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Millions never had the chance for first generation.

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  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,253
    I see a ton of posts about gameplay, mechanics, and UI. But these are not my memories of what made old school MMO's great. It was the sense of community, a living world that you missed while you were at work. I don't feel like I am missing anything in any MMO these days because they all feel like single player games to me. The community changes every time I come online because I rarely see the same person twice outside of my guilds due to megaservers and phasing crap technology. You can't make a name for yourself crafting because it has turned into something everyone can max in one day and on multiple toons so they are self-sufficient. No one player should be able to thrive in an MMORPG without interaction with the community, period. You can literally login and max level then do end game content in today's MMOs without interaction with one other player. That is where things have changed, imo.  
    bartoni33PalebaneKyleranLimnicbcbullydelete5230Aelious
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • LimnicLimnic Member RarePosts: 492
    Viper482 said:
    I see a ton of posts about gameplay, mechanics, and UI. But these are not my memories of what made old school MMO's great. It was the sense of community, a living world that you missed while you were at work. I don't feel like I am missing anything in any MMO these days because they all feel like single player games to me. The community changes every time I come online because I rarely see the same person twice outside of my guilds due to megaservers and phasing crap technology. You can't make a name for yourself crafting because it has turned into something everyone can max in one day and on multiple toons so they are self-sufficient. No one player should be able to thrive in an MMORPG without interaction with the community, period. You can literally login and max level then do end game content in today's MMOs without interaction with one other player. That is where things have changed, imo.  
    Interestingly I'd call this a design regression as well.

    Notably because it's MMOs following the classic CRPG design philosophy rather than trying to build new systems that directly cater to it being a persistent online world. So instead of community, you have a single player experience wrapped in an MMO with some matchmaking features.

    I would sorta fault the EQ MMO train for this development, as they did utilize discrete player quests to achieve stuff rather than sweeping community events. Yes, there were community events, expressly GM run, that didn't impact the overall game world.

    I would contrast that to AC again where major content changes came at the consequence of combined developer intent and community input. The direction community leaned in their reaction to the game's narrative was the direction the studio leaned in evolving the plot, which helped reciprocate that your actions as a player and a community bore weight. 

    Kind of hearkens to that old "holy grail" of gaming where an AI might eventually be advanced enough to act as a dynamic Dungeon Master. Just seems we've lost that as a pursuit to some degree and instead fell back on the closed/linear single player narratives instead of pushing that concept harder.
    KumaponPalebane
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 177
    Limnic said:
    Viper482 said:
    I see a ton of posts about gameplay, mechanics, and UI. But these are not my memories of what made old school MMO's great. It was the sense of community, a living world that you missed while you were at work. I don't feel like I am missing anything in any MMO these days because they all feel like single player games to me. The community changes every time I come online because I rarely see the same person twice outside of my guilds due to megaservers and phasing crap technology. You can't make a name for yourself crafting because it has turned into something everyone can max in one day and on multiple toons so they are self-sufficient. No one player should be able to thrive in an MMORPG without interaction with the community, period. You can literally login and max level then do end game content in today's MMOs without interaction with one other player. That is where things have changed, imo.  
    Interestingly I'd call this a design regression as well.

    Notably because it's MMOs following the classic CRPG design philosophy rather than trying to build new systems that directly cater to it being a persistent online world. So instead of community, you have a single player experience wrapped in an MMO with some matchmaking features.

    I would sorta fault the EQ MMO train for this development, as they did utilize discrete player quests to achieve stuff rather than sweeping community events. Yes, there were community events, expressly GM run, that didn't impact the overall game world.

    I would contrast that to AC again where major content changes came at the consequence of combined developer intent and community input. The direction community leaned in their reaction to the game's narrative was the direction the studio leaned in evolving the plot, which helped reciprocate that your actions as a player and a community bore weight. 

    Kind of hearkens to that old "holy grail" of gaming where an AI might eventually be advanced enough to act as a dynamic Dungeon Master. Just seems we've lost that as a pursuit to some degree and instead fell back on the closed/linear single player narratives instead of pushing that concept harder.
     Yeah the EQ style game is fine for what it is and can be a fun game if done right. The fun part depends a lot on the community which is very different from what it was in 1999. But I will hope for the best and probably try this game.
     Early on many first generation games tried different things.  For example Horizons had the players unite to fight the evil undead invading the world. In it at least early on, you could rebuild cities but you had to guard them. They planed to have weekly events run by AI but unfortunately in 2002 or so technology and/or the teams programming skills were not up to that task. Anyway we did have world events like digging a tunnel to access new areas or building a bridge to access new zones. Of course the blight or undead would attack so you end up with people defending the crafters who were building the tunnel or bridge. World events also opened up new playable races and other things. The fun thing about it was that everyone was working together.
     The game was also had lots of bugs which caused the combat to be slow and jerky and many other issues which lead to it not being a success. Was a great idea though. It might be possible to create such a game today with AI run weekly events but I don't expect to see such a game as it is too different from the norm for MMORPGs of today.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,417
    Mylan12 said:
    Limnic said:
    Viper482 said:
    I see a ton of posts about gameplay, mechanics, and UI. But these are not my memories of what made old school MMO's great. It was the sense of community, a living world that you missed while you were at work. I don't feel like I am missing anything in any MMO these days because they all feel like single player games to me. The community changes every time I come online because I rarely see the same person twice outside of my guilds due to megaservers and phasing crap technology. You can't make a name for yourself crafting because it has turned into something everyone can max in one day and on multiple toons so they are self-sufficient. No one player should be able to thrive in an MMORPG without interaction with the community, period. You can literally login and max level then do end game content in today's MMOs without interaction with one other player. That is where things have changed, imo.  
    Interestingly I'd call this a design regression as well.

    Notably because it's MMOs following the classic CRPG design philosophy rather than trying to build new systems that directly cater to it being a persistent online world. So instead of community, you have a single player experience wrapped in an MMO with some matchmaking features.

    I would sorta fault the EQ MMO train for this development, as they did utilize discrete player quests to achieve stuff rather than sweeping community events. Yes, there were community events, expressly GM run, that didn't impact the overall game world.

    I would contrast that to AC again where major content changes came at the consequence of combined developer intent and community input. The direction community leaned in their reaction to the game's narrative was the direction the studio leaned in evolving the plot, which helped reciprocate that your actions as a player and a community bore weight. 

    Kind of hearkens to that old "holy grail" of gaming where an AI might eventually be advanced enough to act as a dynamic Dungeon Master. Just seems we've lost that as a pursuit to some degree and instead fell back on the closed/linear single player narratives instead of pushing that concept harder.
     Yeah the EQ style game is fine for what it is and can be a fun game if done right. The fun part depends a lot on the community which is very different from what it was in 1999. But I will hope for the best and probably try this game.
     Early on many first generation games tried different things.  For example Horizons had the players unite to fight the evil undead invading the world. In it at least early on, you could rebuild cities but you had to guard them. They planed to have weekly events run by AI but unfortunately in 2002 or so technology and/or the teams programming skills were not up to that task. Anyway we did have world events like digging a tunnel to access new areas or building a bridge to access new zones. Of course the blight or undead would attack so you end up with people defending the crafters who were building the tunnel or bridge. World events also opened up new playable races and other things. The fun thing about it was that everyone was working together.
     The game was also had lots of bugs which caused the combat to be slow and jerky and many other issues which lead to it not being a success. Was a great idea though. It might be possible to create such a game today with AI run weekly events but I don't expect to see such a game as it is too different from the norm for MMORPGs of today.
    Like an open playground, give the kids toys and let them play as they see fit.

    Freedom, not auto generated.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,043
    Mylan12 said:
    Limnic said:
    Viper482 said:
    I see a ton of posts about gameplay, mechanics, and UI. But these are not my memories of what made old school MMO's great. It was the sense of community, a living world that you missed while you were at work. I don't feel like I am missing anything in any MMO these days because they all feel like single player games to me. The community changes every time I come online because I rarely see the same person twice outside of my guilds due to megaservers and phasing crap technology. You can't make a name for yourself crafting because it has turned into something everyone can max in one day and on multiple toons so they are self-sufficient. No one player should be able to thrive in an MMORPG without interaction with the community, period. You can literally login and max level then do end game content in today's MMOs without interaction with one other player. That is where things have changed, imo.  
    Interestingly I'd call this a design regression as well.

    Notably because it's MMOs following the classic CRPG design philosophy rather than trying to build new systems that directly cater to it being a persistent online world. So instead of community, you have a single player experience wrapped in an MMO with some matchmaking features.

    I would sorta fault the EQ MMO train for this development, as they did utilize discrete player quests to achieve stuff rather than sweeping community events. Yes, there were community events, expressly GM run, that didn't impact the overall game world.

    I would contrast that to AC again where major content changes came at the consequence of combined developer intent and community input. The direction community leaned in their reaction to the game's narrative was the direction the studio leaned in evolving the plot, which helped reciprocate that your actions as a player and a community bore weight. 

    Kind of hearkens to that old "holy grail" of gaming where an AI might eventually be advanced enough to act as a dynamic Dungeon Master. Just seems we've lost that as a pursuit to some degree and instead fell back on the closed/linear single player narratives instead of pushing that concept harder.
     Yeah the EQ style game is fine for what it is and can be a fun game if done right. The fun part depends a lot on the community which is very different from what it was in 1999. But I will hope for the best and probably try this game.
     Early on many first generation games tried different things.  For example Horizons had the players unite to fight the evil undead invading the world. In it at least early on, you could rebuild cities but you had to guard them. They planed to have weekly events run by AI but unfortunately in 2002 or so technology and/or the teams programming skills were not up to that task. Anyway we did have world events like digging a tunnel to access new areas or building a bridge to access new zones. Of course the blight or undead would attack so you end up with people defending the crafters who were building the tunnel or bridge. World events also opened up new playable races and other things. The fun thing about it was that everyone was working together.
     The game was also had lots of bugs which caused the combat to be slow and jerky and many other issues which lead to it not being a success. Was a great idea though. It might be possible to create such a game today with AI run weekly events but I don't expect to see such a game as it is too different from the norm for MMORPGs of today.
    Like an open playground, give the kids toys and let them play as they see fit.

    Freedom, not auto generated.
    Many children chose to burn insects to death with magnifying glasses, or smash bumblebees with croquet mallets .....freedom....

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • PalebanePalebane Member UncommonPosts: 3,453
    edited January 29
    Mylan12 said:
    Early on many first generation games tried different things.  For example Horizons had the players unite to fight the evil undead invading the world. In it at least early on, you could rebuild cities but you had to guard them. They planed to have weekly events run by AI but unfortunately in 2002 or so technology and/or the teams programming skills were not up to that task. Anyway we did have world events like digging a tunnel to access new areas or building a bridge to access new zones. Of course the blight or undead would attack so you end up with people defending the crafters who were building the tunnel or bridge. World events also opened up new playable races and other things. The fun thing about it was that everyone was working together.
     The game was also had lots of bugs which caused the combat to be slow and jerky and many other issues which lead to it not being a success. Was a great idea though. It might be possible to create such a game today with AI run weekly events but I don't expect to see such a game as it is too different from the norm for MMORPGs of today.
    Aw Horizons. I remember when that game was first in development promising players could play as undead, demons, angels, dragons, giants and probably a half a dozen other cool races. My very first MMO disappointment. :'(

    https://m.ign.com/articles/2003/07/26/the-races-of-horizons

    https://goo.gl/images/ZiFV1H




    Post edited by Palebane on

    Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,417
    Kyleran said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Limnic said:
    Viper482 said:
    I see a ton of posts about gameplay, mechanics, and UI. But these are not my memories of what made old school MMO's great. It was the sense of community, a living world that you missed while you were at work. I don't feel like I am missing anything in any MMO these days because they all feel like single player games to me. The community changes every time I come online because I rarely see the same person twice outside of my guilds due to megaservers and phasing crap technology. You can't make a name for yourself crafting because it has turned into something everyone can max in one day and on multiple toons so they are self-sufficient. No one player should be able to thrive in an MMORPG without interaction with the community, period. You can literally login and max level then do end game content in today's MMOs without interaction with one other player. That is where things have changed, imo.  
    Interestingly I'd call this a design regression as well.

    Notably because it's MMOs following the classic CRPG design philosophy rather than trying to build new systems that directly cater to it being a persistent online world. So instead of community, you have a single player experience wrapped in an MMO with some matchmaking features.

    I would sorta fault the EQ MMO train for this development, as they did utilize discrete player quests to achieve stuff rather than sweeping community events. Yes, there were community events, expressly GM run, that didn't impact the overall game world.

    I would contrast that to AC again where major content changes came at the consequence of combined developer intent and community input. The direction community leaned in their reaction to the game's narrative was the direction the studio leaned in evolving the plot, which helped reciprocate that your actions as a player and a community bore weight. 

    Kind of hearkens to that old "holy grail" of gaming where an AI might eventually be advanced enough to act as a dynamic Dungeon Master. Just seems we've lost that as a pursuit to some degree and instead fell back on the closed/linear single player narratives instead of pushing that concept harder.
     Yeah the EQ style game is fine for what it is and can be a fun game if done right. The fun part depends a lot on the community which is very different from what it was in 1999. But I will hope for the best and probably try this game.
     Early on many first generation games tried different things.  For example Horizons had the players unite to fight the evil undead invading the world. In it at least early on, you could rebuild cities but you had to guard them. They planed to have weekly events run by AI but unfortunately in 2002 or so technology and/or the teams programming skills were not up to that task. Anyway we did have world events like digging a tunnel to access new areas or building a bridge to access new zones. Of course the blight or undead would attack so you end up with people defending the crafters who were building the tunnel or bridge. World events also opened up new playable races and other things. The fun thing about it was that everyone was working together.
     The game was also had lots of bugs which caused the combat to be slow and jerky and many other issues which lead to it not being a success. Was a great idea though. It might be possible to create such a game today with AI run weekly events but I don't expect to see such a game as it is too different from the norm for MMORPGs of today.
    Like an open playground, give the kids toys and let them play as they see fit.

    Freedom, not auto generated.
    Many children chose to burn insects to death with magnifying glasses, or smash bumblebees with croquet mallets .....freedom....
    That's dark, would have never thought of that.
    These children are future bad ass kids and will eventually windup in juvenile court for other reasons.  Never the less life has to go on and open playground MUST remain open or freedom is taken away from all of us.

    Bad ass kids are badass, playgrounds or not.

    Freedom must go on.  mmorpg's must go on too !
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,043
    Kyleran said:
    Mylan12 said:
    Limnic said:
    Viper482 said:
    I see a ton of posts about gameplay, mechanics, and UI. But these are not my memories of what made old school MMO's great. It was the sense of community, a living world that you missed while you were at work. I don't feel like I am missing anything in any MMO these days because they all feel like single player games to me. The community changes every time I come online because I rarely see the same person twice outside of my guilds due to megaservers and phasing crap technology. You can't make a name for yourself crafting because it has turned into something everyone can max in one day and on multiple toons so they are self-sufficient. No one player should be able to thrive in an MMORPG without interaction with the community, period. You can literally login and max level then do end game content in today's MMOs without interaction with one other player. That is where things have changed, imo.  
    Interestingly I'd call this a design regression as well.

    Notably because it's MMOs following the classic CRPG design philosophy rather than trying to build new systems that directly cater to it being a persistent online world. So instead of community, you have a single player experience wrapped in an MMO with some matchmaking features.

    I would sorta fault the EQ MMO train for this development, as they did utilize discrete player quests to achieve stuff rather than sweeping community events. Yes, there were community events, expressly GM run, that didn't impact the overall game world.

    I would contrast that to AC again where major content changes came at the consequence of combined developer intent and community input. The direction community leaned in their reaction to the game's narrative was the direction the studio leaned in evolving the plot, which helped reciprocate that your actions as a player and a community bore weight. 

    Kind of hearkens to that old "holy grail" of gaming where an AI might eventually be advanced enough to act as a dynamic Dungeon Master. Just seems we've lost that as a pursuit to some degree and instead fell back on the closed/linear single player narratives instead of pushing that concept harder.
     Yeah the EQ style game is fine for what it is and can be a fun game if done right. The fun part depends a lot on the community which is very different from what it was in 1999. But I will hope for the best and probably try this game.
     Early on many first generation games tried different things.  For example Horizons had the players unite to fight the evil undead invading the world. In it at least early on, you could rebuild cities but you had to guard them. They planed to have weekly events run by AI but unfortunately in 2002 or so technology and/or the teams programming skills were not up to that task. Anyway we did have world events like digging a tunnel to access new areas or building a bridge to access new zones. Of course the blight or undead would attack so you end up with people defending the crafters who were building the tunnel or bridge. World events also opened up new playable races and other things. The fun thing about it was that everyone was working together.
     The game was also had lots of bugs which caused the combat to be slow and jerky and many other issues which lead to it not being a success. Was a great idea though. It might be possible to create such a game today with AI run weekly events but I don't expect to see such a game as it is too different from the norm for MMORPGs of today.
    Like an open playground, give the kids toys and let them play as they see fit.

    Freedom, not auto generated.
    Many children chose to burn insects to death with magnifying glasses, or smash bumblebees with croquet mallets .....freedom....
    That's dark, would have never thought of that.
    These children are future bad ass kids and will eventually windup in juvenile court for other reasons.  Never the less life has to go on and open playground MUST remain open or freedom is taken away from all of us.

    Bad ass kids are badass, playgrounds or not.

    Freedom must go on.  mmorpg's must go on too !
    Point being, children, and often adults do not behave with everyones best interest in mind which is why we supervise and punish them when they cross the line.

    Total freedom would lead to chaos, as people just cant handle such a privilege. 

    Put another way, it's why we can't have nice things.

    ;)
    delete5230mmolou

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






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