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So, survival games...bleh

KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,998
Long ago and far way, I played what I believe was one of the earlier survival MMO’s, was called Xyson, which was recommended to me by someone here.

I recall when playing being annoyed by the game play which consisted of me being dropped in the world naked and afraid, and having to craft literally everything from the ground up like some sort of prehistoric man, though there were the ashes of civilization to use for parts.

I did not like the game, I found myself spending all of my time trying to hunt food, make containers to store water in, create weapons and clothing, and dodge people ganking me.  

Fast forward to the present day, and I play my first “survival” game since then, Fallout 76.  Yes, I know people said it was “survival” lights, but that was one big appeal, I’m not interested in rebuilding civilization from the ground up as in Xyson, so I thought I’d be good.

So while it’s great I can pretty easily find serviceable weapons/armor everywhere, it still has one big “flaw” IMO, I spend much of my time gathering/hunting foods, cleaning and storing water, and curing myself of various ailments and afflictions.  

I find it pretty hateful that I’m always dying of thirst, starving, trying to find enough rad away to clear my radiation poisoning, etc, surprised I don’t have to find the time to receive myself every hour.....just like in real life.... (getting old sucks). 

I’m only level 17, I haven’t learned whatever secrets others have which have them already like level 126 or more.  I have had to devote fare more perk choices (6 or 7 at least) than I care to at this point to get a couple ranks of lead belly, cannibal, and slow metabolism etc just to try and reduce the time spent on “bodily functions” rather than exploring the world and killing stuff. 

Fallout 4 was nothing like this, I never had to eat or drink anything, chems were purely optional and I rarely took them as I “don’t do drugs”.  :)

So, I have to ask, who really finds this part of survival games “fun?”  People have said they often thought survival games were what MMORPGS should have become, but I have to disagree.

It reminds me of playing the early RPG’s, one reason I did not care for the early Ultima series vs Might and Magic or some others is you always had to “feed” your characters, at an annoying rate IMO.  

So time for a poll, who really enjoys this mechanic, or are you more like me and could do without even the level Fallout 76 uses?


"See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






How much should actual survival should be incorporated into a Surivial MMO?
  1. Do you enjoy the “survival” mechanics in Survival games, basic gathering, crafting, eating, drinking54 votes
    1. Hell yes, realism is what I live for, can’t wait for a game with pooh mechanics to come out.
        1.85%
    2. I enjoy survival mechanics and have no issue with them being a core pillar of the design
      18.52%
    3. They are OK, I don’t mind if they are included but they should be balanced vs other MMO mechanics
      22.22%
    4. Not so much, I’d rather they take more of a back seat to other forms of gameplay
      24.07%
    5. Not at all, who came up with this stupid idea, did Conan ever take time to craft new underwear?
      24.07%
    6. I’ve never played a survival game so not really sure
        3.70%
    7. Here, hold my beer, and just show me the results
        5.56%
MadFrenchieAsheramViper482[Deleted User]YashaXConstantineMerusdelete5230Scotbigtime102
«134

Comments

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,966
    Variations on a pretty narrow theme.  There's a reason they took them out of a lot of MMO's and just use food and potions for buffs.  I have had fun with a few of them, usually the ones that have some sort of story that goes along with it rather then just throwing everyone into a sandbox and letting them imagineer their own content.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,683
    Star Wars Galaxies was almost a survival game. You had wounds and fullness from drink and food, tiredness form running ect ect. I thought that was going to be the standard in MMOs when I first started playing it, but nope. Honestly that's the only level of survivalness I can stand. Still thinking of checking out Atlas though.
    ZoeMcCloskeyOctagon7711[Deleted User]bartoni33
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,793
    My Skyrim is fully modded for realism and immersion - which means cold, hunger, heat, thirst, ambiance sound rework and so on.

    It completely changes the game.

    I have to chose between wearing an armor set which will give me protection in combat or wearing an fur armor to protect me from the weather.

    And, of course I could mod the weight limit, keep all those things and just switch one for another - but I won't because I actually enjoy the game that way.

    It made me realize, as an veteran RPG player, how much of the survival side of the RPG we tend to ignore, which in my opinion is a mistake: I started a playthrough using Alternate Start (a mod which makes you chose new starter locations - with new starter story - besides the standard caravan being decapitaded one) and spawned as a Inn worker in Dawnstar. The harsh winterscape made me work my way out of there, literally. I had to work, hunt, skin leather, sell meat... And when I reached enough resources to leave without dying of cold, when I had my first fur cape, oh man, I felt so realized!! It really felt like and achievement! Like I built my way into an adventure! Like I conquered the world.

    It was really amazing.

    I'm almost 30 on FO76 and never had to worry about hunger or anything, really. But I think that's because I played FO4 and Skyrim on "survival", so managing food and healing items is natural for me. My hunger bar never reached half. And I don't have problems with weight. 

    I can see how it can be cumbersome for people who don't seek said experience, but I think people should be open to experience it the way it was meant to be experienced: To hunt an animal and say "sweet" when you get meat. "This will feed me until I reach the next town" I get myself thinking while looking at the map.

    I feel that I'm really there. And the level design now makes a whole lot of difference where going around a cliff can mean to have not enough water for the journey.

    Some games, like Subnautica, offers a "survival free" mode, where you just explore, without hunger or sickness. It's a way to enjoy it if you are not into it.


    But I am. Oh, boy I'm sure am.
    KyleranH0urg1assVermillion_RaventhalCayleraDibdabsMyrdynnShazPur
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; EvE Online

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Member UncommonPosts: 1,372
    Tiller said:
    Star Wars Galaxies was almost a survival game. You had wounds and fullness from drink and food, tiredness form running ect ect. I thought that was going to be the standard in MMOs when I first started playing it, but nope. Honestly that's the only level of survivalness I can stand. Still thinking of checking out Atlas though.
    Also liked that you had to go to different people for different types of wounds.  Though they could have added a Psychiatrist and/or Psychologist class to heal mind wounds also instead of just having to go watch exotic Dancers or listen to music.
    KyleranRueTheWhirl

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited December 2018
    I just noticed you have a quote from Royce da 5'9" in your signature.  Lmao. :D

    I don't mind them in very specific circumstances.  I enjoyed them, generally, in Kingdom Come: Deliverance, because it took a lot of ignoring them to suffer from detrimental effects, and merely putting a small bit of effort into meeting your needs for sleep, food, water, and cleanliness often yielded buffs.

    Some found it to be so "survival-lite" as to be worthless, but I really enjoyed how they added it in a way that complimented the core experience instead of usurping it.
    NycteliosKyleranYashaX

    image
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,793
    I just noticed you have a quote from Royce da 5'9" in your signature.  Lmao. :D

    I don't mind them in very specific circumstances.  I enjoyed them, generally, in Kingdom Come: Deliverance, because it took a lot of ignoring them to suffer from detrimental effects, and merely putting a small bit of effort into meeting your needs for sleep, food, water, and cleanliness often yielded buffs.

    Some found it to be so "survival-lite" as to be worthless, but I really enjoyed how they added it in a way that complimented the core experience instead of usurping it.
    KCD is a really good example of how "survival" elements can help to increase the story telling by enhancing points of a certain historic period. Absolutely love that game design (yes, including the save system).
    MadFrenchieYashaX
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    Current playing: 
    Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Shadowbringers; EvE Online

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,998
    I just noticed you have a quote from Royce da 5'9" in your signature.  Lmao. :D


    Hey, when playing on DAOC freeshard Uthgard a few years back my friends and I had an alt guild in Hibernia called "Straight Out of Conla"

    Maybe we'll resurrect it on the new shard next month.
    MadFrenchiebcbully

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 1,097
    Kyleran said:
    Long ago and far way, I played what I believe was one of the earlier survival MMO’s, was called Xyson, which was recommended to me by someone here.

    I recall when playing being annoyed by the game play which consisted of me being dropped in the world naked and afraid, and having to craft literally everything from the ground up like some sort of prehistoric man, though there were the ashes of civilization to use for parts.

    I did not like the game, I found myself spending all of my time trying to hunt food, make containers to store water in, create weapons and clothing, and dodge people ganking me.  

    Fast forward to the present day, and I play my first “survival” game since then, Fallout 76.  Yes, I know people said it was “survival” lights, but that was one big appeal, I’m not interested in rebuilding civilization from the ground up as in Xyson, so I thought I’d be good.

    So while it’s great I can pretty easily find serviceable weapons/armor everywhere, it still has one big “flaw” IMO, I spend much of my time gathering/hunting foods, cleaning and storing water, and curing myself of various ailments and afflictions.  

    I find it pretty hateful that I’m always dying of thirst, starving, trying to find enough rad away to clear my radiation poisoning, etc, surprised I don’t have to find the time to receive myself every hour.....just like in real life.... (getting old sucks). 

    I’m only level 17, I haven’t learned whatever secrets others have which have them already like level 126 or more.  I have had to devote fare more perk choices (6 or 7 at least) than I care to at this point to get a couple ranks of lead belly, cannibal, and slow metabolism etc just to try and reduce the time spent on “bodily functions” rather than exploring the world and killing stuff. 

    Fallout 4 was nothing like this, I never had to eat or drink anything, chems were purely optional and I rarely took them as I “don’t do drugs”.  :)

    So, I have to ask, who really finds this part of survival games “fun?”  People have said they often thought survival games were what MMORPGS should have become, but I have to disagree.

    It reminds me of playing the early RPG’s, one reason I did not care for the early Ultima series vs Might and Magic or some others is you always had to “feed” your characters, at an annoying rate IMO.  

    So time for a poll, who really enjoys this mechanic, or are you more like me and could do without even the level Fallout 76 uses?


    I have to agree. I voted "who came up with this stupid idea".
    Thought I have played Conan Exiles and No Man's Sky, the survival part fades out pretty quickly in both games. NMS on normal mode anyway. They start off pretty harsh, then it just becomes a trivial annoyance, so it might as well just be automated at that point. Maybe if the consumption part was automatic it would be better. It's hard to make a survival game that has combat unless none of the things you are fighting are in any way edible. I think survival mechanics could be feasible, but just like so many other parts of games, it's just down to bad design.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,966
    Tiller said:
    Star Wars Galaxies was almost a survival game. You had wounds and fullness from drink and food, tiredness form running ect ect. I thought that was going to be the standard in MMOs when I first started playing it, but nope. Honestly that's the only level of survivalness I can stand. Still thinking of checking out Atlas though.
    Also liked that you had to go to different people for different types of wounds.  Though they could have added a Psychiatrist and/or Psychologist class to heal mind wounds also instead of just having to go watch exotic Dancers or listen to music.
    A Dev once said he wanted to make 'writer' a profession at first.  That would have been interesting.
    ZoeMcCloskey

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,089
    edited December 2018
    I think Subnautica did this very well.  At the beginning you need to do these things until they are replaced with a simpler process. . then you need to do find other things.  There was a little while where I was bothered by having to catch fish etc. for water but it ended just before it got in the way of the gameplay.

    Still free on Epic Games I think :)

    I started Skyrim with all of that turned on and it is much more immersive. . less fun but more of an alternate experience world sim.

    EDIT:  The game also lets you chose to not have hunger and thirst.

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,966
    Tiller said:
    Star Wars Galaxies was almost a survival game. You had wounds and fullness from drink and food, tiredness form running ect ect. I thought that was going to be the standard in MMOs when I first started playing it, but nope. Honestly that's the only level of survivalness I can stand. Still thinking of checking out Atlas though.
    Also liked that you had to go to different people for different types of wounds.  Though they could have added a Psychiatrist and/or Psychologist class to heal mind wounds also instead of just having to go watch exotic Dancers or listen to music.
    Also Project Gorgon has a skill line like Psychologist.  One skill is 'Tell me about your mother' which hits for a lot hit-points and it seems like a pretty powerful skill line in general.
    ZoeMcCloskey

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Crafting, gathering and building are good features. Drinking water, and eating every 5 minutes is kinda goofy especially if that's the focus.

    I still say "survival" isn't meant to be a standalone game style, it's supposed to be a feature of a bigger overarching offering.
    Octagon7711iixviiiixYashaXLokeroKyleranCayleraAlBQuirky
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

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  • JakdstripperJakdstripper Member RarePosts: 2,408
    most mmo just do the survival part as an afterthought. an extra bit of fluff just to please those that like survival stuff. it's not a main feature and rarely is it even well thought out or implemented. this is why it ends up feeling superfluous or just annoying. 

    however games focused on survival can be very fun if played with that purpose in mind. 

    take Dayz (original mod) for example. i loved it as a pure survival game. all the food/water you desperately required was in towns, and so were the zombies. people were really far and few between, and most of the game was simply....staying alive as long as you could. that was the challenge: not die. since that was the intent of the game, it worked perfectly, but i never thought of it as an mmo. as a matter of fact, once the zombies were nerfed into the ground and you could just run around collecting everything and never worry about the slow zombies the game completely lost all appeal to me. the challenge was gone. it was too easy to stay alive and the whole point of the game got moot. 

     

     


    Octagon7711
  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    TL;DR - To sum it up. I find survival games to be 60% insipidly pedantic, 40% mercifully intriguing and 100% avoidable without any lingering feeling that I'm missing anything important in gaming.

    Nearly all of my friends are obsessed with these games currently.  When I say friends, I mean my gaming buddies that I've been playing EVE, AoC and other games with for years.

    It started with Conan Exiles, which I missed playing with them because I was moving across country and getting started in a new job.  But by the time I had time to play games again, they had moved to RUST.  So being a loyal gaming compatriot, I took the plunge.

    At first, it wasn't so bad.  I really didn't care for the naked and afraid premise, but thankfully because my friends are more hardcore gamers than me, I only had to run a short distance to have them hand me gear.

    So then I spent every night, most of the night scavenging for scrap, recycling the scrap, sorting the scrap into the correct bins back at the base, and chasing down air drops for occasionally good loot.  But that was it.  Night after night after night of scavenging, recycling, sorting, and chasing.

    They loved it.  They're *still loving it six months later*, but I gave up after a month and went back to EVE for a while, and now I'm playing through every race in Warhammer Total War 2 while I wait for them to get bored.  But it's not happening and I'm starting to think I'm gonna need new gaming buddies because these games just don't appeal to me.

    I lost count of how many times I would be running somewhere to do something and my vision would start flashing.  I'd look down and notice that I'm dying of thirst.  I'd yell at one of my buddies to give me some water.  One day one of them asked me "Why don't you ever have any water?" and I replied "Because frankly it's goddamn annoying and not how I want to spend my evening.  Feeding a digital body digital water so that I don't digitally die is the least appealing aspect of this game!"

    All of that being said, I do like some realism in my games.  Some.  If I shoot someone point blank in the head with a gun, I expect them to die or be incapacitated, no matter how big the bullet is.  That's how bullets in brain matter work.  They don't mix well.

    But do I want to have a reminder every few hours of play that I haven't taken a shit in a while and that burrito I ate at the last diner wasn't cooked so well, so now I have diarrhea?  No, not really.  Not at all.  I don't really want to have bodily functions and gaming mix at all unless it's something like poisoning from a poisoned weapon that's forcing me to stop and vomit or something.

    Outside of that, no no no, give me something more worthwhile to do with my gaming time than cooking shaved beef ass over and over so that I'll have something to eat while I'm actually doing the fun part of the game.

    YashaXKyleran
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 8,683
    This discussion is in obvious response to the looming EA release of ATLAS which seems to be gaining a big following already. I just looked and people are already spamming their power guilds, invites  to private servers ect. lol I hope for their sake this isn't another Dark & Light.

    For me I'm torn on this game. I like pirate games. I like open world. I hate EA and I'm not a fan of survival games, much less with other people. I wish it was just an MMO with RPG, but then again that would be too hard and expensive and take too long. Survival games like this can be thrown together in months since there is little writing involved.
    SWG Bloodfin vet
    Elder Jedi/Elder Bounty Hunter
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 3,051
    Can't believe this genre is still kicking, thought it would be a fad. I want it to die.
    [Deleted User]Scorchienhallucigenocideanemo
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,110
    So... I love survival games like Don't Starve, ARK, or Subnautica. In my opinion, there are excellent and popular examples of survival games that are genuinely great. Keep 'em coming, in my opinion.
    MadFrenchieKyleranAlBQuirky
  • AvanahAvanah Member RarePosts: 1,536
    Failout 76...You found the WORST game to compare to Survival games. "Bleh" sure does belong to FO76, but not all are created in the terrible way FO76 was.


    And you said you have not played a "Survival" Game since Ryzom? Kind of hard to give a Survival game outlook if you've only played FO76 since then.

    Just have to find your Niche. :)

    There are great ones out there.

    BeansnBread4507

    "My Fantasy is having two men at once...

    One Cooking and One Cleaning!"

    ---------------------------

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    strong and able to take on the whole world...

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  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,313
    Viper482 said:
    Can't believe this genre is still kicking, thought it would be a fad. I want it to die.
    Agree, i dont wanna chop one more tree ....
     
                I dont wanna beat on one more rock

                     or pick one more fucking berry ........

     Youve played one youve played them all
    [Deleted User]KyleranOctagon7711Viper482
  • CryomatrixCryomatrix Member EpicPosts: 2,911
    I kind of like the survival mechanism, perhaps in future games, as you progress, you have some of the banal features automated by hirelings/thralls
    Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix
    You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations. 
  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,729
    I think the OP using Fallout 76 as a bad "survival game". FO76 is a poorly implemented survival at best. Food and drink is totally unrealistic to any degree. You get hungry and thristy way too fast. You can get by without RadX but not Radaway. You really don't need to use any of the "buffing" drugs or foods.  What you do end up doing A LOT is managing inventory. So much so that it became more of an inventory management game instead of a survival game. Even with the increased inventory they just added, you still have to overly manage your inventory. Anyway, I like FO76 but I don't see it as a survival game.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,380
    I know a lot of people here are saying that FO76 is a bad survival game.  Just for reference, so that I can compare which ones I've played with which ones you think are good, what are the good ones in order of superiority?


  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,695
    What a well-written post, and people should learn that's how one should make a poll. You managed to help me understand how I feel about Survivals personally - well done Ky.

    I'm also going to take this opportunity to announce that I am adopting you as my virtual father. I understand it is quite an honor for you, but I'm sure you are worthy of this position! ;)
    Kyleran
    Constantine, The Console Poster

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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,470
    I do think the survival MMO can be good, but it hasnt been done right...First off, they always feel it has to be PVP...Second too many incorporate eating and frinking and that just isnt fun....If I have to spend half my playing time finding food and drink so I dont die, then that isnt a fun mechanic.
    KyleranOctagon7711AlBQuirkyH0urg1ass
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,267
    "I enjoy survival mechanics and have no issue with them being a core pillar of the design"
    AlBQuirky



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