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Bethesda: I am worried...

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  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,733
    They should move to something like the Crytek engine.

    Seriously.  If CIG can actually get it working for SC with online components, I don't see why Bethesda couldn't fit a Fallout 4-style singleplayer title there and maintain acceptable performance.
    You really want to compare what CIG has against what Bethesda has engine wise? CIG is not using Crytek engine anymore by the way. They are using Lumberjack. Regardless, while the graphics in Star Citizen look great, they have major issues with a LOT of things right now. Far more then FO76. Granted, Star Citizen is still in alpha but I would never use it to compare against any game.

    Gdemami

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    edited November 2018
    Sovrath said:

    1) The Engine is 20 years old

    See my "above." again if that guy is correct then 20 year old code has been taken out.

    The Engine has been 'forked' (that's a technical term).
    If it's forked the core is still there.
    The core architecture is Gamebryo, 90% is added by Bethesda.
    The core though is what chokes the Engine performance wise. But the bugs are all Bethesda.
    It's known that there is a limit to how much you can update an Engine, we don't need a developers to confirm that. 20 years seems a long time.

    Sovrath said:


    2) Every Bethesda game has been released with tons of bugs

    Is that the engine or is that the developers?

    I don't get this distinction.
    The engine is now developed by Bethesda developers, it's their engine now.
    It's been their own engine for ages.
    I don't blame today developers though, because I believe the engine is full of dead code accumulated throughout the years, it's almost impossible to clean now.
    That's why I am suggesting to get rid of it altogether.

    Sovrath said:

    3) Most of those bugs are recurring in every game

    That might not be the engine so much as them prioritizing some things over other things.
    I also don't get this one. The solutions are already there (to improve it not to fix it for good).
    The bugs are pretty much the same every time.
    Modders fix it client side, but Bethesda never do the same with the actual engine. The fixes are known and available, but they are never bothered to port them to the actual game, or even better, implement it to the actual engine which they will use for the next game.
    Some of the Mod fixes come just few weeks after launch because they are just modifications from previous games.
    Modders are just upgrading their old Mods to fit the new game. This should be a give away.

    Anyway would be nice to have a Coder (not just any developer), to chip in.
    We can learn a thing or two for sure.

    PS: I am not talking about gameplay bugs, like missing NPCs, broken quests or generic visual glitches, those aren't necessarily the Engine fault (though some might).
    I am talking about core bugs, like memory leaks, stuttering, low FPS, frequent crashes in certain areas, the awful physics, and so on so forth.
    Gdemami
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Gruug said:
    They should move to something like the Crytek engine.

    Seriously.  If CIG can actually get it working for SC with online components, I don't see why Bethesda couldn't fit a Fallout 4-style singleplayer title there and maintain acceptable performance.
    You really want to compare what CIG has against what Bethesda has engine wise? CIG is not using Crytek engine anymore by the way. They are using Lumberjack. Regardless, while the graphics in Star Citizen look great, they have major issues with a LOT of things right now. Far more then FO76. Granted, Star Citizen is still in alpha but I would never use it to compare against any game.

    Fair enough.  Consider that CIG is also presumably building a much more resource intensive game in general than I would assume a Fallout would be.

    Lumberyard is basically a modded Crytek for online usage.

    However, I have a feeling Bethesda would rather have another engine of their own than contract, anyways.

    image
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115


    However, I have a feeling Bethesda would rather have another engine of their own than contract, anyways.

    Zenimax owns ID.
    ID has a beautiful FPS Engine called ID Tech 4.
    They could start building on that.

    EA did the same by 'borrowing' the Frostbite Engine from Dice, which is now used as a base for most EA games.
    MadFrenchieGdemami
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,614
    TEKK3N said:
    Sovrath said:

    1) The Engine is 20 years old

    See my "above." again if that guy is correct then 20 year old code has been taken out.

    The Engine has been 'forked' (that's a technical term).


    Sovrath said:


    2) Every Bethesda game has been released with tons of bugs

    Is that the engine or is that the developers?

    I don't get this distinction.

    Sovrath said:

    3) Most of those bugs are recurring in every game

    That might not be the engine so much as them prioritizing some things over other things.
    I also don't get this one. The solutions are already there (to improve it not to fix it for good).

    just cut some things out for space.

    Are you a software developer and do you know for a fact that this engine being "forked" means that it still has old code? And can you point to why this old code is doing what it is doing?

    As far as the distinctions ...

    I used to work for a software company (actually, 2 companies) and they would, after the fact, have new GUI's or new code or new "something" but they would never add it to their work. I asked why and they said that it was because it wasn't in the original or spec.

    That's probably why Bethesda doesn't completely fix all their bugs.

    Though, I do remember an interview with Todd Howard where he said that they don't take out bugs that they think are funny unless they have to.

    So, they start a new game and start planning. They plan out the development. They might fix/change things in their engine that they need to change but they might let things slide because it's not a priority.


  • AnnwynAnnwyn Member UncommonPosts: 2,854
    TEKK3N said:

    One of those bugs everyone can see in every Bethesda game is the physics.
    If you bump into a plate in Morrowind, it will start flying around every corner of the room uncontrollably, same happens in all Bethesda games up until 76.
    But that's just the tip of the iceberg, the list of old bugs is endless.

    I'll only address this part, but keep in mind that it's pretty difficult to avoid physics/collision issues in video games, and that whatever engine Bethesda might use, it's still possible to run into these issues.

    Witcher 3 and Far Cry 5 for example both have these issues. Especially around the launch of FC5, it was impossible not to stumble onto videos online displaying these glitches, with trucks going out of control, much like a plate in an Elder Scroll game, and killing players in their unpredictable paths (because trucks > humans).

    I'm not saying this to defend Bethesda or F76 (which I haven't played), but there's a lot of accusation being thrown around at the Creation Engine being the issue, as if the developers have not actually worked on bringing improvements to their own modified version of their engine, but many (if not the majority) of these bugs are not engine-dependent and can occur in other engines as well.
    SovrathGdemami
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,175
    TEKK3N said:
    A MOD is a patch on your client, not on the actual engine.
    And as I explained my previous post above, it's a patch (a plaster), not a fix.
    If you stop using the MOD you can still play the original version, because MODs are not actually modifying the official Engine, but just patching your client.
    Modders cannot actually fix Bethesda engine.

    Because Bethesda relies so much on Mods fixes, they never been bothered to actually fix their engine.
    So all the bugs are rolled over to the next game, then the Mods 'fix' it (patch it) again in the same manner they 'fixed' the previous game.
    Rinse and repeat.

    You should really refrain from commenting on technicalities you are not versed in...your post is just a heap of nonsense...
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Sovrath said:
    TEKK3N said:

    just cut some things out for space.

    Are you a software developer and do you know for a fact that this engine being "forked" means that it still has old code? And can you point to why this old code is doing what it is doing?

    I am not a software developer, but I have friends who are, and I talk a lot with them about the subject, because I am interested in game history and development.
    So I know the basics of software development but I am not an actual expert.
    I am not claiming that what I said in the OP is what it is actually happening, but it is a possibility, according to my (limited) knowledge and what I can gather from my (extensive) experience playing Bethesda games.

    Sovrath said:


    Though, I do remember an interview with Todd Howard where he said that they don't take out bugs that they think are funny unless they have to.

    So, they start a new game and start planning. They plan out the development. They might fix/change things in their engine that they need to change but they might let things slide because it's not a priority.

    You heard that right. Todd actually jokes about being called Bugthesda and it sees it as a Trademark almost to be proud of.
    That's why I suspect that they actually never cared to polish their engine, allowing bugs to accumulate during the years, because they didn't see it as priorities.
    And the reason is because they rely on the Modders to fix the issues, which punctually happens.

    Why wasting time and effort trying to fix your stuff if there are people willing to fix it for you, for free.

    Gdemami
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,421
    Some of it may of course be an outdated engine but worse than that is their notoriously bad QC and having no desire to fix all bugs, just the ones that are game breaking. It must be a corporate "it's good enough" thing because in ESO I can tell you about several small bugs that have been in the game since 2014, that have been reported as bugs hundreds of times and are still there.

    Same for FO4 and Skyrim. There are missing texture bugs, environmental clipping and many similar non game-breaking bugs that they just don't give enough of a shit to fix. It's the opposite of taking pride in your work and wanting to perfect it.

    Contrast that with a game similar to FO4 and Skyrim done by a small team. I've been playing ELEX lately since I picked it up on a Black Friday sale. It's similar in size and scope to FO4 and Skyrim and you just do not run into those kinds of trivial bugs there. Someone at Piranha Bytes obviously does give a shit about polishing their games.   
    TEKK3N
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523
    Seems like everyone is cutting corners now a days to make development as low as possible.  I noticed the passenger door and back doors on my car have no locks for keys, wonder how much they saved by leaving that out.
    The same amount of money they saved replacing the key ignition with a start button...

    You, the consumer, however didn't save anything, you actually paid more because they didn't put in the key locks.  

    It's called marketing.

  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    edited November 2018
    Gdemami said:
    TEKK3N said:

    You should really refrain from commenting on technicalities you are not versed in...your post is just a heap of nonsense...
    I am ok with challenges, but you should elaborate.
    You should explain why it's non sense.
    I said I am not a software engineer, but I do know the basics of software development.
    If you have more knowledge on the subject, please correct me.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,590
    btdt said:
    Seems like everyone is cutting corners now a days to make development as low as possible.  I noticed the passenger door and back doors on my car have no locks for keys, wonder how much they saved by leaving that out.
    The same amount of money they saved replacing the key ignition with a start button...

    You, the consumer, however didn't save anything, you actually paid more because they didn't put in the key locks.  

    It's called marketing.

    What's cheaper? To put in a key lock. Or the electronics required now in the fob and the car.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Iselin said:
    Some of it may of course be an outdated engine but worse than that is their notoriously bad QC and having no desire to fix all bugs, just the ones that are game breaking. It must be a corporate "it's good enough" thing because in ESO I can tell you about several small bugs that have been in the game since 2014, that have been reported as bugs hundreds of times and are still there.

    Same for FO4 and Skyrim. There are missing texture bugs, environmental clipping and many similar non game-breaking bugs that they just don't give enough of a shit to fix. It's the opposite of taking pride in your work and wanting to perfect it.

    Contrast that with a game similar to FO4 and Skyrim done by a small team. I've been playing ELEX lately since I picked it up on a Black Friday sale. It's similar in size and scope to FO4 and Skyrim and you just do not run into those kinds of trivial bugs there. Someone at Piranha Bytes obviously does give a shit about polishing their games.   
    That's basically all I am trying to say.
    Bethesda relies too much on Modders to fix the stuff they cannot be bothered to fix.
    I identify the Engine as the main problem, since it is the same constant in every game released since Morrowind.
    Of course I might be wrong since I don't work for Bethesda, but I can't see any better explanation for an obvious issue everyone can see.

    And a 20 years old Engine is considered outdated by any kind of standard, whether it's actually the main reason for Bethesda bug problem or not, they should start developing the next generation.
  • AnnwynAnnwyn Member UncommonPosts: 2,854
    TEKK3N said:

    Sovrath said:


    Though, I do remember an interview with Todd Howard where he said that they don't take out bugs that they think are funny unless they have to.

    So, they start a new game and start planning. They plan out the development. They might fix/change things in their engine that they need to change but they might let things slide because it's not a priority.

    You heard that right. Todd actually jokes about being called Bugthesda and it sees it as a Trademark almost to be proud of.
    That's why I suspect that they actually never cared to polish their engine, allowing bugs to accumulate during the years, because they didn't see it as priorities.
    And the reason is because they rely on the Modders to fix the issues, which punctually happens.

    Why wasting time and effort trying to fix your stuff if there are people willing to fix it for you, for free.

    If memory serves me right, the particular bug that sparked that discussion by Todd was a bug that was discovered by a player in Skyrim, where he could place a basket over an NPC's head, and this allowed players to steal without consequences as they could not be "seen" by the NPC.

    If I'm not mistaken, and I'm really going through this by memory so it's not super accurate because I can't find the article again, one of the developers was a bit furious about this, but ultimately the team decided to leave the bug in because it was funny and not game-breaking in any way. This is more a loophole than a bug at this point as it has to be manually and intentionally caused by a player, and given that this is a single-player game, there are no consequences in allowing players to behave this way if they wish.  

    In your response, you're basically conflating these funny harmless non-game-breaking bugs with the bugs that are being seen currently in F76 or other Bethesda titles at launch (like Skyrim had issues with PS4 and save files if I'm not mistaken, which was particularly bad). They're really in 2 completely different categories.
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Annwyn said:
    TEKK3N said:
     

    In your response, you're basically conflating these funny harmless non-game-breaking bugs with the bugs that are being seen currently in F76 or other Bethesda titles at launch (like Skyrim had issues with PS4 and save files if I'm not mistaken, which was particularly bad). They're really in 2 completely different categories.
    I agree they are two different things, and probably Todd was referring to that episode.

    But joking about a 'fun' bug or exploit would be acceptable, if you fix the more serious bugs first, which is not the case.
    Usually are the Modders who fix the serious issues, and save the day for Bethesda.

    I just want Bethesda to take this bugs issue a bit more seriously in order to avoid another 76.

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Member RarePosts: 2,698
    Even modders are getting tired of it. While easy to use it is a pain for decent textures and meshes. 
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    I just remembered.

    Fallout New Vegas has been developed by Obsidian.
    They used the same modified Gamebryo Engine Bethesda used for Fallout 3.
    Guess what?
    Different Team, same bugs.
    Coincidence?
  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,103
    Sovrath said:
    TEKK3N said:



    So in conclusion.
    Bethesda cannot work with a 20 years old Engine in 2018, this is just asking for trouble, which they got with 76.
    TES is what made Bethesda, and if TES 6 performances and bugs are as bad as 76, we can say bye bye to Bethesda.
    And personally, I don't want that.
    So Todd, get your shit together, buddy.
    Is it really that it's the engine that's giving them problems or is it that they should have spent more time in development?

    I'd be more inclined to get the opinion of actual developers about their engine and whether or not it really causes issues (maybe it does)


    The engine is definitely dated.  Even with graphical overhaul mods, Fallout 4 isn't near cutting edge graphics.  It looks fine still, and can present beautiful vistas...  But it's long in the tooth.
    The engine doesn't determine the graphical capabilities of a game.
    But if the engine is crap and takes extra resources or is only designed around older dated graphics, rendering etc. . then increasing the load on the game would decrease performance?

    I don't know I am just thinking that if they tried to release a new game with awesome graphics and modern quality of life improvements . . using the Infinity Engine. . that wouldn't work.

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • AlverantAlverant Member RarePosts: 1,208
    No one needs their own engine anymore. I've played good games that used Unity. Programming now trends towards 3rd party developers coming out will good well-rounded solutions.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,099
    edited November 2018
    My only problem with Bethesda games are the faces. Likely the worst character creator outside of GTA Online.


    Post edited by Vermillion_Raventhal on
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    edited November 2018
    Considering they have the habit of implementing popular Mods in their next game (not a bad thing in principle), I am not surprised.
    The environment and lightning overhaul in 76, is taken from a popular FO4 Mod,  for example.
    But there is worse.

    As I said in a previous post, Modders recycle the Mods they used for previous games to work for the new game in order to fix the same exact bugs.
    Meaning, Bethesda never fixes the recurring bugs infesting their Engine, so those reappear inevitably in the next game, promptly quick fixed by modders.

    Gdemami
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Member EpicPosts: 6,247
    Bethesda and bugs...

    I finally get it. Bethesda is a group of entomologists (people who study bugs/insects)!

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR


  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,354
    I bump in quite some bugs during my playthrough of skyrim.  Have no problem with witcher.  
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 1,019
    I was watching one YT reviewer talk about the horrendous PC UI that a modder fixed within hours of the game's official release.

    The YT'er asked a great follow up question. If a modder could drastically improve the UI hours after release why couldn't BGS fix it within 3 years (and counting) of development.

    Gut Out!
    MadFrenchieVermillion_Raventhal

    What, me worry?

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