Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

The lack of new Tabtarget/Normal Combat games... a huge chance for gaming companies.

LonzoLonzo Member UncommonPosts: 294
If we look at good old tabtargeting games like WOW or final fantasy 14, there are no alternatives right now. It seems that FF14 will be the new reference in the next 5 years, leaving WOW behind, because of strange decisions Blizzard did recently. There is a HUGE audience for this type of games, that love classic tab target combat. Let's face it, fast paced action combat ala BDO didn't make it - no one wants that, so why is no AAA gaming company investing in a big future mmorpg that can attract millions of people?

image
GdemamicraftseekerMikehaCaffynatedbcbullyYashaXSetzer
«1

Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I love it and i never hear anyone else say the same so it tells me we are simply in a new generation of ADD gaming.FAST faster and fastest,that is how the kids like to game now.

    The reason i love tab target as i was eluding to nobody else mentions it is because it frees up your fingers to do a LOT more than simply moving and aiming.The ONLY genre i can accept move and aim  is fpsr's in arena maps.

    Fortnite tries to as Epic has since the first Unreal game was to add something new but in FN's case it is silly and i cannot take a fpsr seriously when i see those building stairs nonsense.

    However mmorpg's you can do so much ,more so than simply a hotbar icon,you can write your own scripts to interchange stuff and create a back n forth thinking game.FF14 is Square Enix a very long time developer that has been in touch with the role play game environment,much different than the Korean developers.

    Now when mentioning Wow,i don't think it is quite the same because you could literally bind your 2/3/4 hotbar icons to a mouse and not even care about anything else.FFXI did it th best,FFXIV was a step backwards and then we got to the point of ARPG's where you don't need any thought and only 2 buttons,so we are seeing a downgrading of game play year by year.Now in fairness to Square i know what happened,the asshats at the top pushed the game out way too ealry because it was costing too much,very similar to SWTOR..OH NOES 200 million STOP development,put it out for sale.

    NOW..lol like i said a degradation in the gaming industry,NOW early access and worse.Long winded point?It is that devs don't WANT to do MORE,so it is way easier to just got pvp/move/aim and call it a game.Then we get 500 more of the exact same gameplay and wonder why the market looks so stale,at least stale to someone not living under a rock.
    craftseeker

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • GrindcoreTHRALLGrindcoreTHRALL Member UncommonPosts: 302
    While tab targeting can be cool it seems really unfair to say BDO didnt make it because the lack of tab targeting. BDO is an amazing game but I dont play it because of the cash shop and pay 2 win bs I dont wanna compete with. I am sure many others share the same sentiment. I am sure another fast paced MMO like BDO could be successful if the right decisions were made.
    AlBQuirkynatpicktaekimesc-joconnorSovrathCaffynatedMrMelGibsonYashaXGdemami
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,610
    As they're primarily very unstimulating when it comes to PvE.

    EQ was the worst offender in this regard. You could easily text chat, read a book, watch a film whilst engaged in combat.

    Make the PvE engaging.
    AlBQuirkyYashaX

    image
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    I like tab targeting better in mmorpg's here's why,

    Tab Targeting allows for more complexities and diversification in a long running game where you play for months and years.  It's the accumulative of abilities that stack to keep the on going character interesting to build....Skill trees and Talents.  


    As apposed to Real-time-combat abilities that you could do only so much with.  Boring after awhile. 
    For example:
    Melee fighter the best you can do is SWING faster, SWING harder, use less stamina...Boring ! 


    Putting the off combat character build aside, their equal as fun to play.  Both with pro's and con's 
    craftseeker
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,347
    There's a lot more competition than there used to be.  Some people wanted more engaging combat akin to what had long been available in single-player games.  When WoW launched, you couldn't get that in an MMORPG.  Now you can.

    Other people wanted less engaging combat so that you wouldn't have to do so much.  There were some such options when WoW launched, but today, we have games that have gone much further with automatic combat so that the game basically plays itself.

    The audience for what you want is thus likely to be much smaller than it used to be.
    AlBQuirky
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 7,432
    I prefer tab targeting, myself, but I'm in the vast minority right now.

    Consoles are what I blame. ALL fingers and thumbs are utilized on a console controller, so it is hard to sit "and do nothing" but hit a key/button every now and again.

    It also depended on the MMORPG one played. I played a Bard in EQ 1 (tab target) and twisting songs (3 or 4 songs) was much busier than any "action combat" I've partaken in. And the songs weren't "automatic", meaning I'd see a lot of, "You missed a note and the songs ends."

    My most loved feature about tab targeting is when faced with a group of enemies, trying to "click" on the one you want can get quite frustrating for me.

    But alas, the money is with a more action oriented combat now, as combat is by far the number one activity in MMOs these days.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,141
    With the move to action combat I have seen the steady removal of complex skill systems.   Its harder for the player to keep their target in line with the cursor while cycling through dozens of skills.  Tab targeting allowed for deep and complex skill rotations.  I just don't see it anymore with the move to "action" combat.  Less brain power more twitch seems to be trend.
    SlyLoKHariken
  • SandmanjwSandmanjw Member RarePosts: 526
    immodium said:
    As they're primarily very unstimulating when it comes to PvE.

    EQ was the worst offender in this regard. You could easily text chat, read a book, watch a film whilst engaged in combat.

    Make the PvE engaging.
    You seem to be confusing the sitting to meditate or regen, with combat. You spent a lot of time on your butt...so you could chat or read. Not while you were fighting, that i recall. 

    Tab target has nothing to do with stimulating or not. that is all down to game design. 
    Truvidien88Caylera
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,347
    AlBQuirky said:
    I prefer tab targeting, myself, but I'm in the vast minority right now.

    Consoles are what I blame. ALL fingers and thumbs are utilized on a console controller, so it is hard to sit "and do nothing" but hit a key/button every now and again.

    It also depended on the MMORPG one played. I played a Bard in EQ 1 (tab target) and twisting songs (3 or 4 songs) was much busier than any "action combat" I've partaken in. And the songs weren't "automatic", meaning I'd see a lot of, "You missed a note and the songs ends."

    My most loved feature about tab targeting is when faced with a group of enemies, trying to "click" on the one you want can get quite frustrating for me.

    But alas, the money is with a more action oriented combat now, as combat is by far the number one activity in MMOs these days.
    For an industry that has moved to action combat for the sake of console controllers, there don't seem to be very many games in that category.  How many games are there that are:

    1)  released and not yet shut down
    2)  action combat
    3)  comfortable on a controller
    4)  plausibly described as an MMO
    5)  not tab target

    Off the top of my head, there is Spiral Knights, Tree of Savior, Kritika Online, Elsword, and that's it.  I haven't tried Vindictus, which might belong on that list, but that's all that I can think of.  I don't think any of those games are even available on consoles.

    There are kind of actiony games like Champions Online or Guild Wars 2 that are tab target.  There are some click-to-move games that are action combat, but click to move is death to controllers if you have to do it very precisely.  There are games like TERA that you might think were designed around consoles if you haven't tried using a controller with them, but are actually really awkward with a controller.

    There has certainly been a lot of movement toward action combat, but a lot of it assumes keyboard+mouse.  The movement toward controller-friendly has been much less, and would include some tab-targeting games like FFXIV.
  • VorthanionVorthanion Member RarePosts: 2,749
    edited January 2019
    DMKano said:
    The issue is tab targeting has fallen out of favor just like land-lines and cable TV.

    When you say big opportunity - you really mean - make a tab target game that caters to a small minority.

    The OP is simply mistaken about the size of the playerbase who wants tab-target only game.
    I'm still waiting for someone to pull out real numbers on all of the "small minority" comments constantly being made on this website.  History tells us that tab target games are profitable, there's nothing I've seen so far to prove they can't still be profitable in today's market.  Why even have a PC market when there are supposedly so many more console gamers?  Why continue offering support for keyboard and mouse when the controller is suppose to be more popular?    More players like first person shooters, but luckily we still have role playing and strategy games on tap.  The day when all that is available to play are Fortnite clones using controllers is the day I kill myself.


    Long live variety and options in computer gaming!
    craftseekerAlBQuirky

    image
  • ohioastroohioastro Member UncommonPosts: 534
    One interesting fact about classic MMOs is that they actually tend to draw an older audience - including disabled folks.  And older people have slower reflexes (me included), which means that we don't tend to like action combat.  The focus on action combat is, I think, a poor reading of the market, and there really is an audience for games which aren't twitch focused.  Put another way: if everyone is chasing the large first person shooter market, you could probably make a comfortable profit going for a different audience.  Especially since MMOs are not particularly good at competing with shooters in the first place.
    craftseekerAlBQuirky
  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,680
    It's funny because most of the top MMO's are tab targeting. But you have people that grew up with console invading MMO's now. They need to have that action combat or the game is to slow for them. 
  • RemaliRemali Member RarePosts: 914
    Watching the traffic from sites like steam , twich and others bdo easy has 3x the population of ff14 so who failled again?
    YashaX
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited January 2019
    Never been big on tab target myself. It does not offer any increase in the strategic depth of a game to me and has tended to mostly signify that there is a certain layer of control or detail that's actually been taken away. 

    I come more so from a background where I used to play and enjoy the likes of the original Rainbow shooters, and a preference towards real-time strategy elements in general. If you wanna talk about a neglected genre, action-strategy has a very narrow window of titles.

    I can understand the tab mechanic being a mechanical solution to the stability of a game, but I feel people should never make the mistake of conflating what it means for the complexity or depth of a game, as those elements are separate factors to do with how a system is implemented, not just which base framework is there.

    For those that do like tab target, I would say you might have a better opportunity looking for more games that use a soft targeting or z-targeting style system, as those are both at home on consoles as much or more than they are on PC, and plays directly into that type of system.
    Shaigh
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,347
    DMKano said:
    Studios make games that can be played on every platform - consoles, mobile and PC - making a tab target game only limits you to PC - which studio in their right mind would make such a bad business decision.
    Tab target works fine on consoles, at least if you're willing to count "click this button to switch targets" even if that button doesn't say "Tab" on it.  People might decline to play a tab target game on a console because they don't like the game or because they don't like tab targeting, but that has nothing to do with consoles.

    The big limitations of using a controller are:
    1)  You can't do analog movements that are both fast and precise like you can with a mouse,
    2)  You don't have that many buttons, so if you want a lot of hotkeys, you have to jump to combinations of buttons that you can't hit that quickly, and
    3)  You need a versatile control scheme that allows players to remap things in ways that the designers never anticipated.

    Point (3) is huge on a PC, but might be moot on a console if you know that all of your players are using exactly this particular controller, but (1) and (2) are still major issues.

    As for mobile, that's a different genre entirely, with very little overlap with console or PC gaming.  Sometimes a mobile game may also be available for PC if it's easy enough to port, but being playable on mobile really cripples what they can do, and they're not expecting to make much money off of the PC version.  The problem isn't merely that you don't have a button to switch targets; it's that you have no keys or buttons at all.
    CayleraAlBQuirkyMendel
  • RemaliRemali Member RarePosts: 914
    With so many mmos coming the next few years there is room for both styles and even varietions of the 2 like ashes supposebly is going to do.There are still tab target mmos being made choice is what is importand.
    Also don't use the console excuse for preferring mmos I ve been a gamer for long before consoles being in my 40s and so all my friends that are gamers and we prefer bdo or eso that is also kinda action over the tab targeting games
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 3,823
    Remali said:
    Watching the traffic from sites like steam , twich and others bdo easy has 3x the population of ff14 so who failled again?
    BDO on Steam is around 15,000 concurrent and has never been above 30,000 concurrent. So, the Steam numbers are too low to be relevant.

    Twitch does not track sales numbers or concurrent players online so it is worthless to determine current player base for any game.

    So, how do figure that BDO has 3 times more players than FF14 again?
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,347
    Xiaoki said:
    Remali said:
    Watching the traffic from sites like steam , twich and others bdo easy has 3x the population of ff14 so who failled again?
    BDO on Steam is around 15,000 concurrent and has never been above 30,000 concurrent. So, the Steam numbers are too low to be relevant.

    Twitch does not track sales numbers or concurrent players online so it is worthless to determine current player base for any game.

    So, how do figure that BDO has 3 times more players than FF14 again?
    Black Desert encourages players to stay logged in even while not actively playing the game, which makes its concurrent online players numbers not comparable to those that encourage players to log off when they're not playing.  That approach got Clicker Heroes high up on the concurrent players online charts for a while, and it was very successful for a very low budget game, but that didn't mean it was one of the most actively played games in the world.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    BDO is soft-target (functions same as tab, just doesn't give you a specific key to tab with and instead uses a system for target-affinity) any ways. What was the comparison supposed to be about?
  • RemaliRemali Member RarePosts: 914
    @Xiaoki and @Quizzical ; you are both correct that bdo averages 15k on steam even tho most ppl have gotten it from the official site since the steam version is problematic
    And yes it does promote afk activities but would you go so far to say that nobody wants it like the op does?
    If i had a guess wow is still king followed by bdo and eso who go head to head pop wise everything else is just too low to matter
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 31,937
    The first time I played a tab target game I was dissapointed and hoped that someday someone would fix it.

    Now, having said that, I recognize the positives of tab target games and have enjoyed them and will continue to enjoy them but they don't really feel visceral or exciting. More like rolling a dice and getting an 18 and someone saying "you hit."
    MrMelGibsonAlBQuirky[Deleted User]YashaX
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • MasoodVoonMasoodVoon Member UncommonPosts: 50
    Tab targeting lends to lack of immersion. I think many of you alluded to this when you talked about afk playing. It just is more realistic to aim your bow, to not see 2000 hotbar items. First with increased voice acting, then with dynamic and story driven questing, games have become much more immersion based and less of a repetitive grind. Not all old features are bad but it's a new emphasis.
    craftseekerYashaX
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    Tab targeting lends to lack of immersion. I think many of you alluded to this when you talked about afk playing. It just is more realistic to aim your bow, to not see 2000 hotbar items. First with increased voice acting, then with dynamic and story driven questing, games have become much more immersion based and less of a repetitive grind. Not all old features are bad but it's a new emphasis.
    You have obviously never used a real bow, never mind a traditional yew war bow, and have no clue what you are talking about. Realistic? Give me a break!
    AlBQuirky
  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,500
    I prefer tab targeting myself.  Mostly because I have gotten older have have major issues with my hand.  Action combat isn't fun when you hand is killing you from holding a mouse.  I can use a controller to somewhat get around this when playing arpg's, but I can't stand using a controller for MMORPG's I prefer the mouse for that. 

    Many of the youths today have to have fast paced stuff to keep their attention.  They have been bombarded by stuff their entire lives unlike the older gamers who let's face it didn't see a ton of gaming outside of what we got our hands on.  It's just a change of times.  They want jump in kill some stuff move on.  Could have a lot to do with they have so many choices it is ridiculous, whereas myself growing up I might have gotten a new game every 4 to 5 months if I was lucky enough to save up the money from cutting grass to be able to afford that $30 game.
    HarikenPalebaneazarhal
  • MasoodVoonMasoodVoon Member UncommonPosts: 50
    Remali said:
    @Xiaoki and @Quizzical ; you are both correct that bdo averages 15k on steam even tho most ppl have gotten it from the official site since the steam version is problematic
    And yes it does promote afk activities but would you go so far to say that nobody wants it like the op does?
    If i had a guess wow is still king followed by bdo and eso who go head to head pop wise everything else is just too low to matter

    Yeah I've seen so many estimates of player bases. I would leave it to someone who plays all games to give an accurate estimation. I played FFXIV a few months ago for a bit and it seemed moderately busy but not super popular. WOW has always been its own category and will probably lose competition only to itself. ESO seems like it has the edge in the non-wow category now, but maybe I'm wrong.
Sign In or Register to comment.