Mmorpg.com has certainly drove quite a lot of people to CoE. And it still could. So why that reaction? Because of hurt feelings over one article or is there something else that I'm missing?
Certainly? I wonder what your certainty is based upon...
Regardless, the 'why' is rather irrelevant. J. Walsh has every right to take the steps he has taken and contrary to what staff here believes, he does not owe them, or anyone else, an explanation or w/e.
The troll article published is a good reason enough, what more is there to talk about?
For a studio that has to resort to cash shops to fund development, deal with a smaller market, play from behind as much as they are. You can only do the "we will do this on our own" so much. You have to learn how to deal with these sort of things. What happens if pc gamer gives them a negative review? Will they be cut off as well? Can he tactfully dispute claims without a tantrum? Is he even willing to do that now?
I think I would have gained more respect for him if he would have said, "hey guys saw your piece about my game I would like to respond to that."
You can only burn so many bridges before you isolate yourself on an island by yourself.
For a studio that has to resort to cash shops to fund development, deal with a smaller market, play from behind as much as they are. You can only do the "we will do this on our own" so much. You have to learn how to deal with these sort of things. What happens if pc gamer gives them a negative review? Will they be cut off as well? Can he tactfully dispute claims without a tantrum? Is he even willing to do that now?
I think I would have gained more respect for him if he would have said, "hey guys saw your piece about my game I would like to respond to that."
You can only burn so many bridges before you isolate yourself on an island by yourself.
I was never arguing the steps J.Walsh has taken.
It goes back to my point about a community(and staff) here - any disagreement isn't tolerated, J.Walsh must talk to site staff about the 'issue', he must swallow the trolling from gaming site, he must do w/e, etc. etc.
Do I agree with his reaction? No. But I respect that and do see reasons why he did that.
@Gdemami we get it, you're a CoE fanboy. You like to try and be sly about it, but you're quite-out-of-the-ordinary multiple posts here in this thread has let the cat outta the bag.
No actually he isn't. It's just that whenever a scenario comes up where players are protesting against a company, he will side with the company and imply that the players don't deserve any better.
Sayingthat these sites"indirectly requested not to have any exclusive access" for not liking the game implies that one has to be a shill to get exclusive access to their game.
I must say that it is suspicious that they haven't released any thing substantial. If you had something that you were proud of, you would show it, right? Since, they show nothing, i would be very skeptical about what is going on.
On another angle, Caspian is certainly undergoing a ton of stress, so i feel for him as someone who is about to start a business, im not justifying bad behavior but good people can be pushed to bad behavior based on the amount of stress they are undergoing.
Just highlighting the human emotion part of it.
Also, i'd love a moderator to reply to a post of mine, it shows that they either have to disagree or have to agree so your post must have been poignant.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
The funny part to me is that we were the site he chose to use as the announcement platform for CoE. I was more than happy to oblige. A big ambitious MMO, even if it was using crowdfunding, hadn't quite outworn its welcome then. And the studio he had started to build, while using KS to bring in more staff funding seemed fine too. The game still, when it was announce, sounds like a ton of fun.
But here were are in 2019, with no real end in sight to development, and every one that's seen the game from our team here at shows hasn't been overly impressed. It's sort of our job to question what's going on.
and 11 others.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
For a studio that has to resort to cash shops to fund development, deal with a smaller market, play from behind as much as they are. You can only do the "we will do this on our own" so much. You have to learn how to deal with these sort of things. What happens if pc gamer gives them a negative review? Will they be cut off as well? Can he tactfully dispute claims without a tantrum? Is he even willing to do that now?
I think I would have gained more respect for him if he would have said, "hey guys saw your piece about my game I would like to respond to that."
You can only burn so many bridges before you isolate yourself on an island by yourself.
I was never arguing the steps J.Walsh has taken.
It goes back to my point about a community(and staff) here - any disagreement isn't tolerated, J.Walsh must talk to site staff about the 'issue', he must swallow the trolling from gaming site, he must do w/e, etc. etc.
Do I agree with his reaction? No. But I respect that and do see reasons why he did that.
But on the same token, he is doing the same. Anyone who doesn't see the brilliance in the odd moves they have made has been cut off. If I remember right in the piece Tim wrote was he not a backer as well?
Like I said earlier, SC has dealt with more criticism, more bad press, more negative comments and yet they have been addressed to some extent even if I don't agree with the reasoning behind it at least they were addressed professionally.
Also, if mmorpg was the only site cut, that's one thing. But it wasn't so its not about "this" community. Its about not agreeing with him or questioning him. Years ago you can say any press is good press, in the video game industry its not really working that way now. And when there is very strong merit to these concerns and no answers in sight communities will jump on it now. CoE has done nothing to answer legit questions, this is not an answer to a bad community, its a rash reaction which raises more red flags.
@Gdemami we get it, you're a CoE fanboy. You like to try and be sly about it, but you're quite-out-of-the-ordinary multiple posts here in this thread has let the cat outta the bag.
No actually he isn't. It's just that whenever a scenario comes up where players are protesting against a company, he will side with the company and imply that the players don't deserve any better.
It's about ANYTHING not just CoE.
That's noted, but from the posts I've read from him elsewhere, he also seems to be willing to jump into CoE topics to explain why things like abandoning SpatialOS, the mud, or Vox is no big deal and doesn't reflect a studio unable to complete the tasks they set out for themselves. We both know his usual MO is not to create posts that actually explain any portion of his viewpoint unless he's inordinately bothered by the topic at hand.
He hates this community, that much goes beyond this particular title. But he also seems to have a soft spot for this title in particular.
I feel like this is Slapshot's fault for hurting his developer feelings. Slapshot, apologize to the man so we can directly ask for our nonexclusive access. Or indirectly ask for our exclusive access. Point is I want some form of exclusive access, means someone else doesn't have it. Right? Not sure how Caspien-speak works so I'm grasping at straws.
I agree Slapshot is a huge, huge, super duper meanie but I know deep deep in his heart he is feeling broken and contrite....
meanie? he is nothing close to meanie, he has the damn balls to call out a CEO and pose important questions and ask for literal lies to be explained. Caspian promised the world in 2018, it was the worst damn year, nothing was delivered, not even damn gameplay videos. So yeah, we have a right to demand answers where our money is going!
See the smiley? That's the key to understanding my post... lol It wasn't meant to be serious if it wasn't clear enough for you.
Really though this community and the people in it are amazeballs for the most part, and that includes slapshot, which is why I love it so much!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
CU, Crowfall, SC have all had "negativity" directed against them. Each of those has "something" to fall back on. that people can go and look at. As a result discussions are basically about when will the game launch rather than will the game ever launch. Its a subtle threshold to cross but crucial.
CoE arguably hasn't got to that stage. And outbursts such as these suggest it isn't close either. It suggests that buried within the cloud of secrecy all is not well.
And for a game that would - I am sure - like to attract further (crowd)funding that's not a good impression to create.
The funny part to me is that we were the site he chose to use as the announcement platform for CoE. I was more than happy to oblige. A big ambitious MMO, even if it was using crowdfunding, hadn't quite outworn its welcome then. And the studio he had started to build, while using KS to bring in more staff funding seemed fine too. The game still, when it was announce, sounds like a ton of fun.
But here were are in 2019, with no real end in sight to development, and every one that's seen the game from our team here at shows hasn't been overly impressed. It's sort of our job to question what's going on.
What makes it worse is that stuff that he showed off at shows, like their Jousting Demo, weren't even preserved. Just more wasted resources IMHO.
These are my thoughts:
Caspien is not trying to scam anyone Caspien is utterly incompetent as a Project Manager. I do not say this lightly. I say this as someone who regularly runs projects, the last of which was $16M (yes here comes the requisite GDemani LOL) Caspien is a very creative person Caspien is a very poor #1. He needs guidance. I had hope that Vye would be that "adult in the room" but either she has not or he has ignored her. He has even moved her from Producer to Designer (see below). Caspien is very insecure as a leader. Thus his reflexive response when challenged is almost childlike. From his defense of a 2017 launch date (have you seen his Gantt charts), to the silly idea of making a MUD to "speed development", to how he had supposedly already replaced SpatialOS in just a few months with 3 people, to his reaction to Tim's rather mild article... he seems almost childlike to me.
I think most people, even his supporters would be utterly SHOCKED if someone spent the day going through the Kickstarter, articles on here or Massively, and what was posted on his official forums and then wrote down what was said, when it was said, and what the reality turned out to be. It's reflexively excused by some because apparently designing games is hard. Well yeah, a lot of us have hard jobs. But if you are going to take $5.6 million dollars from the public (and counting) you need to have some sort of minimal accountability to them, especially if you want to use the NO REFUNDS shield. So there may not be any laws (or maybe there are...) that mandate this, but that doesn't prevent people from shining a light on it for all to see.
Any "crowdfunded" MMORPG that AVOIDS the 2 biggest MMORPG news sites should absolutely raise the spidey-sense of everyone. That should tell each and every person reading all they need to know.
I must say that it is suspicious that they haven't released any thing substantial. If you had something that you were proud of, you would show it, right? Since, they show nothing, i would be very skeptical about what is going on.
On another angle, Caspian is certainly undergoing a ton of stress, so i feel for him as someone who is about to start a business, im not justifying bad behavior but good people can be pushed to bad behavior based on the amount of stress they are undergoing.
Just highlighting the human emotion part of it.
Also, i'd love a moderator to reply to a post of mine, it shows that they either have to disagree or have to agree so your post must have been poignant.
It is a tough job and gamers are not happy bunnies of the consumer world. But they should have known that when they started; as I said elsewhere about AoC, be honest about the mistakes you have made, tell people what the problems are and you will carry gamers with you. It is not too late for either AoC or CoE to do that.
We want new good quality MMOR{G's so every gamer is rooting for them. Likwise, if they seem to be going down roads that will not lead to a good quality MMORPG how can we do anything but point that out?
...is it? I haven't seen him questioning gaming sites or how they operate their business but I do see quite a lot of questioning how he operates his own one.
If you believe those 'questions' are legit, they are not.
The funny part to me is that we were the site he chose to use as the announcement platform for CoE. I was more than happy to oblige. A big ambitious MMO, even if it was using crowdfunding, hadn't quite outworn its welcome then. And the studio he had started to build, while using KS to bring in more staff funding seemed fine too. The game still, when it was announce, sounds like a ton of fun.
But here were are in 2019, with no real end in sight to development, and every one that's seen the game from our team here at shows hasn't been overly impressed. It's sort of our job to question what's going on.
If youre going to be 'fair and balanced' it should be your 'job' to also preach caution. And question BEFORE you promote. Its easy after the fact to pile on now a lot harder to look at stuff during the honeymoon phase and when youre getting paid. I now these places need that money but it isnt out of line for people to question the practice.
But you sort of alluded to it yourself. Consciously or subconsciously you guys felt (because you were the chosen ones) to 'protect' them from criticism. And just because a game 'sounds like tons of fun' isnt an excuse to blindly let them blather on about stuff a lot of people were cautionary about.
3 years and nothing to show for it were to be expected. I remember it well, like I said it sticks in my memory this one BECAUSE of the way it was handled. I have railed and bashed am ore than a few games, but CoE was THE game that everyone here took exception to.
I have said worse stuff about SC (I guess they have REALLY gone past the point of protection) even worse than the stuff that got purged. Because the stuff that got purged (from what I remember) was mostly about charging people for 'lives' and their monetization outline.
I think that was when I first coined the phrase "Chris Roberts clone', not in gameplay but how they approached ways to make money.
Hey its OK to like the idea of a game or how it sounds but the recent history of (every) game to come out the past oh I dont know decade, is to expect failure, well maybe not failure but definitely disappointment. Especially with the multi player games.
When was the last DECENT (let alone good or very good) multi player game to come out, kickstarter or otherwise?
Ashes of Creation is in the same boat. It was announced right around the same time as CoE. But they at least have SOMETHING to show for it. But then again is a BR better than vaporware? Technically I guess, but most people who pledged will play both the same amount of time....
...is it? I haven't seen him questioning gaming sites or how they operate their business but I do see quite a lot of questioning how he operates his own one.
If you believe those 'questions' are legit, they are not.
Then I guess you haven't looked very hard. Even before Tim's article, he started talking about how 3rd party forums only made money by driving clicks and they didn't care about the users. Only he, Caspien, truly had their best wishes at heart.
Also, maybe this part eludes you... but neither I nor any reader, as far as I know, has ever paid MMORPG.COM a single cent to participate on the site (although I'd support an optional sub). SBS has raise $5,600,000 from people that paid for their game. Not to discuss this would be gross negligence IMHO.
...is it? I haven't seen him questioning gaming sites or how they operate their business but I do see quite a lot of questioning how he operates his own one.
If you believe those 'questions' are legit, they are not.
Questioning how someone operates his business is what happens when they beg for the capital on the promise of keeping everyone involved.
Maybe on your planet kickstarter works differently?
and 3 others.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
...is it? I haven't seen him questioning gaming sites or how they operate their business but I do see quite a lot of questioning how he operates his own one.
If you believe those 'questions' are legit, they are not. [my emphasis]
...is it? I haven't seen him questioning gaming sites or how they operate their business but I do see quite a lot of questioning how he operates his own one.
If you believe those 'questions' are legit, they are not. [my emphasis]
Why though?
Maybe because it was obvious from day 1 that he didn't have any of the required background to run a company, manage a large project, or design a game. Even something that he supposedly had a background in, web development, he stuffed up enormously.
The risible time line, the impossibly low budget, and the dodgy communication style may also have contributed to the feeling of inevitable failure.
Then there was the unbelievable line about selling his 'dream home' to fund the project, the dodgy geographic claims. Nothing about this project was ever believable.
Say what you like about Chris Roberts (and I have ), he has a track record for making games, running large projects, and successfully operating a company.
...is it? I haven't seen him questioning gaming sites or how they operate their business but I do see quite a lot of questioning how he operates his own one.
If you believe those 'questions' are legit, they are not.
Kickstarters are nothing more than community funded projects. Community members here are backers. When you have a plan out for a year and in 365 days you don't hit one of them, when you waste time to create a demo and toss it for the heck of it. Is asking what gives? Why? how? really so bad? Is questioning the progress really an issue? Again how many of us question the release, progress, future of SC? Again they do not cut out entire sites. They is a huge size difference in funds and CoE needs all the help it can get, not isolation.
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
Comments
I think I would have gained more respect for him if he would have said, "hey guys saw your piece about my game I would like to respond to that."
You can only burn so many bridges before you isolate yourself on an island by yourself.
It goes back to my point about a community(and staff) here - any disagreement isn't tolerated, J.Walsh must talk to site staff about the 'issue', he must swallow the trolling from gaming site, he must do w/e, etc. etc.
Do I agree with his reaction? No. But I respect that and do see reasons why he did that.
It's just that whenever a scenario comes up where players are protesting against a company, he will side with the company and imply that the players don't deserve any better.
It's about ANYTHING not just CoE.
I must say that it is suspicious that they haven't released any thing substantial. If you had something that you were proud of, you would show it, right? Since, they show nothing, i would be very skeptical about what is going on.
On another angle, Caspian is certainly undergoing a ton of stress, so i feel for him as someone who is about to start a business, im not justifying bad behavior but good people can be pushed to bad behavior based on the amount of stress they are undergoing.
Just highlighting the human emotion part of it.
Also, i'd love a moderator to reply to a post of mine, it shows that they either have to disagree or have to agree so your post must have been poignant.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Try to be excellent to everyone you meet. You never know what someone else has seen or endured.
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Like I said earlier, SC has dealt with more criticism, more bad press, more negative comments and yet they have been addressed to some extent even if I don't agree with the reasoning behind it at least they were addressed professionally.
Also, if mmorpg was the only site cut, that's one thing. But it wasn't so its not about "this" community. Its about not agreeing with him or questioning him. Years ago you can say any press is good press, in the video game industry its not really working that way now. And when there is very strong merit to these concerns and no answers in sight communities will jump on it now. CoE has done nothing to answer legit questions, this is not an answer to a bad community, its a rash reaction which raises more red flags.
He hates this community, that much goes beyond this particular title. But he also seems to have a soft spot for this title in particular.
But I wouldn't have it any other way.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
CoE arguably hasn't got to that stage. And outbursts such as these suggest it isn't close either. It suggests that buried within the cloud of secrecy all is not well.
And for a game that would - I am sure - like to attract further (crowd)funding that's not a good impression to create.
These are my thoughts:
Caspien is not trying to scam anyone
Caspien is utterly incompetent as a Project Manager. I do not say this lightly. I say this as someone who regularly runs projects, the last of which was $16M (yes here comes the requisite GDemani LOL)
Caspien is a very creative person
Caspien is a very poor #1. He needs guidance. I had hope that Vye would be that "adult in the room" but either she has not or he has ignored her. He has even moved her from Producer to Designer (see below).
Caspien is very insecure as a leader. Thus his reflexive response when challenged is almost childlike. From his defense of a 2017 launch date (have you seen his Gantt charts), to the silly idea of making a MUD to "speed development", to how he had supposedly already replaced SpatialOS in just a few months with 3 people, to his reaction to Tim's rather mild article... he seems almost childlike to me.
I think most people, even his supporters would be utterly SHOCKED if someone spent the day going through the Kickstarter, articles on here or Massively, and what was posted on his official forums and then wrote down what was said, when it was said, and what the reality turned out to be. It's reflexively excused by some because apparently designing games is hard. Well yeah, a lot of us have hard jobs. But if you are going to take $5.6 million dollars from the public (and counting) you need to have some sort of minimal accountability to them, especially if you want to use the NO REFUNDS shield. So there may not be any laws (or maybe there are...) that mandate this, but that doesn't prevent people from shining a light on it for all to see.
Any "crowdfunded" MMORPG that AVOIDS the 2 biggest MMORPG news sites should absolutely raise the spidey-sense of everyone. That should tell each and every person reading all they need to know.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
We want new good quality MMOR{G's so every gamer is rooting for them. Likwise, if they seem to be going down roads that will not lead to a good quality MMORPG how can we do anything but point that out?
If you believe those 'questions' are legit, they are not.
But you sort of alluded to it yourself. Consciously or subconsciously you guys felt (because you were the chosen ones) to 'protect' them from criticism. And just because a game 'sounds like tons of fun' isnt an excuse to blindly let them blather on about stuff a lot of people were cautionary about.
3 years and nothing to show for it were to be expected. I remember it well, like I said it sticks in my memory this one BECAUSE of the way it was handled. I have railed and bashed am ore than a few games, but CoE was THE game that everyone here took exception to.
I have said worse stuff about SC (I guess they have REALLY gone past the point of protection) even worse than the stuff that got purged. Because the stuff that got purged (from what I remember) was mostly about charging people for 'lives' and their monetization outline.
I think that was when I first coined the phrase "Chris Roberts clone', not in gameplay but how they approached ways to make money.
Hey its OK to like the idea of a game or how it sounds but the recent history of (every) game to come out the past oh I dont know decade, is to expect failure, well maybe not failure but definitely disappointment. Especially with the multi player games.
When was the last DECENT (let alone good or very good) multi player game to come out, kickstarter or otherwise?
Ashes of Creation is in the same boat. It was announced right around the same time as CoE. But they at least have SOMETHING to show for it. But then again is a BR better than vaporware? Technically I guess, but most people who pledged will play both the same amount of time....
Also, maybe this part eludes you... but neither I nor any reader, as far as I know, has ever paid MMORPG.COM a single cent to participate on the site (although I'd support an optional sub). SBS has raise $5,600,000 from people that paid for their game. Not to discuss this would be gross negligence IMHO.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Maybe on your planet kickstarter works differently?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The risible time line, the impossibly low budget, and the dodgy communication style may also have contributed to the feeling of inevitable failure.
Then there was the unbelievable line about selling his 'dream home' to fund the project, the dodgy geographic claims. Nothing about this project was ever believable.
Say what you like about Chris Roberts (and I have