to the Keep.


    You strike me as an Albion player.

    Well.. I played Hibernia, the odds were often something like 30 Albion, 15 Midguard, and like 5 of us.. 

    It was so bad that it was a standing joke that Albion had a Zerg class, as such, It didn't matter what classes we were playing and the only thing we could do for fun was duel, well some of us would have fun doing suicide runs stealth killing the casters on the other team, that was fun for a bit..but as far as the game went, the larger battles, there was really no point, as we were always vastly out numbered.

    With that put out, DAoC sucked as far as my experience with the game went...so I have no rose colored glasses regarding it.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member EpicPosts: 1,826
    Are we talking 1v1 or 2v2 or 3v3 or more? There's a huge difference in gameplay between 1v1 and group battles. You could have variety of builds for group battles that are completely imbalanced in 1v1.

    Nail that down first and go from there. I personally prefer more options that mesh well in groups for both pve and pvp. Whenever you have everyone the same it's no longer an RPG and just a fighter of some kind.
    Slapshot1188AlBQuirkySteelhelm
    "Wake up, It's RNG, there is no such thing as 'rare'"
    - Ungood
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The Sole point of PvP game to start with, is that victory lies in the hands of the player, not the character.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character not the player.


    Who the heck decided decided that?  You?

    That is absolutely 100% not true for me.  At all.


    It may not be true for you,

    But, that was decided by every successful PvP game out there.

    You errantly lump all games that have PvP together. There is a fundamental difference between a game like Overwatch and a game like DAOC.  If you think the sole point of DAOC was that victory lay with the hands of the player then you played quite a different version of the game than I did.

    Again, balance in an open world PvP game is a fool’s errand.

    I am going to say this again.

    The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character.

    If you wanted a game where you won because your character was able to simply overpower your opponent, you should stay with PvE games.

    And if it truly is a fools errand.. than perhaps they should stop trying to make Open World PvP games, the junk yard is getting kinda full.

    So explain how the whole point of DAOC was that victory was about the player not the character.  
    You were probably one of those fools that would try and “duel” an enemy 1-1 in the middle of a battle.  The ones we ran over on our way to the Keep.


    You strike me as an Albion player.

    Well.. I played Hibernia, the odds were often something like 30 Albion, 15 Midguard, and like 5 of us.. 

    It was so bad that it was a standing joke that Albion had a Zerg class, as such, It didn't matter what classes we were playing and the only thing we could do for fun was duel, well some of us would have fun doing suicide runs stealth killing the casters on the other team, that was fun for a bit..but as far as the game went, the larger battles, there was really no point, as we were always vastly out numbered.

    With that put out, DAoC sucked as far as my experience with the game went...so I have no rose colored glasses regarding it.

    Funny because not only was I a Hib... I was a spear hero.  Probably the single worst class in the game for PvP at launch.  My main ability was to turn into a Moose once a fight for a few seconds.

    I played on Palomides and we were by FAR the least populated.  It was still an awesome game and some of my favorite online experiences.  I still game with the same crew that formed in that game.

    But no, you can’t dodge this that easily.  You said DAOC was a PvP game.  You said “The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.”

    So, since nobody disputes that DAOC was a PvP game please explain how the whole point of it was that “Victory lies in the hands of the player”.  Your statement is demonstrably wrong as DAOC was very much a character based game.  Realms were unbalanced, races were unbalanced, and classes were certainly unbalanced. Even it’s pure PvP leveling (Realm Ranks) caused further imbalances.

    So yeah, if your argument is that esport (balanced) PvP is more popular sure... who would argue that.  But to say that “The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.” is again, demonstrably wrong because it certainly wasn’t the whole point of DAOC.

    DAOC rocked because it didn’t have balanced classes. By design each class was distinct.
    SteelhelmUngood

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,109
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    Ungood said:
    The Sole point of PvP game to start with, is that victory lies in the hands of the player, not the character.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character not the player.


    Who the heck decided decided that?  You?

    That is absolutely 100% not true for me.  At all.


    It may not be true for you,

    But, that was decided by every successful PvP game out there.

    You errantly lump all games that have PvP together. There is a fundamental difference between a game like Overwatch and a game like DAOC.  If you think the sole point of DAOC was that victory lay with the hands of the player then you played quite a different version of the game than I did.

    Again, balance in an open world PvP game is a fool’s errand.

    I am going to say this again.

    The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.

    Imbalance puts victory in the hands of the character.

    If you wanted a game where you won because your character was able to simply overpower your opponent, you should stay with PvE games.

    And if it truly is a fools errand.. than perhaps they should stop trying to make Open World PvP games, the junk yard is getting kinda full.

    So explain how the whole point of DAOC was that victory was about the player not the character.  
    You were probably one of those fools that would try and “duel” an enemy 1-1 in the middle of a battle.  The ones we ran over on our way to the Keep.


    You strike me as an Albion player.

    Well.. I played Hibernia, the odds were often something like 30 Albion, 15 Midguard, and like 5 of us.. 

    It was so bad that it was a standing joke that Albion had a Zerg class, as such, It didn't matter what classes we were playing and the only thing we could do for fun was duel, well some of us would have fun doing suicide runs stealth killing the casters on the other team, that was fun for a bit..but as far as the game went, the larger battles, there was really no point, as we were always vastly out numbered.

    With that put out, DAoC sucked as far as my experience with the game went...so I have no rose colored glasses regarding it.

    Funny because not only was I a Hib... I was a spear hero.  Probably the single worst class in the game for PvP at launch.  My main ability was to turn into a Moose once a fight for a few seconds.

    I played on Palomides and we were by FAR the least populated.  It was still an awesome game and some of my favorite online experiences.  I still game with the same crew that formed in that game.

    But no, you can’t dodge this that easily.  You said DAOC was a PvP game.  You said “The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.”

    So, since nobody disputes that DAOC was a PvP game please explain how the whole point of it was that “Victory lies in the hands of the player”.  Your statement is demonstrably wrong as DAOC was very much a character based game.  Realms were unbalanced, races were unbalanced, and classes were certainly unbalanced. Even it’s pure PvP leveling (Realm Ranks) caused further imbalances.

    So yeah, if your argument is that esport (balanced) PvP is more popular sure... who would argue that.  But to say that “The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.” is again, demonstrably wrong because it certainly wasn’t the whole point of DAOC.

    DAOC rocked because it didn’t have balanced classes. By design each class was distinct.
    DAoC didn't rock.. just FYI.. was a "Golden Age" game where the choices of MMO were vastly limited, and even with the fact that is had the market cornered with what it offered, it still did less than half EQ's population. 

    Now, Just in case you didn't know this, but DAoC only saw 2 years of plateaued population before going into direct decline vs the 6 years of growth by EQ, and even more modern games like GW2 are enjoying more ongoing success than DAoC had ever seen.

    So, No.. DAoC was not a holy grail of success or a gold standard, as far as PvP games go, it was at best a good first gen for that kind of game, riddled with all kinds of issues and mistakes that it's predecessors tried to fix, one of which was it's really bad balance issues.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,109
    Ungood said:
    In fact, as far back as 1999, EQ proves you could make totally helpless classes in a PvE game, and they would still be massively successful. In fact, it was PvE games that built the idea of being good at one thing or having a special trait or feature to their class, thus building a whole team work (That whole Playing a Role in the Group make up) set up for their MMO.

    Since than, PvP games have been trying to emulate the same idea of inter-dependency or unique abilities denoted to a class, that PvE games have enjoyed since their inception, with varying degrees of catastrophic fail.

    That is because, Balance Matters in PvP games.
    Saying this again.. just for you @Slapshot1188 in case you missed it the first time... varying degrees of Catastrophic Fail.

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,147
    Ungood said:
    No thanks. Not a PvP'er. If it has classes, gear, and levels, I don't believe you. Unless they strip that all away and you go mano-a-mano all naked with fists. Or... we define "balance" much differently. How does "your perfect game" handle numbers, as in 3v1  or 12v4? Is that balanced?

    Really, it all comes back to our difference of opinion as to why we play the games. You play to BE the character, your personal skills trump all gear, levels, and classes. I play to be a puppet master, building my character how I want them to be, not to reflect my own strengths and weaknesses.

    I want classes to matter. You don't. It sounds like you want cookie-cutter soldiers that all have M16s and kevlar. No medics. No snipers. No explosives experts. I could be wrong, but that's how it sounds to me. And that is genre (FPS) for PvP, not MMOs, in my opinion :)
    Slapshot1188

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    Say it all you want.  If you are now arguing that DAOC was a failure or that because you didn’t like it, it doesn’t make it true.  I will simply ask this again:

    But no, you can’t dodge this that easily.  You said DAOC was a PvP game.  You said “The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.”

    So, since nobody disputes that DAOC was a PvP game please explain how the whole point of it was that “Victory lies in the hands of the player” and not the character.

    You cannot, because your statement is demonstrably wrong.    It might be true of some esport PvP games, but it is not true about open world MMORPG games with PvP.  As I predicted and you admitted, you were one of those few who tried to play DAOC as a 1-1 game and were trying to duel single enemies while the rest of us ran over you on the way to assault the relic Keeps. This explains much.

    Chasing balance at the character level in a game where everyone has different levels, equipment, group size, and coordination is just a fool’s errand.  
    WargfootYVKyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 752
    All these things that have been "decided" or "tested and proven" have not been decided and were never tested and proven.  It is simply the perception of one guy who seems to think something is quantifiable when it isn't. Mathematically speaking, balance is simple. In actual game play it becomes more complicated and can be offset by any number of factors, especially in an MMO.

    Ungood, your idea of balance is homogenization, something nobody wants in an MMO.  People suffer through it now with MMOs because they have nothing else, but they complain the entire time about how MMOs are dying.  Well, your mindset is why they are dying.
    Slapshot1188SteelhelmAlBQuirky
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    All these things that have been "decided" or "tested and proven" have not been decided and were never tested and proven.  It is simply the perception of one guy who seems to think something is quantifiable when it isn't. Mathematically speaking, balance is simple. In actual game play it becomes more complicated and can be offset by any number of factors, especially in an MMO.

    Ungood, your idea of balance is homogenization, something nobody wants in an MMO.  People suffer through it now with MMOs because they have nothing else, but they complain the entire time about how MMOs are dying.  Well, your mindset is why they are dying.
    He seems to prefer Fortnite type games.  Lots of people do.  Nothing wrong with that as long as you understand that MMORPGs are of an entirely different genre. That's where he goes off the rails.
    ultimateduckKyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,109
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    No thanks. Not a PvP'er. If it has classes, gear, and levels, I don't believe you. Unless they strip that all away and you go mano-a-mano all naked with fists. Or... we define "balance" much differently. How does "your perfect game" handle numbers, as in 3v1  or 12v4? Is that balanced?
    I want to start off by saying, that I totally respect that PvP games are not for you. It's always a good thing to know where your preferences are, as opposed to muddying what you really want in a game.

    Also, I never said Eternal Crusade was perfect (it has its issues), only that I use it as a standard of what could be done.

    As for Team Size, well, like many other Battle Arena games, the Match does not start till there are enough players on each team for the map. So, unless your side had a lot of DC's (which happens), the overall match should be pretty fair numbers wise. A generic match is typically 15 vs 15.

    So tactics, gameplay, skill, and teamwork all play a role in how things happen in this game.

    If you ,as a player, are off doing solo charges against full squads of other players, you might not be as good at tactics and gameplay as you think... just saying.

    Keep in mind a Fair or balanced System, only means it's your skills as a player that matters the most, not that the game gives you an even shot to win every encounter.

    Also.. here is a Video by Hive Leader, that explains the game for you. It was EA in that video and has a far more advanced leveling and progress system than they showed.



    AlBQuirky said:
    Really, it all comes back to our difference of opinion as to why we play the games. You play to BE the character, your personal skills trump all gear, levels, and classes. I play to be a puppet master, building my character how I want them to be, not to reflect my own strengths and weaknesses.
    I am going to say that I love the term Puppet Master. That is a great way to phrase this.

    It seems that MMO players want Puppet vs Puppet fights, and PvP players want Player vs Player fights.

    And I really like the expression Puppet Master for this, as it is amazing accurate, because it shows that these kinds of games are more PvE like not a PvP one, as it is my puppet vs their puppet, not Me vs Them. As I could be much higher skilled, but because I am not playing a proper combo of class/build/gear, I am at a vast disadvantage.

    It's like watching a "Battle Bots" and, I'll admit, there is a level of fun to see what these people create, but all too often one design often takes the forefront (like the wedge cars), and it becomes a match less about the controller and more about the bot itself. But that is the nature of that show and that kind of match.

    The biggest problem with games like that, is they are trying to be PvP when they are not cut out for the task.
    AlBQuirkyKyleran
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,109
    Ungood, your idea of balance is homogenization, something nobody wants in an MMO.  People suffer through it now with MMOs because they have nothing else, but they complain the entire time about how MMOs are dying.  Well, your mindset is why they are dying. 
    Have you ever stopped to ponder that the problem is that MMO's should stop pretending to be PvP games, when they are clearly not outfitted for the task?

    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    Ungood said:
    Ungood, your idea of balance is homogenization, something nobody wants in an MMO.  People suffer through it now with MMOs because they have nothing else, but they complain the entire time about how MMOs are dying.  Well, your mindset is why they are dying. 
    Have you ever stopped to ponder that the problem is that MMO's should stop pretending to be PvP games, when they are clearly not outfitted for the task?

    Yes, clearly Eve, DAoC, etc... all should stop pretending to be PvP games.

    Look, we get it.  You like your Esports and your shooters.  GREAT!

    That doesn't invalidate an entire genre just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

    EponyxDamorultimateduck

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,109
    Ungood said:
    Ungood, your idea of balance is homogenization, something nobody wants in an MMO.  People suffer through it now with MMOs because they have nothing else, but they complain the entire time about how MMOs are dying.  Well, your mindset is why they are dying. 
    Have you ever stopped to ponder that the problem is that MMO's should stop pretending to be PvP games, when they are clearly not outfitted for the task?

    Yes, clearly Eve, DAoC, etc... all should stop pretending to be PvP games.

    Look, we get it.  You like your Esports and your shooters.  GREAT!

    That doesn't invalidate an entire genre just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

    Actually, all DAoC did was set the stage for lazy MMO development, where all a developer has to do is make a totally PvE game with no regards to class development or balance, when they run out funds to progress the PvE part of the game, just toss out some PvP areas as a cheap placebo for the rest of the game to keep suckers grinding, as they will eat that up, thinking they are playing a PvP game.

    So yes.. we really ought to stop pretending that DAoC was even remotely good as a PvP game, it wasn't.
    EponyxDamorSlapshot1188
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    Ungood said:


    So yes.. we really ought to stop pretending that DAoC was even remotely good as a PvP game, it wasn't.
    Good.  I'll just let that stand there so folks can be aware of where you come from.  Let's not confuse your opinion about if it was GOOD or not with a fact that it was, in fact, a PvP game.  And I guess no response about how a game like EvE should stop pretending to be a PvP game?

    Your entire argument in this thread has been laughable and a waste of time.  

    EponyxDamor

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • EponyxDamorEponyxDamor Member RarePosts: 732
    Ungood said:


    So yes.. we really ought to stop pretending that DAoC was even remotely good as a PvP game, it wasn't.
    Good.  I'll just let that stand there so folks can be aware of where you come from.  Let's not confuse your opinion about if it was GOOD or not with a fact that it was, in fact, a PvP game.  And I guess no response about how a game like EvE should stop pretending to be a PvP game?

    Your entire argument in this thread has been laughable and a waste of time.  

    "Other genres do certain kinds of PvP better (read: different), therefore MMOs shouldn't bother with PvP."

    Fantastic argument, I must say.


    Slapshot1188
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    edited February 2019
    Ungood said:


    So yes.. we really ought to stop pretending that DAoC was even remotely good as a PvP game, it wasn't.
    Good.  I'll just let that stand there so folks can be aware of where you come from.  Let's not confuse your opinion about if it was GOOD or not with a fact that it was, in fact, a PvP game.  And I guess no response about how a game like EvE should stop pretending to be a PvP game?

    Your entire argument in this thread has been laughable and a waste of time.  

    "Other genres do certain kinds of PvP better (read: different), therefore MMOs shouldn't bother with PvP."

    Fantastic argument, I must say.


    It's what most of the discussions with him sound like.  But anyhow...

    @OP ; As I said a few times above.  Chasing balance at a character level in an MMORPG is a fool's errand.  There are too many other factors such as gear, levels, races, terrain, communication...


    ScorchienSteelhelm

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,109
    Say it all you want.  If you are now arguing that DAOC was a failure or that because you didn’t like it, it doesn’t make it true.  I will simply ask this again:

    But no, you can’t dodge this that easily.  You said DAOC was a PvP game.  You said “The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.”

    So, since nobody disputes that DAOC was a PvP game please explain how the whole point of it was that “Victory lies in the hands of the player” and not the character.

    You cannot, because your statement is demonstrably wrong.    It might be true of some esport PvP games, but it is not true about open world MMORPG games with PvP.  As I predicted and you admitted, you were one of those few who tried to play DAOC as a 1-1 game and were trying to duel single enemies while the rest of us ran over you on the way to assault the relic Keeps. This explains much.

    Chasing balance at the character level in a game where everyone has different levels, equipment, group size, and coordination is just a fool’s errand.  
    Nahh.. can't say I ever got run over during a duel.

    Typically there was a whole circle of people, often like 10 - 20 of us standing around, dueling, chatting, and the like, testing classes against each other, seeing how they worked, it was a lot of fun, and I bet, that was the dawn of brought about PvP games were players wanted to test their skills.

    As for ran over, while in Hibernia? What was it.. as massive zerg of all 6 of you? LOL.

    Reality Check, DAoC was not a good PvP game in any sense of the word, you only think it was good because you still see it though Rose Colored Glasses, because that was where you made the most friends and still roll with them today.

    Truth is, if it tried to launch today, against the PvP games we have out, it would end up like all the other Open World PvP MMO's.. a dying ghost town.


    EponyxDamor
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,069
    Ungood said:
    Say it all you want.  If you are now arguing that DAOC was a failure or that because you didn’t like it, it doesn’t make it true.  I will simply ask this again:

    But no, you can’t dodge this that easily.  You said DAOC was a PvP game.  You said “The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.”

    So, since nobody disputes that DAOC was a PvP game please explain how the whole point of it was that “Victory lies in the hands of the player” and not the character.

    You cannot, because your statement is demonstrably wrong.    It might be true of some esport PvP games, but it is not true about open world MMORPG games with PvP.  As I predicted and you admitted, you were one of those few who tried to play DAOC as a 1-1 game and were trying to duel single enemies while the rest of us ran over you on the way to assault the relic Keeps. This explains much.

    Chasing balance at the character level in a game where everyone has different levels, equipment, group size, and coordination is just a fool’s errand.  
    Nahh.. can't say I ever got run over during a duel.

    Typically there was a whole circle of people, often like 10 - 20 of us standing around, dueling, chatting, and the like, testing classes against each other, seeing how they worked, it was a lot of fun, and I bet, that was the dawn of brought about PvP games were players wanted to test their skills.

    As for ran over, while in Hibernia? What was it.. as massive zerg of all 6 of you? LOL.

    Reality Check, DAoC was not a good PvP game in any sense of the word, you only think it was good because you still see it though Rose Colored Glasses, because that was where you made the most friends and still roll with them today.

    Truth is, if it tried to launch today, against the PvP games we have out, it would end up like all the other Open World PvP MMO's.. a dying ghost town.


    Whether you like it or not, DAOC was a PvP game.  So for the 4th time... your statement that the whole point of a PvP game is that the player matters and not the character is simply wrong. Simply and demonstrably... wrong.   Trying to negate an entire genre because you prefer shooters and battle arenas is just silly.  But we have reached the inevitable point all your discussions do where you stick your fingers in your ears, toss out some strawman that nobody is arguing and keep repeating the same disproven stuff over and over.

    You like Fortnite and Overwatch more than you like PvP in MMORPGs.  Great.  So do a lot of people.  Go enjoy those games.



    EponyxDamorScorchien

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member RarePosts: 752
    edited February 2019
    Excuse me whole I head over to www.RPG.com (I don't know if that's a real site) and complain that the PvE in those games sucks and it needs to be addressed.

    On second though, that would just make me look like an idiot.

    DAoC was a game where a character had to PvE to get levels, loot and materials used to craft in order to PvP.  The endgame was either high level farming/crafting (pure PvE) or getting realm ranks via PvP.  It was designed that way and it excelled at both.  This is what an MMO should be. 

    It is the deviation of this model that people like you push for that has made MMO developers lazy and all but ruined the genre.
    Slapshot1188
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 4,109
    Ungood said:
    Say it all you want.  If you are now arguing that DAOC was a failure or that because you didn’t like it, it doesn’t make it true.  I will simply ask this again:

    But no, you can’t dodge this that easily.  You said DAOC was a PvP game.  You said “The Whole Point of a PvP game is that Victory lies in the hands of the player.”

    So, since nobody disputes that DAOC was a PvP game please explain how the whole point of it was that “Victory lies in the hands of the player” and not the character.

    You cannot, because your statement is demonstrably wrong.    It might be true of some esport PvP games, but it is not true about open world MMORPG games with PvP.  As I predicted and you admitted, you were one of those few who tried to play DAOC as a 1-1 game and were trying to duel single enemies while the rest of us ran over you on the way to assault the relic Keeps. This explains much.

    Chasing balance at the character level in a game where everyone has different levels, equipment, group size, and coordination is just a fool’s errand.  
    Nahh.. can't say I ever got run over during a duel.

    Typically there was a whole circle of people, often like 10 - 20 of us standing around, dueling, chatting, and the like, testing classes against each other, seeing how they worked, it was a lot of fun, and I bet, that was the dawn of brought about PvP games were players wanted to test their skills.

    As for ran over, while in Hibernia? What was it.. as massive zerg of all 6 of you? LOL.

    Reality Check, DAoC was not a good PvP game in any sense of the word, you only think it was good because you still see it though Rose Colored Glasses, because that was where you made the most friends and still roll with them today.

    Truth is, if it tried to launch today, against the PvP games we have out, it would end up like all the other Open World PvP MMO's.. a dying ghost town.


    Whether you like it or not, DAOC was a PvP game.  So for the 4th time... your statement that the whole point of a PvP game is that the player matters and not the character is simply wrong. Simply and demonstrably... wrong.   Trying to negate an entire genre because you prefer shooters and battle arenas is just silly.  But we have reached the inevitable point all your discussions do where you stick your fingers in your ears, toss out some strawman that nobody is arguing and keep repeating the same disproven stuff over and over.

    You like Fortnite and Overwatch more than you like PvP in MMORPGs.  Great.  So do a lot of people.  Go enjoy those games.



    No. simply because you have contended yourself with piss poor PvP, shoving your fingers in your eats crying "But it's an MMO, it's supposed to have shit PvP" is not an excuse for accepting that this is the way things need to be.

    Your exact kind of mentality is what gave rise to all these WoW Clones, and carbon copies, because you accept what is, is what needs to be, just like you cry that MMO's need Levels, and gear scores and the like.

    You my chum.. are why there is no innovation in the MMO world today.
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
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