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Is Balance All That?

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  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    But.. yet.. somehow.. I am the problem here.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
     You will all be better off you learn your lesson and be thru with ....


    He called me WakerFool - I don't know what that means, exactly, but I'm pretty upset about it.
    ProTip: I don't think giving the Uni-goober a theme song is going to help with the ego issues.
    Nogoods  attempts at sarcasm are as weak as his semantic, goal post moving and excuses ..just ignore it
    Hey.. Suckchien is back! Welcome back Suckchien! 
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 6,874
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
     You will all be better off you learn your lesson and be thru with ....


    He called me WakerFool - I don't know what that means, exactly, but I'm pretty upset about it.
    ProTip: I don't think giving the Uni-goober a theme song is going to help with the ego issues.
    Nogoods  attempts at sarcasm are as weak as his semantic, goal post moving and excuses ..just ignore it
    Hey.. Suckchien is back! Welcome back Suckchien! 
    see what i mean , its like being attacked by a third grader ..lmfao ..

     We realize you are working with everything God gave you .. but try harder.
    EponyxDamor
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
     You will all be better off you learn your lesson and be thru with ....


    He called me WakerFool - I don't know what that means, exactly, but I'm pretty upset about it.
    ProTip: I don't think giving the Uni-goober a theme song is going to help with the ego issues.
    Nogoods  attempts at sarcasm are as weak as his semantic, goal post moving and excuses ..just ignore it
    Hey.. Suckchien is back! Welcome back Suckchien! 
    I feel like you put more effort into his name than you did mine.
    I probably shouldn't go public with my feelings, but it does kind of hurt a little bit.

    I also feel like Uni-goober is somewhat labored.
    Ungoob seems a better fit but isn't as funny.

    Your thoughts?
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
     You will all be better off you learn your lesson and be thru with ....


    He called me WakerFool - I don't know what that means, exactly, but I'm pretty upset about it.
    ProTip: I don't think giving the Uni-goober a theme song is going to help with the ego issues.
    Nogoods  attempts at sarcasm are as weak as his semantic, goal post moving and excuses ..just ignore it
    Hey.. Suckchien is back! Welcome back Suckchien! 
    see what i mean , its like being attacked by a third grader ..lmfao ..

     We realize you are working with everything God gave you .. but try harder.
    I thought Suckchien was kind of good.

    I would have probably shortened it to Suckin', but then I put quite a few skill points into forum PvP.
    ultimateduck
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Does anyone else want to talk about how imbalance can create opportunities for creativity, vareity, and richer gameplay?  I feel like we've reached a consensus so the thread is probably about done.
    Cryomatrix
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,069
    My thoughts are that you are letting him drag you through the depths of madness instead of ignoring him and continuing the discussion.
    EponyxDamorWargfootYVUngood

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Someone give me a nickname riffed off my username!

    I feel left out. :(
    If "Mad" and "Frenchie" combined isn't the most thorough take down ever then I don't know what would be.

    BadFrenchie
    MadHenny
    SadWenchie

    I'd call you the Uni-goober but that one has been claimed.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9GxdK2ZNRQ/T3ohz-vs_aI/AAAAAAAAD40/w-p5At3SpZs/s1600/Unabomber-Ted-Kaczynskisketch.jpg
    Lmao, I agree.  That was part of the reason I picked the name originally (I thought it was a ridiculous counterpoint to names like "xXHeadshotKillerXx" that were so common at the time).
    WargfootYV

    image
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    My thoughts are that you are letting him drag you through the depths of madness instead of ignoring him and continuing the discussion.
    I think most of us agreed early on that having the option to pick and choose abilities, even if that introduced some imbalance, was more entertaining than cookie cutter classes/mirrored classes that limit options in the name of balance.

    Going beyond that, as I noted early on it has been painful to see the constant rotation of FOTM builds/store purchases all in the name of keeping up with the latest developer attempt to balance - leaving some of us wondering if maybe less time on that, and more time on something fun might be the better use of resources.

    Oddly enough, the developer emphasis on chasing this unicorn (in mmorpgs) has left the player base believing that they deserve balance - and every loss is attributed to a lack of having balance - with little effort (or resources available) to explore other methods of securing a win. 

    In the UO example I posted: I didn't play games for a long time because UO was the only game that allowed you to drop stuff on the ground.  I found that flexibility more alluring than 'balance'.

    It would be refreshing to see a developer say, "The scrapper class isn't meant to be balanced,  it exists to provide a challenge to those who want it.  If you don't like the class, don't play it." 
    Steelhelm
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Someone give me a nickname riffed off my username!

    I feel left out. :(
    If "Mad" and "Frenchie" combined isn't the most thorough take down ever then I don't know what would be.

    BadFrenchie
    MadHenny
    SadWenchie

    I'd call you the Uni-goober but that one has been claimed.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9GxdK2ZNRQ/T3ohz-vs_aI/AAAAAAAAD40/w-p5At3SpZs/s1600/Unabomber-Ted-Kaczynskisketch.jpg
    Lmao, I agree.  That was part of the reason I picked the name originally (I thought it was a ridiculous counterpoint to names like "xXHeadshotKillerXx" that were so common at the time).
    I remember when names like P|mpMa5t3r were popular.
    I'm glad we've MadFrenchie's running around instead.
    MadFrenchie
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,069
    My thoughts are that you are letting him drag you through the depths of madness instead of ignoring him and continuing the discussion.
    I think most of us agreed early on that having the option to pick and choose abilities, even if that introduced some imbalance, was more entertaining than cookie cutter classes/mirrored classes that limit options in the name of balance.

    Going beyond that, as I noted early on it has been painful to see the constant rotation of FOTM builds/store purchases all in the name of keeping up with the latest developer attempt to balance - leaving some of us wondering if maybe less time on that, and more time on something fun might be the better use of resources.

    Oddly enough, the developer emphasis on chasing this unicorn (in mmorpgs) has left the player base believing that they deserve balance - and every loss is attributed to a lack of having balance - with little effort (or resources available) to explore other methods of securing a win. 

    In the UO example I posted: I didn't play games for a long time because UO was the only game that allowed you to drop stuff on the ground.  I found that flexibility more alluring than 'balance'.

    It would be refreshing to see a developer say, "The scrapper class isn't meant to be balanced,  it exists to provide a challenge to those who want it.  If you don't like the class, don't play it." 
    Both CU and Crowfall seem to have a lot of customization within each class.  I hope it proves  to be fun
    EponyxDamorWargfootYV

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261

    Both CU and Crowfall seem to have a lot of customization within each class.  I hope it proves  to be fun
    RvR never really interested me.

    It is basically forced grouping (not a bad thing), but I'm usually the weak link in a party and getting it rubbed in my face through multiple failures of the group is more than I can take.
    ultimateduck
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,069

    Both CU and Crowfall seem to have a lot of customization within each class.  I hope it proves  to be fun
    RvR never really interested me.

    It is basically forced grouping (not a bad thing), but I'm usually the weak link in a party and getting it rubbed in my face through multiple failures of the group is more than I can take.
    Crowfall will have many campaign types and RvR is only one of them.  CU... yeah that’s all RvR 

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261

    Both CU and Crowfall seem to have a lot of customization within each class.  I hope it proves  to be fun
    RvR never really interested me.

    It is basically forced grouping (not a bad thing), but I'm usually the weak link in a party and getting it rubbed in my face through multiple failures of the group is more than I can take.
    Crowfall will have many campaign types and RvR is only one of them.  CU... yeah that’s all RvR 
    Crowfall looks interesting (more so than CU).

    I remember when I joined Shadowbane.  I was tired of the griefing I'd endured in other games so I thought to myself, "I'm going to find the biggest group of assholes in the game and join them."  The thinking was that if I was one of them I'd be safer.

    It worked...at first, until someone dropped a bane on our capital - which was one of the most thrilling memories I have of online gaming.  The lag was too bad to do anything and my entire clan was wiped out.  So much for being safe with the bad guys.

    What loses me in Crowfall is that the game can be won - dunno if I want to start over like that.
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    I'm to the point where I want other people around in game, and don't even mind the occasional PK, but for 90% of the time I don't want anyone messing with me at all.  I don't want to have to group but it is nice to be part of a living, breathing world.
    MadFrenchie
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,069

    Both CU and Crowfall seem to have a lot of customization within each class.  I hope it proves  to be fun
    RvR never really interested me.

    It is basically forced grouping (not a bad thing), but I'm usually the weak link in a party and getting it rubbed in my face through multiple failures of the group is more than I can take.
    Crowfall will have many campaign types and RvR is only one of them.  CU... yeah that’s all RvR 
    Crowfall looks interesting (more so than CU).

    I remember when I joined Shadowbane.  I was tired of the griefing I'd endured in other games so I thought to myself, "I'm going to find the biggest group of assholes in the game and join them."  The thinking was that if I was one of them I'd be safer.

    It worked...at first, until someone dropped a bane on our capital - which was one of the most thrilling memories I have of online gaming.  The lag was too bad to do anything and my entire clan was wiped out.  So much for being safe with the bad guys.

    What loses me in Crowfall is that the game can be won - dunno if I want to start over like that.
    What group were you with?

    I loved Shadowbane.  It just struggled to keep people once one group dominated... so this is their answer. It will be interesting to see how long most campaigns are.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261

    What group were you with?

    I loved Shadowbane.  It just struggled to keep people once one group dominated... so this is their answer. It will be interesting to see how long most campaigns are.
    Initially I was with "Denied", which is the best asshole name for a clan ever.
    I was with them for 3 days before they were wiped.

    After that I was with The Tribunal, which was a temple group of serious role players.
    I was a thief in a lawful good clan which meant my own clan killed me more than other players ever managed to do.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Scorchien said:
    Ungood said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
     You will all be better off you learn your lesson and be thru with ....


    He called me WakerFool - I don't know what that means, exactly, but I'm pretty upset about it.
    ProTip: I don't think giving the Uni-goober a theme song is going to help with the ego issues.
    Nogoods  attempts at sarcasm are as weak as his semantic, goal post moving and excuses ..just ignore it
    Hey.. Suckchien is back! Welcome back Suckchien! 
    see what i mean , its like being attacked by a third grader ..lmfao ..

     We realize you are working with everything God gave you .. but try harder.
    Welcome to 3rd grade, with that "Nogood" remark.. you will fit right in. 
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    AlBQuirky said:
    Here is the thing. We start off with the basic idea that Fair is Fun.

    Now there is only so many factors that a game company can apply to make the game fun in this regard.

    For example, In a team based game, there is going to be a huge amount of inherent "Unfairness" and this will take the form of the tactics abilities and teamwork skills of each team, as well as the individual skills of each player. Now, a game really can't control these things, as that is part of the player themselves.

    But even if they can't control some of those things, there are things the developer can and does have complete control over. Which is the game Environment, and ultimately the fairness of the "Puppet" (Build/Character).

    So it would behoove them to try their best to build a sense of fairness for the things they can control, and allow the players to build the rest of the challenge for the teams they are on.

    I get that in many cases it can depend on the game, like I would GW2 much more leniency with Balance issues in their PvP and RvR game modes, because they are predominately a PvE game with some PvP tacked on for the people that like that, their PvP and RvR feel like "Check Box" content. At the same time, say an upcoming game like Crowfall for example, where the game is being built from the ground up, and advertised  to be a Team vs Team game, as such their balance, whatever system they opt to use, should be spot on and feeling fair. 

    In short, no. I don't give a free pass to a game, simply because they call themselves an MMO.

    Why do you?
    It's difficult to get past your opening statement, "Fair is fun." According to whom?

    Who defines fun and fair? Anyone who wins swears it's "fair." Those who lose blame everything but themselves. "Fun" is also a very subjective term, defined by the utterer, not a general consensus.

    Your opening statement takes 2 subjective words and tries to make them "rules."

    Is this scenario "fair", to you?
    - You and I meet in PvP of some kind. Your skill far outweighs my own, so in a "balanced" system, is this a fair fight? How about an unbalanced system where I have the advantage and you're still kicking my ass around?

    PvP often engages in "rankings" of some kind. Is it "fair" a top ten player can beat around a player in the 100-200 rank area? And shock of all shocks, that lower ranked player may even find that match "fun" as they learn from their defeat, improving their own skills.

    Tell me, please, where is this "fairness" you claim to desire? And how does "balance" bring it to life? You have proclaimed that you are a top-notch PvP contender. You at least have the right attitude for it :)

    Lastly, I don't "give MMOs a pass." I simply don't expect balance. They are NOT PvP games to me. They are social, crafting, leveling, exploration games to me. In my experience, PvP is rarely social.

    PS: I find interesting that you look for "fair & balanced" in mechanics, but turn a blind eye to player skill.
    Ya know, this would be a great discussion, something we could discuss the merits of how balance works in a game, even the various kinds of balance and how it affects and augments player skills... too bad this thread has become food for trolls.


    Slapshot1188
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,069

    What group were you with?

    I loved Shadowbane.  It just struggled to keep people once one group dominated... so this is their answer. It will be interesting to see how long most campaigns are.
    Initially I was with "Denied", which is the best asshole name for a clan ever.
    I was with them for 3 days before they were wiped.

    After that I was with The Tribunal, which was a temple group of serious role players.
    I was a thief in a lawful good clan which meant my own clan killed me more than other players ever managed to do.
    Yeah at the start we wanted to be “evil” so we joined Ebonlore but that didn’t last a week.  We ended up making our own clan and subbing under a nation.  I don’t remember  exactly but it was Free something.   Then we had an alt guild named Thieves Bane that I talked about earlier.  We also made an all Inquisitor Guild.  Don’t remember the name of it but we would just stand together and aoe and then transfer health to mana and then heal and aoe again.  Alone, the Inquisitor was a pretty helpless class, but in a group of 5-10 it was crazy. We just made piles of bodies.

    Best part of that one was when the devs made an event around a demonlord invading.  I did some light role playing and joined his forces as his apostle.  They actually let me lead some of the invasion force as the GM/demonlord (a huge thing taller than the walls of the cities) attacked and razed a city.  Of course it was inevitable that the “good guys” would eventually rally and win, which included killing me... but damn was that fun.
    Vermillion_Raventhal

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Member UncommonPosts: 246
    Ungood said:
    Ya know, this would be a great discussion, something we could discuss the merits of how balance works in a game, even the various kinds of balance and how it affects and augments player skills... too bad this thread has become food for trolls.


    Said the guy who originally started trolling on this thread with his "I'm right, everyone else is ignorant and wrong" approach.
    WargfootSlapshot1188
  • Morgenes83Morgenes83 Member UncommonPosts: 122
    Imho in PvP balance is everything.
    As Ungood already stated it is about who is the better player.
    Unbalanced PvP leads to boring gameplay as everyone plays the same few op builds and weaker player have even less chance because pro gamers also adapt faster to new fotm builds (as well as the play style as the equip to play it).

    In PvE I have the opinion that Balance kills the fun.
    PvE is all about living in an alternative world and here I want to have diversity. If everybody runs around with the sword of dragon slaying it is boring. Even if it is a few hundred.

    Of course this makes balancing PvPvE games much harder and here I prefer systems like GW1 and Mortal where the game is pretty balanced in terms of power creep (where the difference between best weapons and worst is only a small percentage and the HP difference is small)

    Overall this is the best approach imo.
    The magic sword is also only a sword in the end and although it is much sharper and durable, in the end it kills you not much faster than a rusty one


    Ungood

    1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO 

    Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    edited February 12
    Ungood said:
    Ya know, this would be a great discussion, something we could discuss the merits of how balance works in a game, even the various kinds of balance and how it affects and augments player skills... too bad this thread has become food for trolls.


    Said the guy who originally started trolling on this thread with his "I'm right, everyone else is ignorant and wrong" approach.
    I expressed my feelings on it.. you all came in and whined like children that I was wrong but could not find anything outside a 15 year old decaying dinosaur to back up your claims, and then cried like a bunch of impotent seniors at the rec center saying that it was all somehow my fault.

    On top of derailing all my efforts to have a legit discussion with the few posters that weren't being insufferable trolls.

    Just to recap what really went down.
    Slapshot1188
  • WargfootWargfoot Member UncommonPosts: 248
    Imho in PvP balance is everything.
    As Ungood already stated it is about who is the better player.
    Unbalanced PvP leads to boring gameplay as everyone plays the same few op builds and weaker player have even less chance because pro gamers also adapt faster to new fotm builds (as well as the play style as the equip to play it).


    It is okay to have that as an opinion - even as a popular opinion.
    It gets weird when it is stated as an absolute.

    ----------

    The 'better player' mythology is an odd one to deconstruct.
    When I was in UO I had a modem vs. a few people who had T1 lines.
    They could kill me before their first attack registered on my screen.

    Was that PvP or CvC (connection vs. connection)?
    Whatever it was it had nothing to do with measuring skill level.
    How about HvH (hardware vs. hardware) - maybe I don't have the same draw distance as you?

    But for the sake of this discussion, lets set aside those devastating blows to the PvP mythology (better player nonsense) and consider a more pressing point.

    -----------

    So when you say the game measures who is the better player what you're really talking about is who has the fastest reflexes - which is a great way to win a game if you're in the top 10% for reflexes - but after we've established your dominance then what?

    Let's say you've climbed to the top of the ladder and everyone around you is worshipping your godlike reflexes, what do you expect to happen at that point?

    I see no reason to log onto a game where I'm not provided alternate ways to win - a game so shallow, so 1-dimensional, so thin as to offer only one way to victory.  A game where I'm going to lose every single time I come up against you is a game I'm probably not going to play.

    But since you've defined balance as twitch monkey vs. twitch monkey - a category in which I lose - I've no choice to abandon PvP unless I can find a game that allows me enough flexibility to work past your reflexes through either getting better gear, using the environment, using strategy, using a  group, or using some other hard won in game knowledge.

    And the moment I beat you via a means other than twitch monkey mechanics you'll claim the game has unbalanced PvP.

    ------------

    When UO was introduced there was an attempt to create a living world.  In that living world Garriot tried to create an actual simulation which meant there were tons of different ways to approach the same problem.  Many of us, even with imbalances there, find that more compelling than a dressed up arena battle which is what many games are today.

    Please take a moment to recognize the difference between a simulation and a game.
    It is why in UO, unlike many games today, you could do something as simple as dropping something on the ground.

    I think it is awesome that you like the games that you like.  Enjoy them, balance and all.

    For some of us; however, the press towards balance has resulted in extremely limited game worlds, huge wastes of developer time, constant complaining on the forums, and an entitlement mindset among gamers that a victory and 'fair chance' must be handed to them with bow on it or they'll take their toys and go home - such that anymore one MMORPG is indistinguishable from the last.


    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 5,428
    Wargfoot said:
    Imho in PvP balance is everything.
    As Ungood already stated it is about who is the better player.
    Unbalanced PvP leads to boring gameplay as everyone plays the same few op builds and weaker player have even less chance because pro gamers also adapt faster to new fotm builds (as well as the play style as the equip to play it).


    It is okay to have that as an opinion - even as a popular opinion.
    It gets weird when it is stated as an absolute.

    ----------

    The 'better player' mythology is an odd one to deconstruct.
    When I was in UO I had a modem vs. a few people who had T1 lines.
    They could kill me before their first attack registered on my screen.

    Was that PvP or CvC (connection vs. connection)?
    Whatever it was it had nothing to do with measuring skill level.
    How about HvH (hardware vs. hardware) - maybe I don't have the same draw distance as you?

    But for the sake of this discussion, lets set aside those devastating blows to the PvP mythology (better player nonsense) and consider a more pressing point.

    -----------

    So when you say the game measures who is the better player what you're really talking about is who has the fastest reflexes - which is a great way to win a game if you're in the top 10% for reflexes - but after we've established your dominance then what?

    Let's say you've climbed to the top of the ladder and everyone around you is worshipping your godlike reflexes, what do you expect to happen at that point?

    I see no reason to log onto a game where I'm not provided alternate ways to win - a game so shallow, so 1-dimensional, so thin as to offer only one way to victory.  A game where I'm going to lose every single time I come up against you is a game I'm probably not going to play.

    But since you've defined balance as twitch monkey vs. twitch monkey - a category in which I lose - I've no choice to abandon PvP unless I can find a game that allows me enough flexibility to work past your reflexes through either getting better gear, using the environment, using strategy, using a  group, or using some other hard won in game knowledge.

    And the moment I beat you via a means other than twitch monkey mechanics you'll claim the game has unbalanced PvP.

    ------------

    When UO was introduced there was an attempt to create a living world.  In that living world Garriot tried to create an actual simulation which meant there were tons of different ways to approach the same problem.  Many of us, even with imbalances there, find that more compelling than a dressed up arena battle which is what many games are today.

    Please take a moment to recognize the difference between a simulation and a game.
    It is why in UO, unlike many games today, you could do something as simple as dropping something on the ground.

    I think it is awesome that you like the games that you like.  Enjoy them, balance and all.

    For some of us; however, the press towards balance has resulted in extremely limited game worlds, huge wastes of developer time, constant complaining on the forums, and an entitlement mindset among gamers that a victory and 'fair chance' must be handed to them with bow on it or they'll take their toys and go home - such that anymore one MMORPG is indistinguishable from the last.


    This is an awesome post! It makes me wonder why players NOT at the top ("There can be only one!") log in everyday? They have very little chance of winning, unless they only fight worse players than themselves.

    Do they log in, look to see who else is on (better players than themselves), and if they're in game, log off? Do they enjoy losing most of the time with very little chance of success?

    It boggles my mind when players talk about "best player" standards. This is a HUGE reason I despise PvP in the first place. It's a friggin' GAME! Pixels on a screen. You sit in a chair and click a mouse, push a button, and/or hit keys on a keyboard. What is there is brag about?
    WargfootChildoftheShadows

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


    (And now Burger King has MEATLESS burgers!)

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