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Is Balance All That?

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  • Morgenes83Morgenes83 Member UncommonPosts: 118
    Some people here think that no balance gives them a chance to win against "better" players, but mostly that's not the case.

    The reality is enemies which not only have better reflexes, but also better gear, so it's even easier for them to win.

    When a new fotm arrives those people have the needed classes/items after a few days in the best quality, while us normal people still have to grind for weeks.

    If you win against other players in such games is either a worse player or pure luck.
    But winning against a better player because you have the bad balance on your side is mostly not the case.

    If someone "plays" better than you and also has much better gear the chances to win are even smaller.
    You having better gear than them is mostly not the case.

    Exceptions are counter classes, but that's something I consider to be balance.

    I prefer a balanced game where I have a chance when playing smart or when the enemy makes a mistake than some game where I have to play 4 hours a day to do at least a bit damage to the enemy before he one shots me or kills me in stun lock.

    Nothing is more annoying than power creep in PvP doing no damage to someone because he played more.
    And that's why PvP MMOs are dying.
    People rather play MOBAs or BRs because the chances are even.

    As for PvE as already said my opinion is the exact opposite
    AlBQuirkyWargfoot

    1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO 

    Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,949
    Some people here think that no balance gives them a chance to win against "better" players, but mostly that's not the case.

    The reality is enemies which not only have better reflexes, but also better gear, so it's even easier for them to win.

    When a new fotm arrives those people have the needed classes/items after a few days in the best quality, while us normal people still have to grind for weeks.

    If you win against other players in such games is either a worse player or pure luck.
    But winning against a better player because you have the bad balance on your side is mostly not the case.

    If someone "plays" better than you and also has much better gear the chances to win are even smaller.
    You having better gear than them is mostly not the case.

    Exceptions are counter classes, but that's something I consider to be balance.

    I prefer a balanced game where I have a chance when playing smart or when the enemy makes a mistake than some game where I have to play 4 hours a day to do at least a bit damage to the enemy before he one shots me or kills me in stun lock.

    Nothing is more annoying than power creep in PvP doing no damage to someone because he played more.
    And that's why PvP MMOs are dying.
    People rather play MOBAs or BRs because the chances are even.

    As for PvE as already said my opinion is the exact opposite
    That’s what we call a Strawman.  Nobody is arguing that Fortnite is not the most popular game on the planet.

    That has zero to do with an MMORPG.  By their very nature MMORPGs encourage grouping.  The opposite of the BR 1 vs all mentality.

    You can implement mechanics to mitigate level differences... but that’s meaningless in an MMORPG.  In these games you have a wide variance in group sizes and communication capabilities.  

    Trying to balance an MMORPG at the character level is a fools errand.

    For those that want a sporting event PvP with fair and balanced play... enjoy Fortnite.  It’s a good game for what it is although I prefer PUBG.

    Last thing I want is for my MMORPG to try and mirror Fortnite.

    AlBQuirkyWargfootSteelhelmultimateduck

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Some people here think that no balance gives them a chance to win against "better" players, but mostly that's not the case.

    The reality is enemies which not only have better reflexes, but also better gear, so it's even easier for them to win.

    When a new fotm arrives those people have the needed classes/items after a few days in the best quality, while us normal people still have to grind for weeks.

    If you win against other players in such games is either a worse player or pure luck.
    But winning against a better player because you have the bad balance on your side is mostly not the case.

    If someone "plays" better than you and also has much better gear the chances to win are even smaller.
    You having better gear than them is mostly not the case.

    Exceptions are counter classes, but that's something I consider to be balance.

    I prefer a balanced game where I have a chance when playing smart or when the enemy makes a mistake than some game where I have to play 4 hours a day to do at least a bit damage to the enemy before he one shots me or kills me in stun lock.

    Nothing is more annoying than power creep in PvP doing no damage to someone because he played more.
    And that's why PvP MMOs are dying.
    People rather play MOBAs or BRs because the chances are even.

    As for PvE as already said my opinion is the exact opposite
    I did try to explain that a game being off balance actually worked against them, and that imbalance only made things worse than the game trying to build a more fair balanced fight.

    But, keep in mind a lot of the people that are opposing this, are seeing things through rose colored glasses from a era and game that was made in yesteryear. Before rise of Power Gamers, and Hardcore Min/Max players became more a norm. So they still have this fantasy that they cling to, that it was somehow better, and, truth be told, maybe during that era of time past, time they had a better chance.

    But, Such would not be the case today as you clearly pointed out, the "good" players would simply monopolize on any advantage they could get, would be geared better and faster than anyone not as hardcore, and make the presence of any imbalance just that much more pronounced.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
    If you keep practicing you'll get there.
    In your "Fun" thread I think you're doing a good job.
    Well, Thank you for not being a deplorable Troll in that thread at least.
    Why does the phrase, "I know you are, but what am I?" come to mind?
    As it turns out, I did  learn everything I needed to know in Kindergarten.
    That is obvious, as it seems you never left.

    Are we done now, or do you have a few more lame troll posts left in you? If you keep this trolling up long enough, we will be graced by that other Troll that keeps talking about groundhogs.
    Lame troll posts?
    Okay, that hurt a little bit.

    I thought the part where you talked about not being a troll - and I intentionally misread it as you talking about yourself not being a troll - was some of my finer work, and at the very least, wasn't lame.

    You've labeled some of the finest work on this forum as lame.

    Just for that, I hope the groundhog guy comes back.

    There, I said it.

    Ok, I'll give you that it was not nearly as lame as that pitiful cry for attention you put in my topic, but still kindergarten level.
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Alternate forms of balance or the ability to choose to play a more difficult character isn't the same as an imbalanced game.  I feel like some people are talking character vs. character balance and others are more meta in their approach.

    So when I say, "Is Balance All That?" I'm referring to the character level - which is silly, one-dimensional, and boring IMHO.  I'm not saying to completely disregard it, only that it isn't the be all, end all for me personally.  

    It would be important in simplistic, large scale, pure PvP games but not important in a deep MMORPG.

    I won't be discussing this further with anyone who refuses to recognize this distinction.
    The caricature will no longer be entertained.
    Slapshot1188Steelhelm
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,353
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    This is an awesome post! It makes me wonder why players NOT at the top ("There can be only one!") log in everyday? They have very little chance of winning, unless they only fight worse players than themselves.
    Let me ask you a question. Do you quit a game if you are not the best at it? The game itself does not matter, but when you get into the game, and realize that there are players that are simply better at this game than you will ever be, do you quit?

    The moment you realize that you will not be among the top 1% of the players in that game, do you Just pack it up and go home, play some other game that you can be the best at? 

    This kinda reminds me of other discussions when players talk about Challenge in PvE games, and some players, that challenge is beyond, and you will often hear "But you can do other things", or "Just because you can't have everything is no reason to quit that's very petty" and the ever popular "Shouldn't the better players get something too" often with cries that people should not have access to everything in the game, that there should be rewards for skill, time investment, and the like, for the better players.

    I believe in those discussions, you have supported the idea of challenge in PvE games, for there to be things for the better players.

    And now.. you are wondering why the "Non Best" players in a PvP game wouldn't quit.. I guess for the same reasons why the non-best players in a PvE game don't quit.

    Unless.. of course, you are the kind of player that unless you are the best, you quit, then I suppose you rightfully wouldn't understand.
    No. It may surprise you, but I don't play games to "compete/win", but rather to enjoy my time playing them.

    7 billion people on this planet. I'm not "the best" at anything :)
    WargfootCryomatrixultimateduck

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    This is an awesome post! It makes me wonder why players NOT at the top ("There can be only one!") log in everyday? They have very little chance of winning, unless they only fight worse players than themselves.
    Let me ask you a question. Do you quit a game if you are not the best at it? The game itself does not matter, but when you get into the game, and realize that there are players that are simply better at this game than you will ever be, do you quit?

    The moment you realize that you will not be among the top 1% of the players in that game, do you Just pack it up and go home, play some other game that you can be the best at? 

    This kinda reminds me of other discussions when players talk about Challenge in PvE games, and some players, that challenge is beyond, and you will often hear "But you can do other things", or "Just because you can't have everything is no reason to quit that's very petty" and the ever popular "Shouldn't the better players get something too" often with cries that people should not have access to everything in the game, that there should be rewards for skill, time investment, and the like, for the better players.

    I believe in those discussions, you have supported the idea of challenge in PvE games, for there to be things for the better players.

    And now.. you are wondering why the "Non Best" players in a PvP game wouldn't quit.. I guess for the same reasons why the non-best players in a PvE game don't quit.

    Unless.. of course, you are the kind of player that unless you are the best, you quit, then I suppose you rightfully wouldn't understand.
    No. It may surprise you, but I don't play games to "compete/win", but rather to enjoy my time playing them.

    7 billion people on this planet. I'm not "the best" at anything :)
    So that answers why people who may only be rank 50 in a BR game still play.. because the game itself is fun to them, not to be the best at it. 
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Wargfoot said:
    Alternate forms of balance or the ability to choose to play a more difficult character isn't the same as an imbalanced game.  I feel like some people are talking character vs. character balance and others are more meta in their approach.

    So when I say, "Is Balance All That?" I'm referring to the character level - which is silly, one-dimensional, and boring IMHO.  I'm not saying to completely disregard it, only that it isn't the be all, end all for me personally.  

    It would be important in simplistic, large scale, pure PvP games but not important in a deep MMORPG.

    I won't be discussing this further with anyone who refuses to recognize this distinction.
    The caricature will no longer be entertained.
    Question.

    You are not for fairness in a game, why you against P2W. The end result is the same regardless if they farmed/bought the advantage over you.

    By the way.. love that you have several accounts, do you really get banned that much?
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    AlBQuirky said:
    No. It may surprise you, but I don't play games to "compete/win", but rather to enjoy my time playing them.

    7 billion people on this planet. I'm not "the best" at anything :)
    I think this is a good place to be in gaming.
    I've laughed hardest while losing.
    AlBQuirky
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243

    Nothing is more annoying than power creep in PvP doing no damage to someone because he played more.
    And that's why PvP MMOs are dying.
    People rather play MOBAs or BRs because the chances are even.

    As for PvE as already said my opinion is the exact opposite
    I think you may be correct.
    I've yet to see a good balance for PvP in a game that features significant progression.

    So yeah, if you want PvP that is balanced MOBAs are the way to go, which of course, makes balance in those kinds of game absolutely essential, whereas in a MMORPG, not so much.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,353
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    This is an awesome post! It makes me wonder why players NOT at the top ("There can be only one!") log in everyday? They have very little chance of winning, unless they only fight worse players than themselves.
    Let me ask you a question. Do you quit a game if you are not the best at it? The game itself does not matter, but when you get into the game, and realize that there are players that are simply better at this game than you will ever be, do you quit?

    The moment you realize that you will not be among the top 1% of the players in that game, do you Just pack it up and go home, play some other game that you can be the best at? 

    This kinda reminds me of other discussions when players talk about Challenge in PvE games, and some players, that challenge is beyond, and you will often hear "But you can do other things", or "Just because you can't have everything is no reason to quit that's very petty" and the ever popular "Shouldn't the better players get something too" often with cries that people should not have access to everything in the game, that there should be rewards for skill, time investment, and the like, for the better players.

    I believe in those discussions, you have supported the idea of challenge in PvE games, for there to be things for the better players.

    And now.. you are wondering why the "Non Best" players in a PvP game wouldn't quit.. I guess for the same reasons why the non-best players in a PvE game don't quit.

    Unless.. of course, you are the kind of player that unless you are the best, you quit, then I suppose you rightfully wouldn't understand.
    No. It may surprise you, but I don't play games to "compete/win", but rather to enjoy my time playing them.

    7 billion people on this planet. I'm not "the best" at anything :)
    So that answers why people who may only be rank 50 in a BR game still play.. because the game itself is fun to them, not to be the best at it. 
    I wonder what percentage of those players think "balance is all that." :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    What is a BR game?
    Steelhelm
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    I'm going to assume Ungood has acquiescedto all my points in this thread, unless he clarifies in the next 12 hrs.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,949
    Wargfoot said:
    I'm going to assume Ungood has acquiescedto all my points in this thread, unless he clarifies in the next 12 hrs.
    I don’t think he’ll be responding for a few days based on his avatar.
    Wargfoot

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Wargfoot said:
    I'm going to assume Ungood has acquiescedto all my points in this thread, unless he clarifies in the next 12 hrs.
    I don’t think he’ll be responding for a few days based on his avatar.
    Yes, I saw that which is why I'm taking this opportunity to win the debate.
    I'll share my trophy with you.
    Slapshot1188
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