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CoE's concept in a nutshell

Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,063
From Caspien:



This really explains it.  It is all about the Kings and Nobles... everyone else is just there to add some background action.

Nobody really cares about Bob the Farmer... but you need a lot of Bob the Farmers in order to support a Robert the Bruce.

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

WellspringOctagon7711ConstantineMeruscraftseekerbcbullyYashaXGdemami
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Comments

  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    I'm thinking Prince Caspian may have also read a little Chronicles of Narina. :wink:
    --------------------------------------------
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,974
    I'm thinking Prince Caspian may have also read a little Chronicles of Narina. :wink:
    Or Game of Thrones, Dragon Riders of Pern or a host of fantasy literature. 
    Octagon7711

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member UncommonPosts: 475
    The Raymond E Fiest daughter of the empire trilogy too... 
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,063
    Kyleran said:
    I'm thinking Prince Caspian may have also read a little Chronicles of Narina. :wink:
    Or Game of Thrones, Dragon Riders of Pern or a host of fantasy literature. 
    Right... but those would make pretty good single or small multiplayer games.  Not so much 100000 per server type games.  

    Not many folks want to be Bill the guy in the Targaryen army that gets an arrow to the knee in Episode 15

    It will be interesting to see how many "Bill's" stick around when they discover that their purpose is just to give some background to the nobles playing the real game.

    I mean.. let's face it.. even Game of Thrones (TV show) lost track of their Blacksmith Gendry for a few seasons... and he was actually a King's son...
     
    MendelAnOldFartGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,063
    AnOldFart said:
    The Raymond E Fiest daughter of the empire trilogy too... 
    Somewhere along the way I lost interest in that series.   That was actually the first game (I think it was Betrayal at Krondor) where I was able to interact with the actual author during development.  It was pretty cool.

    AnOldFart

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    Perhaps they should have done it like lotro.  All the main characters are NPCs, players can only work with them and move up in the lower ranks, that gives devs good control over game play, like SWG before players could become Jedi.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,291
    Kyleran said:
    I'm thinking Prince Caspian may have also read a little Chronicles of Narina. :wink:
    Or Game of Thrones, Dragon Riders of Pern or a host of fantasy literature. 
    Right... but those would make pretty good single or small multiplayer games.  Not so much 100000 per server type games.  

    Not many folks want to be Bill the guy in the Targaryen army that gets an arrow to the knee in Episode 15

    It will be interesting to see how many "Bill's" stick around when they discover that their purpose is just to give some background to the nobles playing the real game.

    I mean.. let's face it.. even Game of Thrones (TV show) lost track of their Blacksmith Gendry for a few seasons... and he was actually a King's son...
     
    Let's not focus on the 100,000 per server thing.  They have to attract that many people to their completed game (whenever that might be) *AND* they have to have a network/server/game architecture that will support that many simultaneous characters.  Questions like that smack of harbingerism.



    Kylerancraftseeker

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,974
    Mendel said:
    Kyleran said:
    I'm thinking Prince Caspian may have also read a little Chronicles of Narina. :wink:
    Or Game of Thrones, Dragon Riders of Pern or a host of fantasy literature. 
    Right... but those would make pretty good single or small multiplayer games.  Not so much 100000 per server type games.  

    Not many folks want to be Bill the guy in the Targaryen army that gets an arrow to the knee in Episode 15

    It will be interesting to see how many "Bill's" stick around when they discover that their purpose is just to give some background to the nobles playing the real game.

    I mean.. let's face it.. even Game of Thrones (TV show) lost track of their Blacksmith Gendry for a few seasons... and he was actually a King's son...
     
    Let's not focus on the 100,000 per server thing.  They have to attract that many people to their completed game (whenever that might be) *AND* they have to have a network/server/game architecture that will support that many simultaneous characters.  Questions like that smack of harbingerism.



    I think you just created my new favorite word...
    harbingerism.....

    Someone call Oxford Dictionary, new entry for 2019 edition. 

    ;)
    Scot

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 11,763
    It is turning into the Project Entropia of the fantasy MMO genre, though still a long way to get as P2W as PE.
    KyleranGdemamianemo

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  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,629
    edited October 2018
    No one wants to be Bob the farmer (content/prey) so the Nobles (ganker/elite) can rule (get their power trip). Everyone wants to be the Noble (hero/ruler/adventurer/winner/controller); not a complaint just simple fact that all games need to deliver on.
    That is why you make Bobs npcs.
    That is also why many pvp mmos die..Those that don't and work are those that doesn't put players in Bob roles.
    [this comment is a general note, and not related to my opinion on CoE in any way. If and when there is an actual game, the hands on details will tell if it will work. So many great ideas and concepts in theory, but will it work and can they make just half of it?]
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,974
    edited October 2018
    kjempff said:
    No one wants to be Bob the farmer (content/prey) so the Nobles (ganker/elite) can rule (get their power trip). Everyone wants to be the Noble (hero/ruler/adventurer/winner/controller); not a complaint just simple fact that all games need to deliver on.
    That is why you make Bobs npcs.
    That is also why many pvp mmos die..Those that don't and work are those that doesn't put players in Bob roles.
    [this comment is a general note, and not related to my opinion on CoE in any way]
    CCP and EVE disagree with much of what you say.

    Many players are simple ( but immortal) POD pilots, munching rocks,  killing hapless NPC pirates, or building things daily, I was such for 10 years.

    Some wish to lead, so they build huge empires to rule the stars, fighting titanic battles of fame and glory.

    Room for all sorts of play styles, pirating, trade hauling, exploring etc, which a well built game should strive for.

    Not all are fit to be rulers, nor even want to be.

    The issue with COE is they are pre-selling Nobility, a first for the most part in the genre.

    Usually whales have to wait post lauch to wield their influence, but weirdly Caspian claims no advantage will be sold post launch.... a big mistake IMO.

    If one builds a P2W game they are better off embracing it fully, like Entropa does, and not try to deny  it in order to fool the plebs. 


    Gdemamidaarco

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    edited October 2018

    No one is going to be a farmer in Elyria. No one's going to be a noble in Elyria either. In fact, no one's going to be in Elyria at all.......ever.
    Nildencraftseeker
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,629
    Kyleran said:
    kjempff said:
    No one wants to be Bob the farmer (content/prey) so the Nobles (ganker/elite) can rule (get their power trip). Everyone wants to be the Noble (hero/ruler/adventurer/winner/controller); not a complaint just simple fact that all games need to deliver on.
    That is why you make Bobs npcs.
    That is also why many pvp mmos die..Those that don't and work are those that doesn't put players in Bob roles.
    [this comment is a general note, and not related to my opinion on CoE in any way]
    CCP and EVE disagree with much of what you say.

    Many players are simple ( but immortal) POD pilots, munching rocks,  killing hapless NPC pirates, or building things daily, I was such for 10 years.

    Some wish to lead, so they build huge empires to rule the stars, fighting titanic battles of fame and glory.

    Room for all sorts of play styles, pirating, trade hauling, exploring etc, which a well built game should strive for.

    Not all are fit to be rulers, nor even want to be.
    Well sort of but... 
    Not long ago (1-2 weeks) CCP had a report about player retention and behavior, especially why players leave. It turned out that exactly such a Bob and Noble system had become dominant and the main reason that Bob players left. This turned out to be such a serious problem that CCP said they considered instantly disabling that system until a lasting solution was found.
    I have little interest or knowledge about Eve so I can't remember the details, but you can find the news article here or on MoP I bet.
    So I would say Eve survives despite of such a system and not because of.

    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,974
    kjempff said:
    Kyleran said:
    kjempff said:
    No one wants to be Bob the farmer (content/prey) so the Nobles (ganker/elite) can rule (get their power trip). Everyone wants to be the Noble (hero/ruler/adventurer/winner/controller); not a complaint just simple fact that all games need to deliver on.
    That is why you make Bobs npcs.
    That is also why many pvp mmos die..Those that don't and work are those that doesn't put players in Bob roles.
    [this comment is a general note, and not related to my opinion on CoE in any way]
    CCP and EVE disagree with much of what you say.

    Many players are simple ( but immortal) POD pilots, munching rocks,  killing hapless NPC pirates, or building things daily, I was such for 10 years.

    Some wish to lead, so they build huge empires to rule the stars, fighting titanic battles of fame and glory.

    Room for all sorts of play styles, pirating, trade hauling, exploring etc, which a well built game should strive for.

    Not all are fit to be rulers, nor even want to be.
    Well sort of but... 
    Not long ago (1-2 weeks) CCP had a report about player retention and behavior, especially why players leave. It turned out that exactly such a Bob and Noble system had become dominant and the main reason that Bob players left. This turned out to be such a serious problem that CCP said they considered instantly disabling that system until a lasting solution was found.
    I have little interest or knowledge about Eve so I can't remember the details, but you can find the news article here or on MoP I bet.
    So I would say Eve survives despite of such a system and not because of.

    Specifically that related to the broken war dec mechanic which they just confirmed they plan to try and "fix" this problem.  Will be interesting to see what they come up with.

    Not really a nobility issue as most war dec groups are gankers looking for easy prey,  EVE can do well without them.


    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorrskTorrsk Member UncommonPosts: 218
    I feel like that quote has been taken out of context. But even if it hasn't, plenty of people want to be simple commoners. A ton see the pain around being a noble. Caspian has said being one is basically a part time job, with duke/king being a full time one. 

    The only real thing to be concerned about, is how much power they really give nobles. There was a thread months back, about how nobles could set punishments. To which nearly every noble within that thread, said for any punishment they would just give perma death. So if that would come to pass, kill the game off way faster than anything else.

    But yeah, there is a tread at this rate of SBS throwing everything at the whales or just plain changing things for them. Another time I wish they would just get a publisher, maybe then they wouldn't do so many stupid things.
    WellspringAnOldFartGdemami
  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    edited October 2018
    Torrsk said:
    I feel like that quote has been taken out of context. But even if it hasn't, plenty of people want to be simple commoners. A ton see the pain around being a noble. Caspian has said being one is basically a part time job, with duke/king being a full time one. 

    The only real thing to be concerned about, is how much power they really give nobles. There was a thread months back, about how nobles could set punishments. To which nearly every noble within that thread, said for any punishment they would just give perma death. So if that would come to pass, kill the game off way faster than anything else.

    But yeah, there is a tread at this rate of SBS throwing everything at the whales or just plain changing things for them. Another time I wish they would just get a publisher, maybe then they wouldn't do so many stupid things.
    I'm with you on this.

    I imagine (perhaps incorrectly) that being King will be like being guild leader. Dukes and Barons, like guild officers.

    Most players in MMORPGs just want to login and have fun and contribute to the guild, without the responsibility of a leadership role.

    But it would certainly suck being in a guild that gets dominated by another, because they have deeper IRL pocketbooks. That will get old real quick.
    Post edited by Wellspring on
    Gdemami
    --------------------------------------------
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,063
    Torrsk said:
    I feel like that quote has been taken out of context. 
    You should go read it on Discord.  It's very enlightening.

    I think the best part is actually when Caspien is explaining how he started his first game company in 2008 to make CoE... but that and I quote "I started attending GDC, the Austin Game Conference and others, but sandbox games hadn't been invented yet and crowdfunding didn't exist. I couldn't even get a callback."

    And not a single one of the fawning worshipers would even question that statement.  Please... go and look it up from around 2AM eastern time this morning.  

    Not a single person in the Discord said anything.  They all just nodded about how Sandbox games hadn't even been invented yet in 2008. And piled on with comments like:

    "-keep going- were like a bunch of kindergarten students listening to story time"
    "This is fascinating as hell" 
    "We BELIEVE in you guys."


    TorrskcraftseekerGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    Torrsk said:
    I feel like that quote has been taken out of context. But even if it hasn't, plenty of people want to be simple commoners. A ton see the pain around being a noble. Caspian has said being one is basically a part time job, with duke/king being a full time one. 

    The only real thing to be concerned about, is how much power they really give nobles. There was a thread months back, about how nobles could set punishments. To which nearly every noble within that thread, said for any punishment they would just give perma death. So if that would come to pass, kill the game off way faster than anything else.

    But yeah, there is a tread at this rate of SBS throwing everything at the whales or just plain changing things for them. Another time I wish they would just get a publisher, maybe then they wouldn't do so many stupid things.
    In order to get a publisher, they'll 1st need something worth publishing.
    craftseeker
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 2,690
    edited October 2018
    I'm fine with decision as long as being part of something would also have its own rewards. In a world of Kings and Queens, I'd prefer to be the nameless lonewolf rogue assassin. Give me that, and give all the Kingdoms to the backers. 

    But I don't think that can happen, not at least on the level I wanted it to be. This budget ain't enough for that and can only be divided among the Kings, therefore, my nameless lonewolf rogue assassin shall keep on playing games on his console! 
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
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  • TorrskTorrsk Member UncommonPosts: 218
    You should go read it on Discord.  It's very enlightening.

    I think the best part is actually when Caspien is explaining how he started his first game company in 2008 to make CoE... but that and I quote "I started attending GDC, the Austin Game Conference and others, but sandbox games hadn't been invented yet and crowdfunding didn't exist. I couldn't even get a callback."
    Yeah.... 

    Not even sure what to say there. I was really hoping you were just trolling.

    In order to get a publisher, they'll 1st need something worth publishing.
    I'm sure some point on discord they have said they got publishers interested, but wanted to change things or something. Can't really remember.
    Gdemami
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,974
    Yes, that is what was said said, but fact remains, ten years later,  still doesn't look like Caspian is getting many callbacks. 

    Build it..and perhaps they may come.
    ConstantineMerus

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • TorrskTorrsk Member UncommonPosts: 218
    Kyleran said:
    Yes, that is what was said said, but fact remains, ten years later,  still doesn't look like Caspian is getting many callbacks. 

    Build it..and perhaps they may come.
    Something I have always been concerned about, the lack of funds they would even get after it launched. Why if there was people looking to invest, what they wanted to change. It could have been something simple. Nothing was really ever said.

    So take the sparks, right now they are 25 a pop. They are only expected to cost 30 a pop at launch. Someone worked out you could die once a day and still get 3 months out of it. This is all based on a commoner of no fame. Which I could argue would be most of the playerbase. 

    Where right now any sub MMO is 15 a month. Any free ones, not sure about others, but I tend to spend at least 30-50 a month. 

    I have made posts about upping the cost of a spark. I would rather it be at least 50 a pop. If not more really. Even pvpers looking for action, shouldn't really be dying that much. Massive world, population spread out. Be somewhat more of a challenge to really die everyday. Yet naturally, people are so beyond cheap these days. Could get 5 bucks a month out of a spark, if not even more. Depending how safe the person lives. 

    For all anyone knows. Any investor comes along, likes the idea. But see they want no pay to win, no cash shop of any kind. The sparks, which could be thought as subs, are basically rock bottom prices. Almost like they aren't thinking from a business view and wanting to "help the people". While having their people, happy to throw hundreds or thousands at them now. But are cheap bastards when it comes to really paying a normal amount for a spark. 

    Sorry I'm rambling on here. TLDR: At some point something has to give. Either SBS has to change their game designs, cause really it's crazy at this rate. If all of it was made, would be a game changer. Or they let an investor in and change somethings anyway. It's doubtful they could get the funds from the community needed to stay indie.
    Gdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,063
    @Torrsk If you go back through these forums a year or two ago you will find that exact concern being discussed.  Maybe his $30 a year works with 500,000 players (or maybe not even then). But with a realistic amount of players it is highly unlikely. At the end of the day, the vast majority of money raised so far was by selling advantages (noble packages, Exposition Points, Store Items).  Heck they have even pre-sold years of game time via sparks which gives them no revenue after launch.

    I hate cash shops with a passion, but honestly the idea of selling all these advantages pre-launch and then shutting the store is even worse.  The game is designed to be a playground for the rich and famous (nobles) so the idea of throwing a switch and shutting the store at launch is just silly.

    Then dont even get get me started on the whole idea of tying your monetization to a customer pain point (death). Just think about when Seamus McCrotchface decides he wants to grief you today just for shits and giggles.  Every time he kills you he is costing you money. Sure in theory it costs him money to, but he is getting and doing what he wants with that money while preventing you from doing the same. Griefers get off today just ganking people to make them cry.  Now you add the ability to cost actual money to the victim and it’s a griefers dream.   The icing on the cake was the silly Links of Elyria Plague event where potential griefers could self-generate tons of free, throw-away accounts....




    TorrskGdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member UncommonPosts: 475
    AnOldFart said:
    The Raymond E Fiest daughter of the empire trilogy too... 
    Somewhere along the way I lost interest in that series.   That was actually the first game (I think it was Betrayal at Krondor) where I was able to interact with the actual author during development.  It was pretty cool.

    I absolutely loved the Raymond E Fiest books. 

    But I did read them all out of order lol
  • AnOldFartAnOldFart Member UncommonPosts: 475
    What really annoys me, pre kickstarter this game was sold as something totally different that what's its now become. 
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