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Ashes of Creation Team Previews Castle Sieges & Announces New Classes Coming Soon - MMORPG.com

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  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Leland, NCMember RarePosts: 4,121
    cochs said:
    This is why game developers have to be so careful about how they do alpha testing.  Just putting it in the context of a battle royale, they should have known players would jump to conclusions.

    Alpha with just a small handful of your core archetypes with a couple of skills each, that's kind of what most games do for early testing.  You need to verify the combat style and flow works well before you move on to fleshing out class design.

    They screwed up their alpha though by not qualifying it.  They presented it as this is what the game will look like merely by omission.  You have to know since players are not developers they are going to jump to conclusions unless educated.  You can't blame players for what you know they will do even if their conclusions are wrong.  That ones on you not them.
    This is not the alpha of the MMO and has zero to do with it.  They are testing a stand alone BR with cash shop attached.

    Not even sure what you are defending here.
    KyleranSlapshot1188Arterius
  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade KingsmouthMember EpicPosts: 4,568
    Galadourn said:
    I don't see how Apocalypse can replace the actual MMO that people are fretting about; I do see however possible delays due to unforeseen obstacles along the MMO production path.
    Delays are pretty much guaranteed.

    I personally have little interest in AoC: Apocalypse, but... I imagine they're looking for a way to bring in more money. So, I'm fine with it.

    Would people really rather have them selling kingdoms for RL money? Or a bunch of overpowered ships the rest will spend a year grinding for? *looks at the other Kickstarter MMO's out there* :tongue:
    As a business... if the BR takes off and makes cash would you ignore it and turn back to the MMORPG or would you do what Epic did with Fortnite and put the old game on maintenance mode while focusing on the BR cash cow

    These guys said said they had a $30M budget and anything raised from Crowdfunding was just for extras.  So unless they lied, it shouldn’t be a question of selling Kingdoms/Spaceships or a BattleRoyale detour.  If what they said was true they should already have enough money to fund the MMORPG.  Right?  Or am I missing something?

    It's a crowdfunding game... $30M should've already been a red flag. In all likelihood they are suffering the same problems all the others are. Nowhere near enough money to finish the whole thing.

    As for your question, that's entirely possible. I'd hope not, but... it's a realistic outcome.
    I have no money invested in any of the crowdfunding titles, so aside from a disappointment of my tempered expectations... I'm not losing anything either way.

    Regardless, it's beyond our control either way.
    supx2

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIMember RarePosts: 9,423
    edited January 14
    Still not fetch quest and scripted bosses? Plenty of antisocial nerd tears though.

    If you don’t have any haters, youre doing something wrong. Keep it up AoC. Their tears are delicious.
    Post edited by bcbully on
    parrotpholkSlapshot1188Kylerantweedledumb99Strizzy12Arterius
  • J_JonesJ_Jones Member CommonPosts: 10
    standard classes, but i think Intrepid can really make them interesting.
  • cochscochs Kirkland, WAMember UncommonPosts: 84
    cochs said:
    This is why game developers have to be so careful about how they do alpha testing.  Just putting it in the context of a battle royale, they should have known players would jump to conclusions.

    Alpha with just a small handful of your core archetypes with a couple of skills each, that's kind of what most games do for early testing.  You need to verify the combat style and flow works well before you move on to fleshing out class design.

    They screwed up their alpha though by not qualifying it.  They presented it as this is what the game will look like merely by omission.  You have to know since players are not developers they are going to jump to conclusions unless educated.  You can't blame players for what you know they will do even if their conclusions are wrong.  That ones on you not them.
    This is not the alpha of the MMO and has zero to do with it.  They are testing a stand alone BR with cash shop attached.

    Not even sure what you are defending here.

    It's exactly what it is they even said it was.   You can put whatever name you want on it and set the context a bit different, but it's testing the core gameplay and what they have of the combat system so far.  It's not like they have a different codebase for this vs the mmo it's all the same for all of the core things that matter.

    Unless you really believe they have decided to drop the mmo, which I don't.
    parrotpholk
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Leland, NCMember RarePosts: 4,121
    cochs said:
    cochs said:
    This is why game developers have to be so careful about how they do alpha testing.  Just putting it in the context of a battle royale, they should have known players would jump to conclusions.

    Alpha with just a small handful of your core archetypes with a couple of skills each, that's kind of what most games do for early testing.  You need to verify the combat style and flow works well before you move on to fleshing out class design.

    They screwed up their alpha though by not qualifying it.  They presented it as this is what the game will look like merely by omission.  You have to know since players are not developers they are going to jump to conclusions unless educated.  You can't blame players for what you know they will do even if their conclusions are wrong.  That ones on you not them.
    This is not the alpha of the MMO and has zero to do with it.  They are testing a stand alone BR with cash shop attached.

    Not even sure what you are defending here.

    It's exactly what it is they even said it was.   You can put whatever name you want on it and set the context a bit different, but it's testing the core gameplay and what they have of the combat system so far.  It's not like they have a different codebase for this vs the mmo it's all the same for all of the core things that matter.

    Unless you really believe they have decided to drop the mmo, which I don't.
    I believe they realized they were completely in over their heads making an MMO as they laid out.  I believe that they may still have something in development but in no way do I believe it will be pulled off or released in any kind of good condition. If they can make money off this then I do not think you will ever hear of this MMO again.  The reasoning for what they are doing is only one which the gaming community would accept as making complete sense.  It is amazing the things gamers will swallow, eat a pile of shit and claim it is a peanut butter cookie.

    The only thing they have proven in the last couple years is that Steven is full of shit.
    Slapshot1188KyleranArteriussausagemix
  • KirtisKirtis KlaipedaMember UncommonPosts: 10
    edited January 13

    cochs said:




    cochs said:

    This is why game developers have to be so careful about how they do alpha testing.  Just putting it in the context of a battle royale, they should have known players would jump to conclusions.

    Alpha with just a small handful of your core archetypes with a couple of skills each, that's kind of what most games do for early testing.  You need to verify the combat style and flow works well before you move on to fleshing out class design.

    They screwed up their alpha though by not qualifying it.  They presented it as this is what the game will look like merely by omission.  You have to know since players are not developers they are going to jump to conclusions unless educated.  You can't blame players for what you know they will do even if their conclusions are wrong.  That ones on you not them.

    This is not the alpha of the MMO and has zero to do with it.  They are testing a stand alone BR with cash shop attached.

    Not even sure what you are defending here.



    It's exactly what it is they even said it was.   You can put whatever name you want on it and set the context a bit different, but it's testing the core gameplay and what they have of the combat system so far.  It's not like they have a different codebase for this vs the mmo it's all the same for all of the core things that matter.

    Unless you really believe they have decided to drop the mmo, which I don't.



    And what "core" would it be that they are testing?

    There are no node mechanics involved in this testing as this this is very blunt PvP bashground without any other goals appart from ... well... PvP bashing.

    This can't even be called as class testing and balancing, as there are no classes in Apocalypse whatsoever - you just grab a weapon and go bashing others with it. Each round you start with the same axes all over and you might find some other weapons or armors in the area, but that's all - no classes, no character development, no skill builds whatsoever.

    So where did you see "Alpha with just a small handful of your core archetypes with a couple of skills each, that's kind of what most games do for early testing."? Did you even took time to login into that crap which you call "testing" of what ever you imagine they might be testing?

    The only thing I see them testing is how much money they might grab from cash shop :-) They are not testing even a single thing of their advertised MMO though.
    Post edited by Kirtis on
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 10,256
    Galadourn said:
    I don't see how Apocalypse can replace the actual MMO that people are fretting about; I do see however possible delays due to unforeseen obstacles along the MMO production path.
    Delays are pretty much guaranteed.

    I personally have little interest in AoC: Apocalypse, but... I imagine they're looking for a way to bring in more money. So, I'm fine with it.

    Would people really rather have them selling kingdoms for RL money? Or a bunch of overpowered ships the rest will spend a year grinding for? *looks at the other Kickstarter MMO's out there* :tongue:
    As a business... if the BR takes off and makes cash would you ignore it and turn back to the MMORPG or would you do what Epic did with Fortnite and put the old game on maintenance mode while focusing on the BR cash cow

    These guys said said they had a $30M budget and anything raised from Crowdfunding was just for extras.  So unless they lied, it shouldn’t be a question of selling Kingdoms/Spaceships or a BattleRoyale detour.  If what they said was true they should already have enough money to fund the MMORPG.  Right?  Or am I missing something?

    It's a crowdfunding game... $30M should've already been a red flag. In all likelihood they are suffering the same problems all the others are. Nowhere near enough money to finish the whole thing.

    As for your question, that's entirely possible. I'd hope not, but... it's a realistic outcome.
    I have no money invested in any of the crowdfunding titles, so aside from a disappointment of my tempered expectations... I'm not losing anything either way.

    Regardless, it's beyond our control either way.
    If I recall properly, It was stated that they already had the $30M because Stephen got so rich from his MLM stuff and selling Xango juice and I think even real estate. So this was not to be a true Crowdfunded game but a self backed one with the Crowdfunding just for extras.

    Why do none of the fans question this?  Or am I mistaken?  Pretty sure I remember properly. 

    @jahlon seems to be a “do what you say you would” kind of guy from his vids.  I’d love to see him actually press Stephen on this.  I can dig up the old interviews if it would help.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 31,783
    Galadourn said:
    I don't see how Apocalypse can replace the actual MMO that people are fretting about; I do see however possible delays due to unforeseen obstacles along the MMO production path.
    Delays are pretty much guaranteed.

    I personally have little interest in AoC: Apocalypse, but... I imagine they're looking for a way to bring in more money. So, I'm fine with it.

    Would people really rather have them selling kingdoms for RL money? Or a bunch of overpowered ships the rest will spend a year grinding for? *looks at the other Kickstarter MMO's out there* :tongue:
    As a business... if the BR takes off and makes cash would you ignore it and turn back to the MMORPG or would you do what Epic did with Fortnite and put the old game on maintenance mode while focusing on the BR cash cow

    These guys said said they had a $30M budget and anything raised from Crowdfunding was just for extras.  So unless they lied, it shouldn’t be a question of selling Kingdoms/Spaceships or a BattleRoyale detour.  If what they said was true they should already have enough money to fund the MMORPG.  Right?  Or am I missing something?

    It's a crowdfunding game... $30M should've already been a red flag. In all likelihood they are suffering the same problems all the others are. Nowhere near enough money to finish the whole thing.

    As for your question, that's entirely possible. I'd hope not, but... it's a realistic outcome.
    I have no money invested in any of the crowdfunding titles, so aside from a disappointment of my tempered expectations... I'm not losing anything either way.

    Regardless, it's beyond our control either way.
    If I recall properly, It was stated that they already had the $30M because Stephen got so rich from his MLM stuff and selling Xango juice and I think even real estate. So this was not to be a true Crowdfunded game but a self backed one with the Crowdfunding just for extras.

    Why do none of the fans question this?  Or am I mistaken?  Pretty sure I remember properly. 

    @jahlon seems to be a “do what you say you would” kind of guy from his vids.  I’d love to see him actually press Stephen on this.  I can dig up the old interviews if it would help.
    As I recall Steven made a qualifier post KSer that he had "access" to $30 million in funding, not that he specifically had $30M in "available" funds nor that he was putting up this entire amount himself. 

    In response I think some folks floated stories around about how his mother was the one who really made big money from the MLM business,  and he was more of just a lieutenant in the organization.

    As always, Steven's stories always slide around the truth,  without anyone really being able to validate his claims and unsubstantiated urban legends cropping up as facts in many cases. 


    "I should run a marathon backwards. So I could see what second place look like" Royce da 5'9"

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 ATM.

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  • AeanderAeander Walker, LAMember LegendaryPosts: 3,399
    edited January 13
    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.
    Post edited by Aeander on
  • VrikaVrika FinlandMember EpicPosts: 5,269
    Kyleran said:
    Galadourn said:
    I don't see how Apocalypse can replace the actual MMO that people are fretting about; I do see however possible delays due to unforeseen obstacles along the MMO production path.
    Delays are pretty much guaranteed.

    I personally have little interest in AoC: Apocalypse, but... I imagine they're looking for a way to bring in more money. So, I'm fine with it.

    Would people really rather have them selling kingdoms for RL money? Or a bunch of overpowered ships the rest will spend a year grinding for? *looks at the other Kickstarter MMO's out there* :tongue:
    As a business... if the BR takes off and makes cash would you ignore it and turn back to the MMORPG or would you do what Epic did with Fortnite and put the old game on maintenance mode while focusing on the BR cash cow

    These guys said said they had a $30M budget and anything raised from Crowdfunding was just for extras.  So unless they lied, it shouldn’t be a question of selling Kingdoms/Spaceships or a BattleRoyale detour.  If what they said was true they should already have enough money to fund the MMORPG.  Right?  Or am I missing something?

    It's a crowdfunding game... $30M should've already been a red flag. In all likelihood they are suffering the same problems all the others are. Nowhere near enough money to finish the whole thing.

    As for your question, that's entirely possible. I'd hope not, but... it's a realistic outcome.
    I have no money invested in any of the crowdfunding titles, so aside from a disappointment of my tempered expectations... I'm not losing anything either way.

    Regardless, it's beyond our control either way.
    If I recall properly, It was stated that they already had the $30M because Stephen got so rich from his MLM stuff and selling Xango juice and I think even real estate. So this was not to be a true Crowdfunded game but a self backed one with the Crowdfunding just for extras.

    Why do none of the fans question this?  Or am I mistaken?  Pretty sure I remember properly. 

    @jahlon seems to be a “do what you say you would” kind of guy from his vids.  I’d love to see him actually press Stephen on this.  I can dig up the old interviews if it would help.
    As I recall Steven made a qualifier post KSer that he had "access" to $30 million in funding, not that he specifically had $30M in "available" funds nor that he was putting up this entire amount himself. 

    In response I think some folks floated stories around about how his mother was the one who really made big money from the MLM business,  and he was more of just a lieutenant in the organization.

    As always, Steven's stories always slide around the truth,  without anyone really being able to validate his claims and unsubstantiated urban legends cropping up as facts in many cases. 
    I think that Steven said during an interview that he's committed to funding the project with $30M, and then counted on people to misunderstand that.

    Saying that you're committed to doing something doesn't really create any legal obligation because you're allowed to decide that you aren't committed any more.
    Kyleran
     
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Leland, NCMember RarePosts: 4,121

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    Arterius
  • AeanderAeander Walker, LAMember LegendaryPosts: 3,399
    edited January 13

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    And because of that, Crowfall is also the only one I've backed. I'm much more interested in AoC's node based PvE than anything Crowfall, Camelot Unchained, or (laughs) Chronicles of Elyria has to offer, but Crowfall has the highest chance of actually delivering what was promised.
    Post edited by Aeander on
    parrotpholkKyleran
  • MiasmaWhisperMiasmaWhisper Member CommonPosts: 1
    Looking fantastic. As a tester and someone very involved with the development process, I can say for sure the progress to Alpha1 phase (mmo testing) is coming along very nicely.
    A few hiccups on the way but its getting there.
    Slapshot1188Kyleran
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Leland, NCMember RarePosts: 4,121
    Looking fantastic. As a tester and someone very involved with the development process, I can say for sure the progress to Alpha1 phase (mmo testing) is coming along very nicely.
    A few hiccups on the way but its getting there.
    Says the credible guy...

    Steven give bonuses for posting on 3rd party sites?
    Slapshot1188KyleranArteriusMiasmaWhisper
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Panama City, FLMember EpicPosts: 2,502
    edited January 13
    Kyleran said:
    Still no evidence of work being done on Node evolution, the one unique feature of which might have set Ashes of "Cremation" apart from others. ;)

    MMORPG releasing by the end of 2019? I think we can set that notion firmly aside and start looking at late 2020 or beyond.

    "Nodes Ashes of Creation is a unique take on the MMO experience. Our world structure is dynamic and built to react to the actions of our players.

    Cities will rise and fall, their populations based on the history of the world as the players create it. Quests will unlock as these populations gather, their needs grow, and secrets are unlocked.

    As the world’s NPC structure is established in real time, players will have the ability to destroy what they’ve created, paving the way for new development, new populations, and real change.

    Political strife and intrigue will play a very real role in the structure of your world. " 

    https://aocwiki.net/Nodes
    Been saying the bolded for a while now.  Ashes (if the mmo ever releases) will be no more "revolutionary" than me deciding to drink my coffee with some creamer instead of black.

    Edit: Words.
    Post edited by Kajidourden on
  • jahlonjahlon Starbucks, OHMember UncommonPosts: 244
    On the money situation, I did press Steven on this.  You'll see a link to my money interview a little bit down.  

    I have been investigating the money since 18 October 2018 when in a meeting with the Content Creators they mentioned they might monetize the Battle Royale product.   Here is what I found:

    From the Kickstarter:  

    "We’ve got private backing that will allow us to produce a core viable product."

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1791529601/ashes-of-creation-new-mmorpg-by-intrepid-studios

    So, what is a "core viable product" and how much will it cost?

    "A core viable build that includes all the features discussed about the game will take roughly $30 million to complete.”

    https://massivelyop.com/2017/05/04/ashes-of-creations-steven-sharif-on-his-business-history-30m-funding-goal-and-pvp/

    Who is paying for it?

    " One the development of a core viable product, absolutely I’m 100% funding. That’s already there. That’s scheduled out. The hiring of additional team members in order to encompass that development time is paid for."

    https://www.paradoxgaming.net/the-steven-answer

    Now, why does it say "we" on the Kickstarter?   

    If you look up who launched the kickstarter it was Intrepid as a company, so of course the company has private funding in the form of their CEO Steven Sharif.

    Now, is there a soundbite or quote that says he has a pile of $28,000,000 just sitting around ready to throw into the company?   

    --- No this soundbite does not exist there is never a direct soundbite of Steven saying that he has that much just sitting around.  However, a cursory look into the situation, the assets that we know he owns (homes, cars, etc) leaves little doubt that he has the amount of disposable income that he claims he does.  

    Remember he's on the record as already putting in $2M and its pretty fair to say what we have seen reflects at LEAST this amount of money.  I mean just look at the offices, the desks, the size of the staff, the booth they use at the trade shows, the gear they bring to the trade shows.  While yes, none of this stuff "really matters" for the development of the MMORPG if you will, it is at the very least proof that some serious money has been dropped into the studio.   

    Soundbite that Steven has already invested $2,000,000:  

    But does that matter?   No, I don't think so.  I think at this point, they are producing enough "stuff" that its pretty clear they have money.  Can I do a monetary breakdown to show they have produced more than $3.2M worth of Kickstarter funding "stuff" plus the $2M seed money from Steven, plus the Summber backer, plus the web page sales.  No, of course not.  I don't have access to the entire inventory of things they've done to say "Yes, this looks like X$M worth of stuff"

    While you may not trust Steven, remember some of the people who work at Intrepid are well known names from the industry.  Guys like Michael Bacon and Jason Crawford could have gone pretty much anywhere, they decided to go to Intrepid.  Margaret Krohn the new Community Marketing Lead left a job at NCSoft to come work for Intrepid. 


    Now, on the topic of the Kickstarter.  In retrospect, if they were fully funded to the level they said they were, they would have been better served spending all of 2017 just developing the game.  Not going to trade shows, not doing a kickstarter nothing.  Showing up at Kickstarter in May of 2018 with Alpha Zero flushed out as a playable demo for people that would have exploded WAY more than $3.2M.  But, the past is the past.

    And on a final note, the entire "MLM" thing people constantly bring up, people have to remember MLMs are common place all over the country, they just take various shapes and sizes, and they are perfectly legal.  I'm not sure why people are caught up on this particular sales concept as being inherently morally wrong.    



    Slapshot1188 
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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 10,256
    @jahlon ; Thanks for that.  My point around the money is that if they really do have $30M in secured funding and that is all they need for the core product and all the extra Kickstarter/customer money is just extra...  then why is there a BR game with a cash shop?

    If they have enough money ($30M + Kickstarter and Store cash) then there should be no need to put up a cash shop BattleRoyale game to raise cash...  right?

    As for MLM... it's often sketchy and when combined with sketchy stuff like Xango Juice... and then taken to a platform ripe for exploitation like Crowdfunded Videogames with no oversite... it merits at least being a bit skeptical IMHO.  So given that background, when a guy says he already has $30M lined up for his game and it's all he needs in order to develop the core game... then the first thing produced is a cash shop BattleRoyale which came out of left field...  yes... I think that brings a lot of questions.

    As for the people hired, I have no problem with that. But please do keep in mind that many are with Intrepid because SOE went belly up and they were in SanDiego.  Not the only reason for sure, but lets be honest, if the studio was in Virginia I do not think they would have many of the same people.  It's not like they left a cushy job with Google.  They came from a company that was going out of business and looking for a home.  Good for them that they found a landing spot though.


    tweedledumb99Kajidourden

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 18,417

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    Slapshot1188SBFordKyleran
    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Panama City, FLMember EpicPosts: 2,502
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Arterius
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 10,256
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I think the accountability comes in when we discuss refund policies.  CU allows refunds.  That, to me... is the ultimate accountability.  Not sure if CF does and pretty sure Ashes doesn’t. 
    tweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 10,256

    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I'd rather a project be 10 years late than launch too early.  There's no shortage of other things I can do in the meantime.
    Why do you accept that those are the only choices?  It’s like saying I’d rather have a finger cut off than my whole arm...  Well yeah... but I hope there’s another option beyond those 2.
    TorvalKylerantweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 18,417
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    I think the accountability comes in when we discuss refund policies.  CU allows refunds.  That, to me... is the ultimate accountability.  Not sure if CF does and pretty sure Ashes doesn’t. 
    Refunds are a huge plus, I agree. I thought CU stopped those and if they remove that option late into testing when things start showing publicly then it wasn't very much more than a PR stunt. These studios have become masters of subterfuge. I'm clean out of trust right now, even for the potentially "good" players. Too many shenanigans industry wide.

    I do believe Steven has the money or access to it. He's implied as much and I think if it came down to legalities he would be found judged to have tried to sell that impression regardless of his wordsmithing. I think he knows that too.

    My problem is that a team can only do so much so diverting resources from the main project to a side project, for whatever reason, is distracting to the main project. Additionally they're not getting project feedback from a demographic that enjoys a completely different style of game mechanic. Finally, this isn't the project I signed up to back and I think it's disingenuous to backers of the project to engage in these distractions. Their entire world wouldn't be where it is now without the backers giving it life. Now, they're getting the cold should while the team goes and has a quick nooner with their new interest. It's shitty of them.

    TL;DR - This really has nothing to do with their ability to fund. I think they have that covered close to well enough. This has to do with project focus, working on and then delivering what was promised.
    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 10,256
    CU still offers refunds per their website.
    Torvaltweedledumb99

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Nashville, TNMember LegendaryPosts: 7,781
    Torval said:

    Aeander said:

    I am increasingly skeptical of this project. I want to believe in the MMO, as it is easily the most interesting of the crowdfunded games to me. Unfortunately, it also comes across as shady and lacking in transparency, unlike Crowfall or Camelot Unchained, and this trendchasing battle royale with a cringeworthy justification only makes it look that much worse.



    Crowfall has been the most transparent with the most progress of these. It is also the most complex as far as I can tell. It may not be someone cup of tea but at least they are open with development even if they are about 2 years behind. Only thing that turns me off would be the world being destroyed and recreated on whatever schedule.
    What good is transparency without accountability? They're years behind schedule and have equally gone off tangent with their own revenue project in the form of a miracle API to sort out Unity's lack of network infrastructure. Camelot Unchained is super transparent and yet, 6 YEARS later the project is nowhere near completion. But hey, they're "transparent" for all the good that's done anyone.
    Accountability here should be coming from backers leaving the project to dry up once it becomes clear they're not making the progress they claimed they would and/or have pivoted parts of their team/work to other projects not enumerated in the crowdfunding campaign.


    But sunk cost fallacy and confirmation bias.  "Software development is hard, so no need to hold them accountable for missed deadlines," is literally a mantra among some on this very site.  Consumers weren't and never were in a position to enter crowdfunding transactions on a level playing field with the studios tempting them with buzzwords and beyond-ambitious timelines.  And now we see why: they want the end product too hard to see the project objectively.
    Torvaltweedledumb99Eldrach

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