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3000 person battle?

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  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    edited January 30
    Remember all the games that could have been great if publishers/devs didn't rush them out the door to make a quick buck?

    Now we're getting the great games that are made at a pace to make them right.

    And the wait is agonizing.

    We can have nice, pretty cake to look at as our centrepiece, it really ties the room/table together.

    Or we can eat delicious cake.

    We can't have both.
    meddyckKyleran
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,509
    We have developers who can’t even accurately commit to making update posts. They give us updates on the update posts.  Forget about game delivery.  I think the next Crowdfunding Campaign needs to show proof that the developer actually understands project management.

    Too many trying to Roleplay as Developers today.

    Eh, I'll say it again, cause the more I ask the question and the more it goes unanswered, the louder that silence is (I've asked it about 10 times in similar conversations and have had 0/10 responses):

    can you (or anyone) name 3 medium-to-large scope MMORPGs with major innovations with fully public schedules that met all their deadlines and launched on time?

    Fully public means public from the beginning, and the whole schedule.

    Edit: I'm not saying I'm for sure right and none exist, I'm willing to be wrong; but when I've asked people who shit on devs for being late, and 0/10 of them can provide a lick of proof that this is due to bad project management by individual studios, it's hard to take these arguments seriously.
    Lol "they're all marketing based on pie-in-the-sky bullshit promises they try to play off on consumers using an appeal to their own authority, so it's okay!"

    Yeah.  That's a great way to look at it. :D   

    Why don't you "pledge" me $5,000 and I'll build you a 5 bedroom mansion on some prime real estate out in the Bahamas!  You can trust me; I've done carpentry work before.  I even have a schedule!  It'll be completed in 13 days.
    Huh?
    Nothing about them all failing to meet their deadlines makes it okay to rake in cash based on an appeal to their own authority reference deadlines they set themselves.  To believe so is silly.


    They set the deadlines, and sold these projects on the idea they have the skills and personnel to pull it off.  They're failing miserably, to the point there's no logical way they could've ever believed those schedules would hold in the first place.  Erego, they lied to rake in cash.
    So, if I understand you correctly, this is a problem with games in general, who use people's excitement and hope for games to cash in, by lying to them based on that hope?

    I agree.

    And I absolutely think that CSE was "optimistic" to the point of being indistinguishable from a lie with their estimated timelines.

    But like Slapshott said, they've still got refunds, so anyone who feels like they were lied to can get their entire donation back... and yet most people aren't doing that.

    And, to be honest, if the alternative is a failed Kickstarter with an 8 year timeframe and never having a decent RvR MMORPG again, I'll stomach being quasi-lied to rather than not have a great RvR game to enjoy, ever.
    There it is again: ends justify the means.  That's becoming a common theme.


    Don't think I'm necessarily trying to disparage you personally about this, I just happened to see your overly optimistic post and jumped into the thread.  I'm just sick of these crowdfunded MMORPG companies being either 1) retardedly incompetent at project planning, or 2) deceitful.

    EDIT- also, I'm willing to give credit where it's due reference refunds for CU.  But this entire landscape has become complete and utter bullshit artistry preying on the desperation of a core group of MMORPG fans who feel the industry has left them behind.
    Thanks for clarifying, didn't think you were trying to disparage me personally.

    I was more complaining that nobody wants to talk about the possibility that making a technologically demanding MMORPG, with a bunch of new systems people haven't combined before, is maybe just extra fucking hard to know timelines for.

    And to be clear - I extend my willingness to accept missed deadlines to any other MMORPG that's doing innovative stuff that hasn't been done before: Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, Star Citizen, as long as they can show some tangible progress (and all of them do!). Is Pantheon doing never-done-before, technologically-hard-to-do stuff? If they are, I'd give them deadline-wiggle-room too.
    I am not disagreeing they are trying to do challenging things, I just feel after 6 years they should be able to confirm a reasonably accurate timeline to delivery, even if its 2.75 years in the future.
    tweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,200
    The ends do not justify the means.
    The expectations are set by the devs not the players. Many of the concepts in earlier posts should be directed to the devs not the players.  So as a player I have no idea nor do I care how long ESO took to build.  The developer is SUPPOSED to be the expert and they are the ones who told us how long it would take.  When they are years late and double or triple their estimates it’s obvious that they either lied or are incompetent. 

    Again,  THEY set the expectations so they deserve every single complaint. I give CU a pass generally because I can get a refund any time I want.  That makes a huge difference to me.
    Gdemamitweedledumb99druez

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,816
    edited January 30
    Thanks for clarifying, didn't think you were trying to disparage me personally.

    I was more complaining that nobody wants to talk about the possibility that making a technologically demanding MMORPG, with a bunch of new systems people haven't combined before, is maybe just extra fucking hard to know timelines for.

    And to be clear - I extend my willingness to accept missed deadlines to any other MMORPG that's doing innovative stuff that hasn't been done before: Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, Star Citizen, as long as they can show some tangible progress (and all of them do!). Is Pantheon doing never-done-before, technologically-hard-to-do stuff? If they are, I'd give them deadline-wiggle-room too.
    ...there is a gross misunderstanding about game/sw development.

    No game/sw is 'never-done-before' neither it is 'all-done-before'.

    Every sw project of this scale is unique with it's own challenges and in that regard, CU is no exception.

    Even then, the actual challenging part isn't the technicalities, those are rather easy to solve, the real challenge comes with design level - to get the right 'feel', turning the vision of the game into actual content is so much harder than getting 3000 bots online.
    tweedledumb99Kyleran
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Kyleran said:
    Viper482 said:
    So what you are saying is that they are 18 months out :)


    I'll have to load it up and give it my every 6 months test spin.

    The game is very much still in alpha regardless what they want to call it. 18 months to a no kidding real release is being kind. 
    I see my 2-2.5 year estimate as being optimistic, in the sense that I believe they have the money and skill to actually meet their Kickstarter goals and launch a solid, fun game in that amount of time - as opposed to thinking they'll end up needing to launch unfinished by the end of 2019.

    Edit: that said, theres no PvE leveling, no quests or raids or dungeons or NPC factions and they use procedural generation for the terrain. 

    Going from all-game-systems complete to ready-to-launch may be quicker than expected.
    Never use the word "quicker" when referencing indie MMO delivery schedules, especially not CU which is coming up on the 6 year mark in April.

    Realize your 2.5 year "optimistic" estimate is 6 months longer than was promised in the Kickstarter. 

    Go read MJs many replies over on the MassivelyOP thread linked in the OP. It's clear he's become obsessed with creating a large scale battlefield the likes never seen before in MMO space.

    Its also clear he's lost his way and forgotten he promised to deliver a functioning game in a reasonable time.

    He really won't release it before he's satisfied his desire, even if it takes another 3 to 5 years. (Because he's doing it all for the backers, don't ya know)

    It's not without good reason he no longer shows his face here, even on usually passive Massively some of the responses he received were withering,  yet he let the band play on about how "great" an achievement this is.

    I suppose so, if the goal is to market a MMO battle engine,  which I'm starting to think is the long game here.


    Sounds like some rather childish behavior from supporters who can get a refund any time they feel development has lost its way. 
    tweedledumb99druezKyleran

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    The ends do not justify the means.
    The expectations are set by the devs not the players. Many of the concepts in earlier posts should be directed to the devs not the players.  So as a player I have no idea nor do I care how long ESO took to build.  The developer is SUPPOSED to be the expert and they are the ones who told us how long it would take.  When they are years late and double or triple their estimates it’s obvious that they either lied or are incompetent. 

    Again,  THEY set the expectations so they deserve every single complaint. I give CU a pass generally because I can get a refund any time I want.  That makes a huge difference to me.
    They do deserve complaints, they did set expectations.

    And if they'd been realistic with expectations, the game wouldnt have kickstarted and RvRers would have nothing to look forward to.

    So I'm kinda glad they were "optimistic" cause Id rather wait for something good than get nothing, see cake-choice post above.

    But now that they have enough funding, I agree with Kyleran that they need to just get real and say "ya its gonna be another 2.5-3 years" as opposed to clinging to this 2019-is-possible stuff.
    alkarionlogmeddyck
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    edited January 30
    Gdemami said:
    Thanks for clarifying, didn't think you were trying to disparage me personally.

    I was more complaining that nobody wants to talk about the possibility that making a technologically demanding MMORPG, with a bunch of new systems people haven't combined before, is maybe just extra fucking hard to know timelines for.

    And to be clear - I extend my willingness to accept missed deadlines to any other MMORPG that's doing innovative stuff that hasn't been done before: Crowfall, Ashes of Creation, Star Citizen, as long as they can show some tangible progress (and all of them do!). Is Pantheon doing never-done-before, technologically-hard-to-do stuff? If they are, I'd give them deadline-wiggle-room too.
    ...there is a gross misunderstanding about game/sw development.

    No game/sw is 'never-done-before' neither it is 'all-done-before'.

    Every sw project of this scale is unique with it's own challenges and in that regard, CU is no exception.

    Even then, the actual challenging part isn't the technicalities, those are rather easy to solve, the real challenge comes with design level - to get the right 'feel', turning the vision of the game into actual content is so much harder than getting 3000 bots online.
    Give me a reason to believe you know what you're talking about lol.

    Edit: you say what they're doing is easy, so, show me how that's not a pile of BS, LOLMaster.

    Can't LOL your way out of this one, but goodness knows you'll probably try.
    Gdemamialkarionlog
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,816
    Give me a reason to believe you know what you're talking about lol.
    ...is there any point trying explaining anything(obvious) to you?
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    edited January 30
    Gdemami said:
    Give me a reason to believe you know what you're talking about lol.
    ...is there any point trying explaining anything(obvious) to you?
    Attempt 1: avoiding the question and insults.

    Will there be an attempt 2?

    Edit: yes, the point is you will appear to make a coherent point to internet people. If you value that, try answering my question. If not, keep inexpertly dodging it.
    GdemamiMendelQuizzical
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,786
    edited January 30
    You'll note that I'm not:

    - saying this game will launch
    - saying this game will be good
    - denying people's right to be frustrated at their lateness
    - shitting on other devs (unless they are actively fucking with their employees, fans, customers)
    - 100% convinced that project management isn't a problem for this game.
    You can say all of these things but your posts tell a different story. When you have to explain all the above you might want to rethink how you post. Kind of like if you have to tell people "no really, I'm a good person" you might want to think what you are doing where everyone thinks you are a bad person. 

    The game is not where they try to sell it as. They kept rescheduling beta and people were dropping off like mad, so they put a different color bow on what I saw as pre-alpha and called it beta 1. Right about now they are in what most games would call alpha 2.0 or some shit like that. 

    Every backer has every reason in the world to have zero faith in anything being promised by MJ. There were skeptics all along that said don't trust this guy, he is the one who killed Daoc.  I was not one of them and I put $100 on my faith. I'll certainly bitch if I want to, don't need your permission.
    Kyleran
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    edited January 30
    Gdemami said:
    Give me a reason to believe you know what you're talking about lol.
    ...is there any point trying explaining anything(obvious) to you?
    You said what CU has already done, and is still doing, is easy. I say it's not. Show me why you think it's easy.

    - Server side physics for an MMORPG with hundreds/thousands of players in a zone,

    - Block-by-block building networked across thousands of clients,

    - Block-by-block building destruction where building pieces get turned into rubble that's real physics objects,

    - 2,400 networked clients in a space the size of an MMO village, all within view distance and not occluded, using abilities including physics-based abilities like projectiles and AoE knockbacks, at 20+ FPS with minimal rubberbanding.

    - 4km draw distance with players being rendered (though LOD'd) the full 4km.

    Edit: complete bullshit responses include, but arent limited to: games that arent MMOs, games that arent 3d rendered at standard FPS, games with way fewer networked clients (e.g. highly instanced MMOs or multiplayer games).
    Post edited by tweedledumb99 on
    Gdemami
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    edited January 30
    Viper482 said:
    You'll note that I'm not:

    - saying this game will launch
    - saying this game will be good
    - denying people's right to be frustrated at their lateness
    - shitting on other devs (unless they are actively fucking with their employees, fans, customers)
    - 100% convinced that project management isn't a problem for this game.
    You can say all of these things but your posts tell a different story. When you have to explain all the above you might want to rethink how you post. Kind of like if you have to tell people "no really, I'm a good person" you might want to think what you are doing where everyone thinks you are a bad person. 

    The game is not where they try to sell it as. They kept rescheduling beta and people were dropping off like mad, so they put a different color bow on what I saw as pre-alpha and called it beta 1. Right about now they are in what most games would call alpha 2.0 or some shit like that. 

    Every backer has every reason in the world to have zero faith in anything being promised by MJ. There were skeptics all along that said don't trust this guy, he is the one who killed Daoc.  

    If people don't see what I'm doing with my posts, I'm ok with that. But I thought I'd put it in bullet points so it's clear. Anyone who thinks I'm lying can check my post history here.

    And to be clear: I don't bash people for being frustrated or lacking faith in devs, you can look in this very thread and see that I agree with those people. It's the people that criticize with made-up-bullshit, or who express their frustration with entitled demands that don't hold up to any basic examining, that I go against.

    Yes, the game is not a real beta. Yes it's not what they sell it as. No I don't expect people to have faith in their ability to meet deadlines.

    That's 3 points of yours I agree with.

    But here I am, pointing out a comment that's flat out wrong and makes no sense: "he is the one who killed Daoc" - not true, wasn't him who killed DAoC, was a combo of EA (and he had no choice in making that sale) and WoW (see: from around the 15 minute mark) - quit your nonsense.

    See what I did there?

    Edit: also, not sure if your analogy is just an analogy or veiled criticsm of me as a person, but I don't think that people here think I'm a good person, and I'm not trying to convince anyone of that through the post you quote - I'm asking people to actually pay attention to what I'm writing instead of knee-jerk assuming I must be 100% against something if I dislike parts of it, or that I must 100% like something if I defend it from complete nonsense accusations.

    Post edited by tweedledumb99 on
    Nyctelios
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    edited January 30

    - Don't trust the devs to estimate deadlines for what they're making
    - The devs do actually deliver the foundational stuff, eventually
    - They care a lot about tech, to the point of holding up the game by years to make sure the tech supports the gameplay
    - They offer refunds
    - Bullshit and misplaced-entitlement from gamers frustrates the fuck out of me
    - repeatedly missed deadlines from these devs ALSO frustrates me, but not nearly as much as the unhappy-gamer bullshit
    - Being skeptical of these devs' ability to meet deadlines is ABSOLUTELY reasonable
    - It's a pretty good situation that we've got: at least half a dozen devs dedicated to making MMO's for under-developed-for niches, actually making tangible progress towards those games (Ashes, Star Citizen, Crowfall, CU, Pantheon, Gorgon, others I'm sure).
    - Or just continue to Chicken Little cause it brings you perverse joy, I'm sure that's valuable too /s.

    Edit: and if you don't repeatedly Chicken Little, then this comment isn't directed at you, so, sort yourself accordingly.
    Gdemami
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    Thank goodness I was wrong about @Gdemami, who has answered a direct simple question and not just gone back to lol'ing every post...

    ..

    *_*
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,757
    Viper482 said:
    You can say all of these things but your posts tell a different story. When you have to explain all the above you might want to rethink how you post. Kind of like if you have to tell people "no really, I'm a good person" you might want to think what you are doing where everyone thinks you are a bad person. 
    Nahh, it's pretty common for people to misrepresent what anyone who disagrees with them says on gamer forums.

    So needing to set things straight is not uncommon at all and often a problem due to strawman responses happening.

    Viper482 said:
    I'll certainly bitch if I want to, don't need your permission.
    You are free to bitch if that is what you want to do, but this is a public forum and people are free to call you out on your bitching.

    If you can't handle that.. then maybe bitching on a public form is not for you.
    tweedledumb99MendelViper482Kyleran
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    Ungood said:
    Viper482 said:
    You can say all of these things but your posts tell a different story. When you have to explain all the above you might want to rethink how you post. Kind of like if you have to tell people "no really, I'm a good person" you might want to think what you are doing where everyone thinks you are a bad person. 
    Nahh, it's pretty common for people to misrepresent what anyone who disagrees with them says on gamer forums.

    So needing to set things straight is not uncommon at all and often a problem due to strawman responses happening.

    Viper482 said:
    I'll certainly bitch if I want to, don't need your permission.
    You are free to bitch if that is what you want to do, but this is a public forum and people are free to call you out on your bitching.

    If you can't handle that.. then maybe bitching on a public form is not for you.
    QFT, felt 3x saner reading this post. 
    UngoodGdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,262
    Estimated future release dates are overrated, including by the people who say that they don't believe them.  Tell me when the game has released and we can have a look to see if it's any good.  Everything that happens before that is just meaningless noise.
    tweedledumb99
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    Quizzical said:
    Estimated future release dates are overrated, including by the people who say that they don't believe them.  Tell me when the game has released and we can have a look to see if it's any good.  Everything that happens before that is just meaningless noise.
    Omg exactly, thank you to the sane people for returning to the thread lol.
    Gdemami
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,262

    We can have nice, pretty cake to look at as our centrepiece, it really ties the room/table together.

    Or we can eat delicious cake.

    We can't have both.
    Have you considered buying two cakes?  Then you can have one cake and eat one, too.
    tweedledumb99
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    edited January 30
    Quizzical said:

    We can have nice, pretty cake to look at as our centrepiece, it really ties the room/table together.

    Or we can eat delicious cake.

    We can't have both.
    Have you considered buying two cakes?  Then you can have one cake and eat one, too.
    I made the first cake reference as an analogy (obv), but I read your response at face value and now want cake xD

    But within the analogy, how can we have two cakes? I dont see how we can have good games with the innovative difficult features we want AND demand tight timelines and no delays.
    Gdemami
  • druezdruez Member UncommonPosts: 102
    Viper482 said:
    So what you are saying is that they are 18 months out :)


    I'll have to load it up and give it my every 6 months test spin.

    The game is very much still in alpha regardless what they want to call it. 18 months to a no kidding real release is being kind. 
    Marc has been pretty honest that this was an "old school" beta and not a beta that people roll out these days, which are really "previews".  I was a beta tester back on the old DAOC.  This reminds me of that beta.  

    By today's standards this would be an alpha and its the reason that it is closed.  You should not judge the game by what is present today.  

    Other then the time to deliver, which is behind schedule, they have met my expectations on what they promised.  

    Time will tell if it turns out to be a fun product.  I have faith because I was a fan of old mythic entertainment games from years past.  Magestorm and DAOC were some of my favorite games.  I even liked the vision of Warhammer, that game could of been awesome.

    tweedledumb99
  • druezdruez Member UncommonPosts: 102
    edited January 30
    Games or any program can run way behind schedules, when you decide to rewrite entire systems.  Essentially, they scrapped their ability system I believe and had to redo it from scratch.  Its been a while since I read about it.  

    I'm willing to bet not many people on this thread have ever tried to create a product from scratch from idealization to commercialization.   When doing that you make allot of assumptions in the idea/vision phase.   You swag your estimates and if you are within a 100% of your initial estimate over/under, consider it a success.  

    When you start to design systems and smoke test them and they don't meet your standards and you have to scrap rewrite/redesign the entire systems it adds a ton of time.  This is completely normal in software development.  

    I've designed two real-time applications for the drilling industry over the past 19 years of my career.   The second time wasn't any easier, I was just better prepared to handle the highs and lows of the marathon.  These projects if done correctly are marathons with sprints mixed in.   

    Some of the smartest dudes I know in Drilling Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Physics etc... are wrong on their dates and timelines all the time.  

    You show me one software development project that was 100% on time and I'll show you a project that didn't do anything new and/or cut features.  If it was delivered on time with the same feature set; I can guarantee you that they worked 80+ hours a week, every week, to make up for lost time.

    Look at what you get in your annualized sports titles.  Very little new, very little risk taking.  Because they have hard deadlines for an annualized release.  You can't do that with a new MMO.


    tweedledumb99
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    edited January 30
    druez said:
    Games or any program can run way behind schedules, when you decide to rewrite entire systems.  Essentially, they scrapped their ability system I believe and had to redo it from scratch.  Its been a while since I read about it.  

    I'm willing to bet not many people on this thread have ever tried to create a product from scratch from idealization to commercialization.   When doing that you make allot of assumptions in the idea/vision phase.   You swag your estimates and if you are within a 100% of your initial estimate over/under, consider it a success.  

    When you start to design systems and smoke test them and they don't meet your standards and you have to scrap rewrite/redesign the entire systems it adds a ton of time.  This is completely normal in software development.  

    I've designed two real-time applications for the drilling industry over the past 19 years of my career.   The second time wasn't any easier, I was just better prepared to handle the highs and lows of the marathon.  These projects if done correctly are marathons with sprints mixed in.   

    Some of the smartest dudes I know in Drilling Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Physics etc... are wrong on their dates and timelines all the time.  

    You show me one software development project that was 100% on time and I'll show you a project that didn't do anything new and/or cut features.  If it was delivered on time with the same feature set; I can guarantee you that they worked 80+ hours a week, every week, to make up for lost time.

    Look at what you get in your annualized sports titles.  Very little new, very little risk taking.  Because they have hard deadlines for an annualized release.  You can't do that with a new MMO.


    Great post.

    I'm a bit out of my depth making this comment, but I'll make it anyway (not @Druez, you clearly know way the ass more than I do about software dev, this is @everyone generally):

    1) There's a difference between complexity (many moving parts) and complication (difficult because important/valued parts conflict with each other)

    2) I think there's a particular challenge estimating time to make a tech-heavy user experience that relies on many tech-demanding systems working on their own, and together.

    Games are selling "fun," and nobody has yet cracked the formula for what makes a game fun for an audience or unfun and boring. We've got good ideas at what not to do, but we often do it anyway, and 5% of the time the supposedly unfun stuff ends up being kickass-joy for a previously undiscovered audience (see: Mount and Blade/Warband).

    It's just gotta be damn hard when you're trying to make something fun, there's no guaranteed formula, and the parts that make the fun are made by highly skilled people with engineering degrees and years of experience making these things and even they can't know what will for sure be fun.

    On top of that, you need to network everyone's fun across imperfect internet connections, thousands of people, and make sure the complexity and complications of that** don't fuck with fun.

    **As an example of the complications with making an MMO, let's look at client-side vs. server-side world-state authority.

    If you make your game client-side, the server believes what the client is telling it, you don't need to wait for the server to confirm or run checks on what clients are telling it, and everyone's gameplay experience is smoother (setting aside lag over long distance/poor connections).

    This makes it easier, way easier, to cheat, because you can tell your client to tell the server that you're level 9000, that you move 200m/sec, or that you have 90k platinum/mithril/salty-duck-feathers wtf-ever.

    If you go with server-side authority, you get a lot more protection against hacking and cheaters - but your game feels clunkier, your character isn't always where you think it is, you get some rubberbanding when the server tells your client "nope you can't do that" even for small movements.

    This is a complication because there's no win-win solution, you either get more cheaters or more clunkiness/lag - this is two valued parts of the experience that are in conflict with each other, and the best you can do is minimize the frustration for the end-user.

    Gdemami
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 251
    edited January 30

    You still haven't answered my question, just continued to lol like I said you would.

    But I'm sure you're getting around to it, right?

    Looking forward to it.

    Edit: Where's the lol on this post @Gdemami? Get on top of it. Slacking; shame, I say!
    MadFrenchie
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,509
    Quizzical said:

    We can have nice, pretty cake to look at as our centrepiece, it really ties the room/table together.

    Or we can eat delicious cake.

    We can't have both.
    Have you considered buying two cakes?  Then you can have one cake and eat one, too.
    I made the first cake reference as an analogy (obv), but I read your response at face value and now want cake xD

    But within the analogy, how can we have two cakes? I dont see how we can have good games with the innovative difficult features we want AND demand tight timelines and no delays.
    Six years and counting can in no way be considered a tight timeline and I well understand the many reasons for the delay to this point thus far.

    I can't understand the unwillingness to publish a reasonable timeline,  unless they truly don't know due to "reasons" of some sort which they haven't shared.


    Gdemami

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






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