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Chronicles of Elyria: Wherefore Art Thou? - MMORPG.com

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,752
    IMHO it's getting more and more cult-like every day.  Just check out this post from Caspien today telling people that 3rd party sites are "not interested in your happiness".  Think about what he is posting here.  Building distrust of news sites and 3rd party forums... only within the community do they truly care about you.   Wow... it's really getting to scary levels.



    SabracGdemamitweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,832
    IMHO it's getting more and more cult-like every day.  Just check out this post from Caspien today telling people that 3rd party sites are "not interested in your happiness".  Think about what he is posting here.  Building distrust of news sites and 3rd party forums... only within the community do they truly care about you.   Wow... it's really getting to scary levels.



    I think I'm going to trust whoever isn't after my money.
    LokeroMendelMadFrenchieGdemamiDakeru
    "I don't wait for games. Games wait for me."
    -- CHUCK NORRIS

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,752
    Kyleran said:
    Dakeru said:
    Forgrimm said:
    Just checked the CoE forums, someone posted the full text of Tim's article there. Already 4 pages of responses. https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/30270/mmorpgcom-chronicles-of-elyria-wherefore-art-thou?page=1#31
    This here is my favorite post:

    Dellamorte


    Authored as an end user and not as a developer.

    As a person who has done quite a bit of both in my career, if I were a member of SBS I would say the following:

    Thanks for being polite.

    We acknowledge dates have been missed here, here, and here.

    We have a plan moving forward to accomplish xyz by these dates. We feel these dates are realistic compared to our other dates because of reasons xyz.

    The impact on timelines is the following (delays) (new timelines).

    Information will be released on the following schedule.

    Thanks



    This suggestion seems absolutely reasonable and polite to me.

    Can you guess what happened? They downvoted him lol

    True but if I threw away the money some of those people did to maybe play by the time they are collecting social security, I would probably downvote my own mother because bitter would be understatement. 

    Rational posts will get you nowhere.
    Well clearly then it's time for me to head over there and create some irrational posts.

    Hold my beer, I've got this.

    :D
    If you do wade into the crap over there feel free to copy and paste his 3 Major Milestones for 2018 from his 2018 State Of Elyria post and the results as of 2019 which is 0 for 3.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    What's the difference in Chris Roberts and Caspian?

    One man oversells products based on his dreams, the other just sells his dreams.
  • TierlessTierless ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,379
    Lokero said:
    What's the difference in Chris Roberts and Caspian?

    One man oversells products based on his dreams, the other just sells his dreams.
    The important thing. The thing I hope all developers remember. That NDA isn't forever. Inevitably your dream is gonna launch into reality and you will be judged by what is, not what you claim will be. 
    MadFrenchieGdemamiKyleranOzmodantweedledumb99
    But not all men seek rest and peace; some are born with the spirit of the storm in their blood, restless harbingers, knowing no other path.
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,573
    TimEisen said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    Humans are capable of far greater mental abilities than having to detach themselves from the money they put into something. Objectivity isn't hard, you just turn off your emotions and look at the facts alone. You write your piece directly referencing them and draw conclusions based upon them. 

    But your question is flawed in one major way, you assume I wasn't hired as a backer, to write about games from that point of view. You see I've never hidden which games I backed, despite the fact I easily could have. I've been open about them because I write from the perspective of an embedded reporter observing the crowd funded game development as it transpires. 

    Now, would I review a game I covered for several years while embedded? Yes, BUT, I would note at the top of the review my past experiences and relationship with the game which should be taken into account.

    Looking at how small our niche is, it would be hard to find a writer that didn't have some exposure to a game. If you wanted a truly unobjective review I suppose you would have to grab a non gamer, make them play a game, then have them write up their review. Maybe grab a gamer that has never played a MMORPG? 

    Do I want all MMORPGs to do well? Yes. Would that sway my opinion on a review of a finished product? Possibly but I would take all possible steps to be fact based, not emotion based. This world needs more facts. 
    Thanks for addressing this, but I think you are dancing around the point. The fact you are upfront about your monetary investment is to be commended but that does not mean that anyone who does so is impartial. Also the idea that "objectivity isn't hard" runs counter to everything I have seen in my life from others and indeed sometimes myself, so forgive me if I put a very big question mark over that.

    Naturally you thought I was questioning your judgment here, but actually I don't know how much this influenced you. I should have been clearer that my point was a more general one, would it not be a good idea if the people writing such articles did not have money in them?

    Also the extrapolations from what I have said are rather running wild. Hopefully you can see how the idea that what I have said leads us to only having writers who have not played a MMORPG before to review such games, is rather out there?

    So to be clear, I see no issue if writers of such reviews love MMORPG's, if they might have met the developers and so on. It is purely the psychological investment in something that putting money in creates that concerns me.

    So in the end do I discount what you have said? No of course not, I have found your opinions on gaming to be elucidating. I just don't think gaming journalists should be put in this position.
    TierlessGdemamiMadFrenchie
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,752
    Scot said:
    TimEisen said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    Humans are capable of far greater mental abilities than having to detach themselves from the money they put into something. Objectivity isn't hard, you just turn off your emotions and look at the facts alone. You write your piece directly referencing them and draw conclusions based upon them. 

    But your question is flawed in one major way, you assume I wasn't hired as a backer, to write about games from that point of view. You see I've never hidden which games I backed, despite the fact I easily could have. I've been open about them because I write from the perspective of an embedded reporter observing the crowd funded game development as it transpires. 

    Now, would I review a game I covered for several years while embedded? Yes, BUT, I would note at the top of the review my past experiences and relationship with the game which should be taken into account.

    Looking at how small our niche is, it would be hard to find a writer that didn't have some exposure to a game. If you wanted a truly unobjective review I suppose you would have to grab a non gamer, make them play a game, then have them write up their review. Maybe grab a gamer that has never played a MMORPG? 

    Do I want all MMORPGs to do well? Yes. Would that sway my opinion on a review of a finished product? Possibly but I would take all possible steps to be fact based, not emotion based. This world needs more facts. 
    Thanks for addressing this, but I think you are dancing around the point. The fact you are upfront about your monetary investment is to be commended but that does not mean that anyone who does so is impartial. Also the idea that "objectivity isn't hard" runs counter to everything I have seen in my life from others and indeed sometimes myself, so forgive me if I put a very big question mark over that.

    Naturally you thought I was questioning your judgment here, but actually I don't know how much this influenced you. I should have been clearer that my point was a more general one, would it not be a good idea if the people writing such articles did not have money in them?

    Also the extrapolations from what I have said are rather running wild. Hopefully you can see how the idea that what I have said leads us to only having writers who have not played a MMORPG before to review such games, is rather out there?

    So to be clear, I see no issue if writers of such reviews love MMORPG's, if they might have met the developers and so on. It is purely the psychological investment in something that putting money in creates that concerns me.

    So in the end do I discount what you have said? No of course not, I have found your opinions on gaming to be elucidating. I just don't think gaming journalists should be put in this position.
    Perhaps you should consider this:

    There is no game.  No gameplay to review.  What he in essence is writing about is his experience as a person who Crowdfunded the game.  It’s a review of the journey.  It’s the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about the destination based on pictures and info from other people.


    ScotTierlessMadFrenchietweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • lahnmirlahnmir Member LegendaryPosts: 4,299
    Scot said:
    TimEisen said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    Humans are capable of far greater mental abilities than having to detach themselves from the money they put into something. Objectivity isn't hard, you just turn off your emotions and look at the facts alone. You write your piece directly referencing them and draw conclusions based upon them. 

    But your question is flawed in one major way, you assume I wasn't hired as a backer, to write about games from that point of view. You see I've never hidden which games I backed, despite the fact I easily could have. I've been open about them because I write from the perspective of an embedded reporter observing the crowd funded game development as it transpires. 

    Now, would I review a game I covered for several years while embedded? Yes, BUT, I would note at the top of the review my past experiences and relationship with the game which should be taken into account.

    Looking at how small our niche is, it would be hard to find a writer that didn't have some exposure to a game. If you wanted a truly unobjective review I suppose you would have to grab a non gamer, make them play a game, then have them write up their review. Maybe grab a gamer that has never played a MMORPG? 

    Do I want all MMORPGs to do well? Yes. Would that sway my opinion on a review of a finished product? Possibly but I would take all possible steps to be fact based, not emotion based. This world needs more facts. 
    Thanks for addressing this, but I think you are dancing around the point. The fact you are upfront about your monetary investment is to be commended but that does not mean that anyone who does so is impartial. Also the idea that "objectivity isn't hard" runs counter to everything I have seen in my life from others and indeed sometimes myself, so forgive me if I put a very big question mark over that.

    Naturally you thought I was questioning your judgment here, but actually I don't know how much this influenced you. I should have been clearer that my point was a more general one, would it not be a good idea if the people writing such articles did not have money in them?

    Also the extrapolations from what I have said are rather running wild. Hopefully you can see how the idea that what I have said leads us to only having writers who have not played a MMORPG before to review such games, is rather out there?

    So to be clear, I see no issue if writers of such reviews love MMORPG's, if they might have met the developers and so on. It is purely the psychological investment in something that putting money in creates that concerns me.

    So in the end do I discount what you have said? No of course not, I have found your opinions on gaming to be elucidating. I just don't think gaming journalists should be put in this position.
    Perhaps you should consider this:

    There is no game.  No gameplay to review.  What he in essence is writing about is his experience as a person who Crowdfunded the game.  It’s a review of the journey.  It’s the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about the destination based on pictures and info from other people.


    Hell, its not even that. Its the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about a not yet created destination based on promises and concept pictures and info from other people whom might not be trustworthy at all.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    ScotYashaXTierlessUngood
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...



    'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless. 

    It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.

    It is just huge resource waste....'

    Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,573

    Perhaps you should consider this:

    There is no game.  No gameplay to review.  What he in essence is writing about is his experience as a person who Crowdfunded the game.  It’s a review of the journey.  It’s the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about the destination based on pictures and info from other people.


    Well you have a point there, but I do think it is blurred by articles before reviews effectively being reviews what with early access and spending before EA even begins. So yes, they certainly are a travelogue but they are no doubt being used to make decisions on purchases.

    The fact we see them voicing concerns is also evidence that we are getting something of a balanced view, I am not suggesting that we have an epidemic of impartiality as a result of this. But it has to raise concerns, it seems to me when you are that close how do you properly step back?
  • TierlessTierless ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,379
    edited January 2019
    Scot said:
    Thanks for addressing this, but I think you are dancing around the point. The fact you are upfront about your monetary investment is to be commended but that does not mean that anyone who does so is impartial. Also the idea that "objectivity isn't hard" runs counter to everything I have seen in my life from others and indeed sometimes myself, so forgive me if I put a very big question mark over that.

    Naturally you thought I was questioning your judgment here, but actually I don't know how much this influenced you. I should have been clearer that my point was a more general one, would it not be a good idea if the people writing such articles did not have money in them?

    Also the extrapolations from what I have said are rather running wild. Hopefully you can see how the idea that what I have said leads us to only having writers who have not played a MMORPG before to review such games, is rather out there?

    So to be clear, I see no issue if writers of such reviews love MMORPG's, if they might have met the developers and so on. It is purely the psychological investment in something that putting money in creates that concerns me.

    So in the end do I discount what you have said? No of course not, I have found your opinions on gaming to be elucidating. I just don't think gaming journalists should be put in this position.
    I see what you are saying more clearly now. I can't speak for other writers, and in many cases, based on the writer's history I would agree with you. As a fan, they way I take my news is to research the writers and I only trust the ones that have shown me the ability to place facts before emotions. In my life experience I'd say it depends on the individual. Personally I try hard to live a fact based life. I've joked that I love my water jug. I carry it everywhere. I'd promote the hell out of the thing if they asked me to because its the best one I've ever had, and if a scientific study came out showing the thing is a hazard, I'd toss it out without thinking about it lol. 

    In general, I agree with you. In general it makes me nervous and uncomfortable if I'm reading work from people emotionally or financially invested in the thing I am reading about. The conclusion I reach is that writing/streaming/news etc is only as good as it's author and the set of facts or primary sources they utilize. At the end of the day I take it upon myself to decide if this author is someone worth my time, worth trusting, or another talking head propagandist selling me BS like global warming is a myth and the earth is flat hah. 

    What keeps me up at night, and something worth considering, is that I'm in the minority. Its rare that a game writer says what they are invested in. We are in an era where steamers literally sell their stream to studios. I've heard cases of 70k to stream a game. I don't know if it's flat out stated the streamer will put it over and hype it up or call it like they see it, but if I had 70k on the line I can tell you I do not believe I could stay honest! Even if I tried, that amount is life changing in ways that would supersede my judgement, aware or not. Its odd to me that stream fans accept this but when it coms to writing, if our site approached a studio and offered to sell them a great review, it would be a huge scandal.

    I feel fans need to realize the streamers should be held to the same standards as the written media. That would substantially change how streams look though, for one the would be on old PC's, sitting in generic office chairs, without the shelves of freebies behind them lol. I don't have any sort of grudge against streamers, I just hope they will eventually be held to higher standards of integrity the way writers are. 

    Fortunately the amounts involved with writing about MMORPGs and even the amounts I spent on the games I backed, are amounts I was, at least at the time, comfortable parting with. Maybe there is a price on honesty? What it is I don't know. 70k, 30k, 1k? I haven't put even a thousand into any game but would that make me want it to succeed? I guess I cant say for sure but I'd like to believe the person I am wouldn't give a hot damn. 
    GdemamiMadFrenchieTorval
    But not all men seek rest and peace; some are born with the spirit of the storm in their blood, restless harbingers, knowing no other path.
  • TierlessTierless ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,379
    lahnmir said:
    Perhaps you should consider this:

    There is no game.  No gameplay to review.  What he in essence is writing about is his experience as a person who Crowdfunded the game.  It’s a review of the journey.  It’s the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about the destination based on pictures and info from other people.


    Hell, its not even that. Its the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about a not yet created destination based on promises and concept pictures and info from other people whom might not be trustworthy at all.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I loled pretty hard when I read this. That might be my next move! I'll be the first Instagram "world traveler" that books trips years in advance to resorts not yet built then covers the mundane day to day until I finally go to the airport. 
    MadFrenchieUngoodTorvallahnmir
    But not all men seek rest and peace; some are born with the spirit of the storm in their blood, restless harbingers, knowing no other path.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 4,597
    I'm just waiting until Tim realizes that the COE poster basically plagiarized him.  It was a copy & paste of the entire article, instead of a link, with absolutely no credit to Tim (through 4 pages, anyway).  There are even several posters that seem to think the cut&paste member was the author of the original article.

    Let's see how well SBS disciplines its membership in the face of a legal violation.  Heck, even MMORPG.com might have a valid complaint.



    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,797
    Mendel said:
    I'm just waiting until Tim realizes that the COE poster basically plagiarized him.  It was a copy & paste of the entire article, instead of a link, with absolutely no credit to Tim (through 4 pages, anyway).  There are even several posters that seem to think the cut&paste member was the author of the original article.

    Let's see how well SBS disciplines its membership in the face of a legal violation.  Heck, even MMORPG.com might have a valid complaint.



    Uhm no..

    As you can see from the article on the mmorpg.com below I am not alone who thinks the same way.

    Read more at https://www.mmorpg.com/chronicles-of-elyria/columns/chronicles-of-elyria-wherefore-art-thou-1000013349#b8JHmKVpAeCeevIG.99
    Gdemamitweedledumb99
    Harbinger of Fools
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,690
    edited January 2019
    Sovrath said:
    Iselin said:
    kjempff said:
    kjempff said:

    Then there is the money issue. Afaik they were always upfront about the crowdfunding was to get the project started (correct me if you know otherwise), and that it would need outside investors to "finish" the project. 
    For the record they never mentioned this on their Kickstarter main page.As a matter of fact they had stretch goals like adding Mounted Combat etc...

    Also related:
    Massively OP: The sticking points seem to be the Kickstarter FAQ line that states, “The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project” and the fact that COE’s Kickstarter verbiage itself doesn’t appear to mention that the $900K sought wasn’t the full amount (it’s buried in the 8000+ comments)

    He also said $1.2M gets a core game and Alpha 1 yet here we sit within over $5M raised and not there yet.

    He also said “it’s our intention that all of it be covered by investors, or at least, not players.“ Which obviously didn’t happen.

    He also said that closing refunds at the same time they announced this was and I quote “ I want to say it was a complete coincidence that we announced our refund policy going forward in the same update where we evidently made people aware we’re still looking for money from investors, etc.”

    https://massivelyop.com/2016/09/28/interview-chronicles-of-elyrias-jeromy-walsh-on-post-kickstarter-funding/


    So yeah... I kind of disagree that they were even close to upfront.

    Thanks. I haven't been following that closely, so you are probably correct.
    Though, "completing" a project does not necessarily mean the final product, it could mean a vertical slice which is a game dev term defining a working game showing of a core concept - Again I have not followed CoE closely, so I don't know the wording used in the ks or if that core game has been delivered to backers or is close to.

    On a side note, I find the whole refund thing and backers entitlement on a crowdfunded game to be a misunderstanding. If you crowdfunded something you did not buy anything, you either donated or invested and at that point the money is no longer yours. The receiver is only required to spend that money as advertised and to the best of their ability, but there is no guarantee of success implied not for the entire project neither for completion of stretch goals. It is an investment, not a purchase.



    It's not an investment, either.
    But it should be. Crowdfunding where backers get a piece of the action, a % share, would make a lot of sense as shared risk with possible rewards. 

    What we have instead is panhandling elevated to an art form... no scratch that, it has much more in common with fringe religions than art :)
    But it is. The word investment can be used in other ways and is often used to mean getting an advantage, a positive outcome, a desired effect.

    That's what is meant by this type of investment. It's not always to get back a financial result.


    It's an investment in the same way putting gas in my car is an "investment" into my future personal mobility.
    I can only say you have the wrong idea of what investment means. Buying gas is a purchase of goods, so is buying a printer or even a service. An investment means that you are investing in a possible outcome (not a guaranteed outcome), which traditionally is a return as more money than you put in, but it can also be return of goods or in this case a game. As opposed to a purchase, an investment does not guarantee to succeed in a return ... that is the whole point and why a ks is an investment and not a purchase, otherwise it would be a loan or a payment up front.. you can also read ks view on refunds and whether they consider backing as a purchase (spoiler they don't, although to be fair they don't call it investment, that is just something I concluded because it is everything that define an investment). 
    Ozmodan
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    kjempff said:
    Sovrath said:
    Iselin said:
    kjempff said:
    kjempff said:

    Then there is the money issue. Afaik they were always upfront about the crowdfunding was to get the project started (correct me if you know otherwise), and that it would need outside investors to "finish" the project. 
    For the record they never mentioned this on their Kickstarter main page.As a matter of fact they had stretch goals like adding Mounted Combat etc...

    Also related:
    Massively OP: The sticking points seem to be the Kickstarter FAQ line that states, “The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project” and the fact that COE’s Kickstarter verbiage itself doesn’t appear to mention that the $900K sought wasn’t the full amount (it’s buried in the 8000+ comments)

    He also said $1.2M gets a core game and Alpha 1 yet here we sit within over $5M raised and not there yet.

    He also said “it’s our intention that all of it be covered by investors, or at least, not players.“ Which obviously didn’t happen.

    He also said that closing refunds at the same time they announced this was and I quote “ I want to say it was a complete coincidence that we announced our refund policy going forward in the same update where we evidently made people aware we’re still looking for money from investors, etc.”

    https://massivelyop.com/2016/09/28/interview-chronicles-of-elyrias-jeromy-walsh-on-post-kickstarter-funding/


    So yeah... I kind of disagree that they were even close to upfront.

    Thanks. I haven't been following that closely, so you are probably correct.
    Though, "completing" a project does not necessarily mean the final product, it could mean a vertical slice which is a game dev term defining a working game showing of a core concept - Again I have not followed CoE closely, so I don't know the wording used in the ks or if that core game has been delivered to backers or is close to.

    On a side note, I find the whole refund thing and backers entitlement on a crowdfunded game to be a misunderstanding. If you crowdfunded something you did not buy anything, you either donated or invested and at that point the money is no longer yours. The receiver is only required to spend that money as advertised and to the best of their ability, but there is no guarantee of success implied not for the entire project neither for completion of stretch goals. It is an investment, not a purchase.



    It's not an investment, either.
    But it should be. Crowdfunding where backers get a piece of the action, a % share, would make a lot of sense as shared risk with possible rewards. 

    What we have instead is panhandling elevated to an art form... no scratch that, it has much more in common with fringe religions than art :)
    But it is. The word investment can be used in other ways and is often used to mean getting an advantage, a positive outcome, a desired effect.

    That's what is meant by this type of investment. It's not always to get back a financial result.


    It's an investment in the same way putting gas in my car is an "investment" into my future personal mobility.
    I can only say you have the wrong idea of what investment means. Buying gas is a purchase of goods, so is buying a printer or even a game. An investment means that you are investing in a possible outcome (not a guaranteed outcome), which traditionally is a return as more money than you put in, but it can also be return of goods or in this case a game. As opposed to a purchase, an investment does not guarantee to succeed in a return ... that is the whole point and why a ks is an investment and not a purchase, otherwise it would be a loan or a payment up front.. you can also read ks view on refunds and whether they consider backing as a purchase (spoiler they don't). 
    They can consider it or not.  Doesn't change the fact that these folks aren't just throwing money at the idea, these pledges always include game copies, sub time, or other in-game items.  Those aren't really intangibles; they're very clearly laid out.

    Also, go ahead and check the crowdfunding buttons on these project websites.  "Add to cart," and "Buy" are the words used.  Remind me again: is "buying" something viewed the same as "investing" in something?  Where else do you take an investment and "add to cart"?
    GdemamiOzmodan

    image
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,573
    TimEisen said:

    I see what you are saying more clearly now. I can't speak for other writers, and in many cases, based on the writer's history I would agree with you. As a fan, they way I take my news is to research the writers and I only trust the ones that have shown me the ability to place facts before emotions. In my life experience I'd say it depends on the individual. Personally I try hard to live a fact based life. I've joked that I love my water jug. I carry it everywhere. I'd promote the hell out of the thing if they asked me to because its the best one I've ever had, and if a scientific study came out showing the thing is a hazard, I'd toss it out without thinking about it lol. 

    In general, I agree with you. In general it makes me nervous and uncomfortable if I'm reading work from people emotionally or financially invested in the thing I am reading about. The conclusion I reach is that writing/streaming/news etc is only as good as it's author and the set of facts or primary sources they utilize. At the end of the day I take it upon myself to decide if this author is someone worth my time, worth trusting, or another talking head propagandist selling me BS like global warming is a myth and the earth is flat hah. 

    What keeps me up at night, and something worth considering, is that I'm in the minority. Its rare that a game writer says what they are invested in. We are in an era where steamers literally sell their stream to studios. I've heard cases of 70k to stream a game. I don't know if it's flat out stated the streamer will put it over and hype it up or call it like they see it, but if I had 70k on the line I can tell you I do not believe I could stay honest! Even if I tried, that amount is life changing in ways that would supersede my judgement, aware or not. Its odd to me that stream fans accept this but when it coms to writing, if our site approached a studio and offered to sell them a great review, it would be a huge scandal.

    I feel fans need to realize the streamers should be held to the same standards as the written media. That would substantially change how streams look though, for one the would be on old PC's, sitting in generic office chairs, without the shelves of freebies behind them lol. I don't have any sort of grudge against streamers, I just hope they will eventually be held to higher standards of integrity the way writers are. 

    Fortunately the amounts involved with writing about MMORPGs and even the amounts I spent on the games I backed, are amounts I was, at least at the time, comfortable parting with. Maybe there is a price on honesty? What it is I don't know. 70k, 30k, 1k? I haven't put even a thousand into any game but would that make me want it to succeed? I guess I cant say for sure but I'd like to believe the person I am wouldn't give a hot damn. 
    Of the articles on here where someone has said they paid in at an early stage I have never thought, oh you can see how this has influenced him. That said I don't read many development articles or threads.

    I am not sure that streaming will ever be brought into line with the standards I expect from gaming journalists, if it is where the money is it is here to stay, something we have seen so many times before in different ways in gaming.

    I regard a site like this as a bulwark against the nonsense we have seen creeping in over the years, so am I overly protective of "standards"? Yes, but I think we have to be, the whole concept of a gaming ethos which grew up in the nineties has been subverted or just done away with.

    Anyway if you get offered 70k for your next article remember not to buy a new sportscar, its always a bit of a give away. :)
    TierlessGdemamiMendel
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,752


    Also, go ahead and check the crowdfunding buttons on these project websites.  "Add to cart," and "Buy" are the words used.  Remind me again: is "buying" something viewed the same as "investing" in something?  Where else do you take an investment and "add to cart"?
    You mean like on CoE's store page?


    OzmodanMadFrenchie

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

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  • TierlessTierless ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,379


    Also, go ahead and check the crowdfunding buttons on these project websites.  "Add to cart," and "Buy" are the words used.  Remind me again: is "buying" something viewed the same as "investing" in something?  Where else do you take an investment and "add to cart"?
    You mean like on CoE's store page?


    They don't even make art for half of it! I mean...saving some cash I guess. Or do the finished items resemble silhouettes? 

    Mendel said:
    I'm just waiting until Tim realizes that the COE poster basically plagiarized him.  It was a copy & paste of the entire article, instead of a link, with absolutely no credit to Tim (through 4 pages, anyway).  There are even several posters that seem to think the cut&paste member was the author of the original article.

    Let's see how well SBS disciplines its membership in the face of a legal violation.  Heck, even MMORPG.com might have a valid complaint.



    Man they didn't even link me? How do they know the poster didn't change my words? How do they know it even exists? I hope they had the insights to come here to confirm it was the legit version. 

    What I fail to understand is, if the game is doing so well behind that $1,000 paywall why wouldn't they flaunt it? If its that far along it would only serve to get them more subscribers? At the least they could allow a legit MMO site to do a preview which again gets them more money by proxy.

    I've backed enough of these to know the studios that have something decent behind that NDA flaunt it. They can barely contain themselves. They are proud, excited, and doing so makes them more fans and from those fans they get more dollars. The studios that don't give any insights, the ones that use the unknown as their crutch and hide behind the NDA do it for a reason. 
    GdemamiKyleranWellspringMadFrenchieScot
    But not all men seek rest and peace; some are born with the spirit of the storm in their blood, restless harbingers, knowing no other path.
  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,726
    I don't see how anyone can say they are providing updates.  I know several people that have invested in this game and all of them are at the point where they do not think it will ever release.   They were big proponents of the game for quite some time too.   

    What I find really humorous, IF the game ever releases with at least the perma death feature implemented, it will only take the first cycle of lost characters to deter most of the player base.  Just a brain dead mechanic that few will tolerate.  Their entire design was ludicrous from the start. 
    GdemamiTierlessMadFrenchieScot
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,154
    TimEisen said:
    lahnmir said:
    Perhaps you should consider this:

    There is no game.  No gameplay to review.  What he in essence is writing about is his experience as a person who Crowdfunded the game.  It’s a review of the journey.  It’s the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about the destination based on pictures and info from other people.


    Hell, its not even that. Its the difference between a travel journalist live blogging about his trip as it happens and someone else making a post about a not yet created destination based on promises and concept pictures and info from other people whom might not be trustworthy at all.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    I loled pretty hard when I read this. That might be my next move! I'll be the first Instagram "world traveler" that books trips years in advance to resorts not yet built then covers the mundane day to day until I finally go to the airport. 
    You can even open a KSer campaign to get you started.
    Tierless

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,438
    TimEisen said:


    Also, go ahead and check the crowdfunding buttons on these project websites.  "Add to cart," and "Buy" are the words used.  Remind me again: is "buying" something viewed the same as "investing" in something?  Where else do you take an investment and "add to cart"?
    You mean like on CoE's store page?


    They don't even make art for half of it! I mean...saving some cash I guess. Or do the finished items resemble silhouettes? 

    Mendel said:
    I'm just waiting until Tim realizes that the COE poster basically plagiarized him.  It was a copy & paste of the entire article, instead of a link, with absolutely no credit to Tim (through 4 pages, anyway).  There are even several posters that seem to think the cut&paste member was the author of the original article.

    Let's see how well SBS disciplines its membership in the face of a legal violation.  Heck, even MMORPG.com might have a valid complaint.



    Man they didn't even link me? How do they know the poster didn't change my words? How do they know it even exists? I hope they had the insights to come here to confirm it was the legit version. 

    What I fail to understand is, if the game is doing so well behind that $1,000 paywall why wouldn't they flaunt it? If its that far along it would only serve to get them more subscribers? At the least they could allow a legit MMO site to do a preview which again gets them more money by proxy.

    I've backed enough of these to know the studios that have something decent behind that NDA flaunt it. They can barely contain themselves. They are proud, excited, and doing so makes them more fans and from those fans they get more dollars. The studios that don't give any insights, the ones that use the unknown as their crutch and hide behind the NDA do it for a reason. 
    I used to have access to the CoE locked forums before I sold my account last spring. I think there are (or at least were) two tiers of locked forums, which I had access to the lower priced one.

    I can't say what goes on in the VIP locked forums, but the one for barons and counts was useless. It was pretty much just fellow players talking to each other. No secret reveals or even dev interaction. Maybe every other week a dev or moderator would post a comment in a thread, but nothing worth while happened in there. It was so dead I stopped checking it after a while. 

    No one who paid to get in is going to admit that though. They just want you to think all this secret stuff is going on in there, so they don't feel foolish for buying in. 

    Perhaps things changed since last year, but I honestly doubt it. 
    KyleranGdemamiMadFrenchieDakeruScottweedledumb99
    --------------------------------------------
  • SturVosSturVos Newbie CommonPosts: 3
    Always valid to get frustrated over the development of a game and constant delays. I supported 7 days in the early days and progress is sometimes slow. However, CoE seems to be making progress, maybe not as fast as their optimistic estimates just starting out. Everyone wants to think that their revolutionary idea will succeed quickly and that often isn't the case as logistics and real life come into play.

    That said. What these people are attempting is well worth supporting, especially if the features look appealing to you. Definitely not going to appeal to everyone but SoulBound has some of the most thoughtful design on mechanics I have ever seen and there are going to be bumps in the road but I am fully confident in their ability to get there.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 38,154
    SturVos said:
    Always valid to get frustrated over the development of a game and constant delays. I supported 7 days in the early days and progress is sometimes slow. However, CoE seems to be making progress, maybe not as fast as their optimistic estimates just starting out. Everyone wants to think that their revolutionary idea will succeed quickly and that often isn't the case as logistics and real life come into play.

    That said. What these people are attempting is well worth supporting, especially if the features look appealing to you. Definitely not going to appeal to everyone but SoulBound has some of the most thoughtful design on mechanics I have ever seen and there are going to be bumps in the road but I am fully confident in their ability to get there.
    Welcome to the forums.

    Hopefully you'll consider visiting for some of the other content and just not in COE, as after all, looks like there's gonna be a bit of a wait.

    ;)


    Slapshot1188MadFrenchie

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing ESO - Blackwood at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • FlyinDutchman87FlyinDutchman87 Member UncommonPosts: 335
    Vaporware......

    Of all the MMO's I've backed this one is the least likely to get off the ground and that includes a MMORTS that I'm pretty sure isn't even being developed anymore. At least that game doesn't keep selling more digital goods that will never pan out.

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