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Big News: Unity preventing SpatialOS from working on their platform

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    Amazon Web Services supposed to be in relation to this how?

    ...unity licencing.
    Unity does not prevent that, AWS is a supported platform. The only immediate issue is that AWS has not kept in sync with Unity's .NET updates. 
    The licensing has to do with distribution. It was an issue at the time. That was the crux of the dispute between Spatial and Unity which they worked out. Software licensing hangups are 99% of the time around distribution rights.
    Again, Unity does not prevent that with AWS as a Unity Supported Platform, the issue with distribution comes up around how Spatial was violating that part of their terms. I already gave links regarding this.\

    Amazing how something thought resolved can crop up again because of a random bot trying to sell junk.
    When this was an issue it was a sticking. Like I said it's been clarified and resolved. Just having AWS as a partner platform doesn't mean anything if the licensee doesn't have rights to distribute the pieces even if the distribution platform is greenlit. This issue is old and has been sorted out more or less.
    Being a supported platform was part of the license terms. License doesn't have rights to resell something they did not produce/own, and that was a problem for Spatial, but yet again is not a problem with AWS.
    Gdemami
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,794
    Limnic said:
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    Amazon Web Services supposed to be in relation to this how?

    ...unity licencing.
    Unity does not prevent that, AWS is a supported platform. The only immediate issue is that AWS has not kept in sync with Unity's .NET updates. 
    The licensing has to do with distribution. It was an issue at the time. That was the crux of the dispute between Spatial and Unity which they worked out. Software licensing hangups are 99% of the time around distribution rights.
    Again, Unity does not prevent that with AWS as a Unity Supported Platform, the issue with distribution comes up around how Spatial was violating that part of their terms. I already gave links regarding this.\

    Amazing how something thought resolved can crop up again because of a random bot trying to sell junk.
    When this was an issue it was a sticking. Like I said it's been clarified and resolved. Just having AWS as a partner platform doesn't mean anything if the licensee doesn't have rights to distribute the pieces even if the distribution platform is greenlit. This issue is old and has been sorted out more or less.
    Being a supported platform was part of the license terms. License doesn't have rights to resell something they did not produce/own, and that was a problem for Spatial, but yet again is not a problem with AWS.
    You don't work with software licenses and redistribution do you because what you said makes no sense and doesn't mean anything. It's not even untrue, it's just nonsensical.
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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    Amazon Web Services supposed to be in relation to this how?

    ...unity licencing.
    Unity does not prevent that, AWS is a supported platform. The only immediate issue is that AWS has not kept in sync with Unity's .NET updates. 
    The licensing has to do with distribution. It was an issue at the time. That was the crux of the dispute between Spatial and Unity which they worked out. Software licensing hangups are 99% of the time around distribution rights.
    Again, Unity does not prevent that with AWS as a Unity Supported Platform, the issue with distribution comes up around how Spatial was violating that part of their terms. I already gave links regarding this.\

    Amazing how something thought resolved can crop up again because of a random bot trying to sell junk.
    When this was an issue it was a sticking. Like I said it's been clarified and resolved. Just having AWS as a partner platform doesn't mean anything if the licensee doesn't have rights to distribute the pieces even if the distribution platform is greenlit. This issue is old and has been sorted out more or less.
    Being a supported platform was part of the license terms. License doesn't have rights to resell something they did not produce/own, and that was a problem for Spatial, but yet again is not a problem with AWS.
    You don't work with software licenses and redistribution do you because what you said makes no sense and doesn't mean anything. It's not even untrue, it's just nonsensical.
    Seems more so you are unfamiliar with the situation you are arguing about.

    Spatial breached terms of the original eula by repackaging parts of Unity's network layer in it's product. They did not have a legal license to resell Unity or any of Unity's assets, and were in breach of terms for doing so.

    This extended to them losing Unity Supported Platform status, and thus also falling out of Unity's amended terms for a third party platform. Unity has since stepped back and allowed projects to use any platform regardless of supported platform status, but that didn't address the other side of the issue.

    Which, if you dont understand the relationship between license to resell a product, and reselling assets without such, that speaks to your unfamiliarity with the subject.
    Gdemami
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,794
    Limnic said:
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    Amazon Web Services supposed to be in relation to this how?

    ...unity licencing.
    Unity does not prevent that, AWS is a supported platform. The only immediate issue is that AWS has not kept in sync with Unity's .NET updates. 
    The licensing has to do with distribution. It was an issue at the time. That was the crux of the dispute between Spatial and Unity which they worked out. Software licensing hangups are 99% of the time around distribution rights.
    Again, Unity does not prevent that with AWS as a Unity Supported Platform, the issue with distribution comes up around how Spatial was violating that part of their terms. I already gave links regarding this.\

    Amazing how something thought resolved can crop up again because of a random bot trying to sell junk.
    When this was an issue it was a sticking. Like I said it's been clarified and resolved. Just having AWS as a partner platform doesn't mean anything if the licensee doesn't have rights to distribute the pieces even if the distribution platform is greenlit. This issue is old and has been sorted out more or less.
    Being a supported platform was part of the license terms. License doesn't have rights to resell something they did not produce/own, and that was a problem for Spatial, but yet again is not a problem with AWS.
    You don't work with software licenses and redistribution do you because what you said makes no sense and doesn't mean anything. It's not even untrue, it's just nonsensical.
    Seems more so you are unfamiliar with the situation you are arguing about.

    Spatial breached terms of the original eula by repackaging parts of Unity's network layer in it's product. They did not have a legal license to resell Unity or any of Unity's assets, and were in breach of terms for doing so.

    This extended to them losing Unity Supported Platform status, and thus also falling out of Unity's amended terms for a third party platform. Unity has since stepped back and allowed projects to use any platform regardless of supported platform status, but that didn't address the other side of the issue.

    Which, if you dont understand the relationship between license to resell a product, and reselling assets without such, that speaks to your unfamiliarity with the subject.
    So you don't know anything about licensing or deal with it. Got it. Thanks for clarifying.
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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited July 23
    Really, in what world do you work where selling someone else's product for profit without legal permission is ok?

    By all means, I'm waiting for your answer, because It will have to be gloriously insane for you to try and justify the idea that resellers are not legally bound through license or contract and that anyone can just package up Unity in part or in whole and sell it, when the reality is licenses and permits are industry standard and only approved vendors can resell Unity as a product or asset.

    Putting code that was produced by Unity and is a part of the unity engine into your own product and selling it, without the proper license from Unity to do so, is illegal and a breach of their EULA. 

    If you don't know the subject, don't attack someone else regarding it.
    Post edited by Limnic on
    KyleranGdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,377
    Limnic said:
    Really, in what world do you work where selling someone else's product for profit without legal permission is ok?
    Perhaps the game gold selling trade? 

    ;)
    Limnic

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,794
    edited July 24
    Limnic said:
    Really, in what world do you work where selling someone else's product for profit without legal permission is ok?

    By all means, I'm waiting for your answer, because It will have to be gloriously insane for you to try and justify the idea that resellers are not legally bound through license or contract and that anyone can just package up Unity in part or in whole and sell it, when the reality is licenses and permits are industry standard and only approved vendors can resell Unity as a product or asset.

    Putting code that was produced by Unity and is a part of the unity engine into your own product and selling it, without the proper license from Unity to do so, is illegal and a breach of their EULA. 

    If you don't know the subject, don't attack someone else regarding it.
    Now I know why Iselin ignores you. You play word games and rephrase the same meaningless crap over and over again. I'm done with you. SEANMCAD is that you? :lol:

    Red Herrings are really annoying because they're a passive aggressive attack on the other person trying to make them look stupid. It's a rude way to try and prove a point.
    Semantics or Equivocation (also, Splitting Hairs, Playing With Words, or Using Legalisms)
    Using the inherent ambiguity of language to distract from the actual ideas or issues, or deliberately rephrasing the opposing argument incorrectly, and then addressing that rephrasing. 
    https://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Logic and Analysis/most_common_logical_fallacies.htm

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  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited July 24
    Torval said:
    Limnic said:
    Really, in what world do you work where selling someone else's product for profit without legal permission is ok?

    By all means, I'm waiting for your answer, because It will have to be gloriously insane for you to try and justify the idea that resellers are not legally bound through license or contract and that anyone can just package up Unity in part or in whole and sell it, when the reality is licenses and permits are industry standard and only approved vendors can resell Unity as a product or asset.

    Putting code that was produced by Unity and is a part of the unity engine into your own product and selling it, without the proper license from Unity to do so, is illegal and a breach of their EULA. 

    If you don't know the subject, don't attack someone else regarding it.
    Now...
    Feel free to answer the question instead of defining the fallacy you are committing. You are the one to say licenses do not relate to distribution rights for a product even though for Unity it's in their End User License Agreement for licensing and use of their product.

    It's ironic you would use the evocation of a red herring as a red herring. Seeing that, again, you were the one that evoked this semantics in your response to my comment, singling out a topic from it that didn't even address the main point made by it. 

    So good on you for showing how you committed multiple fallacies, bad show though in you trying to project your errors.

    You didn't even wait until we were off this page before you tried lying about this.

    Should we go over it since it's right above these comments? Let's see, first you tried to say this;

    "Just having AWS as a partner platform doesn't mean anything if the licensee doesn't have rights to distribute the pieces even if the distribution platform is greenlit."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/478624/big-news-unity-preventing-spatialos-from-working-on-their-platform/p2#L0jeuHqEyO8Xs7bD.99

    Which failed to acknowledge the point made by me prior;

    "That was the biggest issue, Spatial had been repackaging a component of the Unity engine in their product, which is where they breached terms of service and lost their status as a supported partner."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/478624/big-news-unity-preventing-spatialos-from-working-on-their-platform/p2#L0jeuHqEyO8Xs7bD.99

    AWS does not distribute any pieces of Unity's engine for it's platform solutions, Spatial did, which again sets them apart and was the reason Spatial lost it's license, because it was in breach of the End User License Agreement.

    And what did you say to that? You attacked the notion of the licensing and redistribution rights;

    "You don't work with software licenses and redistribution do you because what you said makes no sense and doesn't mean anything. It's not even untrue, it's just nonsensical."
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/478624/big-news-unity-preventing-spatialos-from-working-on-their-platform/p2#L0jeuHqEyO8Xs7bD.99

    Which, what other way is there to take it at that point? You saying Unity's EULA for their license not allowing redistribution/resale of components of their product, is "nonsensical" is just that, you saying that resale licensing is "not even untrue, it's just nonsensical".

    Yet that is the legal standard.

    And here you are now, having been the one to push the conversation onto that tangent, now calling it's evocation as a red herring. Maybe next time you shouldn't make such a nonsensical post then.
    Gdemami
  • ArteriusArterius Member EpicPosts: 2,059
    Evidently Fractured in fine just in case someone was curious. According to them after the first scare in January they moved to an independent client which is why the dates of the Alphas were pushed back. 
    Limnic
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Arterius said:
    Evidently Fractured in fine just in case someone was curious. According to them after the first scare in January they moved to an independent client which is why the dates of the Alphas were pushed back. 
    Good to know the project is still rolling along.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,742
    Limnic said:
    Seems more so you are unfamiliar with the situation you are arguing about.

    Spatial breached terms of the original eula by repackaging parts of Unity's network layer in it's product. They did not have a legal license to resell Unity or any of Unity's assets, and were in breach of terms for doing so.

    This extended to them losing Unity Supported Platform status, and thus also falling out of Unity's amended terms for a third party platform. Unity has since stepped back and allowed projects to use any platform regardless of supported platform status, but that didn't address the other side of the issue.

    Which, if you dont understand the relationship between license to resell a product, and reselling assets without such, that speaks to your unfamiliarity with the subject.
    ...this is your masterpiece.
    alkarionlog
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited July 24
    Gdemami said:
    ...
    You know you're doing something right if Gde is disagrees with you.

    Just funny he'd bother making a comment when he quoted something that is all a matter of fact, which has been covered by the past articles regarding the incident.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,742
    Limnic said:
    You know you're doing something right if Gde is disagrees with you.
    ...yeah, you can be sure you say shit.
    alkarionlogKyleran
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited July 24
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    You know you're doing something right if Gde is disagrees with you.
    ...yeah, you can be sure I say shit.
    Indeed. It's why instead of providing any rational argument to or against a topic, slapping the LOL button and making silly taunts is all some people can do.

    Much like how some people devolve into hissy-fits when their tangents don't work out the way they intended and have to bail out by insulting the other person.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,742
    edited July 24
    Limnic said:
    Indeed. It's why instead of providing any rational argument to or against a topic
    ....there is no way to talk sense into irrational mind.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited July 24
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    Indeed. It's why instead of providing any rational argument to or against a topic, slapping the LOL button and making silly taunts is all some people can do.
    ....there is no way to talk sense into irrational mind.
    General point for public forum is not necessarily to convince an individual, but to provide information for the public.

    Yeah, engaging an irrational mind that slaps a LOL button as a form of protest to everything that defies their strange opinions may not convince them personally of something, but anyone else that reads the thread can hope to glean something meaningful.

    Granted, when such an irrational person starts making pointless tangents to bury relevant information, we can see the strange desperation they display in obfuscating the base facts.

    Given the case as it was described in the news, and the contents of Unity's EULA on the subject, what possible interpretation do you think is logical for you to have a disagreement with the facts pointed out above?

    You can smash that LOL button like you always do and admit you have nothing rational to put here, or provide a rational argument. 
    Gdemami
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 6,979
    Can somebody ELI5 what a SpatialOS is? 

    image

  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Can somebody ELI5 what a SpatialOS is? 
    You pay them to try and solve the basic online structure for a game with server-based solutions they have already built.
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,742
    edited July 24
    Limnic said:
    You can smash that LOL button like you always do and admit you have nothing rational to put here, or provide a rational argument. 
    ....you call them "facts", like I said before, there is no way to have a rational discussion with you.

    You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about but that does not stop you from making ridiculous assumotions how any if that works....irrational mind.

    To keep it simple:

    Normally, you build your game and let it run on some server that is either on-premise or hosted.

    What SpatialOS does, besides netcode, is that allows you to run your game in the cloud,it is a cloud service, or platform.

    Instead of loading up the game onto a server, you load it up into SpatialOS that will then split up the game world into smaller instances or types that will be handled seperatedly - a cloud computing where each 'service' is provided required computational power.

    This what Unity made a fuss about - they did not like the fundamental 'change' how their Unity server works, although SpatialOS is just a service.

    In fact, it is the opposite of your nonsense masterpiece:

    "Spatial breached terms of the original eula by repackaging parts of Unity's network layer in it's product."

    Unity multiplayer/netcode is shit, saying SpatialOS repackaged(whatever that is) part of Unity netcode in their own product is just hilarious ignorance.
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,742
    Limnic said:
    You pay them to try and solve the basic online structure for a game with server-based solutions they have already built.
    ....ffs stop already.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited July 24
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    You can smash that LOL button like you always do and admit you have nothing rational to put here, or provide a rational argument. 
    ....you call them "facts" because they are facts
    You saying something I referenced from what Unity and the articles themselves wrote is wrong, for you to insert a statement of your own, is much more to the point a "ridiculous assumption".

    When Unity expressly called out that they broke the End User License Agreement, and how they did so, for you to call it hilarious ignorance ends up meaning little. You mean to say you believe what was written in the articles and by Unity regarding this is "hilarious ignorance" then?

    Hence too why the Unity GDK for Spatial ended up moving to a MIT license and is no longer a sold component.

    Sounds like the most you've done is look up Improbable's comments.
    Gdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 11,742
    Limnic said:
    You saying something I referenced from what Unity and the articles themselves wrote is wrong, for you to insert a statement of your own, is much more to the point a "ridiculous assumption".
    ...what was written is not what you think was written because you lack comprehension for the text content - you are ignorant on topic, your 'stolen code piece' above is just shining example.
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited July 24
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    You saying something I referenced from what Unity and the articles themselves wrote is wrong, for you to insert a statement of your own, is much more to the point a "ridiculous assumption".
    I am ignorant on topic

    Unity called it out and addressed it in a followup after noting Spatial was "making unauthorized and improper use of Unity’s technology".

    Your unfamiliarity with the situation, and arbitrary inserts of your assumptions, does not help you.

    Part of it was what I had mentioned prior to that, being Spatial also not being a Unity Approved Platform, IE, a service that had actually gone through compliance and Unity had been able to vet as a service.

    Taking such a finite component and focusing on it, claiming it's wrong when it isn't, and then making the false illusion that it was the only thing that has been addressed or was the full scope of the issue, is not only ignorance, but dishonesty.
    Gdemami
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    edited July 24
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    You can smash that LOL button like you always do and admit you have nothing rational to put here, or provide a rational argument. 
    ....you call them "facts", like I said before, there is no way to have a rational discussion with you.

    You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about but that does not stop you from making ridiculous assumotions how any if that works....irrational mind.

    To keep it simple:

    Normally, you build your game and let it run on some server that is either on-premise or hosted.

    What SpatialOS does, besides netcode, is that allows you to run your game in the cloud,it is a cloud service, or platform.

    Instead of loading up the game onto a server, you load it up into SpatialOS that will then split up the game world into smaller instances or types that will be handled seperatedly - a cloud computing where each 'service' is provided required computational power.

    This what Unity made a fuss about - they did not like the fundamental 'change' how their Unity server works, although SpatialOS is just a service.

    In fact, it is the opposite of your nonsense masterpiece:

    "Spatial breached terms of the original eula by repackaging parts of Unity's network layer in it's product."

    Unity multiplayer/netcode is shit, saying SpatialOS repackaged(whatever that is) part of Unity netcode in their own product is just hilarious ignorance.
    Also to make some corrections to your hastily rambled argument. 

    SpatialOS offering cloud-based solutions is them offering external server solutions. The could isn't a magical thing, it's servers. Servers that someone has to operate and manage. You're just paying them to do it.

    So, "instead of loading up of the game onto a server" You load it up onto their servers, and they use their networking code and solutions to communicate back to the game client you develop using their SpatialOS plugins.

    You're just poking at their server architecture after that with them using server shards to compartmentalize and budget things.

    There's a bunch of Unity Approved Platforms that do this kind of thing. The difference being, they have gone through the process to be a Unity Approved Platform, and either did not leverage components of Unity's own tech, or had the legal permissions as an approved platform to do so.

    Unity has since opened it to saying games developed on non approved platforms are free to do so, which they technically were already, but they don't get support from Unity in implementation  because they have no communication or relationship with those platforms.

    So to put simply. Yes, Spatial uses "the cloud". "The cloud" is a server.
    A server you load your game onto. 
    Hence, you pay Spatial to use their server solutions.

    You didn't even try making a rational argument, you just posted stuff and hoped no one gave it a second thought.
    Gdemami
  • LinifLinif Member UncommonPosts: 139
    edited July 24
    Limnic said:
    Gdemami said:
    Limnic said:
    <snip>
    <snip>
    Also to make some corrections to your hastily rambled argument. 

    SpatialOS offering cloud-based solutions is them offering external server solutions. The could isn't a magical thing, it's servers. Servers that someone has to operate and manage. You're just paying them to do it.

    So, "instead of loading up of the game onto a server" You load it up onto their servers, and they use their networking code and solutions to communicate back to the game client you develop using their SpatialOS plugins.

    You're just poking at their server architecture after that with them using server shards to compartmentalize and budget things.

    There's a bunch of Unity Approved Platforms that do this kind of thing. The difference being, they have gone through the process to be a Unity Approved Platform, and either did not leverage components of Unity's own tech, or had the legal permissions as an approved platform to do so.

    Unity has since opened it to saying games developed on non approved platforms are free to do so, which they technically were already, but they don't get support from Unity in implementation  because they have no communication or relationship with those platforms.

    So to put simply. Yes, Spatial uses "the cloud". "The cloud" is a server.
    A server you load your game onto. 
    Hence, you pay Spatial to use their server solutions.

    You didn't even try making a rational argument, you just posted stuff and hoped no one gave it a second thought.
    EDIT: I probably should have done some reading before asking questions. I've got a better handle on the discussion. Woops.
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