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2018 State of Elyria Retrospective

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Comments

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    I honestly thought the game looked cool. I'm just really confused as to what is going on with it. So there has been a bunch of different iterations of the game they promised? Or is this additional things. Like why would they want to develop VoxElyria? Just to give people something to play while the real game is being worked on? Doesn't that waste resources? 
    Not according to Caspian, apparently.

    image
  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,535
    edited January 2019
    Tiller said:
    I can't believe they are still making this.
    They probably aren't still making this because they probably were never making it in the first place.

    If they were actually making it, they'd have probably like, you know, achieved a (late) milestone by now.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    Last post literally is a backer saying he is fine with the idea that timelines were complete lies so long as it means the game gets finished eventually.  That post alone makes me want to create an account to explain how absolutely retarded that stance is.
    That is the mentality which enables them to post 3 major releases for 2018 and release none of them yet still raise a million dollars.  It’s what let’s them hype SpatialOS, ElyriaMud, VoxElyria... and discontinue them all... yet continue to raise boatloads of cash.

    Easier to blame “negative Nancy’s “ for not understanding game development timelines than blame the actual developers for not understanding the same.
    I actually agree with that backer.  I think the dates are completely irrelevant(or, rather, the least of worries).  What's scary is that Jeromy seemed to firmly believe those timelines.

    The real issue is as Slap mentions -- the wasted time.  They've spent the last two years working(supposedly) on a truckload of projects only to toss them in the gutter. 
    What's scary is the lack of knowledge and project management experience. 
    What are they at now? 5.6 million funded?  That's a terrifying amount to potentially go to waste while Jeromy learns the very basics of leading a project for the first time.

    So far, they have basically nothing to show for their time and money, from what we've seen.  With the exception of a couple of tech demos, they really haven't shown anything at all.
    Tech demos being:
    • their E3 parkour thing
    • the scripted, silly Princess Bride fencing scene
    • the jousting demo
    Which, if Slap is correct, they apparently aren't even keeping copies of? WTF...?

    At this point, I'm picturing an announcement a year or two from now:
    "Hey guys, we've got some very disappointing news.  We were in the process of migrating data... blah.. blah.. didn't have any backups of our data... blah.. blah... lost everything... project cancelled... blah blah...  all the fault of the naysayers...  their negativity caused this data crash... we have faith in you, true believers to help us restart on our new adventure... we'll be back with another project on KS soon... we are the storm."
    AnOldFartKyleran
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,540
    I honestly thought the game looked cool. I'm just really confused as to what is going on with it. So there has been a bunch of different iterations of the game they promised? Or is this additional things. Like why would they want to develop VoxElyria? Just to give people something to play while the real game is being worked on? Doesn't that waste resources? 
    Not according to Caspian, apparently.
    Damn. Well I hope the product does eventually come out. It seems like something I would love to play. 
    AnOldFart
  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member RarePosts: 540
    edited January 2019
    I honestly thought the game looked cool. I'm just really confused as to what is going on with it. So there has been a bunch of different iterations of the game they promised? Or is this additional things. Like why would they want to develop VoxElyria? Just to give people something to play while the real game is being worked on? Doesn't that waste resources? 
    It was to test game mechanics/server capacity or something...to be honest I lost interest after bullshit post number 50
    Panther2103KyleranGdemami
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,751
    Lokero said:
    Last post literally is a backer saying he is fine with the idea that timelines were complete lies so long as it means the game gets finished eventually.  That post alone makes me want to create an account to explain how absolutely retarded that stance is.
    That is the mentality which enables them to post 3 major releases for 2018 and release none of them yet still raise a million dollars.  It’s what let’s them hype SpatialOS, ElyriaMud, VoxElyria... and discontinue them all... yet continue to raise boatloads of cash.

    Easier to blame “negative Nancy’s “ for not understanding game development timelines than blame the actual developers for not understanding the same.
    I actually agree with that backer.  I think the dates are completely irrelevant(or, rather, the least of worries).  What's scary is that Jeromy seemed to firmly believe those timelines.

    The real issue is as Slap mentions -- the wasted time.  They've spent the last two years working(supposedly) on a truckload of projects only to toss them in the gutter. 
    What's scary is the lack of knowledge and project management experience. 
    What are they at now? 5.6 million funded?  That's a terrifying amount to potentially go to waste while Jeromy learns the very basics of leading a project for the first time.

    So far, they have basically nothing to show for their time and money, from what we've seen.  With the exception of a couple of tech demos, they really haven't shown anything at all.
    Tech demos being:
    • their E3 parkour thing
    • the scripted, silly Princess Bride fencing scene
    • the jousting demo
    Which, if Slap is correct, they apparently aren't even keeping copies of? WTF...?

    At this point, I'm picturing an announcement a year or two from now:
    "Hey guys, we've got some very disappointing news.  We were in the process of migrating data... blah.. blah.. didn't have any backups of our data... blah.. blah... lost everything... project cancelled... blah blah...  all the fault of the naysayers...  their negativity caused this data crash... we have faith in you, true believers to help us restart on our new adventure... we'll be back with another project on KS soon... we are the storm."
    If I were going to say anything positive about how this project has gone, I'd say that they've been smart in one aspect.  If they come to the point where they have to close up shop and simply quit development, they don't have any personal investment on the line, and no obligation other than their own conscious that would require them to repay the money they have raised.  It's all donations.

    I'm afraid it is going to take a complete failure to show people just how flimsy the crowdfunding model actually is.  It will hurt lots of people, none of them being the development team.  I don't know if CoE is actually big enough to make customers realize that.  Star Citizen, maybe.  CoE, no.



    Gdemami

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,538
    My guess is these CF games are setup as non profit,pay no taxes,give themselves nice salaries/wages.
    There is NOBODY to decide their salaries/wages,example Chris Roberts likely pays his wife a huge salary to just appear in their videos and likely shows up at the office once a day to make an official appearance.
    Point being,what any respectable business would pay for salaries wages would likely be MUCH lower than what these operate under.Now of course if they are not receiving a lot of money they can't give it all to themselves and the game goes stagnant however some like Roberts with 200 million most certainly can ABUSE that money.
    The law ,governing bodies are simply VERY lazy,they don't want to get out of their desk chair unless to get a coffee.They SHOULD be setting up definitive guidelines that CF devs need to follow but yeah too lazy.

    It is such a gray area nobody even knows where the money goes,it could be in offshore accounts.These teams could simply CONTRACT employees,meaning the game migth actually be sitting idle for long periods then when some money comes in they contract a small bit of work to make it look like something is being done.This is why you can see very long drawn out what seems like a finished product NEVER arrives ever,has there ever been a CF game completed ever?


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,027
    Wizardry said:
    My guess is these CF games are setup as non profit,pay no taxes,give themselves nice salaries/wages.
    There is NOBODY to decide their salaries/wages,example Chris Roberts likely pays his wife a huge salary to just appear in their videos and likely shows up at the office once a day to make an official appearance.
    Point being,what any respectable business would pay for salaries wages would likely be MUCH lower than what these operate under.Now of course if they are not receiving a lot of money they can't give it all to themselves and the game goes stagnant however some like Roberts with 200 million most certainly can ABUSE that money.
    The law ,governing bodies are simply VERY lazy,they don't want to get out of their desk chair unless to get a coffee.They SHOULD be setting up definitive guidelines that CF devs need to follow but yeah too lazy.

    It is such a gray area nobody even knows where the money goes,it could be in offshore accounts.These teams could simply CONTRACT employees,meaning the game migth actually be sitting idle for long periods then when some money comes in they contract a small bit of work to make it look like something is being done.This is why you can see very long drawn out what seems like a finished product NEVER arrives ever,has there ever been a CF game completed ever?


    Actually in the case of Portalarium as they are a public company they publish annual financials which have shown a steadily growing tax debt which they deferred during development. 

    I assume now that they have "released" they have to start paying it down and I recall it being around $4M plus. 


    Torval

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,067
    edited January 2019
    Like why would they want to develop VoxElyria? 
    One has to realize CoE isn't a usual game with predefined progression path and content. The focus is on game world and mechanics thus the idea was to develope simpler, lightweight asset game for testing while your artists and graphics can work on the assets for the main game - most expensive and time consuming part of game development and probably could also work as a good base for final game mechanics representation to potential investors. Think of it as prototype of the game.

     Imo, it isn't all that far stretched idea, making similar prototypes isn't all that uncommon, even EVE Online, sort of similar game design wise, had 2D version of the game for an investor pitch.

    Whether it would be a waste of resources is impossible to tell, unless you are very experienced game developer with deep insight into CoE project....
    KyleranConstantineMerusYashaX
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,980
    Gdemami said:
    Like why would they want to develop VoxElyria? 
    One has to realize CoE isn't a usual game with predefined progression path and content. The focus is on game world and mechanics thus the idea was to develope simpler, lightweight asset game for testing while your artists and graphics can work on the assets for the main game - most expensive and time consuming part of game development and probably could also work as a good base for final game mechanics representation to potential investors. Think of it as prototype of the game.

     Imo, it isn't all that far stretched idea, making similar prototypes isn't all that uncommon, even EVE Online, sort of similar game design wise, had 2D version of the game for an investor pitch.

    Whether it would be a waste of resources is impossible to tell, unless you are very experienced game developer with deep insight into CoE project....
    You mean... except for the part where they scrapped it... after scrapping it's predecessor ElyriaMud right?  But as long as someone else is paying the bills why not just keep wasting time and resources...

    GdemamicraftseekerKyleranNildenConstantineMerus

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • NildenNilden Member EpicPosts: 3,072
    Gdemami said:
    Like why would they want to develop VoxElyria? 
    One has to realize CoE isn't a usual game with predefined progression path and content. The focus is on game world and mechanics thus the idea was to develope simpler, lightweight asset game for testing while your artists and graphics can work on the assets for the main game - most expensive and time consuming part of game development and probably could also work as a good base for final game mechanics representation to potential investors. Think of it as prototype of the game.

     Imo, it isn't all that far stretched idea, making similar prototypes isn't all that uncommon, even EVE Online, sort of similar game design wise, had 2D version of the game for an investor pitch.

    Whether it would be a waste of resources is impossible to tell, unless you are very experienced game developer with deep insight into CoE project....
    You mean... except for the part where they scrapped it... after scrapping it's predecessor ElyriaMud right?  But as long as someone else is paying the bills why not just keep wasting time and resources...

    Gdemami and Caspian seem to have the same amount of game developer experience, absolutely zero.

    When they first stated they were making a MUD I called them out on it saying it was a retarded idea and pointed out nobody in the MMORPG industry does that because all a MUD can do is text.

    So now they scrapped it.

    Which completely invalidates Gdemami's claim that anyone would need to be an experienced game developer with deep insight into COE, not that I would expect any experience or insight from the guy who LOL's posts on MMORPG.com all day.




    Gdemami

    "You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon

    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer



  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,027
    Nilden said:
    Gdemami said:
    Like why would they want to develop VoxElyria? 
    One has to realize CoE isn't a usual game with predefined progression path and content. The focus is on game world and mechanics thus the idea was to develope simpler, lightweight asset game for testing while your artists and graphics can work on the assets for the main game - most expensive and time consuming part of game development and probably could also work as a good base for final game mechanics representation to potential investors. Think of it as prototype of the game.

     Imo, it isn't all that far stretched idea, making similar prototypes isn't all that uncommon, even EVE Online, sort of similar game design wise, had 2D version of the game for an investor pitch.

    Whether it would be a waste of resources is impossible to tell, unless you are very experienced game developer with deep insight into CoE project....
    You mean... except for the part where they scrapped it... after scrapping it's predecessor ElyriaMud right?  But as long as someone else is paying the bills why not just keep wasting time and resources...

    Gdemami and Caspian seem to have the same amount of game developer experience, absolutely zero.

    When they first stated they were making a MUD I called them out on it saying it was a retarded idea and pointed out nobody in the MMORPG industry does that because all a MUD can do is text.

    So now they scrapped it.

    Which completely invalidates Gdemami's claim that anyone would need to be an experienced game developer with deep insight into COE, not that I would expect any experience or insight from the guy who LOL's posts on MMORPG.com all day.





    Yea, but this quite literally is the longest and most in depth post I've ever seen @Gdemami post on these forums,  I'm starting to wonder if he is a COE backer maybe?

    Perhaps COE can go out and hire some of those experienced game developers he mentions as clearly what they have so far haven't been able to deliver on most any of their hard deliverables.

     



    ConstantineMerusGdemamiYashaX

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,980
    edited January 2019
    From these MMORPG.COM forums Oct 2017:

    First part is Jeromy quoting me.  Italics is his response.
    The problem is that your game was supposed to be in 3 month no wipe Headstart now and full release by the end of the year.  Instead you have released nothing excepts more and more monetization items.  Maybe by January (per your post) people will have a client to move their minecraft figures around.  If... instead of blaming everyone else... you actually did what you said and had launched your game's Exposition by now.. there wouldn't be a need to blame anyone.  But since you're  now saying you will be 2 years late.  That's on you.   Suck it up, stop deflecting, do what you promise and guess what.  All the complaints go away.
    We know where we estimated we'd be by now - 18 months ago. And we know why we're not. However that's not the reason you're here posting still. You've been posting negative feedback since right after our Kickstarter - over a year ago. And whenever we make a solid argument, you default to the "But you're behind," argument. If it wasn't that, you'd find something else to fall back on.

    Listen, for the people reading this, we explained why we slipped. We're not hiding it. But we let people know as early as we could, communicated when we expected to ship now, we provided an updated timeline, and even a list of features we are going to be working on and when.

    We also developed a new communication protocol where we first tell the community what we WILL be working on, then provide developer journals AS we're working on them, and then provide videos AFTER we complete them that shows how they turned out.

    So you can either be sour that we missed our estimate, or you can accept that it was an estimate, it was wrong, and we're now even more transparent with the community as result.

    And see, it's even the little jab at our VoxElyria client that's telling. I suspect you and I both know why we're doing it. It's what we've said we were going to do from the beginning - just made more approachable and enjoyable for our players.

    The VoxElyria client allows us to iterate on features quicker, without having to worry about models, animations, materials, etc. It also allows us to get players in the game sooner. All of those are fantastic things and are better for the players. You know that. I know that. But it's more interesting to poke fun at our voxel-based figures.

    --------------------------
    As they say: the more things change, the more they stay the same.  Or perhaps even better:  Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it.

    Remember, that was OCTOBER 2017.  Could have been written today except swap out VoxElyria for PreElyria and of course, 18 months ago would become 33 months ago...

    The wheels on the bus go round and round...


    Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
    KyleranMadFrenchiecraftseekerOG_ZorvanGdemamiSpottyGekkoYashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 290
    I'm a CU backer.

    CSE were wildly off in their estimated timelines at release.

    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines, other people (me including) are just a mix of critical-but-hopeful about them making a game that's good - even if the good game is late.

    Question: why are people so much more critical of CoE than of CU for being late, considering the financial scope of each project seems similar?

    Note: I don't know a ton about CoE.
    Lokerocraftseeker
  • LackingMMOLackingMMO Member RarePosts: 494
    I had high hopes for this game when I first heard about it. Then came all these posts to the point where I was thinking slap was a crazy ex girlfriend of a dev. Then the truth started to show. I now have no hopes for the game. Thanks Slap!
    GdemamicraftseekerYashaX
  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,792


    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines
    Criticizing constantly missing deadlines is trolling... ok..
    Gdemamicraftseeker
    Harbinger of Fools
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    I'm a CU backer.

    CSE were wildly off in their estimated timelines at release.

    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines, other people (me including) are just a mix of critical-but-hopeful about them making a game that's good - even if the good game is late.

    Question: why are people so much more critical of CoE than of CU for being late, considering the financial scope of each project seems similar?

    Note: I don't know a ton about CoE.
    There's a whole slew of reasons people have more faith in CU than CoE.  Some of them being:
    • CU has experience in their staff
    • MJ has actually led projects before(one can debate how successfully, but he has experience)
    • CU isn't fully crowdfunded
    • CU has actually shown progress and constantly shows their work.  As far as we know, CoE hasn't even done any real work.  They've shown basically nothing.  What they have shown is stuff that's mostly been tossed aside as cancelled side-projects.
    • People are playing CU, so we know it's real and functioning.  CoE is still in vaporware stages, until they actually show some real in-game footage or allow people access or... anything.
    • And, my first and main reason for doubting CoE (drumroll):  The project lead/head honcho guy, Jeromy Walsh(Caspian) sounds like an immature, delusional, tantrum-throwing idiot every time he speaks to the community.
    craftseekertweedledumb99YashaX
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,980
    I'm a CU backer.

    CSE were wildly off in their estimated timelines at release.

    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines, other people (me including) are just a mix of critical-but-hopeful about them making a game that's good - even if the good game is late.

    Question: why are people so much more critical of CoE than of CU for being late, considering the financial scope of each project seems similar?

    Note: I don't know a ton about CoE.
    Anyone who wants can go and get their money back from CU. 
    -------------

    Who do I contact for support or refunds?

    Contact us and we'll be glad to help: support@citystateentertainment.com.

    -------------

    They also went and got outside financing, giving up part of the company... thus pain for the developer not the customer vs monthly cash shop "events" and a P2W (advantage) cash shop. Caspien said that the supporters would not have to bear the costs... and that he would get an investor or publisher yet you can see how that turned out.

    As soon as CU stops refunds I will be all over them as well if they miss their deadlines by years and years.

    Ask Caspien for your money back and let me know how that goes.



    Gdemamicraftseekertweedledumb99YashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,027
    I'm a CU backer.

    CSE were wildly off in their estimated timelines at release.

    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines, other people (me including) are just a mix of critical-but-hopeful about them making a game that's good - even if the good game is late.

    Question: why are people so much more critical of CoE than of CU for being late, considering the financial scope of each project seems similar?

    Note: I don't know a ton about CoE.
    Compared to CU which had alpha backers "in game" within the first two years of the KSer to help test, along with fact to this day, almost 6 years after the KSer Mark is still offering refunds to anyone who asks.

    COE has largely built and literally said they lost or threw away much of their work to date and missed mist every hard deadline when it comes to actual development.

    Bottom line, COE really has nothing to show so far and hasn't provided any evidence that they have anyone working there who know what they are doing.
    Gdemamicraftseekertweedledumb99

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 290
    edited January 2019
    Dakeru said:


    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines
    Criticizing constantly missing deadlines is trolling... ok..
    *Maybe* I wasn't clear - criticizing game developers to the point of calling them failures or con artists STRICTLY on the fact they miss deadlines is trolling, because 95% of developers miss deadlines. And 95% of the ones that don't publicly miss deadlines are like that because they don't tell us their deadlines, not cause they're on time.

    So ya, that is actually trolling (edit: or just completely lacking knowledge of how the industry works while at the same time pronouncing judgments about individuals in the industry based on some unspoken nonsensical standard of "all game devs must hit every internal and public deadline"; nonsense).

    Now that I've clarified, reread my earlier post.


    craftseeker
  • tweedledumb99tweedledumb99 Member UncommonPosts: 290
    Kyleran said:
    I'm a CU backer.

    CSE were wildly off in their estimated timelines at release.

    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines, other people (me including) are just a mix of critical-but-hopeful about them making a game that's good - even if the good game is late.

    Question: why are people so much more critical of CoE than of CU for being late, considering the financial scope of each project seems similar?

    Note: I don't know a ton about CoE.
    Compared to CU which had alpha backers "in game" within the first two years of the KSer to help test, along with fact to this day, almost 6 years after the KSer Mark is still offering refunds to anyone who asks.

    COE has largely built and literally said they lost or threw away much of their work to date and missed mist every hard deadline when it comes to actual development.

    Bottom line, COE really has nothing to show so far and hasn't provided any evidence that they have anyone working there who know what they are doing.

    I'm a CU backer.

    CSE were wildly off in their estimated timelines at release.

    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines, other people (me including) are just a mix of critical-but-hopeful about them making a game that's good - even if the good game is late.

    Question: why are people so much more critical of CoE than of CU for being late, considering the financial scope of each project seems similar?

    Note: I don't know a ton about CoE.
    Anyone who wants can go and get their money back from CU. 
    -------------

    Who do I contact for support or refunds?

    Contact us and we'll be glad to help: support@citystateentertainment.com.

    -------------

    They also went and got outside financing, giving up part of the company... thus pain for the developer not the customer vs monthly cash shop "events" and a P2W (advantage) cash shop. Caspien said that the supporters would not have to bear the costs... and that he would get an investor or publisher yet you can see how that turned out.

    As soon as CU stops refunds I will be all over them as well if they miss their deadlines by years and years.

    Ask Caspien for your money back and let me know how that goes.




    Lokero said:
    I'm a CU backer.

    CSE were wildly off in their estimated timelines at release.

    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines, other people (me including) are just a mix of critical-but-hopeful about them making a game that's good - even if the good game is late.

    Question: why are people so much more critical of CoE than of CU for being late, considering the financial scope of each project seems similar?

    Note: I don't know a ton about CoE.
    There's a whole slew of reasons people have more faith in CU than CoE.  Some of them being:
    • CU has experience in their staff
    • MJ has actually led projects before(one can debate how successfully, but he has experience)
    • CU isn't fully crowdfunded
    • CU has actually shown progress and constantly shows their work.  As far as we know, CoE hasn't even done any real work.  They've shown basically nothing.  What they have shown is stuff that's mostly been tossed aside as cancelled side-projects.
    • People are playing CU, so we know it's real and functioning.  CoE is still in vaporware stages, until they actually show some real in-game footage or allow people access or... anything.
    • And, my first and main reason for doubting CoE (drumroll):  The project lead/head honcho guy, Jeromy Walsh(Caspian) sounds like an immature, delusional, tantrum-throwing idiot every time he speaks to the community.
    Thanks Slap, Lokero and Kyleran, great answers.
    PieMonster
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,027
    edited January 2019
    Dakeru said:


    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines
    Criticizing constantly missing deadlines is trolling... ok..
    *Maybe* I wasn't clear - criticizing game developers to the point of calling them failures or con artists STRICTLY on the fact they miss deadlines is trolling, because 95% of developers miss deadlines. And 95% of the ones that don't publicly miss deadlines are like that because they don't tell us their deadlines, not cause they're on time.

    So ya, that is actually trolling (edit: or just completely lacking knowledge of how the industry works while at the same time pronouncing judgments about individuals in the industry based on some unspoken nonsensical standard of "all game devs must hit every internal and public deadline"; nonsense).

    Now that I've clarified, reread my earlier post.


    A couple of thoughts.

    Even if "every" game developer does it, are we, their customers really being unreasonable to hold them accountable, especially as delays go on endlessly for years?

    It's often said we as customers should know game development is hard, more of a creative process than hard science, so timeframes can be quite long. 

    Great point, we know this, but so do developers, presumably far more than we do being they are "experts" and all that.

    So why then did CU, CF, COE, SC, and others hold crowdfunding events with such short delivery deadlines even the uniformed were skeptical 

    None of the plausible answers are pleasant
    1) they knew better, but decided to lie in order to get funding. (Ends justify the means and all)
    2) they didn't know better, scary as it implies a lack of experience in game development, perhaps of being overly optimistic or..
    3) they are incompetent, and game delivery is beyond their ability. 

    Mark Jacobs/ CU fall somewhere between one and two, but he's clearly identified and apologized for his mistakes. In addition to still offering refunds he kicked in several million more from his own pocket and found outside investors rather than squeeze backers.

    Jeremy and COE fall between two and three with it looking more and more a case of being solidly in the third category as time continues to pass with little to show for their efforts.


    GdemamiMadFrenchietweedledumb99craftseeker

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,751
    Dakeru said:


    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines
    Criticizing constantly missing deadlines is trolling... ok..
    *Maybe* I wasn't clear - criticizing game developers to the point of calling them failures or con artists STRICTLY on the fact they miss deadlines is trolling, because 95% of developers miss deadlines. And 95% of the ones that don't publicly miss deadlines are like that because they don't tell us their deadlines, not cause they're on time.

    So ya, that is actually trolling (edit: or just completely lacking knowledge of how the industry works while at the same time pronouncing judgments about individuals in the industry based on some unspoken nonsensical standard of "all game devs must hit every internal and public deadline"; nonsense).

    Now that I've clarified, reread my earlier post.


    The problem isn't a company missing a deadline.  The problem with CoE has been trying to bury the fact that deadlines were missed.  Then responding to point out the fact that they have missed every deadline isn't trolling, it's correction the spin the development team is putting on that fact.



    Gdemamitweedledumb99craftseeker

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,300
    Dakeru said:


    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines
    Criticizing constantly missing deadlines is trolling... ok..
    *Maybe* I wasn't clear - criticizing game developers to the point of calling them failures or con artists STRICTLY on the fact they miss deadlines is trolling, because 95% of developers miss deadlines. And 95% of the ones that don't publicly miss deadlines are like that because they don't tell us their deadlines, not cause they're on time.

    So ya, that is actually trolling (edit: or just completely lacking knowledge of how the industry works while at the same time pronouncing judgments about individuals in the industry based on some unspoken nonsensical standard of "all game devs must hit every internal and public deadline"; nonsense).

    Now that I've clarified, reread my earlier post.
    I think you fail to see the big picture here: CoE hasn't just missed deadlines, CoE has delivered nothing.

    Games like CU get a lot of leeway with their deadlines because they're occasionally letting people to test the game and backers can see the progress being made. Meanwhile CoE is like the nigerian prince who always tells you how the money will be transferred to your bank account very soon.
    GdemamiSlapshot1188MadFrenchieKylerantweedledumb99YashaXcraftseeker
     
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited January 2019
    Dakeru said:


    Some people give them shit (trolling) for missing deadlines
    Criticizing constantly missing deadlines is trolling... ok..
    *Maybe* I wasn't clear - criticizing game developers to the point of calling them failures or con artists STRICTLY on the fact they miss deadlines is trolling, because 95% of developers miss deadlines. And 95% of the ones that don't publicly miss deadlines are like that because they don't tell us their deadlines, not cause they're on time.

    So ya, that is actually trolling (edit: or just completely lacking knowledge of how the industry works while at the same time pronouncing judgments about individuals in the industry based on some unspoken nonsensical standard of "all game devs must hit every internal and public deadline"; nonsense).

    Now that I've clarified, reread my earlier post.


    They gave the timelines to rake in cash.  Period. 


    They get no slack when reality slaps them and their backers in the face.  Period.
    Gdemami

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