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Is Balance All That?

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  • cochscochs Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Ya you don't just give up because something is hard.  Balance is necessary.

    You need to correctly analyze the core problem which is one of complexity.  If you make a complex system, one with many possible variations, at a point it becomes impossible for just a couple of people to reason about.  So flaws are only discovered once many players have explored the design via gameplay.

    Which is why pure skill based systems are notoriously difficult to balance.  One way to help it is hybrid systems, which serve to limit the complexity in any single dimension.

    Eve Online for example is touted as a pure skill based system, but it's actually a hybrid.  Ships serve the role of classes.  If players could just build their own ship designs balance would be hugely more complex.  A limited set of ships reduces the complexity.

    So the solution is emphatically not to give players more freedom and choice.  That just makes it worse.  

    It's a provably hard problem using math, and at a high level it's known what the solution is.  Reduce complexity.  But throw in the larger context where you have to factor in things like progression and 'fun',  and it's anything but easy to solve for.
    tweedledumb99
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,254
    Scorchien said:
    All of the most endeared an well thought of RvR/PvP MMORPGs are/were not balanced ..

      Eve.... UO... DAOC.. Warhammer.. Asherons Call.. Shadowbane ..

      All unbalanced .. but fun as fuck .. thats what we are here for .............. correct?
    Not me, I only care for progression, and many activities in MMORPGS are not "fun" in any way, just chores one does to achieve their goals. 

    But back on topic balance is not something I worry about, always many out there who far exceed me for one reason or another,  I just try to succeed the best I can regardless.

    It's a carebear thing, you probably wouldn't understand. 

    ;)
    tweedledumb99WargfootYVAlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,821
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    All of the most endeared an well thought of RvR/PvP MMORPGs are/were not balanced ..

      Eve.... UO... DAOC.. Warhammer.. Asherons Call.. Shadowbane ..

      All unbalanced .. but fun as fuck .. thats what we are here for .............. correct?
    Not me, I only care for progression, and many activities in MMORPGS are not "fun" in any way, just chores one does to achieve their goals. 

    But back on topic balance is not something I worry about, always many out there who far exceed me for one reason or another,  I just try to succeed the best I can regardless.

    It's a carebear thing, you probably wouldn't understand. 

    ;)
    If the only thing you care about is progression, have you considered playing a clicker?  Pure progression without any distraction from other things like interesting game mechanics.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,254
    Quizzical said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    All of the most endeared an well thought of RvR/PvP MMORPGs are/were not balanced ..

      Eve.... UO... DAOC.. Warhammer.. Asherons Call.. Shadowbane ..

      All unbalanced .. but fun as fuck .. thats what we are here for .............. correct?
    Not me, I only care for progression, and many activities in MMORPGS are not "fun" in any way, just chores one does to achieve their goals. 

    But back on topic balance is not something I worry about, always many out there who far exceed me for one reason or another,  I just try to succeed the best I can regardless.

    It's a carebear thing, you probably wouldn't understand. 

    ;)
    If the only thing you care about is progression, have you considered playing a clicker?  Pure progression without any distraction from other things like interesting game mechanics.
    Not really sure what a clicker is, but perhaps so 

    Not much different than the rotation I'll be running tonight to kill a 100 plus npc's tonight. 

    There are other ways to level up doing pvp tasks which are supposed to be faster, but I  find such to be too inconsistent.

    Grinding NPCs I'm pretty sure I'll get  another level, whereas the chance to level more quickly holds little appeal if it's also possible I'll gain nothing. 

    Steady, predictable progression is my forte, which is why I suppose mining in EVE appealed to me for almost 3 years.

    In fact, when CCP introduced more unpredictability (aka risk) I left for good.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Kyleran said:

    Steady, predictable progression is my forte, which is why I suppose mining in EVE appealed to me for almost 3 years.

    This is probably me as well.
    I do like a bit of chaos, but in doses I manage.
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,567
    It's a very, very fine line.  Philosophically speaking, 100% balance is akin to the original Unreal Tournament: every has the same exact tools as everyone else, and may the best gamer win.  But that can become boring or monotonous, and is a poor fit for an RPG.

    As such, I don't think there will ever be a chance any RPG reaches "perfect" balance, but I feel they should at least strive to balance things to the point where there's valid and legitimate arguments to be had for multiple strategies/classes/builds/what have you.
    Uh ... were you actually around for the release of UT? Because I distinctly remember a massive wailing and gnashing of teeth from the Doom/ Quake boyos that getting one shoted by the sniper rifle was bullshit and refused to play if that's what we were doing on LaN party night.

    "He was a slob, did you ever see him eat? Starving children could fill their bellies on the food that ended up on his beard and clothes. Dogs would gather to watch him eat. I never understood gluttony, but I hate it. I hated that about you. He enjoyed disgusting people, being disgusting, the thrill of offending people and making them uncomfortable.
    . . . . You will not be missed."

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,238
    Quote function still messed up...

    @Ungood, I don't see the problem, really. I see that there can be problems, but not a given. Why doesn't "the other team" also have a rogue? Bad planning on their part, not class imbalance. Also, some classes have AoE snares that could stop a rogue in their spot. Sure, they have to guess, but there usually are ways. Since "everyone" knows the Cleric is the Rogue's first target, why aren't they watching for that attack, ready to unleash and/or trap the Rogue? That's not "imbalance", but rather poor gameplay.

    Also, in MMOs where gear and level factor in, how do you balance that? It's not just Player A vs Player B. It is their level and gear that also factor into the fight. This is the number one reason I think PvP has no place in MMOs. Unlike shooter/battle royale/arena battle games where everyone has equal chance at all gear with no levels to acquire, skill is top dog. MMOs have progression all over the place and this makes "balance" impossible.

    Sure my 50th level warrior beat the snot out of your 10th level ranger. How do you "balance" that? Even characters of the same level are rarely equal. Some will do quests that others won't and get those rewards. Some will craft and get nice gear that way where others won't. Some are in guilds and have easy access to areas a non-guild character doesn't. How do you balance this? Maybe by going back to FPS games and stripping all the progression and making everyone "the same?"

    Speaking of "the same"...

    MMOs now have classes that self heal easily. They have classes that all have alpha strikes. Their classes have access to great defenses, if they want. The same, all of them. So what if one alpha strike is a fireball and another is a grenade? They're both high damage output, done by supposedly "different" classes.

    I do want to give kudos to GW 2 that tried to work synergies into group play.Rangers shooting arrows through Elementalists fire rings gave them "fire arrows", as one example. Unfortunately, those synergies went over the heads of most players.

    No, "balance" in MMOs is as likely as "world peace." But some still desire it more than anything :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 20,821
    Kyleran said:
    Quizzical said:
    Kyleran said:
    Scorchien said:
    All of the most endeared an well thought of RvR/PvP MMORPGs are/were not balanced ..

      Eve.... UO... DAOC.. Warhammer.. Asherons Call.. Shadowbane ..

      All unbalanced .. but fun as fuck .. thats what we are here for .............. correct?
    Not me, I only care for progression, and many activities in MMORPGS are not "fun" in any way, just chores one does to achieve their goals. 

    But back on topic balance is not something I worry about, always many out there who far exceed me for one reason or another,  I just try to succeed the best I can regardless.

    It's a carebear thing, you probably wouldn't understand. 

    ;)
    If the only thing you care about is progression, have you considered playing a clicker?  Pure progression without any distraction from other things like interesting game mechanics.
    Not really sure what a clicker is, but perhaps so 

    Not much different than the rotation I'll be running tonight to kill a 100 plus npc's tonight. 

    There are other ways to level up doing pvp tasks which are supposed to be faster, but I  find such to be too inconsistent.

    Grinding NPCs I'm pretty sure I'll get  another level, whereas the chance to level more quickly holds little appeal if it's also possible I'll gain nothing. 

    Steady, predictable progression is my forte, which is why I suppose mining in EVE appealed to me for almost 3 years.

    In fact, when CCP introduced more unpredictability (aka risk) I left for good.
    The idea of a clicker is that if the game is open, you're progressing.  If you click on things, you progress faster.  If you close the game, you might continue progressing for a while.  This can be showing your character killing an endless parade of monsters and getting loot, or it could be without the combat.  Use your loot to get stronger somehow so that you progress faster.

    What distinguishes this from a conventional MMORPG is that a clicker is massively simpler in terms of game mechanics.  Imagine that auto-attack is always on, you never take damage, and you have only one skill, with no cooldown.  Also, the instant that one monster dies, another spawns in its place.  There's no travel involved, but you can buy upgrades wherever you are.  Depending on the game, clickers can be a little more complicated than that, but not much.

    Clicker Heroes seems to have popularized the genre, but Steam has a ton of games tagged as "clicker".  If all that you care about is progression, clickers offer progression in its purest form.  If you're hoping for interesting game mechanics other than progression, the whole point of a clicker is not to offer that.
    tweedledumb99
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,758
    Ungood said:

    The Best Players Win
    .

    Yes, but in a MMORPG the best at what?

    1: reflexes
    2: strategy
    3: teamwork
    4: puzzle solving

    There should be more to PvP then just reflexes, which in the case of Unreal Tournament, it was mostly reflexes.

    The answer to this.. is Yes.

    But keep in mind, again, crappy balance just compounds the problem of better players owning you, it does not lessen it.
    WargfootYV
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,758
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quote function still messed up...

    @Ungood, I don't see the problem, really. I see that there can be problems, but not a given. Why doesn't "the other team" also have a rogue?

    Ok. Well.. see your mistake was to assumed it was a fight of 4 vs 4,

    The reality of what I described was 3 vs 1, it was JUST the Rogue vs all 3 of the other classes at the same time.. and winning.

    Now do you see the problem of bad balance?
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 1,944
    If we talking about balance in multiplayer game , think using MOBA game like LOL or DOTA is better example .
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,238
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quote function still messed up...

    @Ungood, I don't see the problem, really. I see that there can be problems, but not a given. Why doesn't "the other team" also have a rogue?

    Ok. Well.. see your mistake was to assumed it was a fight of 4 vs 4,

    The reality of what I described was 3 vs 1, it was JUST the Rogue vs all 3 of the other classes at the same time.. and winning.

    Now do you see the problem of bad balance?
    I see what you're getting at, but I don't see it as a "problem." This is why I feel that PvP has no place in games with progression. Because of this "need for balance", the MMORPG genre I fell in love with died.

    I play a Cleric because I want to heal, not 1-shot another player. I play a Ranger because I like nature and animals and to want befriend them, not 1-shot another player. I play a Warrior with a sword and board so I can protect others, not 1-shot them. PvP has sucked the differences from classes and races, all in the name of the unobtainable balance myth.
    UngoodKyleranjimmywolf

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,758
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quote function still messed up...

    @Ungood, I don't see the problem, really. I see that there can be problems, but not a given. Why doesn't "the other team" also have a rogue?

    Ok. Well.. see your mistake was to assumed it was a fight of 4 vs 4,

    The reality of what I described was 3 vs 1, it was JUST the Rogue vs all 3 of the other classes at the same time.. and winning.

    Now do you see the problem of bad balance?
    I see what you're getting at, but I don't see it as a "problem." This is why I feel that PvP has no place in games with progression. Because of this "need for balance", the MMORPG genre I fell in love with died.

    I play a Cleric because I want to heal, not 1-shot another player. I play a Ranger because I like nature and animals and to want befriend them, not 1-shot another player. I play a Warrior with a sword and board so I can protect others, not 1-shot them. PvP has sucked the differences from classes and races, all in the name of the unobtainable balance myth.
    I see you got the quote function working, kudos.

    I have been a vocal believer that it is near impossible to balance a game for both PvE and PvP, so I am with you that in Role Based Progression Style games like MMO's, that PvP is not a good fit.

    But, If a company is going to put in PvP in their Game than they are obligated to balance it.

    AlBQuirky
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,254
    edited January 31
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quote function still messed up...

    @Ungood, I don't see the problem, really. I see that there can be problems, but not a given. Why doesn't "the other team" also have a rogue?

    Ok. Well.. see your mistake was to assumed it was a fight of 4 vs 4,

    The reality of what I described was 3 vs 1, it was JUST the Rogue vs all 3 of the other classes at the same time.. and winning.

    Now do you see the problem of bad balance?
    I see what you're getting at, but I don't see it as a "problem." This is why I feel that PvP has no place in games with progression. Because of this "need for balance", the MMORPG genre I fell in love with died.

    I play a Cleric because I want to heal, not 1-shot another player. I play a Ranger because I like nature and animals and to want befriend them, not 1-shot another player. I play a Warrior with a sword and board so I can protect others, not 1-shot them. PvP has sucked the differences from classes and races, all in the name of the unobtainable balance myth.
    I see you got the quote function working, kudos.

    I have been a vocal believer that it is near impossible to balance a game for both PvE and PvP, so I am with you that in Role Based Progression Style games like MMO's, that PvP is not a good fit.

    But, If a company is going to put in PvP in their Game than they are obligated to balance it.

    I guess,  but is it even possible, certainly not perfectly or to every player's understanding.

    CCP has constantly worked to balance combat over the years,  but every time they killed one FOTM build a new one would spring up. (Saw same in GW1)

    I chased FOTM for awhile but got tired of being nerfed just about the time I achieved it so I ended up running three regular accounts.

    This enabled me to train max pilot skills on virtually every single combat hull and fitting, (outside of super caps) basically making me nerf proof, whatever was FOTM, I could fly it immediately.

    A never ending battle which Devs have to fight I suppose, but I believe it's mostly to create an "illusion" of balance, as in a progression game things are rarely equal between combatants.

    AlBQuirky

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 5,363
    Even if a company could balance a game perfectly, and even if a Nobel Prize winning mathematician could prove that it is balanced perfectly, the first noob to be killed by a wizard will scream wizards are OP. And if enough of them screamed this, wizards would be nerfed. 
    KyleranAlBQuirkyjimmywolfultimateduck

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,204
    I have talked about this topic in the past based on having played TONS of games in every genre,i know what works and what doesn't.
    Balance ONLY matters in a pvp setting,in that case it MUST be balanced.This is the very reason i do NOT like pvp in my rpg's it steers a game design in the WRONG direction and will NEVER be the best it can be.

    PVE only then you do not need any balance and then are free to move the game in any direction you see as being FUN and/or interactive.

    There is only one problem that can arise but that can be solved if your developer or the system designers have half a brain.That one problem is if one class is too good or too powerful,then everyone wants to play that one class.

    So now leads to the endless topic of game and system design and i cannot possibly describe every possibility and flaw since game design takes a long time to get right.I can however use an example from my fave rpg "FFXI".You can have a class considered the best in game "Redmage".However why it was the best was because it had so many tools to survive and to kill but it did everything VERY slowly.So because it was so slow you would not get the dilemma of the entire server wanting to play that one class.So a pure healer like the White Mage could just be better at healing,a Black Mage better at dps/nuking,a Samurai dealing out combos for tons of damage,a Paladin has better defense and hate control,Thiefs help control hate and make great pullers it goes on and on.

    point being that in a good design one great class does not deter from what the game is trying to do ,IF done right.
    AlBQuirkyjimmywolf

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,758
    Kyleran said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quote function still messed up...

    @Ungood, I don't see the problem, really. I see that there can be problems, but not a given. Why doesn't "the other team" also have a rogue?

    Ok. Well.. see your mistake was to assumed it was a fight of 4 vs 4,

    The reality of what I described was 3 vs 1, it was JUST the Rogue vs all 3 of the other classes at the same time.. and winning.

    Now do you see the problem of bad balance?
    I see what you're getting at, but I don't see it as a "problem." This is why I feel that PvP has no place in games with progression. Because of this "need for balance", the MMORPG genre I fell in love with died.

    I play a Cleric because I want to heal, not 1-shot another player. I play a Ranger because I like nature and animals and to want befriend them, not 1-shot another player. I play a Warrior with a sword and board so I can protect others, not 1-shot them. PvP has sucked the differences from classes and races, all in the name of the unobtainable balance myth.
    I see you got the quote function working, kudos.

    I have been a vocal believer that it is near impossible to balance a game for both PvE and PvP, so I am with you that in Role Based Progression Style games like MMO's, that PvP is not a good fit.

    But, If a company is going to put in PvP in their Game than they are obligated to balance it.

    I guess,  but is it even possible, certainly not perfectly or to every player's understanding.

    CCP has constantly worked to balance combat over the years,  but every time they killed one FOTM build a new one would spring up. (Saw same in GW1)

    I chased FOTM for awhile but got tired of being nerfed just about the time I achieved it so I ended up running three regular accounts.

    This enabled me to train max pilot skills on virtually every single combat hull and fitting, (outside of super caps) basically making me nerf proof, whatever was FOTM, I could fly it immediately.

    A never ending battle which Devs have to fight I suppose, but I believe it's mostly to create an "illusion" of balance, as in a progression game things are rarely equal between combatants.

    The Short Answer is: Yes it can be.

    This is obvious, because, MOBA's FPS, BR and many other PvP focused game are in fact pulling it off, in all different ways. Many of them even have progression ladders.

    This is often done by putting in balances to every ability.

    Let me use an example. In Eternal Crusade, Eldar are huge stealth users, but using a scope can spot these hidden players. Also players can't sneak directly towards someone, if a player is looking directly at a player who is hidden, they will be able to spot them (If they know what they are looking for)

    Now, to be fair, the ability to see clean though stealth is ONLY if a player uses the Scope (which is not the best option to have going all the time, if you plan to move, run, etc, you don't use a scope, you only commonly use a scope when you are fortifying an area). So if a Striking Scorpion jumps out of hiding, attacks the Apothecary, there is a good chance, everyone around them is going to scrape up and riddled that Eldar full of bullet hell. 

    Now, the Scorpion my kill the Apothecary in a single attack before getting shot down, then again, if the Apothecary invested into top tier armor, and responded fast enough, maybe not.

    Which means, even attacking a lone healer by a stealth class is not a guaranteed win like it is most of these other games.

    A lot of this is also by giving players the means to both defend and attack, in this case, in Eternal Crusade, a "Healer" has access to a lot of the same Armor and Weapons everyone else has, they just start with a much lower base AC, making them far easier to Kill, but that in no way means they won't or can't lay a beat down on you.

    No one you face in Eternal Crusade is a guaranteed kill. You could play an Assault, charge a heavy (which is weak to assault), and still lose that fight. 

    As testament to this,I have gotten Crusader (Most Melee Kills) and Preserver (Best Healer) simultaneously more times than I care to admit in that game, that is mainly due to the fact that while as a Apothecary I don't have the armor and HP to sustain a fight, I can still beat the health out of you with my magic healing stick, and out maneuver you.

    And Keep in Mind, Eternal Crusade, has 4 Factions (Ork, Space Marines, Chaos Marines, Eldar), with at least 5 classes per faction (Eldar have 7) as whole series of various kinds of gear (Armor, Weapons, Extra's) ranging from common to unique, with various kinds of traits, abilities, as well as the game having flat out levels.

    Now, I am going to be honest, Eternal Crusade is far from perfect in it's balance, it has many of it's own issues, like Eldar as a whole faction being OP, but I still use it as a benchmark of balance against any PvP game I play. So far, I have been overly underwhelmed by what is out there.
    KyleranAlBQuirky
  • JakeSimJakeSim Member RarePosts: 873
    Without balance, there is no balance. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 
    Please come check out my stream. All the love is appreciated! 

    TWITCH: @JakeSimTV
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,238
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quote function still messed up...

    @Ungood, I don't see the problem, really. I see that there can be problems, but not a given. Why doesn't "the other team" also have a rogue?

    Ok. Well.. see your mistake was to assumed it was a fight of 4 vs 4,

    The reality of what I described was 3 vs 1, it was JUST the Rogue vs all 3 of the other classes at the same time.. and winning.

    Now do you see the problem of bad balance?
    I see what you're getting at, but I don't see it as a "problem." This is why I feel that PvP has no place in games with progression. Because of this "need for balance", the MMORPG genre I fell in love with died.

    I play a Cleric because I want to heal, not 1-shot another player. I play a Ranger because I like nature and animals and to want befriend them, not 1-shot another player. I play a Warrior with a sword and board so I can protect others, not 1-shot them. PvP has sucked the differences from classes and races, all in the name of the unobtainable balance myth.
    I see you got the quote function working, kudos.

    I have been a vocal believer that it is near impossible to balance a game for both PvE and PvP, so I am with you that in Role Based Progression Style games like MMO's, that PvP is not a good fit.

    But, If a company is going to put in PvP in their Game than they are obligated to balance it.

    The quote function worked, it just looks all wonky. My reply is inside the quote box. I read in another thread that if I just posted the reply, it came out OK :)

    Anyway... My question is how does a company balance a game with gear, classes, and levels? I want to know because you feel it's their "obligation" to do so. Is that a valid assumption or demand?

    Maybe it is "all that", as the title says, but should it be?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    AlBQuirky said:

    Maybe it is "all that", as the title says, but should it be?

    When I used to play UO back in the pre-Trammel days I had neither the connection speed nor the skills to do anything meaningful with traditional PvP.  For me, building a perfect PvP template was mind-numbingly boring.

    I developed a strategy where I'd leave town with NOTHING but a few simple cloths and I'd tame some bears and use them and any items I found as weapons and armor.  I kept a few trinkets I found in my backpack, but placed all valuables I found into a small bag - when a red name would ride onto the screen I'd drop the small bag of valuables behind a tree.

    I'd get murdered and the PK would find nothing but junk.

    I'd run back to my body and get my stuff (worthless, so the pk wouldn't take it), duck behind the tree and pick up my gold and valuables, and go back to taming and hunting.  I lost literally nothing.

    Let's review:
    1: PK spend 10-15 gold in reagents to kill me.  Got nothing in return.
    2: I lost 5 minutes of my time, lost no loot, and gained 0.1 in resist magic.

    Who won?

    In my opinion I totally owned that encounter.

    I think an important part of balance is making games complex enough for the users to be able to create their own balance.   After UO I couldn't play games for a long time that didn't allow you to drop stuff on the ground - great depth modeled after realism will give players a shot at finding solutions to their PK/balance issues.
    AlBQuirky
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,758
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Quote function still messed up...

    @Ungood, I don't see the problem, really. I see that there can be problems, but not a given. Why doesn't "the other team" also have a rogue?

    Ok. Well.. see your mistake was to assumed it was a fight of 4 vs 4,

    The reality of what I described was 3 vs 1, it was JUST the Rogue vs all 3 of the other classes at the same time.. and winning.

    Now do you see the problem of bad balance?
    I see what you're getting at, but I don't see it as a "problem." This is why I feel that PvP has no place in games with progression. Because of this "need for balance", the MMORPG genre I fell in love with died.

    I play a Cleric because I want to heal, not 1-shot another player. I play a Ranger because I like nature and animals and to want befriend them, not 1-shot another player. I play a Warrior with a sword and board so I can protect others, not 1-shot them. PvP has sucked the differences from classes and races, all in the name of the unobtainable balance myth.
    I see you got the quote function working, kudos.

    I have been a vocal believer that it is near impossible to balance a game for both PvE and PvP, so I am with you that in Role Based Progression Style games like MMO's, that PvP is not a good fit.

    But, If a company is going to put in PvP in their Game than they are obligated to balance it.

    The quote function worked, it just looks all wonky. My reply is inside the quote box. I read in another thread that if I just posted the reply, it came out OK :)

    Anyway... My question is how does a company balance a game with gear, classes, and levels? I want to know because you feel it's their "obligation" to do so. Is that a valid assumption or demand?

    Maybe it is "all that", as the title says, but should it be?
    Play the game in my Sig.

    It has, gear, levels, classes, factions, everything an MMO has, and damn near ideal balance.

    Then come back and here and justify to me why everyone else can't do the same.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,758
    But again.

    in a PvP game, balance ensures that the Challege is the skill and ability of the other player, making all encounters a risk.

    Without Balance, it becomes a Class vs Class game, and if that is what anyone wants, they may as well play PvE.
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:

    Play the game in my Sig.

    It has, gear, levels, classes, factions, everything an MMO has, and damn near ideal balance.

    Then come back and here and justify to me why everyone else can't do the same.
    I think it is in how you define the term "balance".

    Is balance the ability to farm the same gold per hour, to have a 50% chance in a PvP encounter, to be able to do all the quests solo, to have the same utility in a group, to have the same level of difficulty to play?

    ^--- If a game has all that balance in place then I'm not interested because basically all the classes are identical with different graphics.
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:
    But again.

    in a PvP game, balance ensures that the Challege is the skill and ability of the other player, making all encounters a risk.

    Without Balance, it becomes a Class vs Class game, and if that is what anyone wants, they may as well play PvE.
    I asked you earlier what skill was being measured in the skill vs. skill you've set up here.
    Is it reflexes, cunning, knowledge of the systems, intelligence, planning, etc?
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,758
    Ungood said:

    Play the game in my Sig.

    It has, gear, levels, classes, factions, everything an MMO has, and damn near ideal balance.

    Then come back and here and justify to me why everyone else can't do the same.
    I think it is in how you define the term "balance".

    Is balance the ability to farm the same gold per hour, to have a 50% chance in a PvP encounter, to be able to do all the quests solo, to have the same utility in a group, to have the same level of difficulty to play?

    ^--- If a game has all that balance in place then I'm not interested because basically all the classes are identical with different graphics.
    This topic is about PvP.

    In case you missed that.
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