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You'll love this if you hate Denuvo

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorLegendaryPosts: 33,129Member
edited December 2018 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
And even if you don't yet, you probably will after reading it. :D

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/12/evidence-continues-to-mount-about-how-bad-denuvo-is-for-pc-gaming-performance/



One of the biggest arguments against anti-piracy checks built into video games (commonly known as "digital rights management," or DRM) is that they punish paying customers with stuttering, loading times, and other detractive gameplay issues. While leading DRM vendor Denuvo has long claimed that its tools don't hamper video games, the stats keep piling up to suggest otherwise.


¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


FonclVrikaBananableOctagon7711MadFrenchie

Comments

  • flizzerflizzer RarePosts: 2,455Member
    Wow, interesting.  I try to stay away from DRM games anway.
    Octagon7711
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 LegendaryPosts: 18,034Member
    Interesting...

    But I guess the alternative is games as a service...

    Dunno which is worse.

    Gorwe

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  • FonclFoncl UncommonPosts: 347Member
    That's one of the reasons I prefer buying my games on GoG, unless there is a good reason to buy it elsewhere. All their games are DRM-free, also you own them once bought. You can play offline, download and keep the games forever even if GoG go bankrupt. Their customer support is great, when I've had problems getting older games to run they've been extremely helpful in getting it working. They have GoG Galaxy, their own optional games launcher for Windows, if you prefer a launcher handling patches for games instead of downloading and applying them yourself.

    Unless Steam or some other platform is needed for multiplayer, modding support via the workshop or the game is much cheaper elsewhere, I don't see a reason to buy it anywhere else. Sometimes you can buy games DRM-free directly from the developer so they get all the money, which is probably the best option but it's rare.


    Po_ggBrotherMaynardOctagon7711
  • LokeroLokero RarePosts: 1,514Member
    Hasn't the industry largely given up on and moved away from Denuvo, anyhow?
    I mean, the big draw was the laughable notion that it was "uncrackable" early on.  But, of course, it's been cracked for a while now.

    I don't recall seeing many games using it lately, but then I don't really keep up with it.

    Devs need to quit wasting their time with restrictive DRM programs like that, regardless.  You don't stop the pirates and you drive away real customers.

    Anyone remember that one studio that released a "cracked" version of their own game to screw with pirates? :lol:
  • cheyanecheyane LegendaryPosts: 9,457Member
    calling @Renoaku
    SBFordPanther2103kitaradRenoakuPhry[Deleted User][Deleted User]ForgrimmIselinMrMelGibsonand 1 other.
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  • VrikaVrika LegendaryPosts: 8,064Member
    Lokero said:
    Hasn't the industry largely given up on and moved away from Denuvo, anyhow?
    I mean, the big draw was the laughable notion that it was "uncrackable" early on.  But, of course, it's been cracked for a while now.

    Denuvo still works by making the cracking just slow enough that most AAA games use it.
     
  • Panther2103Panther2103 EpicPosts: 5,779Member
    Vrika said:
    Lokero said:
    Hasn't the industry largely given up on and moved away from Denuvo, anyhow?
    I mean, the big draw was the laughable notion that it was "uncrackable" early on.  But, of course, it's been cracked for a while now.

    Denuvo still works by making the cracking just slow enough that most AAA games use it.
    This.

    The devs usually partner with denuvo to make sure the game isn't cracked for at least a small while, during the initial sales of the game. I want to see whether or not it actually helps the game sales, or hampers it. Does the few people who were willing to buy it when they couldn't pirate it outweigh the people who didn't want denuvo and didn't buy it? 
  • Po_ggPo_gg EpicPosts: 5,749Member
    Interesting...

    But I guess the alternative is games as a service...

    Dunno which is worse.

    Both are utter shite, but fortunately you are wrong, the alternative is not game as service, it is DRM-free as Fonci said as well. Just go and check gog.com's FckDRM initiative. ( https://fckdrm.com/ )

    Foncl said:
    You can play offline, download and keep the games forever even if GoG go bankrupt.
    This. You buy the game, and it is yours forever.
    FonclBrotherMaynard[Deleted User]Octagon7711
  • AmatheAmathe LegendaryPosts: 7,630Member
    Interesting read. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • RenoakuRenoaku EpicPosts: 3,157Member
    edited December 2018
    cheyane said:
    calling @Renoaku
    For my I7, and Multi-Core systems running heavy  CPU / RAM Loads Denuvo likes to run Anti-Tamper checks which basically uses up CPU time and resources that can be used on other processes such as other games.

    Even with Battlefield 1, running Black Desert or some other process makes it drop under 100 FPS which it shouldn't on a system like mine given the amount of resources it has, but this is due to Denuvo anti-tamper checks, and encryption methods at the time I didn't even know Battlefield 1 used Denuvo, Now I know why I had performance issues.

    No game company should have the right to dictate how the user can use their pc by eating up additional resources that are not required.

    - Games are often C****** before release
    - C****** very shorty after release
    - Cause perforamce impact
    - Maybe unplayable 10 years later or earlier / longer (you should own your games.)

    The funds are better put into Game Development, and as we have seen with games like The Witcher series, it doesn't matter if a few people decide to pirate the game when they end up making millions off the game anyways because it's a great game that eventually the people who did pirate end up buying the game anyways.

    (Opinion) Perhaps if developers would stop making bad games like "Dragon Age 2" and beyond taking what a great game series it was and throwing it down the drain IMO more people would be buying.

    To me - DA1 had a really emotional ending, just as "Hatred" on "Steam" has a Emotional feeling of being an active shooter in a simulated world, but Dragon Age 2, and above did not have or feel the same way at all to me thus I never bought any of the new series.

    But everytime I hear Denuvo, and see a game is single player I am like you mean Free 2 Play game?

    I got no problem with "Serial Codes" or "Steam DRM" but problem is everything created by a human can be C******.
    mmolou
  • WizardryWizardry LegendaryPosts: 19,332Member
    One of my fave games "Dishonored" lol.

    It is tough to fully understand these tests because it is possible if a site or person is trying to dramatize the results we could be seeing non factual results.

    Ok so doing a little homework.

    Just because the DRM is passed,the triggers still go off and continue to slow the game down.So like  i said there are likely technical stuff we don't understand and are being exploited here to dramatize this video.

    Ok lmao,i was typing this while video running.I see this video is talking about exactly what i am talking about.So the author talks about the only TRUE denuvo removed version "Mankind game" of ,instead of the denuvo bypassed games.So he says he went out and bought the legit version both on Steam and the version with Denuvo fully removed.


    Here is my thought however,WHY did he show all the other results if he knows full well they are inaccurate because they only utilize cracked versions and not full Denuvo removal?Like i said,hard to trust someone who has it out for Denuvo and trying to dramatize the video.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • PhryPhry LegendaryPosts: 11,004Member
    And this is why i like CDPR, with the Witcher series they proved that you don't need DRM to protect your sales, frankly the argument that people who pirate your games were never going to buy them anyway makes a lot of sense, Denuvo only punishes people who buy games that use it there has even been a few cases where it has made games virtually unplayable.  ;)
    [Deleted User]LokeroOctagon7711ConstantineMerus
  • TillerTiller LegendaryPosts: 11,638Member
    Interesting...

    But I guess the alternative is games as a service...

    Dunno which is worse.

    Which is the direction AAA publishers will go if everyone keeps trying to take swipes at Denuvo and all the while continuing to pirate the crap out of games two hours after they launch. That or literally making all games stream services where the video, sound and controls are streamed to your PC like an interactive movie.
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  • RenoakuRenoaku EpicPosts: 3,157Member
    edited December 2018
    Tiller said:
    Interesting...

    But I guess the alternative is games as a service...

    Dunno which is worse.

    Which is the direction AAA publishers will go if everyone keeps trying to take swipes at Denuvo and all the while continuing to pirate the crap out of games two hours after they launch. That or literally making all games stream services where the video, sound and controls are streamed to your PC like an interactive movie.
    Eh Look at Hitman 2 playable 3 days before release ?

    By the time a company removes Denuvo the hype is already over and they have lost sales anyways.
  • LokeroLokero RarePosts: 1,514Member
    Nyctelios said:

    Make a good game. Sell it for a fair price. People will give you money.
    I think this is an issue for developers, though.

    The notion of "fair price" to the consumer-base is ridiculously low for PC games these days.  Anything over $20-30 for a non-AAA game gets ripped apart for being "overpriced".
    This can lead to more people convincing themselves they are justified in pirating a game. "Well it should have been 10-20 bucks and I would have bought it, but 50? I'll just torrent it"

    People have developed a spoiled expectation now that PC games should be practically free. 
    It's really a crappy situation for game developers, when you consider the amount of time and cost that can go into making a game.

    Sure, you can still make a profit if you have a big hit game, but imagine how much money is lost by having to price a game at half its worth.
    You can't know a game will be a massive hit until it happens, so you can only set your price high if you are an already established franchise like The Witcher.
    Ginaz
  • RenoakuRenoaku EpicPosts: 3,157Member
    Lokero said:
    Nyctelios said:

    Make a good game. Sell it for a fair price. People will give you money.
    I think this is an issue for developers, though.

    The notion of "fair price" to the consumer-base is ridiculously low for PC games these days.  Anything over $20-30 for a non-AAA game gets ripped apart for being "overpriced".
    This can lead to more people convincing themselves they are justified in pirating a game. "Well it should have been 10-20 bucks and I would have bought it, but 50? I'll just torrent it"

    People have developed a spoiled expectation now that PC games should be practically free. 
    It's really a crappy situation for game developers, when you consider the amount of time and cost that can go into making a game.

    Sure, you can still make a profit if you have a big hit game, but imagine how much money is lost by having to price a game at half its worth.
    You can't know a game will be a massive hit until it happens, so you can only set your price high if you are an already established franchise like The Witcher.
    Well having 257+ Steam games in my Library now I buy all my games legally, though as I am against Denuvo and the malicious way Denuvo works I really can't blame people who seek other ways to get a free 2 play game instead of paying for it.

    Yes  it's a crappy situation either way, but Developers are losing money to.

    - Pay the fees for Denuvo
    - 30% Through Steam, or other publishers.

    But developers if they wanted their own game don't even need to sale it on a platform they can make their own platform, and website / domain name really doesn't cost much.
  • sayuusayuu RarePosts: 766Member
    Lokero said:
    Nyctelios said:

    Make a good game. Sell it for a fair price. People will give you money.
    I think this is an issue for developers, though.

    The notion of "fair price" to the consumer-base is ridiculously low for PC games these days.  Anything over $20-30 for a non-AAA game gets ripped apart for being "overpriced".
    This can lead to more people convincing themselves they are justified in pirating a game. "Well it should have been 10-20 bucks and I would have bought it, but 50? I'll just torrent it"

    People have developed a spoiled expectation now that PC games should be practically free. 
    It's really a crappy situation for game developers, when you consider the amount of time and cost that can go into making a game.

    Sure, you can still make a profit if you have a big hit game, but imagine how much money is lost by having to price a game at half its worth.
    You can't know a game will be a massive hit until it happens, so you can only set your price high if you are an already established franchise like The Witcher.
    piracy has no meaningful impact on video game sales.


    Ginaz
  • cochscochs UncommonPosts: 92Member
    DRM or games as a service is here to stay until countries like China which are a bigger and bigger part of the market clean up their act.  The argument that piracy doesn't hurt sales holds up fairly well in the west, not so much in China. 

    Indie games it's less of an issue.

    One of the reasons Aqua Man was released in China first is piracy. 

    Games as a service solves the problem better then DRM.  Don't blame games as a service because some (well most) studios do it badly.   Blame the specific studios.  There is no reason for studios to have branded logins.  Nobody needs another login to manage.  Done right you should be able to just one click authenticate against a third party you already have an account with like google or a selection of social networks. 

    As an indie I'm completely on board with games as a service.  But I'm also determined to make it non intrusive and not get in the way, which is not hard to do. It's all the other things studios want to use it to force on you that is the real problem.  

    Ginaz
  • BananableBananable UncommonPosts: 194Member
    edited December 2018
    I dont hate it. But all those lies are really pissing me off.

    First of all. It has nothing to do about piracy. Its just a monopoly. You cant buy MMO its not a game, its product that they let you rent. They control everything. (Yeah, yeah even those almighty cheaters is a myth too, cause its profitabe). (I meant seriously : "I got banned in GTA, because some cheater gave me money." Is it really that hard to make it so you can loot money only from your friends? Not to mention that the game suppose to be not client, but server based. Ive seen how fast devs patch those exploits in f2p games, why these BIG companies cant? Because they dont want to).
    Now they want to control everything in SINGLE PLAYER games too. They put all those VIRUSES - 
    ANTICHEAT, DENUVO, RED SHELL (and who knows what else).
    Ive been playing mmo, so i missed out alot of BS what happened. About 2 years ago i quit GW2 and MHO was shut down, so i didnt have anything to play and i was super bored.
    My brother likes SP games, he suggested to try some of his games on steam. I tried, and i was shocked. THEY ARE SO BORING! And insanely overpriced. How can small game that can be completed in (10hrs) one day can cost so much?! Plus cut in bazillion DLCs.
    And now they add MACROTRANSACTIONS. Devs add MMO features to the SP games. Like (empty) open world, stupid repetitive side quests, farm, grind, loot boxes. And ofcourse if you want do it faster you can buy booster for real money. 
    PAY FOR GAME.
    PAY FOR DLC (season pass).
    PAY FOR EXTRA STUFF.
    And thats their excuse. PIRACY, blame mythical pirates.
    But those games are still look like for lil kids. They have no ideas, they dont even optimize games anymore, they release them hundreds every month and expect people have not only money, but time to play. Even those games are look like the same. 
    Seriously wtf is AAA? Another myth. All those games look like outdated indi. They made up all this BS because devs are lazy and publishers are greedy.   

    All games that was release this year already have 50% (or more) off. THATS SCAM!!!! (Even i bought summerset and its already 50% off).

    Seriuosly they say they need DENUVO because they need good sales in the first month.
    And on second month they do 50% off. LOLZ. I dont get how people cant see that its pure monopoly, because its not about getting the game for free. Its because theres only ONE place where you can get it and only ONE (crazy) price that they put on it.

    Crew 2 was release in june. Afaik without multiplayer. WTF? (There was beta so i played it, for about 20mins, heh. Its just awfull, not only i woudnt pay that much for racing game. But its because i played better racing games like about 12 years ago.) My brother has crew 1. (he got it for free)So i decided to check it out. Wow, crew 2 is worse thatn first one. It looks like they didnt even bother with story, they just did same BS like in Watch dogs 2 -  you do stunts for twitch, and get follwers. I feel like its for 10-12 years old.

    Then they did 45% off (in oct). After that there was free weekend i think. Then 60% off, and now its 67%.
    Seriously?! I dont undrstand that preorder thing (buy game now before it even released and then wait for all dlc came out....like a year, when game already be on sale), but this is even worse.

    Middle-earth: Shadow of War Gold Edition/Defenitive edition. Not only crazy price scam, but also they tried loot boxes.

    FINAL FANTASY XV. Release in march. 33% off in april and 50% in jun. And they end up canceling DLC. 

    I bought Sims city (5) on release (physical copy). I think that when it all started with control. This game required always intrenet connection. Didnt worked out. Issues was so big so they offered free game. But even after that they said "its impossible to make offline mode". Look what happened. LIES they always LIE! Because that game was BORING and they knew that, so they tried to pull "its fun with others" excuse. 
    And now they do that AGAIN with Anthem. LOLZ. (because denuvo didnt work).
    ( My brother bought MEA on black friday.)
    Same thing did Konami with MGS Survive. But its even worse, because theres no content at all. Its should be f2p multiplayer tower defence. Because thats all what that game has. All story is about this BS, but it force you to do it ALONE. And theres nothing to survive, its just anime/VN story.

    Thats why i dont have any hopes for F76. And im kinda worry about TESO. I hope its not going f2p in 2019.
    Another example - I have D3 and all expacks. (Bought all on release, D3 and ROS physical). It wasnt pirated - look what happened. They tried to make casino with real money (like steam does atm) didnt worked out. They milked DEAD game by selling it on consoles (switch, really? Like skyrim :D). And now they just spit on fans, they treat em like slaves. Not only they demand for people to play on phones now, but they demand to obey (dont even listen). They always blame pirates as excuse to their laziness and greed. But if thats impossible, they blame players (fans).
    And most important , all those SP games that you buy  on steam dont even belong to you, but valve.

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