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New Caspien tantrum about news coverage

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,057
    There are no other valid arguments against Kickstarter. There are only made up arguments based on false assumptions such as "you bought a product", which you didn't. You donated some money to a group of people on the internet to attempt something very risky.

    Expressing skepticism about a projects feasibility is perfectly fine but has nothing to do with Kickstarter principle. People are free to donate as they wish.
    No that's utter bullshit.  Pure and simple.

    There are promises made by the developer.  The expectation is that the developer will fulfill these promises.  Time is just ONE of those.

    For instance, Caspien literally PROMISED in his kickstarter to PUBLISH and UPDATE his schedule on the website. (yes... literally promised.  Quote at the bottom).  This was a simple promise, easy to keep, yet not even close to being fulfilled.

    Others include things like using a certain technology (SpatialOS) to enable them to complete something and then suddenly changing.   Another would be not mentioning ANYWHERE on the main Kickstarter page that the funds were not the whole amount and that the game would take another 2-3 million (which was also bullshit as we are at $5.5 and not even close).

    So yeah... your claim is utter bullshit and easily disproven. All of the above are quite valid complaints which have nothing to do with just being late.  There is simply zero accountability and THIS is the biggest flaw with Kickstarter.

    Quote from main Kickstarter Page:

    Soulbound Studios promises to:

    • Publish & update our schedule on the CoE website 


    Kyleran said:
    No, there is a promise to attempt to complete the project, that is all.

    Publishing deadlines is just fluffy nice to haves but ultimately has no relevance as to whether the project is completed.
    Part of their whole sales pitch was to be very transparent and open with development to be different from others.  They have been anything but that so they did sell a promise which they have failed with.  Well unless you paid 10k+ and are a part of the double secret special forums.
    Still has nothing to do with my original statement:

    This is actually one of the best (only?) arguments against backing a crowdfunded game; it takes so long that you might not be interested once it is done.

    You guys are so busy circle-jerking to your collective hate that any comment is construed as... I don't even know what.
    You appear to be trying to build a strawman about kickstarters in general, and accuse others of focusing / hating only on COE.

    I raised valid concerns about whether or not a backer feels the team is capable of delivering the project, if it is properly funded, or if the goals are even in the realm of possibility yet you ignore, because it dispels your argument?

    MadFrenchies comment pissed you off, so rephrased,  in what reality are the points being raised invalid, clearly not the one most of the rest of us reside in.

    (Though I know of at least one other resident in there with you.)

    ;)


    Just to be clear, Staal is right to say you're strawmanning if you're arguing CoE specific stuff in response to Staal's point about whether crowdfunding MMO's in general is "wrong/bad".

    But it's also a good point that nobody was saying that crowdfunding in general is wrong, just that CoE is fucking up hard.
    He's not right. CoE IS a Kickstarter.  Its the subject of this very thread.  I have problems with other Kickstarters as well.  We can start a general "Kickstarter" thread if we want... plenty to talk about.  But as I said multiple times, in general there is ZERO accountability.  Not just regarding time as Staal stated, but others like stating a certain technology would be used as the fabric the project would be built on and then later scratching it.   That is a MAJOR change in the project.  In this case it was SpatialOS.  For another project maybe it would be something else.  That is not a Strawman.  The fact that a Kickstarter can do this with no accountability to the backers is a major Kickstarter flaw.   Same thing with not posting on the Kickstarter main page that the amount of funding was not the full amount needed.   Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.  It actually seems to fly in the face of the Kickstarter rules, but again there does not appear to be any accountability.

    Here is what Kickstarter says:

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish. 

    --------------

    But there is no accountability (that word again). Here we have a project that misstated the time it would take by multiple years and counting, the amount of money needed, the source of the money, the "fabric" the game would be built on (technology)...


    ... and none of that matters.  It's a problem with CoE, but also a problem with Kickstarter in general because if Kickstarter was functioning properly this type of behavior should never be allowed.


    So Strawman?  Hardly.  Please do not belittle actual tangible arguments with dismissive words like that.

    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    Slapshot1188 said:
    Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.
    How is that a flaw? No one is forcing anyone to drop money on KS project.
    parrotpholk
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,057
    Gdemami said:
    Slapshot1188 said:
    Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.
    How is that a flaw? No one is forcing anyone to drop money on KS project.
    If I ordered tickets to a concert on Ticketmaster for a charity concert and then the concert date was changed, the performers changed, and the location changed... and there was no recourse with Ticketmaster... would that be a problem? 

    tweedledumb99craftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited February 14
    would that be a problem? 

    ...dunno but since this is not the case, it is irrelevant.

    The terms of kickstarter are clear and easy to read for everyone - you donate money to the developer and in return you get a trinket and promise to do their best to deviler the game.

    You don't like it? No problem, just don't pledge or turn to some other platfrom.

    Again, where is the flaw?
    parrotpholkcraftseekerStaalBurgher
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,057
    edited February 14
    Gdemami said:
    would that be a problem? 

    ...dunno but since this is not the case, it is irrelevant.

    The terms of kickstarter are clear and easy to read for everyone - you donate money to the developer and in return you get a trinket and promise to do their best to deviler the game.

    You don't like it? No problem, just don't pledge or turn to some other platfrom.

    Again, where is a flaw?
    The FLAW.. is that they claim to have rules.  You should read those rules.  There is simply no repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

    That is what we call... a flaw.

    tweedledumb99craftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    Slapshot1188 said:
    There is simply to repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

    ...what rules were broken?
    parrotpholkcraftseekerStaalBurgher
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,157
    Gdemami said:
    would that be a problem? 

    ...dunno but since this is not the case, it is irrelevant.

    The terms of kickstarter are clear and easy to read for everyone - you donate money to the developer and in return you get a trinket and promise to do their best to deviler the game.

    You don't like it? No problem, just don't pledge or turn to some other platfrom.

    Again, where is the flaw?
    There definitely is a flaw:

    Zero accountability.

    Willing to overlook it?

    It's your money.
    Slapshot1188MendelcraftseekerTorrsk

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    edited February 14
    There are no other valid arguments against Kickstarter. There are only made up arguments based on false assumptions such as "you bought a product", which you didn't. You donated some money to a group of people on the internet to attempt something very risky.

    Expressing skepticism about a projects feasibility is perfectly fine but has nothing to do with Kickstarter principle. People are free to donate as they wish.
    /snip

    Just to be clear, Staal is right to say you're strawmanning if you're arguing CoE specific stuff in response to Staal's point about whether crowdfunding MMO's in general is "wrong/bad".

    But it's also a good point that nobody was saying that crowdfunding in general is wrong, just that CoE is fucking up hard.
    He's not right. CoE IS a Kickstarter.  Its the subject of this very thread.  I have problems with other Kickstarters as well.  We can start a general "Kickstarter" thread if we want... plenty to talk about.  But as I said multiple times, in general there is ZERO accountability.  Not just regarding time as Staal stated, but others like stating a certain technology would be used as the fabric the project would be built on and then later scratching it.   That is a MAJOR change in the project.  In this case it was SpatialOS.  For another project maybe it would be something else.  That is not a Strawman.  The fact that a Kickstarter can do this with no accountability to the backers is a major Kickstarter flaw.   Same thing with not posting on the Kickstarter main page that the amount of funding was not the full amount needed.   Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.  It actually seems to fly in the face of the Kickstarter rules, but again there does not appear to be any accountability.

    Here is what Kickstarter says:

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish. 

    --------------

    But there is no accountability (that word again). Here we have a project that misstated the time it would take by multiple years and counting, the amount of money needed, the source of the money, the "fabric" the game would be built on (technology)...


    ... and none of that matters.  It's a problem with CoE, but also a problem with Kickstarter in general because if Kickstarter was functioning properly this type of behavior should never be allowed.


    So Strawman?  Hardly.  Please do not belittle actual tangible arguments with dismissive words like that.

    EDIT: leaving original up, but see edit below ((No, it is a strawman when someone is arguing against the Kickstarter point with CoE specific stuff only, stuff that's about CoE's failures and not about Kickstarter/crowdfunding.

    If you find it belittling, okay, but it is strawmanning to argue that Kickstarting is bad only by citing how CoE fails at it.

    Your point about zero accountability is an interesting one, and I agree there's flaws with Kickstarter, but that's not the subject of my post that you quoted, which, again, is that it's flawed to use only CoE's failures as an argument for why Kickstarter in general is bad, so please don't strawman me.))

    EDIT: I missed this in your original point, but it seems that you're using the above accountability issues with CoE to point to flaws in Kickstarter generally, and I agree that that's not strawmanning.

    However, it is kind of missing Staal's point and the point of Kickstarter, which is to donate to good-faith efforts for stuff you want to see happen and expecting that you're not outright scammed (CoE has not scammed anyone... and @all yes I mean actually scammed, plz no bullshit).

    You're also reading into "mislead" in a questionable way (and this is me questioning it) by pointing to missing deadlines, and inconsistency with schedule updates, as though either is a form of misleading or misrepresenting facts. Doing either of these is NOT misleading or misrepresenting, gamer outrage notwithstanding.

    A future estimated milestone (whether for features, the final product, or specific updates on the above two) is not a "fact."

    If they had said they had already integrated SpatialOS before they had, then that is a misleading or misrepresentation.

    Edit 2: It makes sense to demand accountability for the project to launch in less time than it's taken for late traditionally funded MMO's to launch (approximately under 9.5 years e.g. for ESO to get to being a worthwhile game and FFXIV's A Realm Reborn), and for all the main pillar features to be in the game in some form.

    Taking every detail about the timelines, process, underlying tech, and every single piecemeal feature as promises written in stone that demand accountability doesn't work. And I think it's a terrible idea to have that rigid and far-reaching idea of accountability for Kickstarted MMO's, even if holding that idea is done in good faith, which I'm a bit skeptical of.

    StaalBurgher
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited February 14
    laserit said:
    There definitely is a flaw:

    Zero accountability.

    Willing to overlook it?

    It's your money.
    That is no flaw, just your preference the terms of the deal were different.

    Again, if you don't like the terms, just don't pledge. Simple as that.
    parrotpholkcraftseeker
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,157
    Gdemami said:
    laserit said:
    There definitely is a flaw:

    Zero accountability.

    Willing to overlook it?

    It's your money.
    That is no flaw, just your preference the terms of the deal were different.

    Again, if you don't like the terms, just don't pledge. Simple as that.
    So are you saying that deals and/or terms of don't have flaws?

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,057
    There are no other valid arguments against Kickstarter. There are only made up arguments based on false assumptions such as "you bought a product", which you didn't. You donated some money to a group of people on the internet to attempt something very risky.

    Expressing skepticism about a projects feasibility is perfectly fine but has nothing to do with Kickstarter principle. People are free to donate as they wish.
    No that's utter bullshit.  Pure and simple.

    There are promises made by the developer.  The expectation is that the developer will fulfill these promises.  Time is just ONE of those.

    For instance, Caspien literally PROMISED in his kickstarter to PUBLISH and UPDATE his schedule on the website. (yes... literally promised.  Quote at the bottom).  This was a simple promise, easy to keep, yet not even close to being fulfilled.

    Others include things like using a certain technology (SpatialOS) to enable them to complete something and then suddenly changing.   Another would be not mentioning ANYWHERE on the main Kickstarter page that the funds were not the whole amount and that the game would take another 2-3 million (which was also bullshit as we are at $5.5 and not even close).

    So yeah... your claim is utter bullshit and easily disproven. All of the above are quite valid complaints which have nothing to do with just being late.  There is simply zero accountability and THIS is the biggest flaw with Kickstarter.

    Quote from main Kickstarter Page:

    Soulbound Studios promises to:

    • Publish & update our schedule on the CoE website 


    Kyleran said:
    No, there is a promise to attempt to complete the project, that is all.

    Publishing deadlines is just fluffy nice to haves but ultimately has no relevance as to whether the project is completed.
    Part of their whole sales pitch was to be very transparent and open with development to be different from others.  They have been anything but that so they did sell a promise which they have failed with.  Well unless you paid 10k+ and are a part of the double secret special forums.
    Still has nothing to do with my original statement:

    This is actually one of the best (only?) arguments against backing a crowdfunded game; it takes so long that you might not be interested once it is done.

    You guys are so busy circle-jerking to your collective hate that any comment is construed as... I don't even know what.
    You appear to be trying to build a strawman about kickstarters in general, and accuse others of focusing / hating only on COE.

    I raised valid concerns about whether or not a backer feels the team is capable of delivering the project, if it is properly funded, or if the goals are even in the realm of possibility yet you ignore, because it dispels your argument?

    MadFrenchies comment pissed you off, so rephrased,  in what reality are the points being raised invalid, clearly not the one most of the rest of us reside in.

    (Though I know of at least one other resident in there with you.)

    ;)


    Just to be clear, Staal is right to say you're strawmanning if you're arguing CoE specific stuff in response to Staal's point about whether crowdfunding MMO's in general is "wrong/bad".

    But it's also a good point that nobody was saying that crowdfunding in general is wrong, just that CoE is fucking up hard.
    He's not right. CoE IS a Kickstarter.  Its the subject of this very thread.  I have problems with other Kickstarters as well.  We can start a general "Kickstarter" thread if we want... plenty to talk about.  But as I said multiple times, in general there is ZERO accountability.  Not just regarding time as Staal stated, but others like stating a certain technology would be used as the fabric the project would be built on and then later scratching it.   That is a MAJOR change in the project.  In this case it was SpatialOS.  For another project maybe it would be something else.  That is not a Strawman.  The fact that a Kickstarter can do this with no accountability to the backers is a major Kickstarter flaw.   Same thing with not posting on the Kickstarter main page that the amount of funding was not the full amount needed.   Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.  It actually seems to fly in the face of the Kickstarter rules, but again there does not appear to be any accountability.

    Here is what Kickstarter says:

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish. 

    --------------

    But there is no accountability (that word again). Here we have a project that misstated the time it would take by multiple years and counting, the amount of money needed, the source of the money, the "fabric" the game would be built on (technology)...


    ... and none of that matters.  It's a problem with CoE, but also a problem with Kickstarter in general because if Kickstarter was functioning properly this type of behavior should never be allowed.


    So Strawman?  Hardly.  Please do not belittle actual tangible arguments with dismissive words like that.

    No, it is a strawman when someone is arguing against the Kickstarter point with CoE specific stuff only, stuff that's about CoE's failures and not about Kickstarter/crowdfunding.

    If you find it belittling, okay, but it is strawmanning to argue that Kickstarting is bad only by citing how CoE fails at it.

    Your point about zero accountability is an interesting one, and I agree there's flaws with Kickstarter, but that's not the subject of my post that you quoted, which, again, is that it's flawed to use only CoE's failures as an argument for why Kickstarter in general is bad, so please don't strawman me.
    Arguing that Kickstarter has flaws by pointing out flaws in a Kickstarter is the opposite of a Strawman.  Do you want me to go into StarCitizen? Or Greedmonger? Or Pathfinder Online?  Not the place for that discussion but start a thread in the Pub and I'd be happy to do so
    Gdemamicraftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited February 14
    laserit said:
    So are you saying that deals and/or terms of don't have flaws?
    ...I guess they do but not in this context and case.
    parrotpholkcraftseeker
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    Arguing that Kickstarter has flaws by pointing out flaws in a Kickstarter is the opposite of a Strawman.
    ...just because you don't like the terms does make them flawed, you are just pulling strawmans as always.
    parrotpholktweedledumb99craftseeker
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,057
    Gdemami said:
    Slapshot1188 said:
    There is simply to repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

    ...what rules were broken?
    I literally posted one of their rules and what was broken a few posts above... Do you read Bro?

    Seriously...

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish.

    -------------

    That is an actual posted rule.

    CoE did not show that the amount being asked for was not the full amount of the project on the KS main page. KS actually required this.  This was pointed out when it was revealed, but it was not revealed until AFTER the campaign closed.  No action was taken.   Is that clear enough example of a rule that was broken with no accountability?


     


    craftseeker

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,157
    edited February 14
    Gdemami said:
    laserit said:
    So are you saying that deals and/or terms of don't have flaws?
    ...I guess they do but not in this context and case.
    A deal and/or terms can be just as flawed by what it doesn't say as well as what it does say.

    peter piper picked a pickle ;)
    craftseeker

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    edited February 14

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish.

    -------------

    That is an actual posted rule.

    CoE did not show that the amount being asked for was not the full amount of the project on the KS main page. KS actually required this.  This was pointed out when it was revealed, but it was not revealed until AFTER the campaign closed.  No action was taken.   Is that clear enough example of a rule that was broken with no accountability?


    That rule says nothing about necessity to post a "full amount" of the project on KS main page. Where do you get that?

    So again, what rule was broken?
    parrotpholkcraftseekertweedledumb99
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    Gdemami said:
    Slapshot1188 said:
    There is simply to repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

    ...what rules were broken?
    I literally posted one of their rules and what was broken a few posts above... Do you read Bro?

    Seriously...

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish.

    -------------

    That is an actual posted rule.

    CoE did not show that the amount being asked for was not the full amount of the project on the KS main page. KS actually required this.  This was pointed out when it was revealed, but it was not revealed until AFTER the campaign closed.  No action was taken.   Is that clear enough example of a rule that was broken with no accountability?


     


    That's the first example I've seen of a rule-break by CoE, and it only counts as one if they knew beforehand that the funding wouldn't be enough. Did they?
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    laserit said:
    A deal and/or terms can be just as flawed by what it doesn't say as well as what it does say.

    ...ok? And how is that related again or do you just make some general, to the topic irrelevant comment?
    tweedledumb99
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 6,157
    Gdemami said:
    laserit said:
    A deal and/or terms can be just as flawed by what it doesn't say as well as what it does say.

    ...ok? And how is that related again or do you just make some general, to the topic irrelevant comment?
    A one sided deal is flawed. The beneficiary might disagree.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    laserit said:
    A one sided deal is flawed.

    It is not.
    laseritparrotpholktweedledumb99
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    edited February 14
    /snip
    He's not right. CoE IS a Kickstarter.  Its the subject of this very thread.  I have problems with other Kickstarters as well.  We can start a general "Kickstarter" thread if we want... plenty to talk about.  But as I said multiple times, in general there is ZERO accountability.  Not just regarding time as Staal stated, but others like stating a certain technology would be used as the fabric the project would be built on and then later scratching it.   That is a MAJOR change in the project.  In this case it was SpatialOS.  For another project maybe it would be something else.  That is not a Strawman.  The fact that a Kickstarter can do this with no accountability to the backers is a major Kickstarter flaw.   Same thing with not posting on the Kickstarter main page that the amount of funding was not the full amount needed.   Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.  It actually seems to fly in the face of the Kickstarter rules, but again there does not appear to be any accountability.

    Here is what Kickstarter says:

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish. 

    --------------

    But there is no accountability (that word again). Here we have a project that misstated the time it would take by multiple years and counting, the amount of money needed, the source of the money, the "fabric" the game would be built on (technology)...


    ... and none of that matters.  It's a problem with CoE, but also a problem with Kickstarter in general because if Kickstarter was functioning properly this type of behavior should never be allowed.


    So Strawman?  Hardly.  Please do not belittle actual tangible arguments with dismissive words like that.

    No, it is a strawman when someone is arguing against the Kickstarter point with CoE specific stuff only, stuff that's about CoE's failures and not about Kickstarter/crowdfunding.

    If you find it belittling, okay, but it is strawmanning to argue that Kickstarting is bad only by citing how CoE fails at it.

    Your point about zero accountability is an interesting one, and I agree there's flaws with Kickstarter, but that's not the subject of my post that you quoted, which, again, is that it's flawed to use only CoE's failures as an argument for why Kickstarter in general is bad, so please don't strawman me.
    Arguing that Kickstarter has flaws by pointing out flaws in a Kickstarter is the opposite of a Strawman.  Do you want me to go into StarCitizen? Or Greedmonger? Or Pathfinder Online?  Not the place for that discussion but start a thread in the Pub and I'd be happy to do so
    See my edits, a TL;DR of those edits is:

    I agree you're (probably) not strawmanning, but you're, at best, misunderstanding the rules of Kickstarter.

    And I still think your criticisms of CoE don't hold much water as demonstrations of Kickstarter's flaws, because:

    - missing deadlines for info-updates, features, or the launch is NOT misleading or a misrepresentation of facts or a flaw with Kickstarter, this is a part of reality of imperfect project management for games, and

    - changing the amount of money needed is only misleading if they knew they'd need more beforehand (not knowing beforehand means they made a good faith effort, and, after the kickstarter, discovered they'd need more funding).

    And again, I'm not commenting on whether Kickstarter has flaws, I'm commenting on whether your specific criticisms of CoE are true ways they've violated of Kickstarters rules that have gone unaccounted-for/unpunished (and are thus proof of Kickstarters flaws).

    And I'm saying CoE hasn't broken those rules (though maybe the total funding requirement one they have broken? But I'd need to see evidence that they knew they'd need more money before the kickstarter to believe that rule was broken).
    StaalBurgher
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    edited February 14
    Gdemami said:
    Slapshot1188 said:
    There is simply to repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

    ...what rules were broken?
    I literally posted one of their rules and what was broken a few posts above... Do you read Bro?

    Seriously...

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish.

    -------------

    That is an actual posted rule.

    CoE did not show that the amount being asked for was not the full amount of the project on the KS main page. KS actually required this.  This was pointed out when it was revealed, but it was not revealed until AFTER the campaign closed.  No action was taken.   Is that clear enough example of a rule that was broken with no accountability?


     


    And until someone proves definitively that 80%+ of games launch within the originally scheduled time, I'm gonna say that missed timelines is an unsolved problem within game development and therefore missed deadlines are not a Kickstarter-specific flaw.

    Also would need to see proof that 80%+ of games in development don't get more funding than originally planned when they run into unforeseen problems.
    StaalBurgher
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,057
    Gdemami said:
    Slapshot1188 said:
    There is simply to repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

    ...what rules were broken?
    I literally posted one of their rules and what was broken a few posts above... Do you read Bro?

    Seriously...

    Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

    Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish.

    -------------

    That is an actual posted rule.

    CoE did not show that the amount being asked for was not the full amount of the project on the KS main page. KS actually required this.  This was pointed out when it was revealed, but it was not revealed until AFTER the campaign closed.  No action was taken.   Is that clear enough example of a rule that was broken with no accountability?


     


    That's the first example I've seen of a rule-break by CoE, and it only counts as one if they knew beforehand that the funding wouldn't be enough. Did they?
    Yes they did.  See here:

    Massively OP: The sticking points seem to be the Kickstarter FAQ line that states, “The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project” and the fact that COE’s Kickstarter verbiage itself doesn’t appear to mention that the $900K sought wasn’t the full amount (it’s buried in the 8000+ comments). […] What do you say to those who argue the original funding goal as stated in the Kickstarter was misleading?

    Jeromy Walsh: 

    Snip 

    Unfortunately, and what this whole thing is about, is we assumed the fact that we were going to be seeking additional funds was common knowledge and somehow it didn’t make it onto our Kickstarter page. It wasn’t intentional. But it happened. While we regret that, it ultimately doesn’t change anything. The commitment we made to our backers is, “you provide us the Kickstarter funds we need, and we commit to delivering you the game.” That hasn’t changed, as we stand by the same commitment today. Regardless of whether other people realized we needed additional funds or not, what’s important is that we did, and we made that commitment to them with that in mind. We stand firm in our commitment.


    —————-

    Note that when this was brought to light they closed refunds at the same time:

    What about the new refund policy? Will you change your mind and offer refunds to those folks?

    First, I want to say it was a complete coincidence that we announced our refund policy going forward in the same update where we evidently made people aware we’re still looking for money from investors, etc. Beginning early September we started telling people who contacted us that we were no longer offering refunds. We felt 90 days from the close of Kickstarter was a sufficient cooldown period and any requests that came in after that our answer was no.

    We made it explicit in this update because we’d previously said we would let people know what our refund policy going forward would be, before opening the store. And, making the decision we ultimately did came down to a debate between the stigma and perception behind not allowing refunds, and the risk involved in not having a stable bottom line. In the end, we decided it was better to risk putting people off by having a “No refund” policy, than having people pledge, us make decisions based on our current funds, and then having that money taken away.

    With respect to offering refunds again, the answer is no. You see, this whole thing is ultimately an issue of perceived risk vs. real risk. For those people who weren’t aware, or didn’t realize that we were raising additional money aside from Kickstarter, there’s now a perceived risk to losing their pledge money that wasn’t there before. But as I said, we knew that we were raising other money, so the real risk to their pledge isn’t any higher today than it was back in May.

    That being said, if people react to this perceived increase in risk, and start requesting refunds, our principle goes down, we’ve got less money to develop with, and that creates *real* risk for everyone – us, the people who knew about our need to raise additional funding, and those who didn’t, but who understand and are ok with it.

    In the end, offering refunds to those who have a higher perceived risk today, only creates more real risk for everyone going forward.

    Gdemamitweedledumb99Torrsk

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  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    edited February 14
    TL;DR of my TL;DR is that games are hard to make, good games are harder, most games need more money and time than originally planned (and get both), and therefore these problems are not specific to Kickstarter but are game-dev problems generally.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,687
    “The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project” and the fact that COE’s Kickstarter verbiage itself doesn’t appear to mention that the $900K sought wasn’t the full amount (it’s buried in the 8000+ comments).
    The "full amount" is just your insertion.

    An amount stated on KS page is just an amount they need per KS project, whether they need more overall money is a non-factor.

    Troll.
    tweedledumb99
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