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Bethesda: I am worried...

TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
edited November 2018 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

TLDR version: I am worried about the outdated Engine.

As an avid Bethesda fan I love this company.
They gave me endless hours of fun with their games, from Daggerfall (my first binge gaming) to Fallout 4.
They do sandbox RPGs like no other.
I think they were, and still are, the best developer out there despite of their flaws.
It's one of the few companies that when a game is announced make me piss my pants.

So why I am worried then?
No, it's not because the 76 debacle. Shit happens.
I am over it already, even though I might make another thread explaining what went wrong.

I am not even worried about the overall quality of future games.
I don't think Howard forgot how to make beautiful, immersive, sandbox RPGs.
He produced 5 successful blockbusters in his career (not just 1 like many other so called gaming gurus).
I trust his (and his people) good judgment in game design.

No, what I am worried about is BUGthesda.
Yes, I am one of those people that over the years endured the many bugs in Bethesda games, because the games were just too good, plus the mod community fixed them.
I was obviously expecting bugs in 76, so I was ready for it (sad isn't it?).
But after 76, I am started to get a bit nervous.
Bethesda cannot keep ignoring this problem any longer.

This is not a case of simple lazyness.
The main cause of this problem is... the ENGINE. The Creation Engine.
This is a 16 years old engine, initially called Netimmerse, but it was actually a 3rd party engine called Gamebryo.
After Fallout 3, they 'forked' the Gamebryo Engine and called it Creation Engine, but the code base was still Gamebryo.

Todd Howard said many times that the the Creation Engine is a very convenient and reliable tool for Bethesda and Mod makers to create their game fast. Though I am not too sure about the 'fast' bit, it's true that modders love the engine, it is easy and convenient to use.
Having said that, that's the same Engine used to make Morrowind, 16 years ago (add at least 4 years of development).
Sure, it's updated and revisited, but even after all those years, there are the same bugs present 20 years ago.
One of those bugs everyone can see in every Bethesda game is the physics.
If you bump into a plate in Morrowind, it will start flying around every corner of the room uncontrollably, same happens in all Bethesda games up until 76.
But that's just the tip of the iceberg, the list of old bugs is endless.

Performance is another issue with the creation.
The game is just too old to process all the polygons that modern graphic requires.
In 76, frame per seconds run well below 60, even in high end PCs (I heard Xbox is pretty bad)

But what worries me the most is that they are using this Engine for Starfied and TES 6.
Keep in mind Skyrim is 7 years old, and the new chapter won't be released before 2020, so plenty of room for everything.
My question to Bethesda is:
"What the hell have you been doing for the last 7 years?" (Falllout 4 and 76 is not the correct answer)
Since they are taking their sweet time to develop TES 6, the least they could do is to create a new state of the art engine that could support both cutting edge graphics and the FPS combat style required by Bethesda games.
Maybe they could ask the support of ID Software and modify the ID Tech 4 Engine to suits Bethesda needs.
Or just create a new one from the ground up.

Whatever they do, they should not use the Creation Engine, I don't think even Bethesda coders knows exactly what's in it.
After 20 years of tweaking and upgrading there is so much dead code in it that it will be difficult, if not impossible to extirpate all the bad code and polish it properly.
Insisting on it, it's like slowly digging your own grave.

So in conclusion.
Bethesda cannot work with a 20 years old Engine in 2018, this is just asking for trouble, which they got with 76.
TES is what made Bethesda, and if TES 6 performances and bugs are as bad as 76, we can say bye bye to Bethesda.
And personally, I don't want that.
So Todd, get your shit together, buddy.
PhryAethaeryn
«13

Comments

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,603
    TEKK3N said:



    So in conclusion.
    Bethesda cannot work with a 20 years old Engine in 2018, this is just asking for trouble, which they got with 76.
    TES is what made Bethesda, and if TES 6 performances and bugs are as bad as 76, we can say bye bye to Bethesda.
    And personally, I don't want that.
    So Todd, get your shit together, buddy.
    Is it really that it's the engine that's giving them problems or is it that they should have spent more time in development?

    I'd be more inclined to get the opinion of actual developers about their engine and whether or not it really causes issues (maybe it does)


    Octagon7711AlBQuirky
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited November 2018
    They should move to something like the Crytek engine.

    Seriously.  If CIG can actually get it working for SC with online components, I don't see why Bethesda couldn't fit a Fallout 4-style singleplayer title there and maintain acceptable performance.
    GdemamiAgent_Joseph

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Sovrath said:
    TEKK3N said:



    So in conclusion.
    Bethesda cannot work with a 20 years old Engine in 2018, this is just asking for trouble, which they got with 76.
    TES is what made Bethesda, and if TES 6 performances and bugs are as bad as 76, we can say bye bye to Bethesda.
    And personally, I don't want that.
    So Todd, get your shit together, buddy.
    Is it really that it's the engine that's giving them problems or is it that they should have spent more time in development?

    I'd be more inclined to get the opinion of actual developers about their engine and whether or not it really causes issues (maybe it does)


    The engine is definitely dated.  Even with graphical overhaul mods, Fallout 4 isn't near cutting edge graphics.  It looks fine still, and can present beautiful vistas...  But it's long in the tooth.
    Aethaeryn

    image
  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,569
    Sovrath said:
    TEKK3N said:



    So in conclusion.
    Bethesda cannot work with a 20 years old Engine in 2018, this is just asking for trouble, which they got with 76.
    TES is what made Bethesda, and if TES 6 performances and bugs are as bad as 76, we can say bye bye to Bethesda.
    And personally, I don't want that.
    So Todd, get your shit together, buddy.
    Is it really that it's the engine that's giving them problems or is it that they should have spent more time in development?

    I'd be more inclined to get the opinion of actual developers about their engine and whether or not it really causes issues (maybe it does)


    The engine is definitely dated.  Even with graphical overhaul mods, Fallout 4 isn't near cutting edge graphics.  It looks fine still, and can present beautiful vistas...  But it's long in the tooth.
    The engine doesn't determine the graphical capabilities of a game.
    Phry
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,175
    The fact you can fix bugs with modding should give you a hint it is not an engine issue. Engine issues require engine fix - internal fix of the methods or w/e goes in internally.

    Not saying there cannot be engine issues but bugs you talk about are just wrong use of the tool, since game engine is just that - a tool.
    gervaise1
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited November 2018
    Sovrath said:
    TEKK3N said:



    So in conclusion.
    Bethesda cannot work with a 20 years old Engine in 2018, this is just asking for trouble, which they got with 76.
    TES is what made Bethesda, and if TES 6 performances and bugs are as bad as 76, we can say bye bye to Bethesda.
    And personally, I don't want that.
    So Todd, get your shit together, buddy.
    Is it really that it's the engine that's giving them problems or is it that they should have spent more time in development?

    I'd be more inclined to get the opinion of actual developers about their engine and whether or not it really causes issues (maybe it does)


    The engine is definitely dated.  Even with graphical overhaul mods, Fallout 4 isn't near cutting edge graphics.  It looks fine still, and can present beautiful vistas...  But it's long in the tooth.
    The engine doesn't determine the graphical capabilities of a game.
    It seems to be an issue with this engine in supporting the higher fidelity graphics though.  FO4 performs well enough, but there are still FPS dips and my PC is well in excess of recommended specs.  Whether that can be rectified in this engine by Bethesda is certainly debatable, I guess.

    image
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,175
    The engine doesn't determine the graphical capabilities of a game.
    ...of course it does.
    Phry
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Gdemami said:
    The fact you can fix bugs with modding should give you a hint it is not an engine issue. Engine issues require engine fix - internal fix of the methods or w/e goes in internally.

    Not saying there cannot be engine issues but bugs you talk about are just wrong use of the tool, since game engine is just that - a tool.
    I feel like the issue with bugs in Bethesda titles falls more to Bethesda literally leaning on their modders than an issue with the engine itself.
    TEKK3NGdemami

    image
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Sovrath said:
    TEKK3N said:

    Is it really that it's the engine that's giving them problems or is it that they should have spent more time in development?

    It's obviously a combination of both.

    With a 20 years old engine which has been tweaked, squeezed and twisted in every directions, the amount of dead code laying around is just too much and it is not  cost/time effective to try and fix it.

    I don't think they actually ever really worked on fixing the engine, they just optimized it for better graphics and added more stuff on top of it, the old 'rotten' core is still hidden somewhere down there, almost untouched, since the issues with all Bethesda games keeps repeating every time.

    Modders usually fix the bugs (that's a known fact), but they can't fix the engine, and neither do Bethesda.
    So the next game will have the same issues than the previous one.
    For a Bethesda fan, every time is a deja-vu (unfortunately).

    MadFrenchie
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    edited November 2018
    Gdemami said:
    The fact you can fix bugs with modding should give you a hint it is not an engine issue. Engine issues require engine fix - internal fix of the methods or w/e goes in internally.

    Not saying there cannot be engine issues but bugs you talk about are just wrong use of the tool, since game engine is just that - a tool.
    A MOD is a patch on your client, not on the actual engine.
    And as I explained my previous post above, it's a patch (a plaster), not a fix.
    If you stop using the MOD you can still play the original version, because MODs are not actually modifying the official Engine, but just patching your client.
    Modders cannot actually fix Bethesda engine.

    Because Bethesda relies so much on Mods fixes, they never been bothered to actually fix their engine.
    So all the bugs are rolled over to the next game, then the Mods 'fix' it (patch it) again in the same manner they 'fixed' the previous game.
    Rinse and repeat.

    Post edited by TEKK3N on
    PhryGdemami
  • GutlardGutlard Member RarePosts: 1,019
    I've dodged the FO 76 issues because I haven't played the game yet, but are games being released in worse shape than ever before lately? It seems so.

    Gut Out!

    What, me worry?

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,826
    You are????
    Think about Bethesda.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    Seems like everyone is cutting corners now a days to make development as low as possible.  I noticed the passenger door and back doors on my car have no locks for keys, wonder how much they saved by leaving that out.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,835
    I think OP that you are jade by your love for Bethesda.
    You said their games look great,i disagree,i feel they are stuck in the 90's.One of the knocks i have had with Bethesda is the same i have for most of these devs,they don't know how to make a MMO,these are all single player designs with a login screen and not much more.

    Then their single player games,i have played a few,they are ok but i never felt compelled to play any of them much past a couple weeks then i got bored.Bethesda like so many imo make systems OK but nothing ever stands as as saying,man that is really good,i want that in a game i make.

    You like Daggerfall as mentioned it is ok nothing great,Fallout however is imo a terribly over rated series,not good what so ever.
    My main point however is that this is not the engine,that would lean more towards a few things but Bethesda's problem with the Fallout series is lack of overall systems and design,they are simply making a BUDGET game to cut costs and time.

    Example in Fallout,you know what i saw a LOT of ,players reading a computer screen in the game...BORING,like not something i want to be doing when i am gaming,i am looking for a LOT more immersion and fun than that.

    They lack the MMO feel,creativity and systems,yes i have seen effort in days of past although dated now but i don't see the effort in the Fallout series.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,603
    Sovrath said:
    TEKK3N said:



    So in conclusion.
    Bethesda cannot work with a 20 years old Engine in 2018, this is just asking for trouble, which they got with 76.
    TES is what made Bethesda, and if TES 6 performances and bugs are as bad as 76, we can say bye bye to Bethesda.
    And personally, I don't want that.
    So Todd, get your shit together, buddy.
    Is it really that it's the engine that's giving them problems or is it that they should have spent more time in development?

    I'd be more inclined to get the opinion of actual developers about their engine and whether or not it really causes issues (maybe it does)


    The engine is definitely dated.  Even with graphical overhaul mods, Fallout 4 isn't near cutting edge graphics.  It looks fine still, and can present beautiful vistas...  But it's long in the tooth.
    The engine doesn't determine the graphical capabilities of a game.
    It seems to be an issue with this engine in supporting the higher fidelity graphics though.  FO4 performs well enough, but there are still FPS dips and my PC is well in excess of recommended specs.  Whether that can be rectified in this engine by Bethesda is certainly debatable, I guess.
    I suppose that goes to my point, and why it would be interesting to get a developers take on it.

    How much is the "engine" and how much is not using the engine well or not taking advantage of certain capabilities?


    MadFrenchie
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,894
    Here's a video that is "fine-ish" with most of the real engine tech that Bethesda is using.   It does do a good job at pointing out how Bethesda has earned it's culture of "Good Enough's", and does a fair job of pointing out other developers that use the same core engine tech that Bethesda does without having "Bethesda Problems".


    __________________

    Bethesda has a problem of not being special any more.   We're past the point of Publishers being happy with a game that is 20-40 hours of entertainment sold for the box price.   Publishers care about Gamers being on their product as long as possible.   And to do that they're releasing games that are more Bethesda like, and completed with more competence.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,603
    edited November 2018
    anemo said:
    Here's a video that is "fine-ish" with most of the real engine tech that Bethesda is using.   It does do a good job at pointing out how Bethesda has earned it's culture of "Good Enough's", and does a fair job of pointing out other developers that use the same core engine tech that Bethesda does without having "Bethesda Problems".


    __________________

    Bethesda has a problem of not being special any more.   We're past the point of Publishers being happy with a game that is 20-40 hours of entertainment sold for the box price.   Publishers care about Gamers being on their product as long as possible.   And to do that they're releasing games that are more Bethesda like, and completed with more competence.

    Omg, listening to this guy is a chore!

    Let's not make it seem like there are scores of Bethesda like games being released with "more competence"

    There is a sliding scale of what has gone right and wrong. Witcher 3 is a very competent game but it has it's problems.

    Red Dead Redemption 2 also seems amazing but still with its issues.

    I'll try to make it through this video but my god this guy is a dork. Sorry I realize that's a pretty negative thing to say but when someone starts talking like a robot to make a point it's a bit over the top.
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Wizardry said:
    I think OP that you are jade by your love for Bethesda.
    You said their games look great,i disagree.
    Don't know which post you read, because in this thread I never mentioned once that Bethesda games look great. They look ok.
    I said I really like their games, specifically the gameplay.

    Sovrath said:

    I suppose that goes to my point, and why it would be interesting to get a developers take on it.

    How much is the "engine" and how much is not using the engine well or not taking advantage of certain capabilities?

    That would be great to know straight out of their mouth, of course.
    There is a tiny problem; they are Bethesda employees.

    I don't think it's a case of not using the engine well.
    I think it's the case of having an engine that has its limits, being a 20 years old engine (at its core).
    Add to that they added features after features throughout the years, optimized its graphics capabilities and what not, adding bugs  each time they did so, without ever really cleaning the older code.
    There is a backlog of bugs they never took care of, which keeps getting bigger every time they release a new game.
    That explains why Bethesda games are packed of bugs at launch, and seems to be always the same as previous games.

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,603
    edited November 2018
    TEKK3N said:
    Wizardry said:
    I think OP that you are jade by your love for Bethesda.
    You said their games look great,i disagree.
    Don't know which post you read, because in this thread I never mentioned once that Bethesda games look great. They look ok.
    I said I really like their games, specifically the gameplay.

    Sovrath said:

    I suppose that goes to my point, and why it would be interesting to get a developers take on it.

    How much is the "engine" and how much is not using the engine well or not taking advantage of certain capabilities?

    That would be great to know straight out of their mouth, of course.
    There is a tiny problem; they are Bethesda employees.

    I don't think it's a case of not using the engine well.
    I think it's the case of having an engine that has its limits, being a 20 years old engine (at its core).
    Add to that they added features after features throughout the years, optimized its graphics capabilities and what not, adding bugs  each time they did so, without ever really cleaning the older code.
    There is a backlog of bugs they never took care of, which keeps getting bigger every time they release a new game.
    That explains why Bethesda games are packed of bugs at launch, and seems to be always the same as previous games.

    We have developers right on this site. We don't really need Bethesda to chime in. just people who actively work with game engines or work with "people who work with game engines" and have talked about them.

    the problem with game sites is that people know "so much" about game development but sometimes make leaps that just aren't true. Some things can be sussed out, but others really need people in the industry.
    TEKK3N
  • KabulozoKabulozo Member RarePosts: 932
    edited November 2018
    They need to use a new, real next gen engine for ES6/Starfield. And hire actual artists cappable of design characters. Their games are utterly ugly.
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    edited November 2018
    anemo said:
    Here's a video that is "fine-ish" with most of the real engine tech that Bethesda is using.   It does do a good job at pointing out how Bethesda has earned it's culture of "Good Enough's", and does a fair job of pointing out other developers that use the same core engine tech that Bethesda does without having "Bethesda Problems".


    The games made with Gamebryo that worked 'well', are 15 years old games, plus, some are MMOs, and Gamebryo was made for MMOs.

    Of course it's Bethesda which added the bugs, they are part of the problem, maybe the biggest culprits.
    That's what the thread is about after all.

    But the problem with Gamebryo (Creation Engine's dad), is that is a 20 years old engine which cannot satisfy today standard of gaming, without heavy modifications, and Bethesda squeezed already the soul out of it.
    The engine definitely ran its course.
    76  looked worse (except for the flora) and performed worse than previous games.

    I think it is time Bethesda retires it.




    Gdemami
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,603
    Kabulozo said:
    They need to use a new, real next gen engine for ES6/Starfield. And hire actual artists cappable of design characters. Their games are utterly ugly.
    While I would agree, their characters are ugly, their games aren't ugly.
  • TEKK3NTEKK3N Member RarePosts: 1,115
    Sovrath said:
    TEKK3N said:


    We have developers right on this site. We don't really need Bethesda to chime in. just people who actively work with "people who work with game engines" or people who work with game engines and have talked about them.

    the problem with game sites is that people know "so much" about game development but sometimes make leaps that just aren't true. Some things can be sussed out, but others really need people in the industry.
    I tend to agree on a general basis.
    But I doubt that other developers knows if someone else engine is plagued with bugs or not.
    The games surely are, they got to come from somewhere.
    And the Engine is the core of a game, and the same constant in each game (Developers change, the Engine is still the same).

    The are few facts that no one can't dispute:
    1) The Engine is 20 years old
    2) Every Bethesda game has been released with tons of bugs
    3) Most of those bugs are recurring in every game

    You do the mats,  I did mine.
    Maybe I am wrong, but Bethesda bugs are still there, and there must be a reason.
    This is the explanation that makes more sense to me.
  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,510
    Its just to bad that today's gamer's care more about graphics than gameplay and content.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,603
    TEKK3N said:
    Sovrath said:
    TEKK3N said:


    We have developers right on this site. We don't really need Bethesda to chime in. just people who actively work with "people who work with game engines" or people who work with game engines and have talked about them.

    the problem with game sites is that people know "so much" about game development but sometimes make leaps that just aren't true. Some things can be sussed out, but others really need people in the industry.
    I tend to agree on a general basis.
    But I doubt that other developers knows if someone else engine is plagued with bugs or not.
    The games surely are, they got to come from somewhere.
    And the Engine is the core of a game, and the same constant in each game (Developers change, the Engine is still the same).

    The are few facts that no one can't dispute:
    1) The Engine is 20 years old
    2) Every Bethesda game has been released with tons of bugs
    3) Most of those bugs are recurring in every game

    You do the mats,  I did mine.
    Maybe I am wrong, but Bethesda bugs are still there, and there must be a reason.
    This is the explanation that makes more sense to me.
    Yeah but they would know what engines actually "do" whether or not they can hinder certain types of graphics, whether or not certain things can be modified with ease over other things.

    I mean, the guy in that video goes to say that there is not one bit of gamebryo code in their current engine even if it started that way.

    Is that true? Is he just saying that? Is that from an interview? If there isn't a bit of gamebryo code in their current engine that means that whole sections can be taken out. If whole sections can be altered then it doesn't really matter if the engine is x years old because it can be completely updated/rewritten.

    your facts don't work because they are huge assumptions.

    1) The Engine is 20 years old

    See my "above." again if that guy is correct then 20 year old code has been taken out.


    2) Every Bethesda game has been released with tons of bugs

    Is that the engine or is that the developers? Additionally, with all that goes into one of their games, all the bits and more bits, maybe there are things they prioritize over other things. I know that there are misspellings of items in the creation kit. They could correct them but maybe they feel that it's not worth it.

    3) Most of those bugs are recurring in every game

    That might not be the engine so much as them prioritizing some things over other things. It's true that their physics engine is wonky but maybe to them it's "good enough" and they don't feel it's worth it given other things they have to do.

    If large bits of code can be rewritten then it stands to reason that they can rewrite the physics portion of their engine. But maybe that's a lot of work and they feel it's "ok." Or maybe that part can't be taken out.

    But if you haven't actually worked with a game engine and specifically what goes into creation the physics component then how would you know?


    Gdemami
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