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MMORPGs dead? Nonsense! This is the most exciting time for upcoming games that I can remember.

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,035
    edited January 11
    Vesavius said:
    blamo2000 said:
    Is Ashes of Creation a real mmorpg or is it a crafting game with some pvp?  Or a MOBA?  Since I know nothing about it and judging by the comments it has been around for a while I feel safe assuming it isn't a traditional mmorpg.   

    I think this is a wonderful time for people who don't like traditional mmorpgs but love crafting games, games without any or only super lite rpg elements like character development or adult-oriented rpg systems, games made to be watched instead of played, etc.

    Well, a 'real mmorpg' is not definied by having quests... I am sure a game like Pantheon will have quests though. Did no one mnetion that to you? it's a very traditional mmorpg.

    AoC is far more than the questions you are asking. There is no doubt that it is 100% a mmorpg, not a MOBA. It isn't traditional, no, it is shaking it all up, but like I say... Pantheon, and maybe SoL and others, are there for us when we want a more traditional experience.

    TBH, looking at the most anticipated list on the front page, there seems to be something for most tastes. I am suprised that there is nothing there that interests you... Maybe you are just over MMORPGs in general?
    You have missed the memo, right now Ashes is preparing to launch a beta version of their stand alone BR game, tomorrow in fact.

    It even comes with a fully functional cash shop, like all good BRs do.

    Now sure, they claim to be working full speed on the MMORPG, but take a look at how Epic basically walked away from their PVE version when their Fortnite BR blew up into a sensation. 

    These be perilous days indeed.

    ;)
    VinterkrigThupli

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,317
    Vesavius said:
    I am just done with the same game with a different skin repeat. Over and over again. The mmorpg never evolved. It just rehashed the same mechanics and gameplay over and over again.  I have been there done that for over 20 years with no real change it has just grown stale for me.


    See... What we have is one guy earlier in the thread saying that there are no trad mmorpgs upcoming, which there are, and you saying that it's the same old thing over again, which it isn't.

    There are plenty of fresh ideas on the table in these upcoming games.

    But, it sounds like you are just done with the genre in general, so nothing I am gonna say will chnage that.
    Both are partially true to an extent.  Most of the upcoming MMO are not traditional in the WoW or LOTRO sense of the idea.  But all of the ideas that are coming have been done before and there is a reason people keep failing at them.  A lot of the upcoming MMO are promising to be everything to everyone or they are nostalgia vehicles blasting us back to the past.  First you cannot be all things to everyone, look at AA as an example.  And as far as blasting back to 1999 or 2004, all of those games are for a small audience at best due to time commitments most of us cannot give anymore.

    Dual Universe is only one I am on board with currently that is an upcoming MMO.  I still play a couple as well but the genre is in a bad place currently.  Take out the top 3 MMO and a very small percentage of people even play these anymore in the west anyway.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,035
    See I take a different stance.
     I am not jaded or let down by crowdfunding or whatever. I am just done with the same game with a different skin repeat. Over and over again. The mmorpg never evolved. It just rehashed the same mechanics and gameplay over and over again.  I have been there done that for over 20 years with no real change it has just grown stale for me. There are just other hybrid model games that have come along and taken over and pushed the mmorpg aside. 
    Millions of prior mmorpg players have left the genre behind as the genre could not keep up and continue to change. 
    Many things in life are cyclical so perhaps the mmorpg will reinvent itself at some point but I hardly think it will resemble what many of us from the golden age would recognize. 
    What we once knew is gone.  
    I am confused.  Here you claim the problem with the genre is it has failed to evolve.

    Yet in this same forum people will claim the genre's problems are because it changed far too much from the early designs.

    So which is it?

    Or maybe its "we" (the playerbase)  who has changed?

    Weird.
    VinterkrigAlBQuirkyThupli

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ArteriusArterius Member RarePosts: 531
    Vesavius said:
    I am just done with the same game with a different skin repeat. Over and over again. The mmorpg never evolved. It just rehashed the same mechanics and gameplay over and over again.  I have been there done that for over 20 years with no real change it has just grown stale for me.


    See... What we have is one guy earlier in the thread saying that there are no trad mmorpgs upcoming, which there are, and you saying that it's the same old thing over again, which it isn't.

    There are plenty of fresh ideas on the table in these upcoming games.

    But, it sounds like you are just done with the genre in general, so nothing I am gonna say will chnage that.
    Both are partially true to an extent.  Most of the upcoming MMO are not traditional in the WoW or LOTRO sense of the idea.  But all of the ideas that are coming have been done before and there is a reason people keep failing at them.  A lot of the upcoming MMO are promising to be everything to everyone or they are nostalgia vehicles blasting us back to the past.  First you cannot be all things to everyone, look at AA as an example.  And as far as blasting back to 1999 or 2004, all of those games are for a small audience at best due to time commitments most of us cannot give anymore.

    Dual Universe is only one I am on board with currently that is an upcoming MMO.  I still play a couple as well but the genre is in a bad place currently.  Take out the top 3 MMO and a very small percentage of people even play these anymore in the west anyway.
    Dual universe confuses me. What even is that game?
  • parrotpholkparrotpholk Member EpicPosts: 4,317
    Arterius said:
    Vesavius said:
    I am just done with the same game with a different skin repeat. Over and over again. The mmorpg never evolved. It just rehashed the same mechanics and gameplay over and over again.  I have been there done that for over 20 years with no real change it has just grown stale for me.


    See... What we have is one guy earlier in the thread saying that there are no trad mmorpgs upcoming, which there are, and you saying that it's the same old thing over again, which it isn't.

    There are plenty of fresh ideas on the table in these upcoming games.

    But, it sounds like you are just done with the genre in general, so nothing I am gonna say will chnage that.
    Both are partially true to an extent.  Most of the upcoming MMO are not traditional in the WoW or LOTRO sense of the idea.  But all of the ideas that are coming have been done before and there is a reason people keep failing at them.  A lot of the upcoming MMO are promising to be everything to everyone or they are nostalgia vehicles blasting us back to the past.  First you cannot be all things to everyone, look at AA as an example.  And as far as blasting back to 1999 or 2004, all of those games are for a small audience at best due to time commitments most of us cannot give anymore.

    Dual Universe is only one I am on board with currently that is an upcoming MMO.  I still play a couple as well but the genre is in a bad place currently.  Take out the top 3 MMO and a very small percentage of people even play these anymore in the west anyway.
    Dual universe confuses me. What even is that game?
    Will let you know after this next go around of alpha invites which I will be in on.

    It is EVE with planets and some Minecraft built in.  That is the simplest way I can say it.
    Thupli
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,883
    Kyleran said:
    I am confused.  Here you claim the problem with the genre is it has failed to evolve.

    Yet in this same forum people will claim the genre's problems are because it changed far too much from the early designs.

    So which is it?

    Weird.

    Pretty much what I said to Blueturtle, yeah.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,883
    Kyleran said:
    You have missed the memo, right now Ashes is preparing to launch a beta version of their stand alone BR game, tomorrow in fact.


    nah, no memo missed. I am already discussing this in that relevant thread though, so I'm not gonna get into it here as well.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,327
    Kyleran said:
    See I take a different stance.
     I am not jaded or let down by crowdfunding or whatever. I am just done with the same game with a different skin repeat. Over and over again. The mmorpg never evolved. It just rehashed the same mechanics and gameplay over and over again.  I have been there done that for over 20 years with no real change it has just grown stale for me. There are just other hybrid model games that have come along and taken over and pushed the mmorpg aside. 
    Millions of prior mmorpg players have left the genre behind as the genre could not keep up and continue to change. 
    Many things in life are cyclical so perhaps the mmorpg will reinvent itself at some point but I hardly think it will resemble what many of us from the golden age would recognize. 
    What we once knew is gone.  
    I am confused.  Here you claim the problem with the genre is it has failed to evolve.

    Yet in this same forum people will claim the genre's problems are because it changed far too much from the early designs.

    So which is it?

    Or maybe its "we" (the playerbase)  who has changed?

    Weird.
    In my opinion the genre moved to smaller and smaller bubbles which caused the start of the fall
     
    "The world is too big!"  -- fast travel
    "Tired if groups camping mobs and dungeons!"  -- Instances 
    "It is too hard to find a group!"  -- Group finders
    "I don't know where to go and what to do!"  -- Funnel Zones

    and on and on and on
    ------------------------------------//

    The vocal have been asking for some time now to go back to the beginning. The way mmorpgs used to be. Hell, back to when the genre was filled with actual mmorpgs. 

    So instead of the progression and evolution of a genre it spun completely out of control and focus. Now it is faced with having to go back to square one and reboot what they have already done so they can progress to what they should have been. 



    The mmorpg genre needed a couple of titles to come out that shattered what people's idea of what an online virtual world could be and what it could offer.

    The money that would have been required to make that happen have moved on to genres with a better ROI. 


    Perhaps in the future years we will see a couple of revolutionary titles that will bring a focus to what a virtual world can be. 
    Until then? Rehash and Reboot. 

     


    KyleranAlBQuirkyMrMelGibson

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,491
    parrotpholkKyleranAlBQuirkyMrMelGibsonThupli
    Raging Demons for all flowchart "Kens". This is a metaphor.
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,883
    edited January 11


    I apologise for not being a cynical negative burnt out wreck. I mean, I could be, I have been in mmorpgs since '99 and played many, but I am not. For that, i apologise.
    VinterkrigThupli
  • VinterkrigVinterkrig Member UncommonPosts: 1,769
    edited January 11
    Vesavius said:
    Now, I admit... I toook some time away from mainstream MMORPGs because the whole thing was boring to me, preferring to play classic Everquest, but I have to say... The future looks so bright to me. So many choices from Ashes of Creation to Hytale to watch grow and maybe eventually play.

    I think I am back!

    Why is the general vibe in the genre so deflated and negative? I don't get it.
    Vesavius said:


    I apologise for not being a cynical negative burnt out wreck. I mean, I could be, I have been in mmorpgs since '99 and played many, but I am not. For that, i apologise.



    Enjoy the long boring show of games that disappoint at 5 years of waiting.  You'll be just like us soon enough.


    CryomatrixcraftseekerKyleranArteriusMrMelGibson
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,883
    Vesavius said:
    Now, I admit... I toook some time away from mainstream MMORPGs because the whole thing was boring to me, preferring to play classic Everquest, but I have to say... The future looks so bright to me. So many choices from Ashes of Creation to Hytale to watch grow and maybe eventually play.

    I think I am back!

    Why is the general vibe in the genre so deflated and negative? I don't get it.

    Enjoy the long boring show of games that disappoint at 5 years of waiting. 
    lol, it's a minor sideshow for me, nothing more. I am back in DaoC tommorow on a new server, so I have that to look forward to, and Kunark will drop sometime in the future on my EQ server. I'm not bored :)
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member EpicPosts: 3,187
    Vesavius said:
    Vesavius said:
    Now, I admit... I toook some time away from mainstream MMORPGs because the whole thing was boring to me, preferring to play classic Everquest, but I have to say... The future looks so bright to me. So many choices from Ashes of Creation to Hytale to watch grow and maybe eventually play.

    I think I am back!

    Why is the general vibe in the genre so deflated and negative? I don't get it.

    Enjoy the long boring show of games that disappoint at 5 years of waiting. 
    lol, it's a minor sideshow for me, nothing more. I am back in DaoC tommorow on a new server, so I have that to look forward to, and Kunark will drop sometime in the future on my EQ server. I'm not bored :)
    And those microcosms are fine for what they are. The up coming MMORPGs that don't need a gigantic player base to survive should do just fine. However the people that keep preaching against all logic that any of these games will cause a new renascence in MMORPG gaming and bring in millions of new, or even old time, gamers, I just can't take seriously.



    KyleranVinterkrigAlBQuirkyMrMelGibson


    “I was, in days gone by, a believer. But, alas, I came to this beleaguered land and the God in me just … evaporated. Let us change our toast, then, to the God that has forgotten us.”

  • WizardryWizardry Member EpicPosts: 15,584
    I simply chalk it down to lack of information,knowledge to realize these have all been nothing more than marketing promises and will continue to be so.
    I assume being away for a bit that the OP has not noticed that seems like every game now is Crowd funded "crappy way to make a well organized mmorpg" as well delivered as unfinished broken,bugged early access games,so NOTHING looks bright for the future at all,well unless you want bugged unfinuished games?
    MOST of the time the letters RPG are abused,ARPG's use those letters are NOTHING like a rpg should be.

    What we have been receiving is a lot of Indie looking budget games,sub par barely 5/10 in most cases.
    MisterZebubAlBQuirky

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,883
    the people that keep preaching against all logic that any of these games will cause a new renascence in MMORPG gaming and bring in millions of new, or even old time, gamers, I just can't take seriously.


    Yeah, i wouldn't say that for sure. All I am saying is that it looks very exciting to me. MMORPGs are too deeply out of fashion to do anything more than be niche. This won't change for a long time, maybe never. But, tbh, that's ok.
    MisterZebubAlBQuirky
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,883
    Wizardry said:
    well unless you want bugged unfinuished games?


    That's how it always pretty much always has been

    I am just more accepting of bugs and imperfection. I don't have unattainable standards. Having unattainable standards is a sure way to grind yourself into a burnt out cynical wreck, in my experience.
    KyleranVinterkrigThupli
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member EpicPosts: 3,187
    Vesavius said:
    the people that keep preaching against all logic that any of these games will cause a new renascence in MMORPG gaming and bring in millions of new, or even old time, gamers, I just can't take seriously.


    Yeah, i wouldn't say that for sure. All I am saying is that it looks very exciting to me. MMORPGs are too deeply out of fashion to do anything more than be niche. This won't change for a long time, maybe never. But, tbh, that's ok.
    And if you stop and think about it, the quality of MMORPGs might benefit quite a bit from this scenario. No more trying to be all things to all gamers.
    VesaviusKyleranAlBQuirky


    “I was, in days gone by, a believer. But, alas, I came to this beleaguered land and the God in me just … evaporated. Let us change our toast, then, to the God that has forgotten us.”

  • PalebanePalebane Member UncommonPosts: 3,451
    Many of the better or more popular games have new content coming out soon, so that is always a good time to jump back in, imo.
    VesaviusKyleranMrMelGibson

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 938
    Vesavius said:
    I am just done with the same game with a different skin repeat. Over and over again. The mmorpg never evolved. It just rehashed the same mechanics and gameplay over and over again.  I have been there done that for over 20 years with no real change it has just grown stale for me.


    See... What we have is one guy earlier in the thread saying that there are no trad mmorpgs upcoming, which there are, and you saying that it's the same old thing over again, which it isn't.

    There are plenty of fresh ideas on the table in these upcoming games.

    But, it sounds like you are just done with the genre in general, so nothing I am gonna say will chnage that.
    What are these new innovations you are talking about? Half of the games people in this thread are looking forward too are going back to old game designs. There is a difference between innovation and gimmicks. 
    craftseekerAlBQuirky
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 12,063
    My feelings on the matter have much more to do with my mood than with any gaming reality. I want some of what you're taking, OP :)
    KyleranAlBQuirky
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 18,602
    Kyleran said:
    See I take a different stance.
     I am not jaded or let down by crowdfunding or whatever. I am just done with the same game with a different skin repeat. Over and over again. The mmorpg never evolved. It just rehashed the same mechanics and gameplay over and over again.  I have been there done that for over 20 years with no real change it has just grown stale for me. There are just other hybrid model games that have come along and taken over and pushed the mmorpg aside. 
    Millions of prior mmorpg players have left the genre behind as the genre could not keep up and continue to change. 
    Many things in life are cyclical so perhaps the mmorpg will reinvent itself at some point but I hardly think it will resemble what many of us from the golden age would recognize. 
    What we once knew is gone.  
    I am confused.  Here you claim the problem with the genre is it has failed to evolve.

    Yet in this same forum people will claim the genre's problems are because it changed far too much from the early designs.

    So which is it?

    Or maybe its "we" (the playerbase)  who has changed?

    Weird.
    Monetization has evolved, as you've pointed out, while the gameplay loop hasn't. At all. We know how it all works from classes, to progression measurement, economy, trade, crafting, narrative, and so on.

    MMOs have become like Minions. They all look cute, have their own charm and personality, but ultimately the same underneath that clever marketing outfit.
    MadFrenchieblueturtle13MisterZebubAlBQuirkyMrMelGibson
    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  • blamo2000blamo2000 Member UncommonPosts: 631
    I dislike the "evolving" argument.  Because things always "evolve" in a direction exactly away from what I want or enjoy.  I like A, B, and C elements of traditional mmorpgs.  I would love them to evolve into A^2, B^2, and C^2, but what happened is elements I liked as a secondary or tertiary supplement when included with A, B, and C (elements D, E, and F) all broke off into their own genres.  And they didn't even bother with A, B, or C, or included a little of A, like .00001*A.  

    Again, that is great for people that enjoy just D or E or F.  But I don't want A, B, or C on their own.  I also don't want just A, B, and C.  I want it all - but better, more complex, more options.

    What I see happening to the mmorpg is like the opposite of education.  I started early in mmorpgs (UO, EQ, AC, then AO), and each new one gave me more of what I liked - until it started going in reverse.  Most players of WoW seemed to be ecstatic when they removed character development and all meaningful player choices.  That part of the game they were not interested in - it was an annoyance, something that didn't matter because you just copied whatever the raider putting up the best numbers did and it made the arena harder to balance.  So, remove that, then this, then this other thing that confused and was a barrier to nine year old potential players.  

    That's great for people that don't care.  But it is clearly not "evolving."  Its devolving.  Its regression.  Its going from graduate school to grade school.  Evolving in gaming terms means making games to including a wider and younger audience, and pandering to the lowest common denominator.  Its like starting off reading Tolstoy and Thoreau and then you "evolve" into reading Harry Potter and the Werewolf/Vampire lover lady books.  Its a 100% definite regression.  

    And I'm not saying its bad.  Liking Harry Potter and the Werewolf/Vampire team lover books and movies isn't bad.  They are super popular because people love them.  But it just isn't interesting if you used to have and love Tolstoy and Thoreau and you want more shit like that.  And obviously comparing old WoW to Thoreau is ridiculous, but not if the scale is now what we are getting for mmos.  Its a pretty solid analogy.  
    craftseekerAlBQuirkyMrMelGibson
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 7,874
    MMORPGs never tried to evolve towards its unique strengths, and we see the result: they generally do a lot of things a little bit worse than those other games that do a little bit less.

    That was cool before we got things like survival builders by the dozen; now, there's so many options for the crafting fanatic, why go with the relatively shallow versions in an MMORPG?  You can't even build structures in most of them.


    If you want large multiplayer battles, games like Battlefield and Fortnite's are creeping onto MMORPG level territory.  Yet, instead of trying to separate itself, MMORPG devs decided arena Capture the Flag and Control Point mechanics from FPSs were THE way to go, along with culling a lot of skills to reduce it down and focus more on fast-paced action.  Now, why would you play an MMORPG arena battle when you can face off against dozens of others in Fortnite or Battlefield, or even For Honor of you want that medieval feel?  They all do action combat better simply because they have honed themselves towards the strength: fast-paced action with responsive player controls.  They were never going for massively multiplayer like a real MMORPG, so they didn't develop for it.


    MMORPGs have tried to develop for every player but the ones who want what the genre brings that no other can: multiplayer interaction on a massive scale, usually with a virtual world and sides to gather into and to work together and/or face off against other groups.  But they can't beat other genres at their own games, and we see how irrelevant the genre has become because of it.


    PalebanecraftseekerAlBQuirkyMrMelGibsonThupli

    image
  • LuidenLuiden Member UncommonPosts: 234
    Sorry, it's never been worse.  The MMORPG has been dead for quite some time now and I don't see anything really on the horizon that is going to break that.  When they started treating their customers as payers and not players is where it all went downhill.

    If you want to do a deeper dive into why MMORPGs are so bad just look at the developers who build them.  To be blunt, today's generation does not have the skill set nor discipline to build one of these and actually ship it.. in fact the entire industry is plagued not releasing product.  I see it every day in the development world I'm in.. screens/dialogs that would have been built in 2 weeks 15 years ago now take a dev team 2 months to build.. chew on that one.

    I think the reality is that there are 2 things that have to change..

    1.  The business model where they spend massive amount of resources on figuring out how to rape players for every penny they can.  This has to change, every game spends so much time building cash shops (digital Amazons) to sell shit.  I don't think everything gets the amount of effort it takes to build those.

    2.  Time.. it's going to be a few more years before the millennials age out of game development and a new generation focus on actually wanting to work comes in.  Ya, I know that's going to piss a lot of people off and they will claim or it's just a stereotype.. whatever, I live in this and I've never seen a more lazy generation.. ever.  That type of thinking cannot build a complex application like a MMORPG.. they can quickly throw up a website that looks bad ass.. but real development, large scale enterprise development that is needed to support these types of games is not achievable to this generation and trust me, that is the real reason why these games are taking so long to develop, and in the end fail to deliver. 
    craftseekerAlBQuirkyMrMelGibson
  • VesaviusVesavius Member RarePosts: 7,883
    Iselin said:
    My feelings on the matter have much more to do with my mood than with any gaming reality. I want some of what you're taking, OP :)

    My view on the matter has to do with having a fresh perspective gained from an extended break and not wallowing in a negative mindset. That's all :)
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