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Is Balance All That?

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  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    AlBQuirky said:



    Do they log in, look to see who else is on (better players than themselves), and if they're in game, log off? Do they enjoy losing most of the time with very little chance of success?


    If someone is a better player than I am, say in Battlefield, I'll wait until he's engaged with someone else and sneak up behind him and knife him.  According to some here that would be considered unfair and not true PvP - but given that I'm not a hyper-caffeinated twitch monkey - it is really my only option.

    On my side of the aisle we call it 'teamwork'.
    AlBQuirky
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member UncommonPosts: 195
    Ungood said:
    I expressed my feelings on it.. you all came in and whined like children that I was wrong but could not find anything outside a 15 year old decaying dinosaur to back up your claims, and then cried like a bunch of impotent seniors at the rec center saying that it was all somehow my fault.

    On top of derailing all my efforts to have a legit discussion with the few posters that weren't being insufferable trolls.

    Just to recap what really went down.
    No, you expressed your opinion, then argued with everyone who had an opinion that differed with weird analogies and absolutes. You then try to play the victim as a person who just "expressed his feelings". 

    That's what really went down.

    Seriously though... It's not like you can't go back and read the posts.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    I expressed my feelings on it.. you all came in and whined like children that I was wrong but could not find anything outside a 15 year old decaying dinosaur to back up your claims, and then cried like a bunch of impotent seniors at the rec center saying that it was all somehow my fault.

    On top of derailing all my efforts to have a legit discussion with the few posters that weren't being insufferable trolls.

    Just to recap what really went down.
    No, you expressed your opinion, then argued with everyone who had an opinion that differed with weird analogies and absolutes. You then try to play the victim as a person who just "expressed his feelings". 

    That's what really went down.

    Seriously though... It's not like you can't go back and read the posts.
    I can, have and did.. you might want to pull your head out of your rectum and do the same.
    Slapshot1188EponyxDamor
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,940
    edited February 12
    I just started a PvP character in LoA.  He’s not going to be equal to some GM mage with all decked out equipment.  That’s OK.

    Hes going to use Piercing(Kryss), wear Light Armor, get some skill in Healing and Vigor and Blocking(shield).  Do not really care if another skill mix is “better”.  I will pick my fights and have fun anyhow.

    AlBQuirkyUngood

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    I just started a PvP character in LoA.  He’s not going to be equal to some GM mage with all decked out equipment.  That’s OK.

    Hes going to use Piercing(Kryss), wear Light Armor, get some skill in Healing and Vigor and Blocking(shield).  Do not really care if another skill mix is “better”.  I will pick my fights and have fun anyhow.

    I just got LOA and created an archer.
    I played for about 1/2 hr. and quit.
    I figure I'll play it every here and again - it isn't half bad.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Imho in PvP balance is everything.
    As Ungood already stated it is about who is the better player.
    Unbalanced PvP leads to boring gameplay as everyone plays the same few op builds and weaker player have even less chance because pro gamers also adapt faster to new fotm builds (as well as the play style as the equip to play it).

    In PvE I have the opinion that Balance kills the fun.
    PvE is all about living in an alternative world and here I want to have diversity. If everybody runs around with the sword of dragon slaying it is boring. Even if it is a few hundred.

    Of course this makes balancing PvPvE games much harder and here I prefer systems like GW1 and Mortal where the game is pretty balanced in terms of power creep (where the difference between best weapons and worst is only a small percentage and the HP difference is small)

    Overall this is the best approach imo.
    The magic sword is also only a sword in the end and although it is much sharper and durable, in the end it kills you not much faster than a rusty one


    You will discover that the premise of a better player winning in PvP is somewhat of an unpopular opinion on these forums, which is rather odd, because the term PvP means "Player vs Player" so, it should be self evident that the better player would win, but that is not the case here.

    As for what the win condition is, or what skill set is required to win, that is based on the game, same as the PvE content, and a slew of other things.

    My feelings is, that I treat all games the same in that regard, If that is not what you want to play, than don't play it. I have stopped PvE raiding, because I don't want to put up with the BS surrounding it, if a game has Raids, I don't play it, and move on with my life.

    But you will find people on these forums that will make it off that only their idea of what a win condition should exist, hence the crying about reflexes, and coordination, being the set skills in some PvP games. The reality is, that is what the game set as being the skill set needed to win, that is what it takes, deal with it or don't play. Just like some MMO's that allow open world PvP and allow players to vastly out gear and over level other players, grinding their way to power as opposed to possessing any direct skills.

    Now, personally, I do consider those games PvP as they are in reality Toon vs Toon. I also do not play them, because I disagree with their entire premise, but, you will see that many here not only love that kind of game (Which should warn you about where they are on the PvP skill set) and believe that is the only way PvP should be played.

    Take that as you will, with this discussion.
    Slapshot1188EponyxDamor
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    AlBQuirky said:
    This is an awesome post! It makes me wonder why players NOT at the top ("There can be only one!") log in everyday? They have very little chance of winning, unless they only fight worse players than themselves.
    Let me ask you a question. Do you quit a game if you are not the best at it? The game itself does not matter, but when you get into the game, and realize that there are players that are simply better at this game than you will ever be, do you quit?

    The moment you realize that you will not be among the top 1% of the players in that game, do you Just pack it up and go home, play some other game that you can be the best at? 

    This kinda reminds me of other discussions when players talk about Challenge in PvE games, and some players, that challenge is beyond, and you will often hear "But you can do other things", or "Just because you can't have everything is no reason to quit that's very petty" and the ever popular "Shouldn't the better players get something too" often with cries that people should not have access to everything in the game, that there should be rewards for skill, time investment, and the like, for the better players.

    I believe in those discussions, you have supported the idea of challenge in PvE games, for there to be things for the better players.

    And now.. you are wondering why the "Non Best" players in a PvP game wouldn't quit.. I guess for the same reasons why the non-best players in a PvE game don't quit.

    Unless.. of course, you are the kind of player that unless you are the best, you quit, then I suppose you rightfully wouldn't understand.
    Slapshot1188
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member UncommonPosts: 195
    Ungood said:
    I can, have and did.. you might want to pull your head out of your rectum and do the same.
    I did.  You stated your opinion then argued with everyone who had an opposing opinion.  If you actually went back and read, you would see this.
    Slapshot1188
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Ungood said:
    I can, have and did.. you might want to pull your head out of your rectum and do the same.
    I did.  You stated your opinion then argued with everyone who had an opposing opinion.  If you actually went back and read, you would see this.
    Well, it seems you can't read.. should have pulled your head out of your rectum first, I only responded to people that tried to tell me I was wrong first.. But.. hey.. don't let facts get in the way your delusions.
    Slapshot1188
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Ungood said:Which should warn you about where they are on the PvP skill set.
    For me this attitude is the biggest turn off with the PvP community.
    The casual dismissal of players because of ability is an attitude I cannot condone.

    You shouldn't listen to that person's opinion because they're obviously scrubs.

    ^--- Wow, just wow.
    Slapshot1188
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    edited February 12
    Ungood said:

    And now.. you are wondering why the "Non Best" players in a PvP game wouldn't quit.. I guess for the same reasons why the non-best players in a PvE game don't quit.

    Because in the PvE world you can group up or select different challenges based on your preferences without the monsters filling the forums with posts about balance issues or rage quitting because you used scrub tactics.

    It is odd that person would be against options/variety in PvP as well.

    I don't know how someone enjoying unbalanced RvR hurts you personally or why someone would rage against it or look down on those players.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:Which should warn you about where they are on the PvP skill set.
    For me this attitude is the biggest turn off with the PvP community.
    The casual dismissal of players because of ability is an attitude I cannot condone.

    You shouldn't listen to that person's opinion because they're obviously scrubs.

    ^--- Wow, just wow.
    Nice Cherry Pick and Ad Homin.. goes well with your Red Herrings and Strawmen.. fits your skill level in posting.

    Here is the whole quote.
    Ungood said:

    Now, personally, I do consider those games PvP as they are in reality Toon vs Toon. I also do not play them, because I disagree with their entire premise, but, you will see that many here not only love that kind of game (Which should warn you about where they are on the PvP skill set) and believe that is the only way PvP should be played.

    But you know.. Truth Hurts, if your PvP skills is that you need to depend on your Toon Overpowering your Opponent to Win for you.. you are not someone that should be talking about the merits of what makes a good PvP game.

    That's just truth.
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Ungood said:

    But you know.. Truth Hurts, if your PvP skills is that you need to depend on your Toon Overpowering your Opponent to Win for you.. you are not someone that should be talking about the merits of what makes a good PvP game.

    That's just truth.
    I'm surprised you believe the context did anything for you there.

    I've maintained throughout this thread:
    1: That person should be able to play whatever style of PvP game they enjoy.
    2: That a person may comment on any type of game balance they wish.
    3: That whatever game you play that I hope you enjoy it to its fullest - with respect.

    Here you are clarifying your degrading comment with a follow up that maintains a person such as myself shouldn't even be commenting on balance in a PvP game - that I've not the requisite skill to do that?

    Did you put all of your skill points in Ego?


  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Wargfoot said:

    It is odd that person would be against options/variety in PvP as well.

    I don't know how someone enjoying unbalanced RvR hurts you personally or why someone would rage against it or look down on those players.
    No one is stopping YOU (or others like YOU) from enjoying totally unbalanced RvR, or playing games were you need to depend on your toon to win for you, in fact, IIRC many of those games still exist. Play them till your fingers bleed and eyes fall out for all I care.. have the fun of your life in them. I wish you well and many hours of fun. 

    But keep in mind while no one is stopping you from playing them... not even me.. very few will join you, and yet again... not even me.

    and the insults go both ways.. don't play victim with me, after all your insults about how I must be a simpleton player.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,940
    Groundhog Day alert!
    Wargfoot

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    This thread has at least another 3 pages of tread left on the tires.
    WargfootUngood

    image
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Ungood said:

    No one is stopping YOU (or others like YOU) from enjoying totally unbalanced RvR, or playing games were you need to depend on your toon to win for you, in fact, IIRC many of those games still exist. Play them till your fingers bleed and eyes fall out for all I care.. have the fun of your life in them. I wish you well and many hours of fun. 

    But keep in mind while no one is stopping you from playing them... not even me.. very few will join you, and yet again... not even me.

    and the insults go both ways.. don't play victim with me, after all your insults about how I must be a simpleton player.
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

    --------------------------------

    Edited to Add:
    I'd like to apologize to the community.  I didn't thoroughly read the TOS for this website.  I found a bit of verbiage in there that shows that I'm clearly in the wrong.  Let me quote the relevant section here:

    "If a user finds the occasion to comment on in-game balance and that game is a PvP title, then the user must first demonstrate the ability to WTF PWN (sic) a majority of the other players or said users opinions will be considered worthless - may his eyes bleed playing whatever sorry excuse for PvP he embraces.".

    It goes on for another 15 paragraphs calling down curses on the offender.
    Again, my apologies to the community, the staff, the moderators.
    MadFrenchieSlapshot1188Ungood
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,940
    This thread has at least another 3 pages of tread left on the tires.
    I dunno... I think he’s tried the GroungHog Day routine for discredited info 3 times now.  I think we just have 1 more to go.   I’m betting less than 3 pages. Especially if people stop tossing him crumbs.

    Remember WOPR: The only winning move is not to play. 
    Ungood

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    The only Groundhog routine going on, is this annoying troll popping in from time to time talking about a Groundhog.


  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
    If you keep practicing you'll get there.
    In your "Fun" thread I think you're doing a good job.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
    If you keep practicing you'll get there.
    In your "Fun" thread I think you're doing a good job.
    Well, Thank you for not being a deplorable Troll in that thread at least.
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
    If you keep practicing you'll get there.
    In your "Fun" thread I think you're doing a good job.
    Well, Thank you for not being a deplorable Troll in that thread at least.
    Why does the phrase, "I know you are, but what am I?" come to mind?
    As it turns out, I did  learn everything I needed to know in Kindergarten.
    Slapshot1188EponyxDamor
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
    If you keep practicing you'll get there.
    In your "Fun" thread I think you're doing a good job.
    Well, Thank you for not being a deplorable Troll in that thread at least.
    Why does the phrase, "I know you are, but what am I?" come to mind?
    As it turns out, I did  learn everything I needed to know in Kindergarten.
    That is obvious, as it seems you never left.

    Are we done now, or do you have a few more lame troll posts left in you? If you keep this trolling up long enough, we will be graced by that other Troll that keeps talking about groundhogs.
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 243
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Ungood said:
    Wargfoot said:
    Am I allowed to respond to this or do I have to best you in a PvP match before my opinion may be considered worthy?

     I'd settle for just not being a troll.
    If you keep practicing you'll get there.
    In your "Fun" thread I think you're doing a good job.
    Well, Thank you for not being a deplorable Troll in that thread at least.
    Why does the phrase, "I know you are, but what am I?" come to mind?
    As it turns out, I did  learn everything I needed to know in Kindergarten.
    That is obvious, as it seems you never left.

    Are we done now, or do you have a few more lame troll posts left in you? If you keep this trolling up long enough, we will be graced by that other Troll that keeps talking about groundhogs.
    Lame troll posts?
    Okay, that hurt a little bit.

    I thought the part where you talked about not being a troll - and I intentionally misread it as you talking about yourself not being a troll - was some of my finer work, and at the very least, wasn't lame.

    You've labeled some of the finest work on this forum as lame.

    Just for that, I hope the groundhog guy comes back.

    There, I said it.

    Slapshot1188
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