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Apple requires proprietary software/hardware to make major repairs to iMac Pros and new MacBook Pros

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  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,631
    Ridelynn said:
    It’s all put together with glue and soldered anyway - what is left to repair?

    I can honestly see a security angle to it.

    I can’t understand Apple taking away the choice of an end user being willing to take a security risk on a 3rd party repair should they choose to.

    but given that you can’t really repair much of anything anyway - it doesn’t really make this a big deal to me. You should already realize if you are buying an Apple your repair options are limited. For me, that’s half the reason I do buy apple - so I don’t need to use those options in the first place
    Modern hardware repair tools are expensive. If I want to repair my PS4 I'll need a desoldering station. A decent one is at least $150, but more realistically $250 - $300. I bought a very basic iFixit kit for $24 and their 64 bit driver set for $30. They're prosumer quality and good enough for what I do and not as much as Wiha which is what I'd probably buy if I wanted to make money.

    There is also a learning curve to repairing these devices. It's not just something you dive into anyway, even without software locks. People buy crap stuff on eBay and try to fix it. That's how you learn opening techniques without destroying or bricking the device. It's so easy to do.

    All of the Apple users I know are professionals who use their MBPs for work. They take them to authorized Apple repair when something goes wrong.

    This was a big factor in buying a Surface Pro 4 when I replaced my wife's laptop. I've been very happy with it. Microsoft has a ways to catch up but they're improving. It would take something remarkable for me to go back to third party vendor hardware again for anything but desktops.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,652
    A lot depends on what is broken.  If a laptop motherboard is dead, then I'd recognize that I can't replace that.  But if the problem is that an SSD has failed, I should be able to fix that myself.
    OzmodanPhry
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,143
    Agreed you should be able to replace a SSD, but keep in mind Apple doesn’t use SATA or even M.2 - they use PCI directly soldered to the motherboard for storage. 

    Its very fast, but not very upgradeable.

    same thing for the CPU, for RAM, etc.

    not saying what apple is doing is right. I agree with upgradabilty. But I have also owned MBPs since the actual Titanium edition, and even for parts that aren’t upgradable or easily replaceable I have to say that I’ve not had many issues that required a repair (although upsizing a hard drive or RAM would be very nice), and no machine holds resale value like an apple for whatever reason.
    Torval
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,968
    edited October 2018
    Apple has been at war with unauthorized 3rd party repair businesses for awhile.  The way one guy explained it, there could be a single capacitor that has gone bad or a faulty connection that needs to be re-soldered. 

    Apple doesn't do that they prefer to just swap out the entire board and charge you the extra for that rather then going in and just repairing one component which would be cheaper and less money to be made from the repair.
      
    What they really want you to do is buy the latest model instead of repairing the older one.  They've taken some 3rd party businesses to court for  unauthorized repairs and also work to lockout more and more of their products from being able to be repaired by 3rd parties.

    Here's what's going on with iPhone repairs.

    Post edited by Octagon7711 on
    RenoakuAsm0deusPhry

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member EpicPosts: 3,140
    Thanks, well I am staying away from Apple Products, all this does is promote more "Android" and "Google Products" due to this, the only up-side to apple is the higher RAM, and Storage capacity compared to Android devices but this could be changed in the future.

    Also if you believe Apple doesn't spy on you and believe Google is owned by the NSA then Apple maybe the better choice but in reality that aside Right-To-Repair is great no one should have a say that a user can't repair their own products.

    https://repair.org/stand-up/
    Phry
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,343
    Never been a fan of Apple and avoid them anyways so guess it's just one more valid reason to keep avoiding the brand!
    Phry

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Renoaku said:
    Thanks, well I am staying away from Apple Products, all this does is promote more "Android" and "Google Products" due to this, the only up-side to apple is the higher RAM, and Storage capacity compared to Android devices but this could be changed in the future.

    Also if you believe Apple doesn't spy on you and believe Google is owned by the NSA then Apple maybe the better choice but in reality that aside Right-To-Repair is great no one should have a say that a user can't repair their own products.

    https://repair.org/stand-up/
    Apple is to all intents and purposes a Chinese company now, there are also a number of rumours that suggest that there are backdoors into their hardware that they are able to utilise, don't know how true it is, but it wouldn't be the first time. (Lenovo). ;)
    Octagon7711
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 29,203
    edited October 2018
    Ozmodan said:
    Sovrath said:
    cheyane said:
    Never buy apple products they are overpriced. I frequently tell my friends they are idiots for buying their phones and paying ridiculous prices for them. Told them never to buy the Mac and to always get a PC.

    They often ask me for help with their phones and I just hate having to deal with their stupid single button phones and tell them as much. All the while grumbling I do help as they are 65 and above so really no reason for them to have these expensive phones. I wonder how people are this dumb.
    Wow, you just sound like a peach. :(

    I should add that I've had an immensely better experience with every mac I've owned than my pc's.

    Still have old mac book that works beautifully which I gave to a friend.

    I could listen to other people who rant and rave (I'm sure they are just wonderful, really) because that's just who they are or listen to my own experience.

    Meanwhile the pc laptops at work are always having issues.

    I think I'll go with my own experience. Love my macs.


    I just do not get people that buy Mac computers.  The three concepts I always associate with Apple computers is overpriced, underperforming, gamer unfriendly.  That, in a nutshell, makes me wonder why anyone would even bother.  Rumors are they are moving to a proprietary chip in all their Mac products which makes their product worse in my mind.

    I actually like their phones and tablets, I use both.  It seems to me that their prospective PC buyer is more about style than what the product does.  

    A funny anecdote,  my daughter has several friends that have Apple laptops and I am always getting requests to fix one of them even though my daughter knows I won't touch them.

    I think people who like macs, well "some" as I'm sure there is a broad demographic, are people who are more interested in them as an appliance. Turn them on, they work, do your stuff, turn them off.

    I don't really care about the games stuff though I do have one or two games on my mac for when I travel. I built a gaming pc for that and I keep it very separate from my writing/creative work.

    Like I said, I have an old macbook that still works and gave it to a friend. Just added some memory, replaced the battery and it's awesome. My friend's old 2009 IMac just needed new memory and it works beautifully.

    Always loved the interface and I like how I don't have to drill down to find things.

    The extra money for something I know works and that I love the experience is a non-factor. I will be up front and say that I love good aesthetics so that fact that it looks good is a plus.

    A friend of mine just can't stand Windows so he uses Linux. I'm not about to use Linux as I have no interest with tinkering with stuff to get things to work and I'm not a fan of Windows so for my creative work I use my Mac.

    I would say that it's about user experience. If that's not a thing you can get then that's why you don't get it.

    I should add that if had a great user experience with my pc I'd predominantly use a pc. But I don't. Also, and I don't know if it's pertinent, I always pay for convenience. I always want easy, accessible, no fuss and no muss.

    TorvalOctagon7711PhaserlightRidelynn
  • KillSwitch69KillSwitch69 Member UncommonPosts: 36
    edited October 2018
    Torval said:
    Ridelynn said:
    It’s all put together with glue and soldered anyway - what is left to repair?

    I can honestly see a security angle to it.

    I can’t understand Apple taking away the choice of an end user being willing to take a security risk on a 3rd party repair should they choose to.

    but given that you can’t really repair much of anything anyway - it doesn’t really make this a big deal to me. You should already realize if you are buying an Apple your repair options are limited. For me, that’s half the reason I do buy apple - so I don’t need to use those options in the first place
    Modern hardware repair tools are expensive. If I want to repair my PS4 I'll need a desoldering station. A decent one is at least $150, but more realistically $250 - $300. I bought a very basic iFixit kit for $24 and their 64 bit driver set for $30. They're prosumer quality and good enough for what I do and not as much as Wiha which is what I'd probably buy if I wanted to make money.

    There is also a learning curve to repairing these devices. It's not just something you dive into anyway, even without software locks. People buy crap stuff on eBay and try to fix it. That's how you learn opening techniques without destroying or bricking the device. It's so easy to do.

    All of the Apple users I know are professionals who use their MBPs for work. They take them to authorized Apple repair when something goes wrong.

    This was a big factor in buying a Surface Pro 4 when I replaced my wife's laptop. I've been very happy with it. Microsoft has a ways to catch up but they're improving. It would take something remarkable for me to go back to third party vendor hardware again for anything but desktops.
    As a technician by trade, for some of us, those tools are long term investments and being given the option to be able to fix things ourselves is always a plus and the money saved overtime has more than paid for the tools. Unless you're doing really extensive repairs, a desoldering braid and a decent soldering iron is sufficient enough...a non digital Weller can be be had for under $100. Not to mention the amount of electronic waste you're reducing.
    Octagon7711MadFrenchie
  • KillSwitch69KillSwitch69 Member UncommonPosts: 36
    edited October 2018
    Grunty said:
    https://www.engadget.com/2018/10/04/t2-apple-imac-pro-macbook-pro-repair-right/

    Any Apple computer with it's T2 chip is affected by this. That currently is limited to the iMac Pro and 2018 MacBook Pro.  Only authorized Apple service departments with proprietary diagnostic software/hardware can now repair significant hardware issues.

    "According to MacRumors and shown on documents posted by Motherboard, anyone doing significant repair work on these systems will be left with a nonfunctioning system until they run the "Apple Service Toolkit 2" diagnostic software. For the MacBook Pro that includes "display assembly, logic board, top case (the keyboard, touchpad, and internal housing), and Touch ID board," and on the iMac Pro, it's the logic board or SSD."

    You'll also need another functioning computer to run the diagnostic application from.

    There goes your 'right to repair'.

    I didn't read this article, but have read about it in the past...but from what I understood, this issue involves Mac devices with active T2 chips but not dormant ones. But I mean, could be activated pretty much anytime they please.
  • RosenborgRosenborg Member UncommonPosts: 162
    Grunty said:
    https://www.engadget.com/2018/10/04/t2-apple-imac-pro-macbook-pro-repair-right/

    Any Apple computer with it's T2 chip is affected by this. That currently is limited to the iMac Pro and 2018 MacBook Pro.  Only authorized Apple service departments with proprietary diagnostic software/hardware can now repair significant hardware issues.

    "According to MacRumors and shown on documents posted by Motherboard, anyone doing significant repair work on these systems will be left with a nonfunctioning system until they run the "Apple Service Toolkit 2" diagnostic software. For the MacBook Pro that includes "display assembly, logic board, top case (the keyboard, touchpad, and internal housing), and Touch ID board," and on the iMac Pro, it's the logic board or SSD."

    You'll also need another functioning computer to run the diagnostic application from.

    There goes your 'right to repair'.

    I didn't read this article, but have read about it in the past...but from what I understood, this issue involves Mac devices with active T2 chips but not dormant ones. But I mean, could be activated pretty much anytime they please.
    Seems that the T2 chips aren't active, yet.

    https://www.engadget.com/2018/10/05/macbook-pro-imac-pro-repair-t2/

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Torval said:

    Warning incoming anecdote -

    My last phone as an iPhone 6S. The fingerprint reader on that model is also the home button. It's mechanical. Mine failed and stopped reading my fingerprint and stopped working (going to home). I brought it to the repair center, under my Apple Care plan, got a replacement iPhone 6 to use for the week while it was gone.

    Apple checked my phone for damage. If I had dunked it or mistreated it then I might have had to pay a deductible after a couple strikes ($80 at the most). Instead of repairing it they chose to replace it with a new phone instead. I got that shipped back, returned my loaner, restored my backup, and was on my way. Apple had the phone a week (a little annoying), but swapping only took about 15 minutes including restoring my data and settings. Technically, it was rather amazing to experience first hand.

    So, in the end it depends on how their users feel about the service experience over the lifetime of the device. If Apple has a plan to make their users happy over that lifetime then their users won't mind at all.

    This change likely means Apple wants to drive Apple Care service contracts which will make it more costly to own. Again, their users won't necessarily care if they deliver on the support experience. They're good at doing that so I'm not doubting them. If they stumble, then that's on them to deal with.
    and on the flip side they refuse to offer the adapter for charging the apple pen without you sending the entire unit in for service... this is literally a tiny plastic nubbin that let you connect two lightning tabs... 

    So they ask you to trust them with a really expensive tech gubbin just so they can charge you a service fee and send a 2 cent nubbin to the tech center... 

    Aint that customer service... 
    Ozmodan

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited October 2018
    Torval said:
    Ridelynn said:
    It’s all put together with glue and soldered anyway - what is left to repair?

    I can honestly see a security angle to it.

    I can’t understand Apple taking away the choice of an end user being willing to take a security risk on a 3rd party repair should they choose to.

    but given that you can’t really repair much of anything anyway - it doesn’t really make this a big deal to me. You should already realize if you are buying an Apple your repair options are limited. For me, that’s half the reason I do buy apple - so I don’t need to use those options in the first place
    Modern hardware repair tools are expensive. If I want to repair my PS4 I'll need a desoldering station. A decent one is at least $150, but more realistically $250 - $300. I bought a very basic iFixit kit for $24 and their 64 bit driver set for $30. They're prosumer quality and good enough for what I do and not as much as Wiha which is what I'd probably buy if I wanted to make money.

    There is also a learning curve to repairing these devices. It's not just something you dive into anyway, even without software locks. People buy crap stuff on eBay and try to fix it. That's how you learn opening techniques without destroying or bricking the device. It's so easy to do.

    All of the Apple users I know are professionals who use their MBPs for work. They take them to authorized Apple repair when something goes wrong.

    This was a big factor in buying a Surface Pro 4 when I replaced my wife's laptop. I've been very happy with it. Microsoft has a ways to catch up but they're improving. It would take something remarkable for me to go back to third party vendor hardware again for anything but desktops.
    As a technician by trade, for some of us, those tools are long term investments and being given the option to be able to fix things ourselves is always a plus and the money saved overtime has more than paid for the tools. Unless you're doing really extensive repairs, a desoldering braid and a decent soldering iron is sufficient enough...a non digital Weller can be be had for under $100. Not to mention the amount of electronic waste you're reducing.
    Yea, things like this have larger implications for businesses that use the products as tools for productivity than it has on your average smartphone user (everyone these days).

    This right to repair issue isn't just being revisited here, it's being revisited in multiple industries, and is riding in on the tech side ala the tractor example I gave.

    I personally feel the tech industry gets way too much power over their consumers anyways, and don't welcome any further forfeiture of rights to the producers after I've made an outright purchase of a product.  It implies purchasing a product no longer awards you ownership rights over said product, and THAT'S a dangerous wrong step in consumerism.  Ownership of property is a cornerstone of American society.
    Phaserlightlaserit

    image
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 22,652
    Torval said:
    Ridelynn said:
    It’s all put together with glue and soldered anyway - what is left to repair?

    I can honestly see a security angle to it.

    I can’t understand Apple taking away the choice of an end user being willing to take a security risk on a 3rd party repair should they choose to.

    but given that you can’t really repair much of anything anyway - it doesn’t really make this a big deal to me. You should already realize if you are buying an Apple your repair options are limited. For me, that’s half the reason I do buy apple - so I don’t need to use those options in the first place
    Modern hardware repair tools are expensive. If I want to repair my PS4 I'll need a desoldering station. A decent one is at least $150, but more realistically $250 - $300. I bought a very basic iFixit kit for $24 and their 64 bit driver set for $30. They're prosumer quality and good enough for what I do and not as much as Wiha which is what I'd probably buy if I wanted to make money.

    There is also a learning curve to repairing these devices. It's not just something you dive into anyway, even without software locks. People buy crap stuff on eBay and try to fix it. That's how you learn opening techniques without destroying or bricking the device. It's so easy to do.

    All of the Apple users I know are professionals who use their MBPs for work. They take them to authorized Apple repair when something goes wrong.

    This was a big factor in buying a Surface Pro 4 when I replaced my wife's laptop. I've been very happy with it. Microsoft has a ways to catch up but they're improving. It would take something remarkable for me to go back to third party vendor hardware again for anything but desktops.
    As a technician by trade, for some of us, those tools are long term investments and being given the option to be able to fix things ourselves is always a plus and the money saved overtime has more than paid for the tools. Unless you're doing really extensive repairs, a desoldering braid and a decent soldering iron is sufficient enough...a non digital Weller can be be had for under $100. Not to mention the amount of electronic waste you're reducing.
    Yea, things like this have larger implications for businesses that use the products as tools for productivity than it has on your average smartphone user (everyone these days).

    This right to repair issue isn't just being revisited here, it's being revisited in multiple industries, and is riding in on the tech side ala the tractor example I gave.

    I personally feel the tech industry gets way too much power over their consumers anyways, and don't welcome any further forfeiture of rights to the producers after I've made an outright purchase of a product.  It implies purchasing a product no longer awards you ownership rights over said product, and THAT'S a dangerous wrong step in consumerism.  Ownership of property is a cornerstone of American society.
    Most businesses don't want to repair their own hardware.  Rather, if you need 50 computers, you buy 55, and when one has hardware problems, you take it out of commission and replace it with one of the backups.  Then you ship it off for warranty service, and the replacement becomes one of your new backups.  The details can vary, but you really don't want to have an employee who can't work until a particular box gets repaired.

    Home users can't really do that so well, as the cost of buying two computers instead of one is far too large.
    OzmodanPhaserlight
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