Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Ashes of Creation Team Previews Castle Sieges & Announces New Classes Coming Soon - MMORPG.com

124»

Comments

  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    edited January 14
    /snip

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    Kickstarter estimate was Winter 2015 and it's Winter 2018 (yes we're in Winter of 2018 even if Calendar year is 2019).

    How is that 6 years late lol?

    Edit: Kyleran covered this above.

    Edit 2: For full clarity, Kickstarter estimate was launch by December 31st, 2015, we're about 3 years later than that, not 6.

    Post edited by tweedledumb99 on
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    edited January 14
    /snip
    Guess I could have elaborated more on that point but you are correct.

    My thoughts are that they are attempting something different and much deeper and complex than what Jacobs is doing.  Jacobs should have the whole RvR thing under his belt by now.  And to add to that on its surface CU does not seem to be overly deep and I would even call it shallow.  Nothing that should have taken this long but my guess is they have more technical issues than they do design issues.  That is just a guess as I am not carefully following CU because as I said it seems quiet shallow.
    Curious what you mean by "CU seems quite shallow" (paraphrasing).

    One thing is for certain, and that's that CU is limited - if that's what you mean, then I agree.

    There's RvR, which consists of building, gathering, crafting, trading, organized PvP combat (including scouting and siege). That's it, that's what there is to do.

    That said, any or all of those systems might have great depth (and it seems like they will), which suggests the game won't be shallow.

    That also said, most medium sized MMORPG's have more to do than just 5 main things, so the scope is definitely narrow.

    TL;DR - if by shallow, you mean narrow, I agree, CU is narrow. If you really do mean shallow, I'm curious what you mean by that, cause from all I can see it's too early to say.

    Edit: seems Kyleran also covered this lol.
    Kyleran
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    edited January 14
    /snip
    Because that's not how reality works.  Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.  

    The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.

    What would you suggest people do?  Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue?  Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
    No, do what many pubs would; you cut the losses to prevent further wasted resources.  No chargebacks; backers have to be willing to accept that just because they threw $60, 100, or even $1000 dollars on a project, that will not guarantee the project is viable or will be successful.  Most say they are okay with this idea, but will then fight tooth and nail to defend the project and continue supporting it because, in the end, they don't really give a shit how the developers fund the game (ethical or not) once they've given some of their own cash.  They want the game, damn it, and any further means to that end is justified (by their own admission).

    Backers aren't able to fathom not seeing the product release, which is why they'll ignore signs of poor development progress or pivots by the developer studio and continue defending and funding the project.  It's an issue, because the end result is what @Torval alludes to: no accountability.
    That's a pretty fascinating point.

    Something I've wondered about for my backing of CU (I swear I'm not gonna derail with this comment, this is about my experience with CU but can apply to any other crowdfunded game):

    "how likely is it that I'm lying to myself; that I'm convincing me that the game I backed will come out, when actually it's pretty clear that it won't?"

    And the answer I get is an uncomfortable one: there's pretty good odds the game I backed won't come out (so many started games don't get published, or get gutted and launched as a husk), and thus pretty good odds that I continue to be emotionally invested in something I'll never get to play.

    It's not a comfortable thought.

    But as long as I keep seeing steady progress toward the goals, as long as playtesting continues to give me "whoa" moments, and as long as I see them being frugal with a financially sustainable team size for my estimate of their release (mid 2021), I can sit with that discomfort.

    I can sit with that discomfort because I realize there's an equally good chance the game does release.

    Whether it's good is an entirely different question lol.
    MadFrenchie
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    edited January 14
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one.  Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better.  My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.

    What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.

    They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense.  My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for.  They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are.  Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    In all fairness the original delivery estimate was two years, so in April he's coming up on "only" being four years late.

    I knew better six years ago,  but apparently Mark and these other industry "experts" didnt. 

    Or they were lying....you don't suppose....

     :o 
    >>>>>>>>>>>>> Responses to other people's CU comments>>>>>>>>

    I like MJ and CSE, but all of his responses about "well we believed that a 2015 release date was possible" all seem a bit too lawyerly for my tastes.

    Yes, it was possible, but how likely was it to build a game engine in 2.5 years with a game on top of it that's capable of at least 4 MAJOR things MMORPG's hadn't pulled off successfully -

    1) fully 3D rendered 500 player battles at 30+ FPS in a small space
    2) fully fleshed out spell interaction system (I think GW2's implementation is fairly limited)
    3) block by block building and building destruction
    4) full server-side physics...

    How they thought they'd do this, plus balance and bug fixes and polish, in 2.5 years, is just completely fucking beyond me lol.

    Edit: On a brighter note, they seem to have nailed 2.9/4 so far:

    - in their current build, they have server side physics implemented and it works well,
    - they have block by block building and block by block destruction and rubble,
    - and they have shown 30+ FPS 500 player battles, battles that I've been in.

    The missing 1.1/4 is from not having their spell interaction system in yet, and the block by block rubble physics could use some polish (which it's getting at a pretty fast pace).

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Responses to the AoC topic of the thread >>>>>>>>>>

    Edit 2 - to tie it back in to the thread subject and atone for my sins of thread-derailing:

    1) It's possible that AoC is truly pivoting away from making the MMO and toward the Apocalypse BR game, and will let MMO development limp along for years and put few resources into it, just enough resources that they're covered against class action lawsuits and the like (e.g. ticking off features that on-paper cover their KS promises while failing to make an enjoyable or coherent game).

    2) It's also possible that they 100% plan to make the MMO, but saw a way to make easy money from their MMO work by spinning off a BR mode, and were willing to take a relatively minor hit to MMO development-progress in order to make that revenue.

    It's too soon to know which path they've chosen, and it's early enough for them to switch from path 1 (not good) to path 2 (good) if they decided to secretly shift focus to the BR game indefinitely.

    If in 8 or 10 months from now, we don't know much more about the MMORPG, and haven't seen tests or streaming of some of the first-passes of the MMORPG's unique features, but have seen lots of hype and excitement and gameplay reveals and streams for the BR, then I'll get concerned.

    But right now, it's too soon to know, so this is a time of uncertainty (as much as naysayers claim they know 100% the MMORPG won't happen, or as much as supporters claim that 100% the MMORPG will be fully fleshed out and delivered in a reasonable time).
    Post edited by tweedledumb99 on
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,938
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one.  Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better.  My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.

    What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.

    They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense.  My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for.  They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are.  Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    In all fairness the original delivery estimate was two years, so in April he's coming up on "only" being four years late.

    I knew better six years ago,  but apparently Mark and these other industry "experts" didnt. 

    Or they were lying....you don't suppose....

     :o 
    I like MJ and CSE, but all of his responses about "well we believed that a 2015 release date was possible" all seem a bit too lawyerly for my tastes.

    Yes, it was possible, but how likely was it to build an engine in 2.5 years with a game on top of it that's capable of at least 4 MAJOR things MMORPG's hadn't pulled off successfully -

    1) fully 3D rendered 500 player battles at 30+ FPS in a small space
    2) fully fleshed out spell interaction system (I think GW2's implementation is fairly limited)
    3) block by block building and building destruction
    4) full server-side physics...

    How they thought they'd do this, plus balance and bug fixes, in 2.5 years, is just completely fucking beyond me lol.
    Perhaps his greatest misjudgment in the early days was not realizing it was going to be quite difficult to draw game development talent to their Virginia studios.

    He eventually rectified this by opening the Seattle studio 2 or 3 yrs in.
    tweedledumb99ConstantineMerus

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    edited January 14
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    /snip
    In all fairness the original delivery estimate was two years, so in April he's coming up on "only" being four years late.

    I knew better six years ago,  but apparently Mark and these other industry "experts" didnt. 

    Or they were lying....you don't suppose....

     :o 
    I like MJ and CSE, but all of his responses about "well we believed that a 2015 release date was possible" all seem a bit too lawyerly for my tastes.

    Yes, it was possible, but how likely was it to build an engine in 2.5 years with a game on top of it that's capable of at least 4 MAJOR things MMORPG's hadn't pulled off successfully -

    1) fully 3D rendered 500 player battles at 30+ FPS in a small space
    2) fully fleshed out spell interaction system (I think GW2's implementation is fairly limited)
    3) block by block building and building destruction
    4) full server-side physics...

    How they thought they'd do this, plus balance and bug fixes, in 2.5 years, is just completely fucking beyond me lol.
    Perhaps his greatest misjudgment in the early days was not realizing it was going to be quite difficult to draw game development talent to their Virginia studios.

    He eventually rectified this by opening the Seattle studio 2 or 3 yrs in.
    Agreed, I remember him admitting to this on stream a while back a few times.

    I think their dates were too optimistic, maybe naive, considering how many things they're trying to do that don't have standard (or buyable) solutions.

    Even with 5.2 years of development behind them, and even with a team that's close to the size they've wanted, it's looking like another 1.5-2.5 years of development to get to a polished, stable, fun release candidate.

    I'm not saying they were lying about their initial estimates, but I will say that if I was leading a project with this scope and wanted to raise money from fans, I would've been damn tempted to be as optimistic as possible to make sure my project got off the ground.

    Edit: I don't feel negatively/ill toward them, although I'm definitely venting my frustrations here lol - considering the tech hurdles they've faced, I admire how they've dealt with things. They've done it with tenacity, nerdy grace, commitment, and generousness. That's pretty cool.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,938
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    /snip
    In all fairness the original delivery estimate was two years, so in April he's coming up on "only" being four years late.

    I knew better six years ago,  but apparently Mark and these other industry "experts" didnt. 

    Or they were lying....you don't suppose....

     :o 
    I like MJ and CSE, but all of his responses about "well we believed that a 2015 release date was possible" all seem a bit too lawyerly for my tastes.

    Yes, it was possible, but how likely was it to build an engine in 2.5 years with a game on top of it that's capable of at least 4 MAJOR things MMORPG's hadn't pulled off successfully -

    1) fully 3D rendered 500 player battles at 30+ FPS in a small space
    2) fully fleshed out spell interaction system (I think GW2's implementation is fairly limited)
    3) block by block building and building destruction
    4) full server-side physics...

    How they thought they'd do this, plus balance and bug fixes, in 2.5 years, is just completely fucking beyond me lol.
    Perhaps his greatest misjudgment in the early days was not realizing it was going to be quite difficult to draw game development talent to their Virginia studios.

    He eventually rectified this by opening the Seattle studio 2 or 3 yrs in.
    Agreed, I remember him admitting to this on stream a while back a few times.

    I think their dates were too optimistic, maybe naive, considering how many things they're trying to do that don't have standard (or buyable) solutions.

    Even with 5.2 years of development behind them, and even with a team that's close to the size they've wanted, it's looking like another 1.5-2.5 years of development to get to a polished, stable, fun release candidate.

    I'm not saying they were lying about their initial estimates, but I will say that if I was leading a project with this scope and wanted to raise money from fans, I would've been damn tempted to be as optimistic as possible to make sure my project got off the ground.

    Edit: I don't feel negatively/ill toward them, although I'm definitely venting my frustrations here lol - considering the tech hurdles they've faced, I admire how they've dealt with things. They've done it with tenacity, nerdy grace, commitment, and generousness. That's pretty cool.
    I too don't harbor any ill will over how late it is, when I backed it I did so with no thought of ever asking for my money back and truthfully,  not sure I would really ever play as PVP centric games really aren't my thing.

    My pet peeve is I believe after this much time is passed they should be able to provide a tentative release schedule which as I recall Mark said last January after the new funding came in he would be able to do after formal testing got going.

    Well, I think we are still in "beta" 1.0 maybe, and not making a lot of progress towards that goal, yet every week I get an email saying busy, busy, busy and how much was "accomplished.
    ConstantineMerusTorvaltweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,938
    Looking fantastic. As a tester and someone very involved with the development process, I can say for sure the progress to Alpha1 phase (mmo testing) is coming along very nicely.
    A few hiccups on the way but its getting there.
    Welcome to the forums, always great to have new joiners.

    As you are "in the know" with regards to testing progress on the Ashes MMORPG, which we've not heard too much about lately, can you opine on how likely the "real game" will launch before year's end?

    Have you seen much on the node evolution system?


    tweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,375
    I think Mark Jacobs is one of the very few people I'm willing to put my faith in.
    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,938
    edited January 14
    punahou said:
    We have seen zero class diversification

    Foundation for 4 archetypes has been available and playable since 3 months after their Kickstarter. It was tested in the PAX demo's and the Alpha Zero. Here you go, the first showing: 
    punahou said:
    zero mmo diversification

    By MMO diversification do you mean with biomes or what exactly? You can watch a rough walk through of their full Alpha zero build here which was a functional level up to 10 MMO: 
    punahou said:
    and zero open world dungeon/quest elements.

    Here's one of their three+ open world dungeons:  Maybe before you post a comment next time you can hit that google search engine for a couple minutes first? Literally almost all these videos are available on their youtube page.
    Total disclaimer first,  I normally don't watch videos of people playing games, reserving them for music as I'm from an era when MTV played them.

    It appears most of what you shared is quite old,  so I have to ask if there is anything posted there from say the last 3 months, and in particular can show how node evolution has been shaping up.

    With launch due sometime late this year I would expect they have made significant progress and would like to see a video on the latest iteration.

    Thanks in advance.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    There was a gameplay stream posted about a month or so ago of the BR map converted into the MMORPG game set, but about the only progress I saw regarding nodes was a mayor interface showing the city they were in was one step below the max level.  Didn't see a lot of other information about mode development in that video, though there's at least an interface there. :D 

    I was skipping around a bit, as I normally don't watch lengthy, uncut gameplay videos either.

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,938
    edited January 14
    There was a gameplay stream posted about a month or so ago of the BR map converted into the MMORPG game set, but about the only progress I saw regarding nodes was a mayor interface showing the city they were in was one step below the max level.  Didn't see a lot of other information about mode development in that video, though there's at least an interface there. :D 

    I was skipping around a bit, as I normally don't watch lengthy, uncut gameplay videos either.
    Yeah, that's the problem with videos, very hard to search and quickly scan for the info you are looking for if not included in the title.

    They need a short synopsis of their contents like @jahlon does for his for us here that search engines could hone in on.

    If a video is longer than 10 minutes I'm probably never watching it and why are so few of them properly edited?

    Most have tons of time wasting content of the streamers trying to get logged in, set up, and too often are filled with lots of distracting background noise like dogs barking, children screaming , or worst of all, other streaming partners rambling, belching or farting during the production.

    Time for steaming to go "Hollywood."

    :D

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • MazenealMazeneal Member UncommonPosts: 38
    I imagine a lot of backers will want refunds, now.......this is some BS, the next update really needed to reassure the backers of the MMO that the MMO was still the focus\goal....
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,660
    Kyleran said:
    Agreed, I remember him admitting to this on stream a while back a few times.

    I think their dates were too optimistic, maybe naive, considering how many things they're trying to do that don't have standard (or buyable) solutions.

    Even with 5.2 years of development behind them, and even with a team that's close to the size they've wanted, it's looking like another 1.5-2.5 years of development to get to a polished, stable, fun release candidate.

    I'm not saying they were lying about their initial estimates, but I will say that if I was leading a project with this scope and wanted to raise money from fans, I would've been damn tempted to be as optimistic as possible to make sure my project got off the ground.

    Edit: I don't feel negatively/ill toward them, although I'm definitely venting my frustrations here lol - considering the tech hurdles they've faced, I admire how they've dealt with things. They've done it with tenacity, nerdy grace, commitment, and generousness. That's pretty cool.
    I too don't harbor any ill will over how late it is, when I backed it I did so with no thought of ever asking for my money back and truthfully,  not sure I would really ever play as PVP centric games really aren't my thing.

    My pet peeve is I believe after this much time is passed they should be able to provide a tentative release schedule which as I recall Mark said last January after the new funding came in he would be able to do after formal testing got going.

    Well, I think we are still in "beta" 1.0 maybe, and not making a lot of progress towards that goal, yet every week I get an email saying busy, busy, busy and how much was "accomplished.
    I agree with you but it doesn't matter. I think crowd funded projects work differently, not just for the initial start, but how they keep momentum going. Normal games funded through business channels are conducted like business projects. Crowd funded games are a tribalistic experience more akin to sports or social organizations, clubs, religious groups, and MLM. Stakeholders vehemently excuse the clubs (games) they're invested in while undermining those they aren't.

    There is a huge disconnect between people uninvested in the projects directly and those deeply invested both financially and emotionally. Look at the threads for each game and see what each of us posts for each, which are all essentially guilty of the same "crimes", and how they differ. Look for inconsistencies. It's very interesting. 

    Remember when the BR for this game was late and there was an outrage? Now read this thread, if you want, and notice how people explain away lateness with "project transparency" and their own positive spin. These are the deeply invested. That doesn't excuse anything about this BR fiasco, but it hopefully shines some perspective on why I think the problem perpetuates with no end in sight. There are bonus points for noticing the sales pitch for the milk machine.

    In some ways crowd funded games have replaced traditional gaming clubs and communities. I think people put up with the crap because those communities have a life about them whereas most others don't. Even here it's super negative all the time. In those crowd-funded game communities those invested in the game have a place to go and socialize. That enables them to justify the flaws because the community interaction is worth the cost.
    SovrathKylerantweedledumb99MadFrenchie
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

    It only took 3 people 8 words to rock Blizzard to its core.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,938
    Mazeneal said:
    I imagine a lot of backers will want refunds, now.......this is some BS, the next update really needed to reassure the backers of the MMO that the MMO was still the focus\goal....
    They might want them, but Ashes only promise was to refund KSer backers if and only if "a game" was not delivered.

    Well, this is "a game" after all, and I don't believe the promise was specifically for a MMORPG.

    As often Steven words things so carefully he always has an out, which at first I thought was accidental but it's happened far too often now to be anything but evil genius.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 246
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Agreed, I remember him admitting to this on stream a while back a few times.

    I think their dates were too optimistic, maybe naive, considering how many things they're trying to do that don't have standard (or buyable) solutions.

    Even with 5.2 years of development behind them, and even with a team that's close to the size they've wanted, it's looking like another 1.5-2.5 years of development to get to a polished, stable, fun release candidate.

    I'm not saying they were lying about their initial estimates, but I will say that if I was leading a project with this scope and wanted to raise money from fans, I would've been damn tempted to be as optimistic as possible to make sure my project got off the ground.

    Edit: I don't feel negatively/ill toward them, although I'm definitely venting my frustrations here lol - considering the tech hurdles they've faced, I admire how they've dealt with things. They've done it with tenacity, nerdy grace, commitment, and generousness. That's pretty cool.
    I too don't harbor any ill will over how late it is, when I backed it I did so with no thought of ever asking for my money back and truthfully,  not sure I would really ever play as PVP centric games really aren't my thing.

    My pet peeve is I believe after this much time is passed they should be able to provide a tentative release schedule which as I recall Mark said last January after the new funding came in he would be able to do after formal testing got going.

    Well, I think we are still in "beta" 1.0 maybe, and not making a lot of progress towards that goal, yet every week I get an email saying busy, busy, busy and how much was "accomplished.
    I agree with you but it doesn't matter. I think crowd funded projects work differently, not just for the initial start, but how they keep momentum going. Normal games funded through business channels are conducted like business projects. Crowd funded games are a tribalistic experience more akin to sports or social organizations, clubs, religious groups, and MLM. Stakeholders vehemently excuse the clubs (games) they're invested in while undermining those they aren't.

    There is a huge disconnect between people uninvested in the projects directly and those deeply invested both financially and emotionally. Look at the threads for each game and see what each of us posts for each, which are all essentially guilty of the same "crimes", and how they differ. Look for inconsistencies. It's very interesting. 

    Remember when the BR for this game was late and there was an outrage? Now read this thread, if you want, and notice how people explain away lateness with "project transparency" and their own positive spin. These are the deeply invested. That doesn't excuse anything about this BR fiasco, but it hopefully shines some perspective on why I think the problem perpetuates with no end in sight. There are bonus points for noticing the sales pitch for the milk machine.

    In some ways crowd funded games have replaced traditional gaming clubs and communities. I think people put up with the crap because those communities have a life about them whereas most others don't. Even here it's super negative all the time. In those crowd-funded game communities those invested in the game have a place to go and socialize. That enables them to justify the flaws because the community interaction is worth the cost.
    Well said.

    Two quick things I'll add:

    I reserve my dislike only for game devs that seem to be jerking around their backers and supporters - I don't/won't play Crowfall or Pantheon but I like their devs' style, commitment, lack of bullshit, so I praise them even though they're technically competitors to the game I back. At least I'm pretty sure that's how I operate, I may have blindspots around this or have been inconsistent.

    I'm a part of the CU community but if the game is still thrashing away in the weeds of Beta 1 (i.e. not wrapped or wrapping up Beta 1) by the end of next Winter, I won't stick around, despite the community.
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 4,682
    edited January 14
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Agreed, I remember him admitting to this on stream a while back a few times.

    I think their dates were too optimistic, maybe naive, considering how many things they're trying to do that don't have standard (or buyable) solutions.

    Even with 5.2 years of development behind them, and even with a team that's close to the size they've wanted, it's looking like another 1.5-2.5 years of development to get to a polished, stable, fun release candidate.

    I'm not saying they were lying about their initial estimates, but I will say that if I was leading a project with this scope and wanted to raise money from fans, I would've been damn tempted to be as optimistic as possible to make sure my project got off the ground.

    Edit: I don't feel negatively/ill toward them, although I'm definitely venting my frustrations here lol - considering the tech hurdles they've faced, I admire how they've dealt with things. They've done it with tenacity, nerdy grace, commitment, and generousness. That's pretty cool.
    I too don't harbor any ill will over how late it is, when I backed it I did so with no thought of ever asking for my money back and truthfully,  not sure I would really ever play as PVP centric games really aren't my thing.

    My pet peeve is I believe after this much time is passed they should be able to provide a tentative release schedule which as I recall Mark said last January after the new funding came in he would be able to do after formal testing got going.

    Well, I think we are still in "beta" 1.0 maybe, and not making a lot of progress towards that goal, yet every week I get an email saying busy, busy, busy and how much was "accomplished.
    I agree with you but it doesn't matter. I think crowd funded projects work differently, not just for the initial start, but how they keep momentum going. Normal games funded through business channels are conducted like business projects. Crowd funded games are a tribalistic experience more akin to sports or social organizations, clubs, religious groups, and MLM. Stakeholders vehemently excuse the clubs (games) they're invested in while undermining those they aren't.

    There is a huge disconnect between people uninvested in the projects directly and those deeply invested both financially and emotionally. Look at the threads for each game and see what each of us posts for each, which are all essentially guilty of the same "crimes", and how they differ. Look for inconsistencies. It's very interesting. 

    Remember when the BR for this game was late and there was an outrage? Now read this thread, if you want, and notice how people explain away lateness with "project transparency" and their own positive spin. These are the deeply invested. That doesn't excuse anything about this BR fiasco, but it hopefully shines some perspective on why I think the problem perpetuates with no end in sight. There are bonus points for noticing the sales pitch for the milk machine.

    In some ways crowd funded games have replaced traditional gaming clubs and communities. I think people put up with the crap because those communities have a life about them whereas most others don't. Even here it's super negative all the time. In those crowd-funded game communities those invested in the game have a place to go and socialize. That enables them to justify the flaws because the community interaction is worth the cost.
    Crowd funded games aren't like religions beyond the surface level of slavish devotion to a promise. Crowd funding projects have actually produced some things that actually exist (Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2 say hi). Religions never have. And I'm pretty sure crowdfunding has never killed anyone (probably... I hope... please tell me no one has been murdered over Star Citizen yet).
    Slapshot1188Kyleran
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,660
    Aeander said:
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Agreed, I remember him admitting to this on stream a while back a few times.

    I think their dates were too optimistic, maybe naive, considering how many things they're trying to do that don't have standard (or buyable) solutions.

    Even with 5.2 years of development behind them, and even with a team that's close to the size they've wanted, it's looking like another 1.5-2.5 years of development to get to a polished, stable, fun release candidate.

    I'm not saying they were lying about their initial estimates, but I will say that if I was leading a project with this scope and wanted to raise money from fans, I would've been damn tempted to be as optimistic as possible to make sure my project got off the ground.

    Edit: I don't feel negatively/ill toward them, although I'm definitely venting my frustrations here lol - considering the tech hurdles they've faced, I admire how they've dealt with things. They've done it with tenacity, nerdy grace, commitment, and generousness. That's pretty cool.
    I too don't harbor any ill will over how late it is, when I backed it I did so with no thought of ever asking for my money back and truthfully,  not sure I would really ever play as PVP centric games really aren't my thing.

    My pet peeve is I believe after this much time is passed they should be able to provide a tentative release schedule which as I recall Mark said last January after the new funding came in he would be able to do after formal testing got going.

    Well, I think we are still in "beta" 1.0 maybe, and not making a lot of progress towards that goal, yet every week I get an email saying busy, busy, busy and how much was "accomplished.
    I agree with you but it doesn't matter. I think crowd funded projects work differently, not just for the initial start, but how they keep momentum going. Normal games funded through business channels are conducted like business projects. Crowd funded games are a tribalistic experience more akin to sports or social organizations, clubs, religious groups, and MLM. Stakeholders vehemently excuse the clubs (games) they're invested in while undermining those they aren't.

    There is a huge disconnect between people uninvested in the projects directly and those deeply invested both financially and emotionally. Look at the threads for each game and see what each of us posts for each, which are all essentially guilty of the same "crimes", and how they differ. Look for inconsistencies. It's very interesting. 

    Remember when the BR for this game was late and there was an outrage? Now read this thread, if you want, and notice how people explain away lateness with "project transparency" and their own positive spin. These are the deeply invested. That doesn't excuse anything about this BR fiasco, but it hopefully shines some perspective on why I think the problem perpetuates with no end in sight. There are bonus points for noticing the sales pitch for the milk machine.

    In some ways crowd funded games have replaced traditional gaming clubs and communities. I think people put up with the crap because those communities have a life about them whereas most others don't. Even here it's super negative all the time. In those crowd-funded game communities those invested in the game have a place to go and socialize. That enables them to justify the flaws because the community interaction is worth the cost.
    Crowd funded games aren't like religions beyond the surface level of slavish devotion to a promise. Crowd funding projects have actually produced some things that actually exist (Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2 say hi). Religions never have. And I'm pretty sure crowdfunding has never killed anyone (probably... I hope... please tell me no one has been murdered over Star Citizen yet).
    You missed my point. This isn't a commentary about religious beliefs. It was likening crowd funding to other social groups bound together by common ideals and goals in a tribalistic nature. Sports is another example that has similar behaviors to religious and special interest clubs. They all share a lot of common features especially being deeply personally invested in the social group.
    MadFrenchieKyleran
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

    It only took 3 people 8 words to rock Blizzard to its core.
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 4,682
    Torval said:
    Aeander said:
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Agreed, I remember him admitting to this on stream a while back a few times.

    I think their dates were too optimistic, maybe naive, considering how many things they're trying to do that don't have standard (or buyable) solutions.

    Even with 5.2 years of development behind them, and even with a team that's close to the size they've wanted, it's looking like another 1.5-2.5 years of development to get to a polished, stable, fun release candidate.

    I'm not saying they were lying about their initial estimates, but I will say that if I was leading a project with this scope and wanted to raise money from fans, I would've been damn tempted to be as optimistic as possible to make sure my project got off the ground.

    Edit: I don't feel negatively/ill toward them, although I'm definitely venting my frustrations here lol - considering the tech hurdles they've faced, I admire how they've dealt with things. They've done it with tenacity, nerdy grace, commitment, and generousness. That's pretty cool.
    I too don't harbor any ill will over how late it is, when I backed it I did so with no thought of ever asking for my money back and truthfully,  not sure I would really ever play as PVP centric games really aren't my thing.

    My pet peeve is I believe after this much time is passed they should be able to provide a tentative release schedule which as I recall Mark said last January after the new funding came in he would be able to do after formal testing got going.

    Well, I think we are still in "beta" 1.0 maybe, and not making a lot of progress towards that goal, yet every week I get an email saying busy, busy, busy and how much was "accomplished.
    I agree with you but it doesn't matter. I think crowd funded projects work differently, not just for the initial start, but how they keep momentum going. Normal games funded through business channels are conducted like business projects. Crowd funded games are a tribalistic experience more akin to sports or social organizations, clubs, religious groups, and MLM. Stakeholders vehemently excuse the clubs (games) they're invested in while undermining those they aren't.

    There is a huge disconnect between people uninvested in the projects directly and those deeply invested both financially and emotionally. Look at the threads for each game and see what each of us posts for each, which are all essentially guilty of the same "crimes", and how they differ. Look for inconsistencies. It's very interesting. 

    Remember when the BR for this game was late and there was an outrage? Now read this thread, if you want, and notice how people explain away lateness with "project transparency" and their own positive spin. These are the deeply invested. That doesn't excuse anything about this BR fiasco, but it hopefully shines some perspective on why I think the problem perpetuates with no end in sight. There are bonus points for noticing the sales pitch for the milk machine.

    In some ways crowd funded games have replaced traditional gaming clubs and communities. I think people put up with the crap because those communities have a life about them whereas most others don't. Even here it's super negative all the time. In those crowd-funded game communities those invested in the game have a place to go and socialize. That enables them to justify the flaws because the community interaction is worth the cost.
    Crowd funded games aren't like religions beyond the surface level of slavish devotion to a promise. Crowd funding projects have actually produced some things that actually exist (Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2 say hi). Religions never have. And I'm pretty sure crowdfunding has never killed anyone (probably... I hope... please tell me no one has been murdered over Star Citizen yet).
    You missed my point. This isn't a commentary about religious beliefs. It was likening crowd funding to other social groups bound together by common ideals and goals in a tribalistic nature. Sports is another example that has similar behaviors to religious and special interest clubs. They all share a lot of common features especially being deeply personally invested in the social group.
    That much is true. But at the same time, such behavior has been a part of established games from the beginning, and especially with the rise of online gaming. MMOs in particular thrive on it.
  • GeekyGeeky Member UncommonPosts: 379
    I will not be playing this game. Even before they entirely switched directions, back when it was an MMO I wasn't all that interested. Some of their concepts sounded nice, but the idea of PvP Castle sieges ala DarkFall Online was a turn off. Now that they've gone full retard and decided to make a Battle Royale game this is a complete zero from me.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    Aeander said:
    Torval said:
    Aeander said:
    Torval said:
    Kyleran said:
    Agreed, I remember him admitting to this on stream a while back a few times.

    I think their dates were too optimistic, maybe naive, considering how many things they're trying to do that don't have standard (or buyable) solutions.

    Even with 5.2 years of development behind them, and even with a team that's close to the size they've wanted, it's looking like another 1.5-2.5 years of development to get to a polished, stable, fun release candidate.

    I'm not saying they were lying about their initial estimates, but I will say that if I was leading a project with this scope and wanted to raise money from fans, I would've been damn tempted to be as optimistic as possible to make sure my project got off the ground.

    Edit: I don't feel negatively/ill toward them, although I'm definitely venting my frustrations here lol - considering the tech hurdles they've faced, I admire how they've dealt with things. They've done it with tenacity, nerdy grace, commitment, and generousness. That's pretty cool.
    I too don't harbor any ill will over how late it is, when I backed it I did so with no thought of ever asking for my money back and truthfully,  not sure I would really ever play as PVP centric games really aren't my thing.

    My pet peeve is I believe after this much time is passed they should be able to provide a tentative release schedule which as I recall Mark said last January after the new funding came in he would be able to do after formal testing got going.

    Well, I think we are still in "beta" 1.0 maybe, and not making a lot of progress towards that goal, yet every week I get an email saying busy, busy, busy and how much was "accomplished.
    I agree with you but it doesn't matter. I think crowd funded projects work differently, not just for the initial start, but how they keep momentum going. Normal games funded through business channels are conducted like business projects. Crowd funded games are a tribalistic experience more akin to sports or social organizations, clubs, religious groups, and MLM. Stakeholders vehemently excuse the clubs (games) they're invested in while undermining those they aren't.

    There is a huge disconnect between people uninvested in the projects directly and those deeply invested both financially and emotionally. Look at the threads for each game and see what each of us posts for each, which are all essentially guilty of the same "crimes", and how they differ. Look for inconsistencies. It's very interesting. 

    Remember when the BR for this game was late and there was an outrage? Now read this thread, if you want, and notice how people explain away lateness with "project transparency" and their own positive spin. These are the deeply invested. That doesn't excuse anything about this BR fiasco, but it hopefully shines some perspective on why I think the problem perpetuates with no end in sight. There are bonus points for noticing the sales pitch for the milk machine.

    In some ways crowd funded games have replaced traditional gaming clubs and communities. I think people put up with the crap because those communities have a life about them whereas most others don't. Even here it's super negative all the time. In those crowd-funded game communities those invested in the game have a place to go and socialize. That enables them to justify the flaws because the community interaction is worth the cost.
    Crowd funded games aren't like religions beyond the surface level of slavish devotion to a promise. Crowd funding projects have actually produced some things that actually exist (Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2 say hi). Religions never have. And I'm pretty sure crowdfunding has never killed anyone (probably... I hope... please tell me no one has been murdered over Star Citizen yet).
    You missed my point. This isn't a commentary about religious beliefs. It was likening crowd funding to other social groups bound together by common ideals and goals in a tribalistic nature. Sports is another example that has similar behaviors to religious and special interest clubs. They all share a lot of common features especially being deeply personally invested in the social group.
    That much is true. But at the same time, such behavior has been a part of established games from the beginning, and especially with the rise of online gaming. MMOs in particular thrive on it.
    While true, that seemed to be fading from this genre a bit with the rise of anonymous group finder.  Close-knit communities of guilds/alliances became a small subsection of the player population, instead of encompassing most of the player population.  At least until the crowdfunding campaign @Torval is referencing.
    Torval

    image
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,054
    People used to defend the games.  I never really got the point as I think if a game is good it doesn't need a random internet warrior defending it, but we have (d)evolved beyond that.  Now we defend concepts and screenshots. Maybe a tech demo.  We don't even HAVE games to defend in most cases...

    It has shifted more from 2 people arguing over some semblance of facts (a game that existed) to arguing about faith, hope, and dreams.  IMHO it becomes more and more cult-like every day.


    MadFrenchieKyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

Sign In or Register to comment.