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  • GorweGorwe Member EpicPosts: 6,098
    Sovrath said:
    Gorwe said:
    Sovrath said:
    people assume Dark Souls hard..... I'm like what ?..... Where did this come from !  

    Do people expect to die in Dark Souls? Do they tout the "you will die a lot" mantra for dark souls?

    yes. Then it's hard.

    "but I can ..."

    Great, "you can" but other people find it hard and when it becomes a commonplace phrase for a game "you will die" then it's hard

    "Yeah, but I don't ..."

    Good, you don't but many people do.
    They're not hard. They're just punishing and, often, outright cheap. Also, marketing.
    So anyone can breeze through Dark Souls? Heck, anyone can just pick it up and play it without really paying attention?

    If someone misses a shield bash or doesn't move out of the way in time or doesn't pay attention to something around the corner while engaging an enemy they will die.

    Sure, once you learn the areas and know what to expect they become easier.

    But they are "hard."

    There are people who have never completed the Dark Souls games. They require patience, they require being quick and paying attention.

    If you have no issues with this they might not be "hard" for you but in general, they are hard for most people.

    Let's define one thing. What does "hard" even mean? You can do them perfectly fine with as few as 25 deaths(as a newbie). Which is nothing. But they do require ATTENTION, true enough. And in this modern, multitasking saturated world, they could indeed be "hard" because you xan't watch a <sport> match and play the game efficiently. Just doesn't work in DkS. But even a tiny bit of attention, of perception and the Souls become quite pathetic in difficulty.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,099
    There is nothing wrong with the combat.  Main problem is content is too easy.  Which is understandable since developer want their game to be doable by most of its player.

    I think a better approach is infinite dungeon with leader board like what ARPG is doing.
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,989
    lol based on the past threads I have seen, including this one the OPs avatar is fitting.


  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 1,116
    Kyleran said:
    I posed a question: 
    Since all mmorpg's are JUST above motor skill function.  And adults are playing them.  Obviously easy.  Are you enjoying this third generation of "combat not being the object" of the game ? 


    It seems no one would outright say "yes"
    But like a politician arguing everything is fine, is saying "yes"

    So my question was answered by about five liking child like. 
    Still not sure about the majority just these five or so.  However the question is for the most part unanswered.  I think the majority are keeping silent to avoid being scorned. 

    I'll say Yes, modern MMORPGs with "action combat" are either beyond my ability or interest to play, I lack the physical coordination and attention span to enjoy such.

    I've seen videos of people truly good at such combat, they are phenomenally quick and have every key press muscle memoried (or saved in a macro) and I could never compete in combat against such.

    I recall there was a poster here about 5 years ago always pointing out how the WOW Warlock was one of the deepest "classes" in gaming, offering as evidence the 18 or so steps in it's full rotation of skills.

    Also, many newer MMORPGs have eliminated proper raiding. Why? Perhaps because it is very expensive content to create that many people, INCLUDING YOU, don't actually bother to do.

    Even with Blizzard making raiding way easier today compared to vanilla (where you still don't raid even today) many players continue to ignore it.

    Your complaint accurately describes the lack of challenge in day to day gameplay and grinding,  but you do not avail yourself much of the oft times very challenging elements some games offer in high end PVE and PVP.
    Problem with the rotation example was that it's not really upping the difficulty, it's just rote memory.


    Thing is, most game's absolve challenge by relatively simple means because challenge through complexity creates a narrower band of consumers fundamentally. A simple game that creates "challenge" through making people memorize specific action patterns to repeat ad-nauseam, and then changing it up a bit occasionally, is simpler to approach than a system that has you trying to compete against a more intelligent AI, more contextualized skills, or more branching methods of gameplay.


    It's also frequently a case of underutilized depth.

    For example you can break down how ESO has integrated part of it's combat system into a fundamental set of actions with the light, heavy, block, dodge, slam, and positional advantage. They have a basic system, that if they chose to focus on it, would already have the ability to offer a decently challenging system if you had to practice finite timing and prediction to when to us a light versus heavy strike, when to block versus dodge. etc.

    And some of that is there. Plus the class and other skills you can collect to create additional play options.

    But is the potential depth that the system has supported? Not really. Or at least not well. It's not very tight on actions so the time you have between reading a tell and reacting to it is pretty long usually, and the tells themselves are made very obvious. The skills that add to the core combat system largely overrides the core combat mechanic's value in favor of DPS spam, and contextual elements tend to get circumvented as well through use of some skills. 


    Guess in general I feel it's a more accurate criticism of gaming to say most devs (or publishers) are afraid of marginalizing their consumer base to chase "deep" or challenging gameplay through clever or complex methods.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,811
    Tiller said:
    lol based on the past threads I have seen, including this one the OPs avatar is fitting.
    Glad you brought this up, It's the mad squirrel on a rock and yes, it's fitting.

    Anyway,
    I find it intriguing how angry people get over topics such as this.  Why are people taking it so personally ?....... mmorpg's are extremely easy !..... It's crystal clear !

    Young children develop basic hand eye coordination around ages four and up.  mmorpg combat is made where it's almost impossible to die even going into the late stages of the game.  mmorpgs are set to capture even the very young children.



    It's very simple really, yet with topics like this many tend to over complicate it... Often people ask "define simple".... I'm like really ?   You want me to explain how a player can round up the entire zone, then hit the world wind key, kill everything and take no damage.

    Are people taking it as I'm insulting their ego.  Well, I'm not insulting anyone.  I'm stating mmorpgs are easy I'm not blaming YOU !... It's like people are taking it as a direct attack... Why ?


    People come in all shape and sizes,
    -Some adults are fine with extremely child like combat.  They want combat taken out of the equation TO ENJOY THE GAME.....Fine, they find the enjoyment else ware. 

    Some adults like combat to be a little more than kill everything with one shot.  They want some kind of basic challenge.



    I personally like a basic challenge...BASIC CHALLENGE, It's not for everyone.  Enjoyment comes in many shapes.  Yet no one else wants a basic challenge other than me ?


    If combat degree was measured on a scale of 1 to 10.... Everyone want's 1 !!!!.... No one else wants 5 or 6 ?..... am I that alone ?..... If so I need new friends.
  • immodiumimmodium Member RarePosts: 2,578
    If you want challenge in an MMO (or any game for that matter) go do the PvP.
    Kyleran

    image
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,786
    edited January 11
    EDIT:

    On second though, message deleted. I realized I would have been wasting my time arguing with an idiot

    /EDIT


    Grunty
     
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,811
    immodium said:
    If you want challenge in an MMO (or any game for that matter) go do the PvP.
    Its sad that on a combat scale of 1 to 10.... mmorpgs being a "1", the player has to count on PvP to have any sort of challenge.

    I don't understand the (or any game for that matter), MOST games are a "6"
    Better yet a difficulty setting from "2>10"


    At least you acknowledge no challenge in mmo's
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    It seems Amathe and Jean_Luc are related, don't know why, just seems that way :|
    Its the Beard  :p
    Kyleran
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,690
    Man I love your threads, every time I open one it feels like an adventure - anything can happen!

    MMORPGs cannot have hard or complicated combat if team play becomes more important than individual skill for 'victory'. Same thing applies to sports as well. Since you're a fellow martial artist I think you'd get exactly what I mean. 
    delete5230Scot
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Song of the Week: Blackfield by Blackfield from Blackfield (2005)
    • Currently Playing: Devil May Cry 1
    • Favorite Drink: Bruichladdich Black Art 5th 1992
    • Gaming Timeline: Arcade, Commodore 64, Amiga 500, SEGA, IBM, PS, PC, PS2, More PCs, PS3, Giant PC, PS4, No More PCs, PS4 Pro.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,966
    Man I love your threads, every time I open one it feels like an adventure - anything can happen!

    MMORPGs cannot have hard or complicated combat if team play becomes more important than individual skill for 'victory'. Same thing applies to sports as well. Since you're a fellow martial artist I think you'd get exactly what I mean. 
    Think of it like this.

    Long ago and far away people who were very skilled in martial arts or sword fighting were highly effective in combat, mowing down hordes of regular Joe's in any battle based on their "skill".

    Thing is, there are hordes of "joes" so some enterprising person invented....the Long Bow.

    Individually it requires a decent amount of skill, but in a horde of 1000 arrows per volley of lethal efficiently can be achieved by almost anyone strong enough to pull it back, even children.

    For those who couldn't manage bows, well that's where Pikemen come into play.

    Fast forward to more modern times, the bow has been replaced by firearms, now even children can be handed an AK-47 and be a serious threat against trained special forces, especially if in great number.

    Sure, RA still beats home guard but recall one of the greatest armies on earth lost in Vietnam not to the RA, but rather the well armed home guard always in the shadows.

    So is it surprising MMOs take the approach of making the average Joe feel he's effective, or else why would they want to even play, or who would want them on their team?




    ConstantineMerusPalebanemmolou

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,811
    Kyleran said:
    Man I love your threads, every time I open one it feels like an adventure - anything can happen!

    MMORPGs cannot have hard or complicated combat if team play becomes more important than individual skill for 'victory'. Same thing applies to sports as well. Since you're a fellow martial artist I think you'd get exactly what I mean. 
    Think of it like this.

    Long ago and far away people who were very skilled in martial arts or sword fighting were highly effective in combat, mowing down hordes of regular Joe's in any battle based on their "skill".

    Thing is, there are hordes of "joes" so some enterprising person invented....the Long Bow.

    Individually it requires a decent amount of skill, but in a horde of 1000 arrows per volley of lethal efficiently can be achieved by almost anyone strong enough to pull it back, even children.

    For those who couldn't manage bows, well that's where Pikemen come into play.

    Fast forward to more modern times, the bow has been replaced by firearms, now even children can be handed an AK-47 and be a serious threat against trained special forces, especially if in great number.

    Sure, RA still beats home guard but recall one of the greatest armies on earth lost in Vietnam not to the RA, but rather the well armed home guard always in the shadows.

    So is it surprising MMOs take the approach of making the average Joe feel he's effective, or else why would they want to even play, or who would want them on their team?




    Love your story,
    Its like your saying the Long bow replaced open hand, then the AK-47 replace the Long bow.

    BUT, and I'll stress this people on average don't carry guns.  Pull a gun, automatic jail time or close too it. 

    I have a future sun in law, that carries.  The guy is a loose cannon, he'll be locked up in no time because he watches all the stupid gun rights activists Youtubes.  I can't wait to say I told you so, when he's shouting his rights in a cell at 2 am. Then paying 10 ousands in legal fees to prove it. 
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,193
    edited January 11
    Derros said:
    If you are asking if I prefer how MMOs play now adays rather than how they played in the days of EQ/Anarchy Online, then my answer has to be yes. I did not care for grinding camps for hours.
    Agree,
    I tried P1999 last year.  "It sucked 100%", only to be appreciated for it's intent.
    It reeked of simply being old.  
    Hmm that was not what you said when you first tried it.

    BTW for someone who has been making all of those "Pantheon is the savior" posts - you do realize that P99(EQ1 vanilla) is the blueprint for Pantheon?

    Amazing 
    TheScavengerpoorbaby
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,690
    Kyleran said:
    Man I love your threads, every time I open one it feels like an adventure - anything can happen!

    MMORPGs cannot have hard or complicated combat if team play becomes more important than individual skill for 'victory'. Same thing applies to sports as well. Since you're a fellow martial artist I think you'd get exactly what I mean. 
    Think of it like this.

    Long ago and far away people who were very skilled in martial arts or sword fighting were highly effective in combat, mowing down hordes of regular Joe's in any battle based on their "skill".

    Thing is, there are hordes of "joes" so some enterprising person invented....the Long Bow.

    Individually it requires a decent amount of skill, but in a horde of 1000 arrows per volley of lethal efficiently can be achieved by almost anyone strong enough to pull it back, even children.

    For those who couldn't manage bows, well that's where Pikemen come into play.

    Fast forward to more modern times, the bow has been replaced by firearms, now even children can be handed an AK-47 and be a serious threat against trained special forces, especially if in great number.

    Sure, RA still beats home guard but recall one of the greatest armies on earth lost in Vietnam not to the RA, but rather the well armed home guard always in the shadows.

    So is it surprising MMOs take the approach of making the average Joe feel he's effective, or else why would they want to even play, or who would want them on their team?




    Coordination is much harder to achieve in doing complicated actions for larger groups of people. You need to keep the actions simpler. Here's another example; synchronized dancing of groups is wonderful, but the moves are much more simple, same dancers can do much more complicated moves when they are performing solo. Now imagine a boss fight with a large group of people. Coordination is much more important than individual combat skills. It always has been like that. I'm not saying individual doesn't have a role. I'm saying when you design your game for large group of people to play together, you have to simplify the combat on the individual level. 

    I hope I'm making sense, you caught me at the happy hour. 
    delete5230Kyleran
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
    • Song of the Week: Blackfield by Blackfield from Blackfield (2005)
    • Currently Playing: Devil May Cry 1
    • Favorite Drink: Bruichladdich Black Art 5th 1992
    • Gaming Timeline: Arcade, Commodore 64, Amiga 500, SEGA, IBM, PS, PC, PS2, More PCs, PS3, Giant PC, PS4, No More PCs, PS4 Pro.
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 513

    BUT, and I'll stress this people on average don't carry guns.  
    Hehe, just goes to prove how out of touch you really are.

    My sister-in-law carries a taser and a gun.  She's not a gun rights advocate, in fact she is a God fearing woman.  You'd never suspect in a thousand years that she has them.

    Then you have my co-worker who thinks an AK-47 is a target rifle.  Another non-gun rights advocate.  Sweetest guy you'd ever meet.  He just likes automatic weapons in the same way someone likes fast cars.

    These are average people from everyday life.  I don't know how many people own guns, but I certainly would never assume someone with a gun is a nut case waiting to happen. 


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,811
    DMKano said:
    Derros said:
    If you are asking if I prefer how MMOs play now adays rather than how they played in the days of EQ/Anarchy Online, then my answer has to be yes. I did not care for grinding camps for hours.
    Agree,
    I tried P1999 last year.  "It sucked 100%", only to be appreciated for it's intent.
    It reeked of simply being old.  
    Hmm that was not what you said when you first tried it.

    BTW for someone who has been making all of those "Pantheon is the savior" posts - you do realize that P99(EQ1 vanilla) is the blueprint for Pantheon?

    Amazing 
    Hmm back at you :)
    To the absolute best of my knowledge I don't bullshit.  I did prematurely hype the game. And to be honest it deserves hype.  It's a good game, it's a broken game !

    It's an OLD game, OLD AS THE HILLS.  It's as old as the first cars.  You know the ones you have to wind up to get em started...same thing 1999... Do I really have to go on ?



    Pantheon should be 2019-2020ish, it should be fixed from all that stuff back in 1999.  Judging from the coding I'm seeing from streams, I at least hope so.
    mmolou
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,811
    edited January 11
    btdt said:

    BUT, and I'll stress this people on average don't carry guns.  
    Hehe, just goes to prove how out of touch you really are.

    My sister-in-law carries a taser and a gun.  She's not a gun rights advocate, in fact she is a God fearing woman.  You'd never suspect in a thousand years that she has them.

    Then you have my co-worker who thinks an AK-47 is a target rifle.  Another non-gun rights advocate.  Sweetest guy you'd ever meet.  He just likes automatic weapons in the same way someone likes fast cars.

    These are average people from everyday life.  I don't know how many people own guns, but I certainly would never assume someone with a gun is a nut case waiting to happen. 


    A noveist with a gun is dangerous. 

    <A quite from Law and Order>
    Most people get their gun taken away from them !

    Sounds like the sister-in-law and the co-worker may fall into this category.

    Having the guts to do whats necessary, gun or no gun is few and far between this day and age.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,811
    edited January 11
    Kyleran said:
    Man I love your threads, every time I open one it feels like an adventure - anything can happen!

    MMORPGs cannot have hard or complicated combat if team play becomes more important than individual skill for 'victory'. Same thing applies to sports as well. Since you're a fellow martial artist I think you'd get exactly what I mean. 
    Think of it like this.

    Long ago and far away people who were very skilled in martial arts or sword fighting were highly effective in combat, mowing down hordes of regular Joe's in any battle based on their "skill".

    Thing is, there are hordes of "joes" so some enterprising person invented....the Long Bow.

    Individually it requires a decent amount of skill, but in a horde of 1000 arrows per volley of lethal efficiently can be achieved by almost anyone strong enough to pull it back, even children.

    For those who couldn't manage bows, well that's where Pikemen come into play.

    Fast forward to more modern times, the bow has been replaced by firearms, now even children can be handed an AK-47 and be a serious threat against trained special forces, especially if in great number.

    Sure, RA still beats home guard but recall one of the greatest armies on earth lost in Vietnam not to the RA, but rather the well armed home guard always in the shadows.

    So is it surprising MMOs take the approach of making the average Joe feel he's effective, or else why would they want to even play, or who would want them on their team?




    Coordination is much harder to achieve in doing complicated actions for larger groups of people. You need to keep the actions simpler. Here's another example; synchronized dancing of groups is wonderful, but the moves are much more simple, same dancers can do much more complicated moves when they are performing solo. Now imagine a boss fight with a large group of people. Coordination is much more important than individual combat skills. It always has been like that. I'm not saying individual doesn't have a role. I'm saying when you design your game for large group of people to play together, you have to simplify the combat on the individual level. 

    I hope I'm making sense, you caught me at the happy hour. 
    Very good, infact great !!!!

    By this I could 100% tell your an experienced Martial Artist.

    Coordination with a group of practitioners is for the most part to keep the teaching uniform, however it's also to focus on coordination itself.  If you cant do it together you don't know the technique well enough to execute with an automatic reaction if needed.

    Like Jackie Chan, he is truly real when his fast fights and blocks everything !



    Synchronized dancing,
    Last year I went to a children dance demonstration to watch our 4 year old granddaughter.
    Their were Senior high school students heading the class..... Every one was chairing them and loving it.  These 18 year olds were eating it up, their ego was through the roof.  When in reality they were awful.  They were not in shape AT ALL.  An experienced person could clearly see they didn't practice, they were simply going off pure memory from years of doing it. 

    Going from a low lunge to standing or jumping was slow and awkward to say the very least...zero grace that shows natural movement was not their. 

    An 18 year old to excel in dance or Martial Arts needs to be gifted and in shape !   I hate to say it.... You have it or you don't, none of these kids had it.

    No such thing as, give them a break, their only in High School !
    ConstantineMerus
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,193
    Very good, infact great !!!!

    By this I could 100% tell your an experienced Martial Artist.

    Coordination with a group of practitioners is for the most part to keep the teaching uniform, however it's also to focus on coordination itself.  If you cant do it together you don't really know the technique well enough to execute with an automatic reaction if needed.

    Like Jackie Chan, he is truly real when his fast fights and blocks everything !



    Synchronized dancing,
    Last year I went to a children dance demonstration to watch our 4 year old granddaughter.
    Their were Senior high school students heading the class..... Every one was chairing them and loving it.  These 18 year olds were eating it up, their ego was through the roof.  When in reality they were awful.  They were not in shape AT ALL.  An experienced person could clearly see they didn't practice, they were simply going off pure memory from years of doing it. 

    Going from a low lunge to standing or jumping was slow and awkward to say the very least...zero grace that shows natural movement was not their. 

    An 18 year old to excel in dance or Martial Arts needs to be gifted and in shape !   I hate to say it you have it or you don't, none of them had it.

    No such thing as, give them a break, their only in High School !
    I read this in Trump's voice. Freaked me out.
    delete5230ConstantineMerusmmolouTheScavengerpoorbaby
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,070
    edited January 11
    Gorwe said:

    Let's define one thing. What does "hard" even mean? You can do them perfectly fine with as few as 25 deaths(as a newbie). Which is nothing. But they do require ATTENTION, true enough. And in this modern, multitasking saturated world, they could indeed be "hard" because you xan't watch a <sport> match and play the game efficiently. Just doesn't work in DkS. But even a tiny bit of attention, of perception and the Souls become quite pathetic in difficulty.
    Not everyone can be a sprinter, not everyone can play an instrument, not everyone is good at math.

    Just because you think the game is not hard doesn't mean others do.

    You might be wired and coordinated enough to find these games easy. That's great. But there are many people who have great difficulty with them.

    I can pick up a musical instrument and within 6 months be able to play it fine. within a year I can play close to professional. This is easy. Should I say that playing musical instruments are easy when there are people who struggle with them?

    No. Playing a musical instrument "well" is hard but for a few people they find it easy.

    If Dark Souls is not difficult then most people would figure it out and zip right through them. They don't.


    Post edited by Sovrath on
    delete5230immodiumConstantineMerus



  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Yep and what I consider the most child like of games, Fortnite, is making 1.6 million a day on mobile devices alone. So that's why the MMORPG industry ditched the more punitive portions of their games, to get more people to play them. Its not fucking rocket science. And while some indie companies are trying to bring the olds days and old ways back, they're never going to appeal to the masses.

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,811
    DMKano said:
    Very good, infact great !!!!

    By this I could 100% tell your an experienced Martial Artist.

    Coordination with a group of practitioners is for the most part to keep the teaching uniform, however it's also to focus on coordination itself.  If you cant do it together you don't really know the technique well enough to execute with an automatic reaction if needed.

    Like Jackie Chan, he is truly real when his fast fights and blocks everything !



    Synchronized dancing,
    Last year I went to a children dance demonstration to watch our 4 year old granddaughter.
    Their were Senior high school students heading the class..... Every one was chairing them and loving it.  These 18 year olds were eating it up, their ego was through the roof.  When in reality they were awful.  They were not in shape AT ALL.  An experienced person could clearly see they didn't practice, they were simply going off pure memory from years of doing it. 

    Going from a low lunge to standing or jumping was slow and awkward to say the very least...zero grace that shows natural movement was not their. 

    An 18 year old to excel in dance or Martial Arts needs to be gifted and in shape !   I hate to say it you have it or you don't, none of them had it.

    No such thing as, give them a break, their only in High School !
    I read this in Trump's voice. Freaked me out.
    We all have a God given gift when were born.  Natural and flexible, same for you DMkano :)

    As time passes and we don't use certain movements, it becomes lost.  It's best to never endingly allow this to happen.  Since prehistoric times, humans utilized EVERY FUNCTION, up until the last century.  The Ape family has this, we have it too, unfortunately we quickly loose it, but with good reason we no longer need it.  At a young age, it could be regained, as we get older it becomes harder..... However never give in, start at 60 years old if needed.

    To take this to the next level, the Ape family has a powerful whipping action generating from their flexible hips that would swing the arms, that could knock a person cold with little effort.  Well guess what, humans could utilize this secret also.... It's called Kung Fu ! 



    Synchronized dancing, exactly the same, but not for fighting. 

    Thanking this a step deeper "Ballet Dancing".  Without looking for a definition is to Demonstrate the above actions...Grace !   
  • WarEnsembleWarEnsemble Member UncommonPosts: 209
    The original post and the posts that follow have no cohesive purpose. It is just a collection of nonsensical ramblings.
    Amathedelete5230
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,070
    The original post and the posts that follow have no cohesive purpose. It is just a collection of nonsensical ramblings.
    Well, then, welcome to the club. B)
    MisterZebubPalebaneConstantineMerusScot



  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    Sovrath said:
    The original post and the posts that follow have no cohesive purpose. It is just a collection of nonsensical ramblings.
    Well, then, welcome to the club. B)
    Table dog purple liquefy indeed.
    Scot

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

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