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Is Balance All That?

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  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    This is is a blatant lie that people regurgitate.. but is every character in LoL the same? Is every Character in Overwatch the Same? 

    Why do people cling to this falsehood when the truth is constantly and successfully staring them in the face?
    Overwatch characters aren't balanced for 1v1, and most are situationally more powerful than others.


    Doomfist blows on the open, but get caught by him in a small room with four walls, and he'll one-shot half the cast.
    According to Uni-goober, that game isn't balanced.
    Why would you support an unbalanced game, Frenchie?

    Are you a bad person in real life or do you just not like to have fun?
    ultimateduckMadFrenchie
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,101
    edited February 7
    Ungood said:

    So I'll ask you, please explain your stand and enlighten me as to why should a FPS or Battle Royal, need to worry about balance and an MMO should not.. when they are both PvP games?
    There you did it again.
    You took a statement such as "Is balance all that?" and replaced with a weird absolute "MMOs don't need to worry about balance."

    Your questions aren't getting answered because they have nothing to do with what others are discussing.  Throwing up strawmen representations of other people's points isn't a discussion.


    lets try this again, as you not only dropped the ball, you tossed a Red Herring.

    I'll make it easier for you.

    Ungood said:

    Because, see for me, if the fight does not feel fair, it is not fun, and it does not suddenly become fun because I called the game an MMO, and I can bake a cake and grind PvE content for several hundred hours for gear, so, I guess what I am asking is, why does it become fun for you?
    Can you even answer this one simple question?
    Post edited by Ungood on
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
    Currently Playing Eternal Crusade, because killing people with a Chainsword is more fun then a sniper rifle.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,101
    Ungood said:
    The sad reality is that if you want "balance" or "fair", then you are essentially going to have one class, one weapon, one spec.....just named different things to give the illusion of choice.
    This is is a blatant lie that people regurgitate.. but is every character in LoL the same? Is every Character in Overwatch the Same? 

    Why do people cling to this falsehood when the truth is constantly and successfully staring them in the face?
    Overwatch characters aren't balanced for 1v1, and most are situationally more powerful than others.


    Doomfist blows on the open, but get caught by him in a small room with four walls, and he'll one-shot half the cast.
    According to Uni-goober, that game isn't balanced.
    Why would you support an unbalanced game, Frenchie?

    Are you a bad person in real life or do you just not like to have fun?
    Are we really going to devolve to name calling Wankerfoot?
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
    Currently Playing Eternal Crusade, because killing people with a Chainsword is more fun then a sniper rifle.
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Erie, COMember UncommonPosts: 138
    You can not give an answer that Ungood will accept because accepting it would be an admission that he was wrong, and that is not going to happen. 

    Ungood, when not just someone, but everyone who has replied, tells you the same thing over and over and you continue to show an inability to even come close to grasping the concept, what choice do people have other than call you a name that describes how you are acting.

    Example: I told you at least three times that people like you have ruined MMOs and because of that, there aren't any good new MMOs to play.  You continued to ask me to give you an example of a good MMO that wasn't old, acting like you won because I couldn't.  You were so lost in your own self proclaimed superiority that you were unable to grasp the concept of "people like you have ruined MMOs and because of that, there aren't any good new MMOs to play". To me, "argumentative idiot" accurately fits the description of that person.  Now, I wouldn't never call you an argumentative idiot, that would be rude... but I'm thinking it.

    To help you understand, when a kid throws a tantrum in the store because his mom won't buy him candy, are people "devolving" when they call the kid a brat or are they stating fact?  Don't be so surprised when people here resort to calling you a colorful yet factual nickname.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 10,258
    You can not give an answer that Ungood will accept because accepting it would be an admission that he was wrong, and that is not going to happen. 

    Ungood, when not just someone, but everyone who has replied, tells you the same thing over and over and you continue to show an inability to even come close to grasping the concept, what choice do people have other than call you a name that describes how you are acting.

    Example: I told you at least three times that people like you have ruined MMOs and because of that, there aren't any good new MMOs to play.  You continued to ask me to give you an example of a good MMO that wasn't old, acting like you won because I couldn't.  You were so lost in your own self proclaimed superiority that you were unable to grasp the concept of "people like you have ruined MMOs and because of that, there aren't any good new MMOs to play". To me, "argumentative idiot" accurately fits the description of that person.  Now, I wouldn't never call you an argumentative idiot, that would be rude... but I'm thinking it.

    To help you understand, when a kid throws a tantrum in the store because his mom won't buy him candy, are people "devolving" when they call the kid a brat or are they stating fact?  Don't be so surprised when people here resort to calling you a colorful yet factual nickname.

    I warned you guys days ago to ignore his attempts to repeatedly GroundHog Day the conversation.  
    It's like WOPR said:  "The only winning move is not to play"

    Or to relate to your example:  Sometimes you just have to leave the kid crying on the floor and move on.

    So I suggest you just ignore his "input" and keep the conversation going.

    ultimateduckScorchienUngood

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Erie, COMember UncommonPosts: 138
    The old man in me keeps hoping I can talk some sense into him.  I'm starting to realize that may not be possible.

    What it has done is made me really want to resub DAoC or get into one of the newer old school inspired sandbox MMOs like Shroud of the Avatar or Legends of Aria.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 10,258
    The old man in me keeps hoping I can talk some sense into him.  I'm starting to realize that may not be possible.

    What it has done is made me really want to resub DAoC or get into one of the newer old school inspired sandbox MMOs like Shroud of the Avatar or Legends of Aria.

    Yeah.. my friends are still in Aria but I can't seem to get myself to login.  I need some more goals there.

    I go back to DAoC every few years... I still get a thrill from that introduction music :)
      
    ultimateduck

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • ultimateduckultimateduck Erie, COMember UncommonPosts: 138
    Last time I resubed DAoC I called my brother and played the intro music... he resubed.
    Slapshot1188
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,101
    I only post on these forums while I am playing Eternal Crusade, because it gives me something to do in between waiting for the match to start.

    I just had an epic game. We were all battling over point B, and both sides were throwing our everything at this point. Clock was ticking down, and it all came down to this point. The heavies on both sides were laying down constant fire, and anyone caught in the crossfire, friend or foe, was getting shot down in second, the cap was started, and the timer ran out.. an interrupt would win the game at this, and the bodies of all the brave souls trying to stop the cap littered the floor, as well as those trying to defend the point and getting caught in the bullstorm hell... it was just an epic battle.

    I play Eternal Crusade for those kinds of fight, those tight, right down to the wire fights. I never see that in unbalanced games, that thrill, that just adrenaline surge from a hard won fight.

    So.. Yah.. gonna go back to my crappy Eternal Crusade.. and let you all play your.. well.. whatever.

    Just because you want boring combat does not make you bad people.
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
    Currently Playing Eternal Crusade, because killing people with a Chainsword is more fun then a sniper rifle.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,101
    Slapshot1188 said:
    I warned you guys days ago to ignore his attempts to repeatedly GroundHog Day the conversation.  
    You also said you were going to stop talking about me.. we can all see how well that went.

    Pity you can't do what you want others to do.. you know.. Do what you say you will do.. and all that jazz. ;)
    Slapshot1188
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
    Currently Playing Eternal Crusade, because killing people with a Chainsword is more fun then a sniper rifle.
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Cambridge, MAMember RarePosts: 2,173
    I don't think an MMORPG should bother balancing classes . . . but they should balance roles :)

    It's a role playing games, not all roles are equal, they are important, but not equal. But if you have 3 classes that are all different variations on healing, then they should be somewhat balanced with each other as you balance the role, not the class. ***Drops the Mic***



    AlBQuirky
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDMember EpicPosts: 3,279
    I would like to see some randomness to characters so balance isn't possible. I think it would frustrate people though. Players are too used to knowing everything and wanting to directly control their advancement. 
    WargfootYVAlBQuirky
  • ultimateduckultimateduck Erie, COMember UncommonPosts: 138
    I don't think an MMORPG should bother balancing classes . . . but they should balance roles :)

    It's a role playing games, not all roles are equal, they are important, but not equal. But if you have 3 classes that are all different variations on healing, then they should be somewhat balanced with each other as you balance the role, not the class. ***Drops the Mic***


    Sometimes roles can be mixed.  The may mez class on Albion was a Sorcerer, who also had life tap nukes and could charm mobs.  The main mez class on Hib was their speed class, the Bard, who also had heals.  The main mez class on Mid was the Healer... who was a healer.

    Realms were balanced, but even on an individual skill level, not all realms had the exact same skills available to them... yet there was balance.
    AlBQuirky
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    I would like to see some randomness to characters so balance isn't possible. I think it would frustrate people though. Players are too used to knowing everything and wanting to directly control their advancement. 
    I always thought it would be interesting to have some hidden player stats.

    For example, a character may take +20% magic damage but have a +20% chance to see hidden characters.  Have about 100 of these sorts of characteristics any two of which are randomly applied, and remain hidden, at character creation.
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAMember RarePosts: 4,668
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    Wow.. after reading the last few posts.. This was supposed to highlight the positives?

    And talk about how to enjoy unbalanced games, I can honestly say, this has made it even more clear why no one would actually want that kind of game or set up. I mean you all make it sound like these games are just breeding grounds for trolls and trash players.

    I mean, Really? Playing a class were you are basically vultures preying in the weak and wounded, that's your market pitch to sell bad balanced games?

    I mean, at least with the Shadowbane Scout idea, was a using a Rock-Paper-Scissors balance correctly, but, that was a Rock-Paper-Scissors Balance done correctly.. so.. that kinda sets the value of my point.. not any of yours.

    Well that was enlightening.
    Is that really fair to say? In an MMO, how does one balance the 4v1 gang-ups? They happen, no matter what kinds of balancing is tried.

    Did you know some players don't play any game that is not on the hardest mode possible? That some players even enjoy (OMG!) taking a gimped character and succeeding with them? Some players even view "saving games" (save scumming) as cheating. It's called challenge. I'm not a rabid fan of it, but here is where I use the term "balance." Games are most fun for me when there is a "balance" between difficult  and easy.

    "Balance" is an ever changing line drawn in the sand. 1v1 balance is NOT the same as 5v5 or 40v40 balance. Then you have PvPers (what I usually run into) that won't engage unless they have a definite advantage of any kind.

    Remember, nobody said, "Balance is awful/EVIL!" Most here are speaking about MMOs, where each character is supposed to have differing strengths and weaknesses (aka: choices) for differing play styles, not any other genre :)
    Here is the thing. We start off with the basic idea that Fair is Fun.

    Now there is only so many factors that a game company can apply to make the game fun in this regard.

    For example, In a team based game, there is going to be a huge amount of inherent "Unfairness" and this will take the form of the tactics abilities and teamwork skills of each team, as well as the individual skills of each player. Now, a game really can't control these things, as that is part of the player themselves.

    But even if they can't control some of those things, there are things the developer can and does have complete control over. Which is the game Environment, and ultimately the fairness of the "Puppet" (Build/Character).

    So it would behoove them to try their best to build a sense of fairness for the things they can control, and allow the players to build the rest of the challenge for the teams they are on.

    I get that in many cases it can depend on the game, like I would GW2 much more leniency with Balance issues in their PvP and RvR game modes, because they are predominately a PvE game with some PvP tacked on for the people that like that, their PvP and RvR feel like "Check Box" content. At the same time, say an upcoming game like Crowfall for example, where the game is being built from the ground up, and advertised  to be a Team vs Team game, as such their balance, whatever system they opt to use, should be spot on and feeling fair. 

    In short, no. I don't give a free pass to a game, simply because they call themselves an MMO.

    Why do you?
    It's difficult to get past your opening statement, "Fair is fun." According to whom?

    Who defines fun and fair? Anyone who wins swears it's "fair." Those who lose blame everything but themselves. "Fun" is also a very subjective term, defined by the utterer, not a general consensus.

    Your opening statement takes 2 subjective words and tries to make them "rules."

    Is this scenario "fair", to you?
    - You and I meet in PvP of some kind. Your skill far outweighs my own, so in a "balanced" system, is this a fair fight? How about an unbalanced system where I have the advantage and you're still kicking my ass around?

    PvP often engages in "rankings" of some kind. Is it "fair" a top ten player can beat around a player in the 100-200 rank area? And shock of all shocks, that lower ranked player may even find that match "fun" as they learn from their defeat, improving their own skills.

    Tell me, please, where is this "fairness" you claim to desire? And how does "balance" bring it to life? You have proclaimed that you are a top-notch PvP contender. You at least have the right attitude for it :)

    Lastly, I don't "give MMOs a pass." I simply don't expect balance. They are NOT PvP games to me. They are social, crafting, leveling, exploration games to me. In my experience, PvP is rarely social.

    PS: I find interesting that you look for "fair & balanced" in mechanics, but turn a blind eye to player skill.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    AlBQuirky said:

    It's difficult to get past your opening statement, "Fair is fun." According to whom?

    Uni-goober likes to make a statement that is apparently quite agreeable only to then overload the words with tons of additional meaning.   If you object to the overloaded meanings then he pulls back to "LOL, you don't think fair is a good idea?"

    Here is how it works:

    1: During the setup "Fair is Fun" is used in the typical, well understood meaning of the phrase.
    2: After the hook, "Fair is Fun" means Eternal Crusade.
    3: If you object to the new meaning, "Fair is Fun" goes back to the well understood meaning and you're mocked for not liking fair games.

    If you want the definition to "Fair is Fun" you have to look where you're at in the above scenario.  
    In the quote you grabbed above we're at Step #1 in the circle of life.
    AlBQuirkyEponyxDamor
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,101
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    AlBQuirky said:
    Ungood said:
    Wow.. after reading the last few posts.. This was supposed to highlight the positives?

    And talk about how to enjoy unbalanced games, I can honestly say, this has made it even more clear why no one would actually want that kind of game or set up. I mean you all make it sound like these games are just breeding grounds for trolls and trash players.

    I mean, Really? Playing a class were you are basically vultures preying in the weak and wounded, that's your market pitch to sell bad balanced games?

    I mean, at least with the Shadowbane Scout idea, was a using a Rock-Paper-Scissors balance correctly, but, that was a Rock-Paper-Scissors Balance done correctly.. so.. that kinda sets the value of my point.. not any of yours.

    Well that was enlightening.
    Is that really fair to say? In an MMO, how does one balance the 4v1 gang-ups? They happen, no matter what kinds of balancing is tried.

    Did you know some players don't play any game that is not on the hardest mode possible? That some players even enjoy (OMG!) taking a gimped character and succeeding with them? Some players even view "saving games" (save scumming) as cheating. It's called challenge. I'm not a rabid fan of it, but here is where I use the term "balance." Games are most fun for me when there is a "balance" between difficult  and easy.

    "Balance" is an ever changing line drawn in the sand. 1v1 balance is NOT the same as 5v5 or 40v40 balance. Then you have PvPers (what I usually run into) that won't engage unless they have a definite advantage of any kind.

    Remember, nobody said, "Balance is awful/EVIL!" Most here are speaking about MMOs, where each character is supposed to have differing strengths and weaknesses (aka: choices) for differing play styles, not any other genre :)
    Here is the thing. We start off with the basic idea that Fair is Fun.

    Now there is only so many factors that a game company can apply to make the game fun in this regard.

    For example, In a team based game, there is going to be a huge amount of inherent "Unfairness" and this will take the form of the tactics abilities and teamwork skills of each team, as well as the individual skills of each player. Now, a game really can't control these things, as that is part of the player themselves.

    But even if they can't control some of those things, there are things the developer can and does have complete control over. Which is the game Environment, and ultimately the fairness of the "Puppet" (Build/Character).

    So it would behoove them to try their best to build a sense of fairness for the things they can control, and allow the players to build the rest of the challenge for the teams they are on.

    I get that in many cases it can depend on the game, like I would GW2 much more leniency with Balance issues in their PvP and RvR game modes, because they are predominately a PvE game with some PvP tacked on for the people that like that, their PvP and RvR feel like "Check Box" content. At the same time, say an upcoming game like Crowfall for example, where the game is being built from the ground up, and advertised  to be a Team vs Team game, as such their balance, whatever system they opt to use, should be spot on and feeling fair. 

    In short, no. I don't give a free pass to a game, simply because they call themselves an MMO.

    Why do you?
    It's difficult to get past your opening statement, "Fair is fun." According to whom?

    Who defines fun and fair? Anyone who wins swears it's "fair." Those who lose blame everything but themselves. "Fun" is also a very subjective term, defined by the utterer, not a general consensus.

    Your opening statement takes 2 subjective words and tries to make them "rules."

    Is this scenario "fair", to you?
    - You and I meet in PvP of some kind. Your skill far outweighs my own, so in a "balanced" system, is this a fair fight? How about an unbalanced system where I have the advantage and you're still kicking my ass around?

    PvP often engages in "rankings" of some kind. Is it "fair" a top ten player can beat around a player in the 100-200 rank area? And shock of all shocks, that lower ranked player may even find that match "fun" as they learn from their defeat, improving their own skills.

    Tell me, please, where is this "fairness" you claim to desire? And how does "balance" bring it to life? You have proclaimed that you are a top-notch PvP contender. You at least have the right attitude for it :)

    Lastly, I don't "give MMOs a pass." I simply don't expect balance. They are NOT PvP games to me. They are social, crafting, leveling, exploration games to me. In my experience, PvP is rarely social.

    PS: I find interesting that you look for "fair & balanced" in mechanics, but turn a blind eye to player skill.
    Well joys of low population games, just tried to join Ork, and there is not enough of us on to even make a Queue.. blarg.. going back to LSM.

    Would you look at that shit.. Orks loaded.. WTF..

    Anyway.. so.. tell me.. do you like lop sided matches, and classes that can simply over power what you are playing ?

    .. and.. Funny.. some people that cry about imbalance will swear up and down, left and right, that MMO are PvP games.. and here you are saying they are not.

    The people that disagree with me.. might want to get their act together.
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
    Currently Playing Eternal Crusade, because killing people with a Chainsword is more fun then a sniper rifle.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,101
    Well.. I can't help it if Wakerfool can't figure out what their own stand is.
    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
    Currently Playing Eternal Crusade, because killing people with a Chainsword is more fun then a sniper rifle.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember LegendaryPosts: 7,781
    Someone give me a nickname riffed off my username!

    I feel left out. :(
    Steelhelm

    image
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Someone give me a nickname riffed off my username!

    I feel left out. :(
    If "Mad" and "Frenchie" combined isn't the most thorough take down ever then I don't know what would be.

    BadFrenchie
    MadHenny
    SadWenchie

    I'd call you the Uni-goober but that one has been claimed.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l9GxdK2ZNRQ/T3ohz-vs_aI/AAAAAAAAD40/w-p5At3SpZs/s1600/Unabomber-Ted-Kaczynskisketch.jpg
    MadFrenchieultimateduck
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Ungood said:
    Well.. I can't help it if Wakerfool can't figure out what their own stand is.
    This is terrible.

    When I was in game (LOTRO) I used to get called Wargfail quite a bit.
    Please use that from now on (or possibly Wargfool) because Wakerfool doesn't even make sense.

    What we need is balanced classes in Forum PvP because your class is getting owned right now.
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember LegendaryPosts: 6,273
     You will all be better off you learn your lesson and be thru with ....



    Ungood
  • WargfootYVWargfootYV Member UncommonPosts: 261
    Scorchien said:
     You will all be better off you learn your lesson and be thru with ....


    He called me WakerFool - I don't know what that means, exactly, but I'm pretty upset about it.
    ProTip: I don't think giving the Uni-goober a theme song is going to help with the ego issues.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,101
    Nahh.. I like Wankerfool, gonna keep using it.

    If you don't like it.. you can stop being a dick about trying to make fun of my name.. after all.. this is a game YOU wanted to play.

     Now lets see.

    So far.. My Opponets:
    • MMO are PvP games.
    • MMO are not PvP games.
    • RvR games are fair and balanced but not in measurable way, like population, classes, abilities, or any factors that can be judged in any way at all, but somehow are just magically arbitrarily declared balanced and fair.
    • Think getting killed and hiding their money (The IN game equal of hiding your lunch money in your shoe as the bully beats you up), is great game play.
    • Blames others for the massive popularity of more balanced PvP games, as opposed to realizing they are a very small minority that enjoyed imbalanced crap.
    • Can't explain (Out side making claims of enjoying getting killed and bullied by stronger sides/classes, like some kind of weird Stockholm syndrome) why imbalance is fun.
    • Can't explain why balance is fun at all on any level.
    • Can't grasp how a game can have diversity and balance, even if these games are live and have millions of players.
    • Devolved to Hurling Insults, as opposed to addressing the Points.
    Regarding the last one.. 

    Well.. 




    There is no Truth, only the Illusions we wish to Cling to. Knowing this, why do we all cling to such shitty illusions?
    Currently Playing Eternal Crusade, because killing people with a Chainsword is more fun then a sniper rifle.
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAMember LegendaryPosts: 6,273
    Scorchien said:
     You will all be better off you learn your lesson and be thru with ....


    He called me WakerFool - I don't know what that means, exactly, but I'm pretty upset about it.
    ProTip: I don't think giving the Uni-goober a theme song is going to help with the ego issues.
    Nogoods  attempts at sarcasm are as weak as his semantic, goal post moving and excuses ..just ignore it
    Slapshot1188ultimateduck
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