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Chronicles of Elyria: Wherefore Art Thou? - MMORPG.com

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,566
    TimEisen said:
    I want to welcome all of the new and uncharacteristically positive folks that made an account to join in this conversation. Always nice to have some new people contributing.



    @timeisen Wow... I don’t know whether to stand and applaud you or cry that they have driven all Hope from even you.



    To me it always comes down to a few simple things. Say what you mean. Do what you say you will do in roughly the time you say you will do it.



    It’s fine for a developer to talk the talk and push back on detractors. But then they better walk the walk and do what they said.



    Simply pulling Caspiens own words and then comparing them to reality should be all anyone needs to know about this project. From the silly timelines, to SpatialOS being what would enable all their lofty promises, to ElyriaMUD, to VoxElyria... to the Prelude... on and on and on there has been a massive deficiency in delivering.



    As I said in a recent thread comparing his Jan 2018 State of Elyria to what really was delivered last year, it’s easy to waste other people’s money.



    I still think it would make an interesting column for you to take the statements from the various Kickstarter MMORPGs from a year ago and compare them to reality today.








    The only thing Luke skywalker and I have in common is atubvirn hope. Him for his dad and me because thats all that’s there.


    But now we have Grumpy (and dead) Luke...
    ChildoftheShadows

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,290

    mercster said:

    To sum up:



    Idea came up 2-3 years ago, dev dude thinks he has the system for the PERFECT MMORPG! Includes a lot of whales buying kingdoms, and they all say "But it's cool 'cuz some people will want to be peasants, they'll be doing fun stuff while us poor schlubs are running a kingdom!" I've never heard quite so much delusion, so early on in a project.



    Year(s) go buy of book-length theory-crafting posts from dev.



    Were gonna use SpatialOS, it was the backbone of everything; now not. Can only imagine the amount of thought and experience is going into these decisions.



    First version of game: web-based tactical kingdom simulator! Oh, and a text based MUD on the side to "test stuff."



    Months go by, more tl;dr masturbatory theory-crafting from game development savant.



    New idea: first version will be voxel-based! Minecraft with our huge complex pay-to-dominate backend!



    Mostly silence for half a year with occasional outbursts of "things are complicated..."



    I never bought in, not for a dime. I was part of another sinking ship (SotA, I'm not immune) but heard about some people telling me this was going to be the best thing since sliced bread. I read the concept and developer diaries, and could tell from the general tone of the dev and community that this would never, ever be a successful MMORPG.



    Sorry to anyone who "donated"! EDIT: Donated for multiple hundreds/thousands of dollars on whale packages, mind you



    User name checks out.
    TorvalChildoftheShadows
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,290
    TimEisen said:
    I want to welcome all of the new and uncharacteristically positive folks that made an account to join in this conversation. Always nice to have some new people contributing.



    @timeisen Wow... I don’t know whether to stand and applaud you or cry that they have driven all Hope from even you.



    To me it always comes down to a few simple things. Say what you mean. Do what you say you will do in roughly the time you say you will do it.



    It’s fine for a developer to talk the talk and push back on detractors. But then they better walk the walk and do what they said.



    Simply pulling Caspiens own words and then comparing them to reality should be all anyone needs to know about this project. From the silly timelines, to SpatialOS being what would enable all their lofty promises, to ElyriaMUD, to VoxElyria... to the Prelude... on and on and on there has been a massive deficiency in delivering.



    As I said in a recent thread comparing his Jan 2018 State of Elyria to what really was delivered last year, it’s easy to waste other people’s money.



    I still think it would make an interesting column for you to take the statements from the various Kickstarter MMORPGs from a year ago and compare them to reality today.








    The only thing Luke skywalker and I have in common is atubvirn hope. Him for his dad and me because thats all that’s there.


    But now we have Grumpy (and dead) Luke...
    Im just glad this one went well. Im guessing, by the lack of people demanding I be fired and claiming I hate a game I gave money to, that it didnt make it to the reddit, forums or discord haha. 
    TorvalChildoftheShadows
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,566
    It made it to the Discord... with the inevitable defense mechanism that this site is paid by publishers and since CoE doesn’t pay up they get bad article.  Pretty funny to read.

    On the plus side it produced a few new posters so maybe a few a will stick around.  That’s always a good thing.
    TimEisenTorvalChildoftheShadowsKyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,290
    It made it to the Discord... with the inevitable defense mechanism that this site is paid by publishers and since CoE doesn’t pay up they get bad article.  Pretty funny to read.

    On the plus side it produced a few new posters so maybe a few a will stick around.  That’s always a good thing.
    This site lives on mmos making news, if anything COE is exactly what we want and need to keep content coming. If anything my piece was a plea for them to pull it together. We dont want any mmo to fail, every new mmo is a new one to give us content and also, at the core, we here just goddamn love mmorpgs. 
    GdemamiChildoftheShadowsKyleran
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,332

    Amathe said:

    I knew this game was headed off the rails when they said there would be permadeath. 



    Wut? Did you read up how this would work? No? Okay....
    The only thing Permadead is this game....

    (And yes, New Members That Are Strangely Positive, that was a joke. I would love to be proven wrong by a great game but I highly doubt it.)

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    GdemamiChildoftheShadowsTimEisenKyleran
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 10,913
    edited January 17
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    GdemamiMendeltweedledumb99

     25 Agrees

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    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,164
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    What next? No reviews of released games from those who have actually bought and played the game?
    TorvalTimEisenSpottyGekkoKylerantweedledumb99
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • lahnmirlahnmir Member EpicPosts: 2,332
    Iselin said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    What next? No reviews of released games from those who have actually bought and played the game?
    I am for no forums at all. Everyone here has registered on the website to be able to post here. I am not sure people that display these kinds of interest can form an objective opinion at all.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    DakeruIselinOzmodanTacticalZombehTorvalScotMendelTimEisenSpottyGekkotweedledumb99
    'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'

    Kyleran on yours sincerely 


    But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.

    Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,700
    lahnmir said:
    Iselin said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    What next? No reviews of released games from those who have actually bought and played the game?
    I am for no forums at all. Everyone here has registered on the website to be able to post here. I am not sure people that display these kinds of interest can form an objective opinion at all.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Can't decide whether to give you an awesome or a lol.
    Please accept my honest meant lolsome.
    lahnmirSpottyGekkotweedledumb99
    Harbinger of Fools
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,403
    Kaeolyn said:
    I had backed the kickstarter but withdrew before it completed. I liked the idea, but it just didn't seem doable. After talking with people a few months ago, I made the decision to back the game. Initially, I was still apprehensive as we haven't seen anything from a game that promised to be in alpha and beta in the last year. I invested enough to gain access to NDA materials and while I will not reveal anything, They are moving forward. It still concerns me that we still haven't seen any in game footage. Other games who announced at a similar time have been streaming their prealpha for the last year (Pantheon). I do believe in the game. I think they will release something. It's expected to be entirely different than other MMO's. I remain hopeful that it will be something to play for years to come.

    I feel sorry for you, my condolences.
    Slapshot1188
    ....
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,403
    Lethallin said:
    I hope this game comes out permadeath sounds like a real challenge that I'm looking forward to instead of all the whiners complaining about perma death I look forward to killing people and knowing they might be actually dead and the thought of perma dying myself is gonna be intense If this game does come out I'm gonna play the hell outta it
    Permadeath is not a challenge it is an annoyance and the longer you live, the more it will hurt.  The amount of keyboards broken and holes in the wall from mice thrown against the wall would be awesome youtube material but lets not kid ourselves to think it is a fun mechanic because you will die, lose all your stuff, and you will be pissed and likely quit.
    Beyond that, in the wisdom of Caspien...they have tied this pain point to the monetization.  So now you have died, lost your character and they want you to spend $30 or something to start over.

    LOL

    That is not going to end well. Except of course for these early backers/IvoryTower who already have a dozen sparks of life from all the money they spent.  But the average player who was a peasant is going to think long and hard before spending more money to be someone else’s serf.



    "That is not going to end well"

    Lol, I see Slap is at it again with the misleading narrative; how can something "end" if it never even starts?
    DakeruSlapshot1188Ozmodan
    ....
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,423
    My take on kickstarter is this:

    Why gamble on something that may come to fruition when you can just wait for the stuff that actually comes to fruition. The benefit of KS a game is not worth the gamble in my opinion. 
    IselinYashaXScot
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 956
    edited January 17
    My take on kickstarter is this:

    Why gamble on something that may come to fruition when you can just wait for the stuff that actually comes to fruition. The benefit of KS a game is not worth the gamble in my opinion. 
    If the game can only come to fruition with Kickstarter? After all this is the real benefit of Kickstarter... not the rewards. 
    Gdemamitweedledumb99
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,700
    My take on kickstarter is this:

    Why gamble on something that may come to fruition when you can just wait for the stuff that actually comes to fruition. The benefit of KS a game is not worth the gamble in my opinion. 
    If the game can only come to fruition with Kickstarter? After all this is the real benefit of Kickstarter... not the rewards. 
    There has never been a MMO on kickstarter that acually released.
    Gdemami
    Harbinger of Fools
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,602
    It was apparant from the beginning that they were wildly optimistic with both what would be possible techanically and gameplay wise, and also time scheduling. Maybe a combination of overconfidence and lack of industry experience.

    It was/is refreshing to see someone trying to push this sad genre forward with "new" ideas (well ideas no one has dared exploring yet) , and as such CoE is all the way up there. Whether feature creep added to the problem I don't know, but it just doesn't sound realistic for such a small team to revolutionize so many concepts in one go.. EqNext tried it and broke, and they were supposedly a team of experienced developers with a lot of money backing (maybe?).

    Then there is the money issue. Afaik they were always upfront about the crowdfunding was to get the project started (correct me if you know otherwise), and that it would need outside investors to "finish" the project. They haven't been able to secure that investment, probably because of many factors such as attitude, unrealistic goals, and investors generally not investing much in mmos anymore, especially high risk ones.
    My guess is this has lead them into survival mode and slipping into p2w in order to keep their dream going and the studio alive. Indie developers are tough people willing to go far for their dream, they are entrepeneurs and it is not their nature to give up easily; not to mention imagine giving so much, live on a budget and work your ass off for years and then throw it all away? Not many can shrug that off and just walk away, so instead they stubbernly dig the hole deeper and deeper and corrupting the dream on the way.
    Is there still a chance? Maybe, but it seem clear to me that the corruption of the idea is in process, and it is not certain whether the developers can stop it.
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 956
    Dakeru said:
    My take on kickstarter is this:

    Why gamble on something that may come to fruition when you can just wait for the stuff that actually comes to fruition. The benefit of KS a game is not worth the gamble in my opinion. 
    If the game can only come to fruition with Kickstarter? After all this is the real benefit of Kickstarter... not the rewards. 
    There has never been a MMO on kickstarter that acually released.
    There are also some in development that would never have got as far as they have without it and likely many that would have been completed if they had the backing. 

    He he said it’s not worth the gamble, but since you’re not exactly gambling a lot of money on most cases and you have the opportunity to get the game you’ve always wanted I’d  argue it is worth it. 
    GdemamiYashaX
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,700
    There are also some in development that would never have got as far as they have without it and likely many that would have been completed if they had the backing. 

    The first part means you agree with me - no ks mmo has ever seen a release.
    The second part is pure speculation from your side.

    'If they have had more money they could have....'
    That's not very convincing.
    GdemamiYashaX
    Harbinger of Fools
  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 10,913
    Iselin said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    What next? No reviews of released games from those who have actually bought and played the game?
    Nope, I think my point is quite reasonable and perhaps that's why instead of addressing it you choose a facetious extrapolation from a sound principle.
    Ozmodan

     25 Agrees

    You received 25 Agrees. You're posting some good content. Great!

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Now Doesn't That Make You Feel All Warm And Fuzzy Inside? :P

  • MyrdynnMyrdynn Member RarePosts: 2,262
    edited January 17
    got this and Saga of Lucimia mixed up

  • OzmodanOzmodan Member EpicPosts: 9,352
    lahnmir said:
    Iselin said:
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    What next? No reviews of released games from those who have actually bought and played the game?
    I am for no forums at all. Everyone here has registered on the website to be able to post here. I am not sure people that display these kinds of interest can form an objective opinion at all.

    /Cheers,
    Lahnmir
    Dear Lahnmir, I beg to differ!
  • AmatheAmathe Member EpicPosts: 4,864
    Wherefore art thou Romeo meant that Romeo was vaporware.
    lahnmirGaladournCryomatrix

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,566
    kjempff said:

    Then there is the money issue. Afaik they were always upfront about the crowdfunding was to get the project started (correct me if you know otherwise), and that it would need outside investors to "finish" the project. 
    For the record they never mentioned this on their Kickstarter main page.As a matter of fact they had stretch goals like adding Mounted Combat etc...

    Also related:
    Massively OP: The sticking points seem to be the Kickstarter FAQ line that states, “The funding goal is the amount of money that a creator needs to complete their project” and the fact that COE’s Kickstarter verbiage itself doesn’t appear to mention that the $900K sought wasn’t the full amount (it’s buried in the 8000+ comments)

    He also said $1.2M gets a core game and Alpha 1 yet here we sit within over $5M raised and not there yet.

    He also said “it’s our intention that all of it be covered by investors, or at least, not players.“ Which obviously didn’t happen.

    He also said that closing refunds at the same time they announced this was and I quote “ I want to say it was a complete coincidence that we announced our refund policy going forward in the same update where we evidently made people aware we’re still looking for money from investors, etc.”

    https://massivelyop.com/2016/09/28/interview-chronicles-of-elyrias-jeromy-walsh-on-post-kickstarter-funding/


    So yeah... I kind of disagree that they were even close to upfront.

    OG_ZorvanGdemamiKylerantweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,475
    Scot said:
    I am not sure we should have articles about indie games from those who back them. Is it possible to detach yourself from the money you have put in? Either hoping for success in the early days or despairing you will ever see a game as the years go by.

    Also I think it might be good for the health of those who write gaming articles not to be put in this position, life has enough drama without buying into it. :)
    I think they ought to all be put in this position, like to write about a Upcoming MMO, you should need to have invested into it, that way you have a real astute feeling for it.

    Would it be impossible to be objective?

    Not really, it would be like judging a Beauty pageant where you had sex with all the contestants.. while it may be personally invested into all of them... it's still an even judge when comparing them.

    Just a counter thought to your point.
  • UngoodUngood Member EpicPosts: 2,475
    Also, I don't get the grip with being a "Serf" in a game, as that is the main set up every Guild, in every game, ever made.

    You have Guild Leaders (Kings and Queens), Officers (Nobels) and Members (peasants/serfs).

    Every single game you will ever play has this set up.... every single one, Thousands upon Thousands of Guild Leaders/Officers spend real money and life hours to build up their guild, and millions upon millions of players join these guilds to be serfs and peasants in them.

    Why the faux outrage at CoE for having this system?
    CryomatrixOzmodan
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