New Caspien tantrum about news coverage

MadFrenchie

Mendel said:

StaalBurgher said:

Kyleran said:

You appear to be trying to build a strawman about kickstarters in general, and accuse others of focusing / hating only on COE.

I raised valid concerns about whether or not a backer feels the team is capable of delivering the project, if it is properly funded, or if the goals are even in the realm of possibility yet you ignore, because it dispels your argument?

MadFrenchies comment pissed you off, so rephrased,  in what reality are the points being raised invalid, clearly not the one most of the rest of us reside in.

(Though I know of at least one other resident in there with you.)

Those aren't arguments against Kickstarter. They are arguments against COE. There is the strawman.

Okay.  Even though you are the one who injected Kickstarter into this discussion.

An argument against Kickstarter (and crowd-funding in general).  A developer attempts to raise money from individuals by encouraging the individuals to believe they are *investing* in their project without providing the same degree of accountability and return as any other financial investment.  This can be used, in some cases, to deceive the individual, and may be fraudulent.

"Accountability??  Wot's that, precious?!?!" - these crowdfunding apologist

Kyleran

BillMurphy said:

The best/weirdest part about all this is that I've only ever tried to help the team there with coverage. We NEED good MMOs to thrive. CoE was REVEALED here in a long series of articles. I want this game to be good and successful, because I'm both a fan of the genre, and I love what they're trying to do.

BUT. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop my columnists or our readers from voicing their opinions by censoring either of them.

You win the Internetz today Bill!

Kyleran

StaalBurgher said:

Kyleran said:

You appear to be trying to build a strawman about kickstarters in general, and accuse others of focusing / hating only on COE.

I raised valid concerns about whether or not a backer feels the team is capable of delivering the project, if it is properly funded, or if the goals are even in the realm of possibility yet you ignore, because it dispels your argument?

MadFrenchies comment pissed you off, so rephrased,  in what reality are the points being raised invalid, clearly not the one most of the rest of us reside in.

(Though I know of at least one other resident in there with you.)

Those aren't arguments against Kickstarter. They are arguments against COE. There is the strawman.

They are arguments directed at any and all MMORPG kick starters, of which COE is one.

Same applies to CU where I showed even though I had decent reason to believe promises might be kept, clearly things haven't worked out.

Same questions apply to any other KSer, games, new hard goods or otherwise.

Someone puts up a crowd funding effort for flying cars or personal jet packs you can be sure I'm going to want to see a demo of the anti-gravity tech, PhDs of engineering team along with their Nobel prizes for their discovery.

Again, you continue to deflect, you're beat and you know it, time to withdraw gracefully while still possible. 

Slapshot1188

StaalBurgher said:

Slapshot1188 said:

StaalBurgher said:

No, there is a promise to attempt to complete the project, that is all.

Publishing deadlines is just fluffy nice to haves but ultimately has no relevance as to whether the project is completed.

Again.. thats bullshit.

I literally showed you a promise they made.  On the front page.  100% within their ability to satisfy.  They have not done so.  There is no wiggle room here.

I said there are no valid arguments against Kickstarter and here you are hyperventilating against Caspian again. This is not healthy, Slap.

I am pointing out that there is no accountability to Kickstarter by using CoE as the example since this IS a CoE thread.  Shocking right?

Even when a company blatantly promises to do something on Kickstarter (see examples) there is no accountability.  They apparently can ignore what they promised with impunity.  It’s that utter lack of accountability that is the greatest Kickstarter flaw.

tweedledumb99

Slapshot1188 said:

StaalBurgher said:

There are no other valid arguments against Kickstarter. There are only made up arguments based on false assumptions such as "you bought a product", which you didn't. You donated some money to a group of people on the internet to attempt something very risky.

Expressing skepticism about a projects feasibility is perfectly fine but has nothing to do with Kickstarter principle. People are free to donate as they wish.

No that's utter bullshit.  Pure and simple.

There are promises made by the developer.  The expectation is that the developer will fulfill these promises.  Time is just ONE of those.

For instance, Caspien literally PROMISED in his kickstarter to PUBLISH and UPDATE his schedule on the website. (yes... literally promised.  Quote at the bottom).  This was a simple promise, easy to keep, yet not even close to being fulfilled.

Others include things like using a certain technology (SpatialOS) to enable them to complete something and then suddenly changing.   Another would be not mentioning ANYWHERE on the main Kickstarter page that the funds were not the whole amount and that the game would take another 2-3 million (which was also bullshit as we are at $5.5 and not even close).

So yeah... your claim is utter bullshit and easily disproven. All of the above are quite valid complaints which have nothing to do with just being late.  There is simply zero accountability and THIS is the biggest flaw with Kickstarter.

Quote from main Kickstarter Page:

Soulbound Studios promises to:

• Publish & update our schedule on the CoE website 

Kyleran said:

StaalBurgher said:

parrotpholk said:

StaalBurgher said:

No, there is a promise to attempt to complete the project, that is all.

Publishing deadlines is just fluffy nice to haves but ultimately has no relevance as to whether the project is completed.

Part of their whole sales pitch was to be very transparent and open with development to be different from others.  They have been anything but that so they did sell a promise which they have failed with.  Well unless you paid 10k+ and are a part of the double secret special forums.

Still has nothing to do with my original statement:

This is actually one of the best (only?) arguments against backing a crowdfunded game; it takes so long that you might not be interested once it is done.

You guys are so busy circle-jerking to your collective hate that any comment is construed as... I don't even know what.

You appear to be trying to build a strawman about kickstarters in general, and accuse others of focusing / hating only on COE.

I raised valid concerns about whether or not a backer feels the team is capable of delivering the project, if it is properly funded, or if the goals are even in the realm of possibility yet you ignore, because it dispels your argument?

MadFrenchies comment pissed you off, so rephrased,  in what reality are the points being raised invalid, clearly not the one most of the rest of us reside in.

(Though I know of at least one other resident in there with you.)

Just to be clear, Staal is right to say you're strawmanning if you're arguing CoE specific stuff in response to Staal's point about whether crowdfunding MMO's in general is "wrong/bad".

But it's also a good point that nobody was saying that crowdfunding in general is wrong, just that CoE is fucking up hard.

tweedledumb99

StaalBurgher said:

No, there is a promise to attempt to complete the project, that is all.

Publishing deadlines is just fluffy nice to haves but ultimately has no relevance as to whether the project is completed. Don't get me wrong I think they should do it if they said they have but this is not an argument against "Kickstarter".

Sure but the point of the thread is that CoE specifically is doing stuff that's not good.

Your general point about Kickstarters is a good point, and people arguing against it while citing only CoE stuff, that doesn't make sense.

But it does make sense for them to continue to criticize CoE.

Slapshot1188

tweedledumb99 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

StaalBurgher said:

There are no other valid arguments against Kickstarter. There are only made up arguments based on false assumptions such as "you bought a product", which you didn't. You donated some money to a group of people on the internet to attempt something very risky.

Expressing skepticism about a projects feasibility is perfectly fine but has nothing to do with Kickstarter principle. People are free to donate as they wish.

No that's utter bullshit.  Pure and simple.

There are promises made by the developer.  The expectation is that the developer will fulfill these promises.  Time is just ONE of those.

For instance, Caspien literally PROMISED in his kickstarter to PUBLISH and UPDATE his schedule on the website. (yes... literally promised.  Quote at the bottom).  This was a simple promise, easy to keep, yet not even close to being fulfilled.

Others include things like using a certain technology (SpatialOS) to enable them to complete something and then suddenly changing.   Another would be not mentioning ANYWHERE on the main Kickstarter page that the funds were not the whole amount and that the game would take another 2-3 million (which was also bullshit as we are at $5.5 and not even close).

So yeah... your claim is utter bullshit and easily disproven. All of the above are quite valid complaints which have nothing to do with just being late.  There is simply zero accountability and THIS is the biggest flaw with Kickstarter.

Quote from main Kickstarter Page:

Soulbound Studios promises to:

• Publish & update our schedule on the CoE website 

Kyleran said:

StaalBurgher said:

parrotpholk said:

StaalBurgher said:

No, there is a promise to attempt to complete the project, that is all.

Publishing deadlines is just fluffy nice to haves but ultimately has no relevance as to whether the project is completed.

Part of their whole sales pitch was to be very transparent and open with development to be different from others.  They have been anything but that so they did sell a promise which they have failed with.  Well unless you paid 10k+ and are a part of the double secret special forums.

Still has nothing to do with my original statement:

This is actually one of the best (only?) arguments against backing a crowdfunded game; it takes so long that you might not be interested once it is done.

You guys are so busy circle-jerking to your collective hate that any comment is construed as... I don't even know what.

You appear to be trying to build a strawman about kickstarters in general, and accuse others of focusing / hating only on COE.

I raised valid concerns about whether or not a backer feels the team is capable of delivering the project, if it is properly funded, or if the goals are even in the realm of possibility yet you ignore, because it dispels your argument?

MadFrenchies comment pissed you off, so rephrased,  in what reality are the points being raised invalid, clearly not the one most of the rest of us reside in.

(Though I know of at least one other resident in there with you.)

Just to be clear, Staal is right to say you're strawmanning if you're arguing CoE specific stuff in response to Staal's point about whether crowdfunding MMO's in general is "wrong/bad".

But it's also a good point that nobody was saying that crowdfunding in general is wrong, just that CoE is fucking up hard.

He's not right. CoE IS a Kickstarter.  Its the subject of this very thread.  I have problems with other Kickstarters as well.  We can start a general "Kickstarter" thread if we want... plenty to talk about.  But as I said multiple times, in general there is ZERO accountability.  Not just regarding time as Staal stated, but others like stating a certain technology would be used as the fabric the project would be built on and then later scratching it.   That is a MAJOR change in the project.  In this case it was SpatialOS.  For another project maybe it would be something else.  That is not a Strawman.  The fact that a Kickstarter can do this with no accountability to the backers is a major Kickstarter flaw.   Same thing with not posting on the Kickstarter main page that the amount of funding was not the full amount needed.   Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.  It actually seems to fly in the face of the Kickstarter rules, but again there does not appear to be any accountability.

Here is what Kickstarter says:

Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish. 

--------------

But there is no accountability (that word again). Here we have a project that misstated the time it would take by multiple years and counting, the amount of money needed, the source of the money, the "fabric" the game would be built on (technology)...

... and none of that matters.  It's a problem with CoE, but also a problem with Kickstarter in general because if Kickstarter was functioning properly this type of behavior should never be allowed.

So Strawman?  Hardly.  Please do not belittle actual tangible arguments with dismissive words like that.

Gdemami

Slapshot1188 said:
Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.

How is that a flaw? No one is forcing anyone to drop money on KS project.

Slapshot1188

Gdemami said:

Slapshot1188 said:
Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.

How is that a flaw? No one is forcing anyone to drop money on KS project.

If I ordered tickets to a concert on Ticketmaster for a charity concert and then the concert date was changed, the performers changed, and the location changed... and there was no recourse with Ticketmaster... would that be a problem? 

Gdemami

Slapshot1188 said:

would that be a problem? 

...dunno but since this is not the case, it is irrelevant.

The terms of kickstarter are clear and easy to read for everyone - you donate money to the developer and in return you get a trinket and promise to do their best to deviler the game.

You don't like it? No problem, just don't pledge or turn to some other platfrom.

Again, where is the flaw?

Slapshot1188

Gdemami said:

Slapshot1188 said:

would that be a problem? 

...dunno but since this is not the case, it is irrelevant.

The terms of kickstarter are clear and easy to read for everyone - you donate money to the developer and in return you get a trinket and promise to do their best to deviler the game.

You don't like it? No problem, just don't pledge or turn to some other platfrom.

Again, where is a flaw?

The FLAW.. is that they claim to have rules.  You should read those rules.  There is simply no repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

That is what we call... a flaw.

Gdemami

Slapshot1188 said:
There is simply to repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

...what rules were broken?

laserit

Gdemami said:

Slapshot1188 said:

would that be a problem? 

...dunno but since this is not the case, it is irrelevant.

The terms of kickstarter are clear and easy to read for everyone - you donate money to the developer and in return you get a trinket and promise to do their best to deviler the game.

You don't like it? No problem, just don't pledge or turn to some other platfrom.

Again, where is the flaw?

There definitely is a flaw:

Zero accountability.

Willing to overlook it?

It's your money.

tweedledumb99

Slapshot1188 said:

tweedledumb99 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

StaalBurgher said:

There are no other valid arguments against Kickstarter. There are only made up arguments based on false assumptions such as "you bought a product", which you didn't. You donated some money to a group of people on the internet to attempt something very risky.

Expressing skepticism about a projects feasibility is perfectly fine but has nothing to do with Kickstarter principle. People are free to donate as they wish.

/snip

Just to be clear, Staal is right to say you're strawmanning if you're arguing CoE specific stuff in response to Staal's point about whether crowdfunding MMO's in general is "wrong/bad".

But it's also a good point that nobody was saying that crowdfunding in general is wrong, just that CoE is fucking up hard.

He's not right. CoE IS a Kickstarter.  Its the subject of this very thread.  I have problems with other Kickstarters as well.  We can start a general "Kickstarter" thread if we want... plenty to talk about.  But as I said multiple times, in general there is ZERO accountability.  Not just regarding time as Staal stated, but others like stating a certain technology would be used as the fabric the project would be built on and then later scratching it.   That is a MAJOR change in the project.  In this case it was SpatialOS.  For another project maybe it would be something else.  That is not a Strawman.  The fact that a Kickstarter can do this with no accountability to the backers is a major Kickstarter flaw.   Same thing with not posting on the Kickstarter main page that the amount of funding was not the full amount needed.   Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.  It actually seems to fly in the face of the Kickstarter rules, but again there does not appear to be any accountability.

Here is what Kickstarter says:

Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish. 

--------------

But there is no accountability (that word again). Here we have a project that misstated the time it would take by multiple years and counting, the amount of money needed, the source of the money, the "fabric" the game would be built on (technology)...

... and none of that matters.  It's a problem with CoE, but also a problem with Kickstarter in general because if Kickstarter was functioning properly this type of behavior should never be allowed.

So Strawman?  Hardly.  Please do not belittle actual tangible arguments with dismissive words like that.

EDIT: leaving original up, but see edit below ((No, it is a strawman when someone is arguing against the Kickstarter point with CoE specific stuff only, stuff that's about CoE's failures and not about Kickstarter/crowdfunding.

If you find it belittling, okay, but it is strawmanning to argue that Kickstarting is bad only by citing how CoE fails at it.

Your point about zero accountability is an interesting one, and I agree there's flaws with Kickstarter, but that's not the subject of my post that you quoted, which, again, is that it's flawed to use only CoE's failures as an argument for why Kickstarter in general is bad, so please don't strawman me.))

EDIT: I missed this in your original point, but it seems that you're using the above accountability issues with CoE to point to flaws in Kickstarter generally, and I agree that that's not strawmanning.

However, it is kind of missing Staal's point and the point of Kickstarter, which is to donate to good-faith efforts for stuff you want to see happen and expecting that you're not outright scammed (CoE has not scammed anyone... and @all yes I mean actually scammed, plz no bullshit).

You're also reading into "mislead" in a questionable way (and this is me questioning it) by pointing to missing deadlines, and inconsistency with schedule updates, as though either is a form of misleading or misrepresenting facts. Doing either of these is NOT misleading or misrepresenting, gamer outrage notwithstanding.

A future estimated milestone (whether for features, the final product, or specific updates on the above two) is not a "fact."

If they had said they had already integrated SpatialOS before they had, then that is a misleading or misrepresentation.

Edit 2: It makes sense to demand accountability for the project to launch in less time than it's taken for late traditionally funded MMO's to launch (approximately under 9.5 years e.g. for ESO to get to being a worthwhile game and FFXIV's A Realm Reborn), and for all the main pillar features to be in the game in some form.

Taking every detail about the timelines, process, underlying tech, and every single piecemeal feature as promises written in stone that demand accountability doesn't work. And I think it's a terrible idea to have that rigid and far-reaching idea of accountability for Kickstarted MMO's, even if holding that idea is done in good faith, which I'm a bit skeptical of.

Gdemami

laserit said:

There definitely is a flaw:

Zero accountability.

Willing to overlook it?

It's your money.

That is no flaw, just your preference the terms of the deal were different.

Again, if you don't like the terms, just don't pledge. Simple as that.

laserit

Gdemami said:

laserit said:

There definitely is a flaw:

Zero accountability.

Willing to overlook it?

It's your money.

That is no flaw, just your preference the terms of the deal were different.

Again, if you don't like the terms, just don't pledge. Simple as that.

So are you saying that deals and/or terms of don't have flaws?

Slapshot1188

tweedledumb99 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

tweedledumb99 said:

Slapshot1188 said:

StaalBurgher said:

There are no other valid arguments against Kickstarter. There are only made up arguments based on false assumptions such as "you bought a product", which you didn't. You donated some money to a group of people on the internet to attempt something very risky.

Expressing skepticism about a projects feasibility is perfectly fine but has nothing to do with Kickstarter principle. People are free to donate as they wish.

No that's utter bullshit.  Pure and simple.

There are promises made by the developer.  The expectation is that the developer will fulfill these promises.  Time is just ONE of those.

For instance, Caspien literally PROMISED in his kickstarter to PUBLISH and UPDATE his schedule on the website. (yes... literally promised.  Quote at the bottom).  This was a simple promise, easy to keep, yet not even close to being fulfilled.

Others include things like using a certain technology (SpatialOS) to enable them to complete something and then suddenly changing.   Another would be not mentioning ANYWHERE on the main Kickstarter page that the funds were not the whole amount and that the game would take another 2-3 million (which was also bullshit as we are at $5.5 and not even close).

So yeah... your claim is utter bullshit and easily disproven. All of the above are quite valid complaints which have nothing to do with just being late.  There is simply zero accountability and THIS is the biggest flaw with Kickstarter.

Quote from main Kickstarter Page:

Soulbound Studios promises to:

• Publish & update our schedule on the CoE website 

Kyleran said:

StaalBurgher said:

parrotpholk said:

StaalBurgher said:

No, there is a promise to attempt to complete the project, that is all.

Publishing deadlines is just fluffy nice to haves but ultimately has no relevance as to whether the project is completed.

Part of their whole sales pitch was to be very transparent and open with development to be different from others.  They have been anything but that so they did sell a promise which they have failed with.  Well unless you paid 10k+ and are a part of the double secret special forums.

Still has nothing to do with my original statement:

This is actually one of the best (only?) arguments against backing a crowdfunded game; it takes so long that you might not be interested once it is done.

You guys are so busy circle-jerking to your collective hate that any comment is construed as... I don't even know what.

You appear to be trying to build a strawman about kickstarters in general, and accuse others of focusing / hating only on COE.

I raised valid concerns about whether or not a backer feels the team is capable of delivering the project, if it is properly funded, or if the goals are even in the realm of possibility yet you ignore, because it dispels your argument?

MadFrenchies comment pissed you off, so rephrased,  in what reality are the points being raised invalid, clearly not the one most of the rest of us reside in.

(Though I know of at least one other resident in there with you.)

Just to be clear, Staal is right to say you're strawmanning if you're arguing CoE specific stuff in response to Staal's point about whether crowdfunding MMO's in general is "wrong/bad".

But it's also a good point that nobody was saying that crowdfunding in general is wrong, just that CoE is fucking up hard.

He's not right. CoE IS a Kickstarter.  Its the subject of this very thread.  I have problems with other Kickstarters as well.  We can start a general "Kickstarter" thread if we want... plenty to talk about.  But as I said multiple times, in general there is ZERO accountability.  Not just regarding time as Staal stated, but others like stating a certain technology would be used as the fabric the project would be built on and then later scratching it.   That is a MAJOR change in the project.  In this case it was SpatialOS.  For another project maybe it would be something else.  That is not a Strawman.  The fact that a Kickstarter can do this with no accountability to the backers is a major Kickstarter flaw.   Same thing with not posting on the Kickstarter main page that the amount of funding was not the full amount needed.   Again, that Kickstarter allowed this is a flaw with Kickstarter.  It actually seems to fly in the face of the Kickstarter rules, but again there does not appear to be any accountability.

Here is what Kickstarter says:

Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish. 

--------------

But there is no accountability (that word again). Here we have a project that misstated the time it would take by multiple years and counting, the amount of money needed, the source of the money, the "fabric" the game would be built on (technology)...

... and none of that matters.  It's a problem with CoE, but also a problem with Kickstarter in general because if Kickstarter was functioning properly this type of behavior should never be allowed.

So Strawman?  Hardly.  Please do not belittle actual tangible arguments with dismissive words like that.

No, it is a strawman when someone is arguing against the Kickstarter point with CoE specific stuff only, stuff that's about CoE's failures and not about Kickstarter/crowdfunding.

If you find it belittling, okay, but it is strawmanning to argue that Kickstarting is bad only by citing how CoE fails at it.

Your point about zero accountability is an interesting one, and I agree there's flaws with Kickstarter, but that's not the subject of my post that you quoted, which, again, is that it's flawed to use only CoE's failures as an argument for why Kickstarter in general is bad, so please don't strawman me.

Arguing that Kickstarter has flaws by pointing out flaws in a Kickstarter is the opposite of a Strawman.  Do you want me to go into StarCitizen? Or Greedmonger? Or Pathfinder Online?  Not the place for that discussion but start a thread in the Pub and I'd be happy to do so

Gdemami

laserit said:

So are you saying that deals and/or terms of don't have flaws?

...I guess they do but not in this context and case.

Gdemami

Slapshot1188 said:

Arguing that Kickstarter has flaws by pointing out flaws in a Kickstarter is the opposite of a Strawman.

...just because you don't like the terms does make them flawed, you are just pulling strawmans as always.

Slapshot1188

Gdemami said:

Slapshot1188 said:
There is simply to repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

...what rules were broken?

I literally posted one of their rules and what was broken a few posts above... Do you read Bro?

Seriously...

Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish.

-------------

That is an actual posted rule.

CoE did not show that the amount being asked for was not the full amount of the project on the KS main page. KS actually required this.  This was pointed out when it was revealed, but it was not revealed until AFTER the campaign closed.  No action was taken.   Is that clear enough example of a rule that was broken with no accountability?

 

laserit

Gdemami said:

laserit said:

So are you saying that deals and/or terms of don't have flaws?

...I guess they do but not in this context and case.

A deal and/or terms can be just as flawed by what it doesn't say as well as what it does say.

peter piper picked a pickle

Gdemami

Slapshot1188 said:

Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish.

-------------

That is an actual posted rule.

CoE did not show that the amount being asked for was not the full amount of the project on the KS main page. KS actually required this.  This was pointed out when it was revealed, but it was not revealed until AFTER the campaign closed.  No action was taken.   Is that clear enough example of a rule that was broken with no accountability?

That rule says nothing about necessity to post a "full amount" of the project on KS main page. Where do you get that?

So again, what rule was broken?

tweedledumb99

Slapshot1188 said:

Gdemami said:

Slapshot1188 said:
There is simply to repercussion to a company that gets money and then breaks those rules.

...what rules were broken?

I literally posted one of their rules and what was broken a few posts above... Do you read Bro?

Seriously...

Projects must be honest and clearly presented.

Our community is built on trust and communication. Projects can’t mislead people or misrepresent facts, and creators should be candid about what they plan to accomplish.

-------------

That is an actual posted rule.

CoE did not show that the amount being asked for was not the full amount of the project on the KS main page. KS actually required this.  This was pointed out when it was revealed, but it was not revealed until AFTER the campaign closed.  No action was taken.   Is that clear enough example of a rule that was broken with no accountability?

 

That's the first example I've seen of a rule-break by CoE, and it only counts as one if they knew beforehand that the funding wouldn't be enough. Did they?

Gdemami

laserit said:

A deal and/or terms can be just as flawed by what it doesn't say as well as what it does say.

...ok? And how is that related again or do you just make some general, to the topic irrelevant comment?

laserit

Gdemami said:

laserit said:

A deal and/or terms can be just as flawed by what it doesn't say as well as what it does say.

...ok? And how is that related again or do you just make some general, to the topic irrelevant comment?

A one sided deal is flawed. The beneficiary might disagree.