Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Ashes of Creation Team Previews Castle Sieges & Announces New Classes Coming Soon - MMORPG.com

13

Comments

  • punahoupunahou Member UncommonPosts: 12
    the irritating thing I have posted about ad nauseum about this game on Krojak's youtube videos is that this game looks like its headed in the battle royale direction.

    That's all we see.   We have seen zero class diversification, zero mmo diversification, and zero open world dungeon/quest elements.

    The fact that this game has gained a following based on the battle royale aspect is disturbing, and investors nad developers may lean that way and scrap the mmo portion based on the BR interest.

    Do we all remember EQnext?

    What was their mistake?

    1) resources poured into Landmark
    2) Landmark PVP eneabled--- which converted Landmark into a battle royale.

    And so far-- all indicators are this game is headed in that direction.


  • LurvLurv Member UncommonPosts: 400
    How is this still top voted game in development on here?

    New build in progress.
    Stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,445
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one.  Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better.  My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.

    What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.

    They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense.  My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for.  They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are.  Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    TorvalKylerantweedledumb99
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,450
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one.  Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better.  My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.

    What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.

    They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense.  My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for.  They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are.  Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    Hey... Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton have as much if not more experience than MJ (Walton definitely...)
    Torvaltweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 18,703
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one.  Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better.  My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.

    What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.

    They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense.  My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for.  They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are.  Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    Hey... Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton have as much if not more experience than MJ (Walton definitely...)
    None of the bigger projects are light on experience in my opinion including Ashes. I don't hold Mark to a higher standard. Any of the projects that take that long are going to receive criticism from me, not just CU.

    One seeming problem is that these projects make some big attractive claims early on to hook players. They get stuck on trying to perfect those or deliver "the vision". I think that detracts from just making a good game. It's restrictive. CU has to deliver the remarkable concurrent performance, while Crowfall, Ashes, SC, and others each have their own laundry list of baggage they've added. If they can't and don't deliver those they'll be brutally castigated. They shouldn't have ever made big claims in the first place, now they're stuck trying to keep up and live up to the perpetual hype they started with. It feels impossible to me.
    Slapshot1188parrotpholk
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,445
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one.  Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better.  My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.

    What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.

    They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense.  My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for.  They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are.  Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    Hey... Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton have as much if not more experience than MJ (Walton definitely...)
    Guess I could have elaborated more on that point but you are correct.

    My thoughts are that they are attempting something different and much deeper and complex than what Jacobs is doing.  Jacobs should have the whole RvR thing under his belt by now.  And to add to that on its surface CU does not seem to be overly deep and I would even call it shallow.  Nothing that should have taken this long but my guess is they have more technical issues than they do design issues.  That is just a guess as I am not carefully following CU because as I said it seems quiet shallow.
    tweedledumb99
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,450
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one.  Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better.  My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.

    What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.

    They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense.  My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for.  They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are.  Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    Hey... Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton have as much if not more experience than MJ (Walton definitely...)
    Guess I could have elaborated more on that point but you are correct.

    My thoughts are that they are attempting something different and much deeper and complex than what Jacobs is doing.  Jacobs should have the whole RvR thing under his belt by now.  And to add to that on its surface CU does not seem to be overly deep and I would even call it shallow.  Nothing that should have taken this long but my guess is they have more technical issues than they do design issues.  That is just a guess as I am not carefully following CU because as I said it seems quiet shallow.
    The difference is in the engine which is what is taking so long.  As someone else posted above, MJ and CU have hinged their hat on MASSIVE RvR battles.  To make this happen they had to build their own engine.   If it works they will have made a great achievement.  If it fails, it will have been an utter waste of time.   We shall see.


    Kylerantweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,588

    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Why do you accept that those are the only choices?  It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm...  Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
    Because that's not how reality works.  Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.  

    The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.

    What would you suggest people do?  Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue?  Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,450

    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Why do you accept that those are the only choices?  It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm...  Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
    Because that's not how reality works.  Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.  

    The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.

    What would you suggest people do?  Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue?  Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
    No.. I would actually suggest holding people accountable for what they sell which includes roughly the time they sold it for delivery.  Not quite sure why that is such a radical idea.  

    Delays happen?  Sure... build that into your planned ETA.  Give me an ETA of 18 months and then 48 months later you are still in Alpha?   Fuck no!

    By the way that is EXACTLY how reality works outside of this bizzaro crowdfunded game world we have allowed to exist.   Dekay all you want, and I might even cheer your decision as long as you offer the customer the ability to refund.  Don't expect the customer to pay the price for your ineptitude.


    Torvaltweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,055
    edited January 13

    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Why do you accept that those are the only choices?  It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm...  Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
    Because that's not how reality works.  Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.  

    The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.

    What would you suggest people do?  Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue?  Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
    No, do what many pubs would; you cut the losses to prevent further wasted resources.  No chargebacks; backers have to be willing to accept that just because they threw $60, 100, or even $1000 dollars on a project, that will not guarantee the project is viable or will be successful.  Most say they are okay with this idea, but will then fight tooth and nail to defend the project and continue supporting it because, in the end, they don't really give a shit how the developers fund the game (ethical or not) once they've given some of their own cash.  They want the game, damn it, and any further means to that end is justified (by their own admission).

    Backers aren't able to fathom not seeing the product release, which is why they'll ignore signs of poor development progress or pivots by the developer studio and continue defending and funding the project.  It's an issue, because the end result is what @Torval alludes to: no accountability.
    SpottyGekkoTorvaltweedledumb99

    image
  • WaanWaan Member UncommonPosts: 87
    Can we somehow split the news between the MMO and BR? I really don't care for the latter.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,253
    edited January 13
    Vrika said:
    Kyleran said:
    Galadourn said:
    I don't see how Apocalypse can replace the actual MMO that people are fretting about; I do see however possible delays due to unforeseen obstacles along the MMO production path.
    Delays are pretty much guaranteed.

    I personally have little interest in AoC: Apocalypse, but... I imagine they're looking for a way to bring in more money. So, I'm fine with it.

    Would people really rather have them selling kingdoms for RL money? Or a bunch of overpowered ships the rest will spend a year grinding for? *looks at the other Kickstarter MMO's out there* :tongue:
    As a business... if the BR takes off and makes cash would you ignore it and turn back to the MMORPG or would you do what Epic did with Fortnite and put the old game on maintenance mode while focusing on the BR cash cow

    These guys said said they had a $30M budget and anything raised from Crowdfunding was just for extras.  So unless they lied, it shouldn’t be a question of selling Kingdoms/Spaceships or a BattleRoyale detour.  If what they said was true they should already have enough money to fund the MMORPG.  Right?  Or am I missing something?

    It's a crowdfunding game... $30M should've already been a red flag. In all likelihood they are suffering the same problems all the others are. Nowhere near enough money to finish the whole thing.

    As for your question, that's entirely possible. I'd hope not, but... it's a realistic outcome.
    I have no money invested in any of the crowdfunding titles, so aside from a disappointment of my tempered expectations... I'm not losing anything either way.

    Regardless, it's beyond our control either way.
    If I recall properly, It was stated that they already had the $30M because Stephen got so rich from his MLM stuff and selling Xango juice and I think even real estate. So this was not to be a true Crowdfunded game but a self backed one with the Crowdfunding just for extras.

    Why do none of the fans question this?  Or am I mistaken?  Pretty sure I remember properly. 

    @jahlon seems to be a “do what you say you would” kind of guy from his vids.  I’d love to see him actually press Stephen on this.  I can dig up the old interviews if it would help.
    As I recall Steven made a qualifier post KSer that he had "access" to $30 million in funding, not that he specifically had $30M in "available" funds nor that he was putting up this entire amount himself. 

    In response I think some folks floated stories around about how his mother was the one who really made big money from the MLM business,  and he was more of just a lieutenant in the organization.

    As always, Steven's stories always slide around the truth,  without anyone really being able to validate his claims and unsubstantiated urban legends cropping up as facts in many cases. 
    I think that Steven said during an interview that he's committed to funding the project with $30M, and then counted on people to misunderstand that.

    Saying that you're committed to doing something doesn't really create any legal obligation because you're allowed to decide that you aren't committed any more.
    Always remember, Steven has proven to be a master wordsmith over the past two years, here's a good example.

    Jahlon linked a MassivelyOP interview asking about the total funding to Steven.

    MassivelyOP:
    "Can you discuss the setup of your funding? How much capital has gone into the game so far, and where did it come from? How much is the whole game expected to cost, all told, and how does it compare to other recent Kickstarted MMOs? (Crowfall has raised $12M, for example.)"

    To which Steven replies,  carefully avoiding how much has been spent so far. While he does confirm he has funded the game to date, the $30M figure is mentioned afterward and he does not say he is providing the full funding, only stating what the budget is to "complete."

    "The project is being funded by myself currently. This is going to be a bigger game, content-wise, than Crowfall, and our budget and funding reflects that. A core viable build that includes all the features discussed about the game will take roughly $30 million to complete."
    tweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,253
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    That's my problem with most crowd funded efforts, CU is a great example.

    They bury backers with communication, being one I get them all. Each one explains how busy, busy, busy they have been, detailing great "accomplishments like the latest new shrubbery,  but never say what you want to know, how much is left to do and when do they expect it to be complete.

    Hey, in the first two years I realize there are lots of great unknowns,  but as we come up on year six for CU and similar for some others, it is not unreasonable for consumers to expect a fairly accurate target release date.

    Unless of course,  they don't really know what the hell they are doing.
    TorvalAzaron_Nightbladetweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,253
    edited January 13
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one.  Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better.  My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.

    What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.

    They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense.  My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for.  They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are.  Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    In all fairness the original delivery estimate was two years, so in April he's coming up on "only" being four years late.

    I knew better six years ago,  but apparently Mark and these other industry "experts" didnt. 

    Or they were lying....you don't suppose....

     :o 

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,588

    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Why do you accept that those are the only choices?  It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm...  Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
    Because that's not how reality works.  Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.  

    The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.

    What would you suggest people do?  Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue?  Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
    No.. I would actually suggest holding people accountable for what they sell which includes roughly the time they sold it for delivery.  Not quite sure why that is such a radical idea.  

    Delays happen?  Sure... build that into your planned ETA.  Give me an ETA of 18 months and then 48 months later you are still in Alpha?   Fuck no!

    By the way that is EXACTLY how reality works outside of this bizzaro crowdfunded game world we have allowed to exist.   Dekay all you want, and I might even cheer your decision as long as you offer the customer the ability to refund.  Don't expect the customer to pay the price for your ineptitude.


    "Holding people accountable"

    Must be nice to live in a world with such vague concepts, I'll just "be successful" when I want more money!

    People backed these games knowing that there was a risk.  You keep saying to hold people accountable but have no idea how to do that, so until you come up with something viable I can't take you seriously.  Reality is much more complicated than "hold them accountable".  Ok....how?  Oh, you can't?  Gee, maybe that's because reality is a lot more complicated than your regurgitated platitudes.
    parrotpholk
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,253
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I have consistently said that is what is wrong with the crowdfunding is they are accountable to no one.  Yes both of those games are late to market and I have less forgiveness towards Jacobs because he knew better.  My point was more that at least I can see what is going on with the development of those games and if I had backed them then I could make an educated decision on if I should jump ship and get a refund or wait it out.

    What do we really know about AoC development on the MMO front? Exactly! Not a thing other than they say it is being worked on.

    They may be without accountability but transparency can buy short term forgiveness if it makes sense.  My thought is all these crowdfunded project managers had zero idea what they were signing up for.  They produced something that sounded great on paper and here we are.  Sure there have been a couple of games made and they were good but also single player.

    Jacobs is only one I say does not get a pass of these examples because he had done it twice before and yet he is about 6  yrs late to the game.
    Hey... Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton have as much if not more experience than MJ (Walton definitely...)
    Guess I could have elaborated more on that point but you are correct.

    My thoughts are that they are attempting something different and much deeper and complex than what Jacobs is doing.  Jacobs should have the whole RvR thing under his belt by now.  And to add to that on its surface CU does not seem to be overly deep and I would even call it shallow.  Nothing that should have taken this long but my guess is they have more technical issues than they do design issues.  That is just a guess as I am not carefully following CU because as I said it seems quiet shallow.
    As a point of order, CU is intentionally lacking or shallow as you put it.

    During the KSer Mark was quite clear CU was not a full MMORPG like DAOC, and it's PVE would be severely lacking.

    Rather the focus would be on delivering large scale (1000 or so) RVR combat on an engine they were building to handle the load. 

    It was based on this "limited" set of requirements I actually believed he might pull off with the money he was asking for combined with his personal funds, all told around $5M or so I think which is why I backed it at an alpha access tier. 

    I never bought in on the two year timeline, thinking 3 years at least but never expecting to be at the 6 yr mark with no firm target end date established.



    tweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,450

    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Why do you accept that those are the only choices?  It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm...  Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
    Because that's not how reality works.  Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.  

    The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.

    What would you suggest people do?  Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue?  Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
    No.. I would actually suggest holding people accountable for what they sell which includes roughly the time they sold it for delivery.  Not quite sure why that is such a radical idea.  

    Delays happen?  Sure... build that into your planned ETA.  Give me an ETA of 18 months and then 48 months later you are still in Alpha?   Fuck no!

    By the way that is EXACTLY how reality works outside of this bizzaro crowdfunded game world we have allowed to exist.   Dekay all you want, and I might even cheer your decision as long as you offer the customer the ability to refund.  Don't expect the customer to pay the price for your ineptitude.


    "Holding people accountable"

    Must be nice to live in a world with such vague concepts, I'll just "be successful" when I want more money!

    People backed these games knowing that there was a risk.  You keep saying to hold people accountable but have no idea how to do that, so until you come up with something viable I can't take you seriously.  Reality is much more complicated than "hold them accountable".  Ok....how?  Oh, you can't?  Gee, maybe that's because reality is a lot more complicated than your regurgitated platitudes.
    What part about the refunds did you not understand?  THAT is accountability.  And saying "no refunds" but not delivering a product is actually grounds for a chargeback.  I do not encourage those but it IS a recourse.   Otherwise, I encourage people to pledge to games that allow refunds.  Getting your money back is how you hold them accountable.

    Pretty simple concept.

    Mark Jacobs does not run sales every month (has he run any?), he allows refunds.  The pain from being late is being felt by HIM.  That doesn't excuse the ridiculous delay at all, but it does mean he has some accountability because I can simply get my cash back when I've had enough of waiting.

    Even if you do not want a refund, you can hold companies accountable by refusing to buy any of the items from their pre-release bullshit stores.  You want more money?  Deliver what you promised.

    Sorry but I don't take ANYONE seriously when they cry "we can't do anything".  We absolutely can.  It's just that some others would rather say "'I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early." as though that was the only choice.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,253
    Torval said:
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I think the accountability comes in when we discuss refund policies.  CU allows refunds.  That, to me... is the ultimate accountability.  Not sure if CF does and pretty sure Ashes doesn’t. 
    Refunds are a huge plus, I agree. I thought CU stopped those and if they remove that option late into testing when things start showing publicly then it wasn't very much more than a PR stunt. These studios have become masters of subterfuge. I'm clean out of trust right now, even for the potentially "good" players. Too many shenanigans industry wide.

    I do believe Steven has the money or access to it. He's implied as much and I think if it came down to legalities he would be found judged to have tried to sell that impression regardless of his wordsmithing. I think he knows that too.

    My problem is that a team can only do so much so diverting resources from the main project to a side project, for whatever reason, is distracting to the main project. Additionally they're not getting project feedback from a demographic that enjoys a completely different style of game mechanic. Finally, this isn't the project I signed up to back and I think it's disingenuous to backers of the project to engage in these distractions. Their entire world wouldn't be where it is now without the backers giving it life. Now, they're getting the cold should while the team goes and has a quick nooner with their new interest. It's shitty of them.

    TL;DR - This really has nothing to do with their ability to fund. I think they have that covered close to well enough. This has to do with project focus, working on and then delivering what was promised.
    You should not still think they have the funding they need to complete the MMORPG.

    In a recent interview about why the BR was being released as a stand alone product Steven confirmed that when the Devs bowed down to backer "demands" to shift into "stress" testing mode earlier (or in addition to) than planned, they incurred additional cost not covered by the initial funding.

    The BR is specifically to recover those costs and if it makes additional profits beyond that goal, all is good.

    I'll have to see where I read this, likely over on another site.


    tweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,588

    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Why do you accept that those are the only choices?  It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm...  Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
    Because that's not how reality works.  Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.  

    The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.

    What would you suggest people do?  Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue?  Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
    No.. I would actually suggest holding people accountable for what they sell which includes roughly the time they sold it for delivery.  Not quite sure why that is such a radical idea.  

    Delays happen?  Sure... build that into your planned ETA.  Give me an ETA of 18 months and then 48 months later you are still in Alpha?   Fuck no!

    By the way that is EXACTLY how reality works outside of this bizzaro crowdfunded game world we have allowed to exist.   Dekay all you want, and I might even cheer your decision as long as you offer the customer the ability to refund.  Don't expect the customer to pay the price for your ineptitude.


    "Holding people accountable"

    Must be nice to live in a world with such vague concepts, I'll just "be successful" when I want more money!

    People backed these games knowing that there was a risk.  You keep saying to hold people accountable but have no idea how to do that, so until you come up with something viable I can't take you seriously.  Reality is much more complicated than "hold them accountable".  Ok....how?  Oh, you can't?  Gee, maybe that's because reality is a lot more complicated than your regurgitated platitudes.
    What part about the refunds did you not understand?  THAT is accountability.  And saying "no refunds" but not delivering a product is actually grounds for a chargeback.  I do not encourage those but it IS a recourse.   Otherwise, I encourage people to pledge to games that allow refunds.  Getting your money back is how you hold them accountable.

    Pretty simple concept.

    Mark Jacobs does not run sales every month (has he run any?), he allows refunds.  The pain from being late is being felt by HIM.  That doesn't excuse the ridiculous delay at all, but it does mean he has some accountability because I can simply get my cash back when I've had enough of waiting.

    Even if you do not want a refund, you can hold companies accountable by refusing to buy any of the items from their pre-release bullshit stores.  You want more money?  Deliver what you promised.

    Sorry but I don't take ANYONE seriously when they cry "we can't do anything".  We absolutely can.  It's just that some others would rather say "'I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early." as though that was the only choice.

    So your idea of holding people accountable is to hope that they have a lax refund policy?  No, that's not you doing anything.  That's the developer doing something.  Still waiting for an action that an individual can take to hold a crowdfunded game accountable to their date after pledging.  
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,450

    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Why do you accept that those are the only choices?  It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm...  Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
    Because that's not how reality works.  Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.  

    The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.

    What would you suggest people do?  Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue?  Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
    No.. I would actually suggest holding people accountable for what they sell which includes roughly the time they sold it for delivery.  Not quite sure why that is such a radical idea.  

    Delays happen?  Sure... build that into your planned ETA.  Give me an ETA of 18 months and then 48 months later you are still in Alpha?   Fuck no!

    By the way that is EXACTLY how reality works outside of this bizzaro crowdfunded game world we have allowed to exist.   Dekay all you want, and I might even cheer your decision as long as you offer the customer the ability to refund.  Don't expect the customer to pay the price for your ineptitude.


    "Holding people accountable"

    Must be nice to live in a world with such vague concepts, I'll just "be successful" when I want more money!

    People backed these games knowing that there was a risk.  You keep saying to hold people accountable but have no idea how to do that, so until you come up with something viable I can't take you seriously.  Reality is much more complicated than "hold them accountable".  Ok....how?  Oh, you can't?  Gee, maybe that's because reality is a lot more complicated than your regurgitated platitudes.
    What part about the refunds did you not understand?  THAT is accountability.  And saying "no refunds" but not delivering a product is actually grounds for a chargeback.  I do not encourage those but it IS a recourse.   Otherwise, I encourage people to pledge to games that allow refunds.  Getting your money back is how you hold them accountable.

    Pretty simple concept.

    Mark Jacobs does not run sales every month (has he run any?), he allows refunds.  The pain from being late is being felt by HIM.  That doesn't excuse the ridiculous delay at all, but it does mean he has some accountability because I can simply get my cash back when I've had enough of waiting.

    Even if you do not want a refund, you can hold companies accountable by refusing to buy any of the items from their pre-release bullshit stores.  You want more money?  Deliver what you promised.

    Sorry but I don't take ANYONE seriously when they cry "we can't do anything".  We absolutely can.  It's just that some others would rather say "'I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early." as though that was the only choice.

    So your idea of holding people accountable is to hope that they have a lax refund policy?  No, that's not you doing anything.  That's the developer doing something.  Still waiting for an action that an individual can take to hold a crowdfunded game accountable to their date after pledging.  
    I think you should re-read that again  ;)

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,588
    edited January 14

    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Why do you accept that those are the only choices?  It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm...  Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
    Because that's not how reality works.  Just because you want something to be the best game ever *and* be released in 1 year from the date it's announced doesn't mean it's going to happen.  

    The only choices are wait longer for a better game or rush them into releasing a steaming pile.

    What would you suggest people do?  Storm their offices on midnight of the day they are overdue?  Have everyone do a chargeback on that day and never see the game come out at all?
    No.. I would actually suggest holding people accountable for what they sell which includes roughly the time they sold it for delivery.  Not quite sure why that is such a radical idea.  

    Delays happen?  Sure... build that into your planned ETA.  Give me an ETA of 18 months and then 48 months later you are still in Alpha?   Fuck no!

    By the way that is EXACTLY how reality works outside of this bizzaro crowdfunded game world we have allowed to exist.   Dekay all you want, and I might even cheer your decision as long as you offer the customer the ability to refund.  Don't expect the customer to pay the price for your ineptitude.


    "Holding people accountable"

    Must be nice to live in a world with such vague concepts, I'll just "be successful" when I want more money!

    People backed these games knowing that there was a risk.  You keep saying to hold people accountable but have no idea how to do that, so until you come up with something viable I can't take you seriously.  Reality is much more complicated than "hold them accountable".  Ok....how?  Oh, you can't?  Gee, maybe that's because reality is a lot more complicated than your regurgitated platitudes.
    What part about the refunds did you not understand?  THAT is accountability.  And saying "no refunds" but not delivering a product is actually grounds for a chargeback.  I do not encourage those but it IS a recourse.   Otherwise, I encourage people to pledge to games that allow refunds.  Getting your money back is how you hold them accountable.

    Pretty simple concept.

    Mark Jacobs does not run sales every month (has he run any?), he allows refunds.  The pain from being late is being felt by HIM.  That doesn't excuse the ridiculous delay at all, but it does mean he has some accountability because I can simply get my cash back when I've had enough of waiting.

    Even if you do not want a refund, you can hold companies accountable by refusing to buy any of the items from their pre-release bullshit stores.  You want more money?  Deliver what you promised.

    Sorry but I don't take ANYONE seriously when they cry "we can't do anything".  We absolutely can.  It's just that some others would rather say "'I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early." as though that was the only choice.

    So your idea of holding people accountable is to hope that they have a lax refund policy?  No, that's not you doing anything.  That's the developer doing something.  Still waiting for an action that an individual can take to hold a crowdfunded game accountable to their date after pledging.  
    I think you should re-read that again  ;)
    If you're referring to chargebacks, there are time limitations on them.  Most games will well exceed that time frame before they miss their date.  Not an actual solution, try again. 

    Edit: You could only back games with explicit refund policies, but that goes back to people knowing what they were doing when they backed.  The people who backed the game are not some poor defenseless bumbling idiot/victim.  PERSONAL accountability is a thing too.
    Slapshot1188
  • AngreeegamerAngreeegamer Member UncommonPosts: 47
    punahou said:
    We have seen zero class diversification

    Foundation for 4 archetypes has been available and playable since 3 months after their Kickstarter. It was tested in the PAX demo's and the Alpha Zero. Here you go, the first showing:
    punahou said:
    zero mmo diversification

    By MMO diversification do you mean with biomes or what exactly? You can watch a rough walk through of their full Alpha zero build here which was a functional level up to 10 MMO:
    punahou said:
    and zero open world dungeon/quest elements.

    Here's one of their three+ open world dungeons: And here's one of their earliest run thoughs of a quest: Maybe before you post a comment next time you can hit that google search engine for a couple minutes first? Literally almost all these videos are available on their youtube page.
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,591
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    That's my problem with most crowd funded efforts, CU is a great example.

    They bury backers with communication, being one I get them all. Each one explains how busy, busy, busy they have been, detailing great "accomplishments like the latest new shrubbery,  but never say what you want to know, how much is left to do and when do they expect it to be complete.

    Hey, in the first two years I realize there are lots of great unknowns,  but as we come up on year six for CU and similar for some others, it is not unreasonable for consumers to expect a fairly accurate target release date.

    Unless of course,  they don't really know what the hell they are doing.
    It's that track record that keeps me from investing in any of them, regardless of how promising some seem. Out of all those many projects, which ones have actually delivered anything worthwhile?

    Shroud of the Avatar is a joke. The Repopulation was still struggling last I checked. And uh... which others actually more or less 'launched'? All the big ones have been stuck in an endless pre-Alpha-something-something state.
    Kyleran

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,450
    Kyleran said:
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    That's my problem with most crowd funded efforts, CU is a great example.

    They bury backers with communication, being one I get them all. Each one explains how busy, busy, busy they have been, detailing great "accomplishments like the latest new shrubbery,  but never say what you want to know, how much is left to do and when do they expect it to be complete.

    Hey, in the first two years I realize there are lots of great unknowns,  but as we come up on year six for CU and similar for some others, it is not unreasonable for consumers to expect a fairly accurate target release date.

    Unless of course,  they don't really know what the hell they are doing.
    It's that track record that keeps me from investing in any of them, regardless of how promising some seem. Out of all those many projects, which ones have actually delivered anything worthwhile?

    Shroud of the Avatar is a joke. The Repopulation was still struggling last I checked. And uh... which others actually more or less 'launched'? All the big ones have been stuck in an endless pre-Alpha-something-something state.
    Albion Online.  Legends of Aria (called early access but no wipe so it’s launched).  The Exiled (Tas Dal or something like that originally) 

    No big hits yet. I’d say the one in development with biggest breakout potential is probably CF.  That doesn’t mean it will be the best but I can see it getting some really wide exposure. 

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 209
    edited January 14
    Torval said:
    Torval said:
    /snip
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I think the accountability comes in when we discuss refund policies.  CU allows refunds.  That, to me... is the ultimate accountability.  Not sure if CF does and pretty sure Ashes doesn’t. 
    Refunds are a huge plus, I agree. I thought CU stopped those and if they remove that option late into testing when things start showing publicly then it wasn't very much more than a PR stunt. These studios have become masters of subterfuge. I'm clean out of trust right now, even for the potentially "good" players. Too many shenanigans industry wide.

    I do believe Steven has the money or access to it. He's implied as much and I think if it came down to legalities he would be found judged to have tried to sell that impression regardless of his wordsmithing. I think he knows that too.

    My problem is that a team can only do so much so diverting resources from the main project to a side project, for whatever reason, is distracting to the main project. Additionally they're not getting project feedback from a demographic that enjoys a completely different style of game mechanic. Finally, this isn't the project I signed up to back and I think it's disingenuous to backers of the project to engage in these distractions. Their entire world wouldn't be where it is now without the backers giving it life. Now, they're getting the cold should while the team goes and has a quick nooner with their new interest. It's shitty of them.

    TL;DR - This really has nothing to do with their ability to fund. I think they have that covered close to well enough. This has to do with project focus, working on and then delivering what was promised.
    Tangent to respond to CU comments.

    Re: CU refunds - pretty sure they said they're going to turn off refunds (with 30 days notice) once they've released gameplay videos, and possibly also when they've allowed limited streaming of the game (i.e. not all tests, not 24/7 etc., but some streaming).

    At that point where refunds turn off, two things have happened, which I think are fair:

    1) anyone who's already backed has had 30 days to consider whether they want to lock in their donation or if they want a refund, and

    2) anyone deciding between no-refund-donating during development, or waiting til release, has gameplay videos from the devs and streams from people outside the studio to show them what they'd be getting

    Re: being out of trust with devs, ya that seems a reasonable call.
    Post edited by tweedledumb99 on
Sign In or Register to comment.