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Torchlight Frontiers & Its Vision of Horizontal Progression - MMORPG.com

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,127
edited September 2018 in News & Features Discussion

imageTorchlight Frontiers & Its Vision of Horizontal Progression - MMORPG.com

The Torchlight Frontiers Reddit has a new developer post that previews the vision that Echtra has for the game with regard to horizontal progression. In general, developers are tying player progression more to gear than to levels and "how different 'Frontiers' have their own progression and end game".

Read the full story here



¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


Post edited by SBFord on
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Comments

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    So they essentially want to make what ESO is now...?
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,982
    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..
    DeathtognomesAeanderkjempff
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,026
    Scorchien said:
    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..
    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.
    AeanderThupliHarikenmetarealRicardo5802FlyByKnightStoneRosesMensuralkarionlogSiysrril
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,982
    edited September 2018
    Scorchien said:
    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..
    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.
    Its shit and makes everything trivial so whats the difference in a game like ESO 93% of the game is solobale .. Overland content is a complete joke , Dolmens are a joke/World bosses are a joke ... There is no challenge in ESO unless you are doing Vet Trials ...

      And if a game is built right from the ground up, No area (zones)  become worthless.. Check Ultima Online FF11 and FF14 for ex.. for this , all content is still challenging and useful .. For everyone ..

      The only glimmer of hope here is that they are looking more at GW2 system which still holds a solid lvl of Challenge overland ... Id still rather avoid scaling ..
      But i dont blame for going the scaling route  Financially as the are targeting the biggest demographic  in Casuals ..
     

    Post edited by Scorchien on
    DemogorgonRoinKylerankjempff
  • BlinkennBlinkenn Member UncommonPosts: 159
    Torchlight 2 was its own game, it is NOT Torchlight Frontiers
  • AeanderAeander Member LegendaryPosts: 6,709
    Scorchien said:
    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..
    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.
    I agree. Scaling is the single greatest MMO innovation of our time. 
    ThupliHarikenmetarealTorvalDemogorgonsausagemixKylerankjempff
  • SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,127
    Totally my bad on the TL2 / TLFrontiers thing. I shouldn't have posted until the migraine meds kicked in. It's corrected.
    blueturtle13itchmon


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 


  • ThupliThupli Member RarePosts: 1,318
    Looking forward to seeing how this solution works out.

    In gw2 they have specific currencies AND stat combination gear. If you want that gear stat combo, you need to run that map. Many of the gw2 maps are very much alive because of that.

    If TLF pulls this off well, it will be a welcome addition. Ian very glad to hear that they are thinking about replayability issues!
  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,585



    Scorchien said:

    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..


    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.



    I totally agree with this. Its what i hate about most rpg's. You should always be able to go back to older zones. This way devs can even add events in those older zones. This is the one thing some modern mmo's have got right.
    metarealAeanderDemogorgon
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    I think the major issue some people have with scaling (myself included) is that its not optional. You have games like FFXI/Rift that allowed you to scale yourself when you felt like it while still having that 'overpowering' feeling when you want it. Then you hit this ninja creep situation like the start of WoW:BfA where devs want to scale your mobs up with your ilvl. It just takes some people out of the game since the same stuff you've fought for x amount of hours is still as strong as you or slightly inferior. As for the 'dead' area argument, that just comes down to systems. FFXI made a decent enough attempt at making areas 'active' through things like voidwalking NMs and voidwatch. Even Rift allowed you to sync down in order to do rifts for endgame currency and other rewards.
    blueturtle13iamspamicusThaharRoinMyrdynn
  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,585
    Yeah and this is why game devs have a hard time keeping up with content. They have to hear some players screaming the tired line about end game over and over. They add new end game content and you have these player rushing through to only go online screaming they have nothing to do at end game. I don't blame devs for doing scaling now in mmo's. Some mmo players stay online more than 8 hrs a day and that's the really sad part.
  • k61977k61977 Member RarePosts: 1,377



    Scorchien said:

    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..


    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.



    I sit on the fence about this issue. I don't mind scaling as long as I can fill like I am getting stronger as I play. I don't want to play a game where I feel like I am no stronger after playing for 100 hours than I did in the first hour. Some games tune scaling to much and that feeling of getting stronger gets lost in just a gear grind which sucks.

    The biggest issue in gaming is content locust which tend to be the most vocal on forums. They rush through entire games to get to whatever the last content is to complain there is no content, when it is their playstyle that is the real issue.
    DiscipledOneiamspamicusThaharSaltyDog79HarikenJeroKaneRoin
  • RasereiRaserei Member UncommonPosts: 1,126
    MMORPGs and ARPGs in general need to revolutionize "progression". And I think they can learn a lot from playing a few sandbox games and see how "just playing" the game feels great rather than the game playing you.

    For example, Acts 1-5 in Path of Exile or the equivilent in a MMORPG, Elwynn Forest in WoW are COMPLETELY useless at "Max level"..... So why do they exist? In sandbox games, or I should say, well-made sandbox games, that doesn't happen. The ENTIRE game is a sandbox meaning, you go out and play and farm whatever you want.

    So for Torchlight Frontiers, I would ask yourself.....

    1.) What areas in the game are ever useless? If you have an answer, then I must ask, why waste the dev time to create them? Maximize the entire game effort by creating a WHOLE game experience where every zone / monster is valuable in some way.

    2.) Are there "end game items" ? This is a very difficult topic to make fun... One of the few games that got loot right was Asherons Call... It was an endless grind.... Games like WoW dont feel fun once you get "the best" gear... It doesnt work for longevity.... Please make a loot system that supports longevity in a fun way.
  • DiscipledOneDiscipledOne Member UncommonPosts: 103
    edited September 2018

    k61977 said:







    Scorchien said:


    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..




    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.






    I sit on the fence about this issue. I don't mind scaling as long as I can fill like I am getting stronger as I play. I don't want to play a game where I feel like I am no stronger after playing for 100 hours than I did in the first hour. Some games tune scaling to much and that feeling of getting stronger gets lost in just a gear grind which sucks.



    The biggest issue in gaming is content locust which tend to be the most vocal on forums. They rush through entire games to get to whatever the last content is to complain there is no content, when it is their playstyle that is the real issue.



    This is where I find myself. I love the idea of making content relevant no matter where Im at, but I also have never seen it implemented well. GW2 was maybe the best, but ARPG’s have almost always been about progression, you have to feel like youre getting better, stronger like the hours on the treadmill are helping you become a better fighting machine or eventually you’ll jump off and find a different piece of work out equipment, or just quit altogether.

  • elveoneelveone Member RarePosts: 334
    Most people in the comments are missing the point. The scaling is not used to make every zone of equal difficulty as any other zone but to ensure each zone has specific progression on it's own. Items scale according to how appropriate they are to that zone and items scale best when they are used in the zone they are originating from. This is in order to have the zones being playable in different order while retaining the difficulty curve of the zone itself.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,920
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..
    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.
    Its shit and makes everything trivial so whats the difference in a game like ESO 93% of the game is solobale .. Overland content is a complete joke , Dolmens are a joke/World bosses are a joke ... There is no challenge in ESO unless you are doing Vet Trials ...




     

    You really need to play on the other server (EU if you play NA regularly or viceversa) since you seem to be so out of touch with your noob self.

    Yeah ESO with 810CP, geared to the teeth in gold or purple sets and with 4 years of experience with the game is really, really easy... just try that no CP,  no gear noob character... go solo a dolmen and get back to me :) 
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,982
    edited September 2018
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..
    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.
    Its shit and makes everything trivial so whats the difference in a game like ESO 93% of the game is solobale .. Overland content is a complete joke , Dolmens are a joke/World bosses are a joke ... There is no challenge in ESO unless you are doing Vet Trials ...




     

    You really need to play on the other server (EU if you play NA regularly or viceversa) since you seem to be so out of touch with your noob self.

    Yeah ESO with 810CP, geared to the teeth in gold or purple sets and with 4 years of experience with the game is really, really easy... just try that no CP,  no gear noob character... go solo a dolmen and get back to me :) 
    Im not out of touch with anything , and you are adding all those parameters i said nothing of CP or gear ...

       Fact Players can and do Solo nearly all content in ESO regularly .. .. I mentioned nothing Of CP or Gear you did ..

              If anyone does not believe it all they need to do is google Solo ESO world Bosses for ex.. Plenty of videos there to see ..

     here ill help







    There are many of these to see .. and everyone that plays ESO sees this happening in game regularly





  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,920
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..
    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.
    Its shit and makes everything trivial so whats the difference in a game like ESO 93% of the game is solobale .. Overland content is a complete joke , Dolmens are a joke/World bosses are a joke ... There is no challenge in ESO unless you are doing Vet Trials ...




     

    You really need to play on the other server (EU if you play NA regularly or viceversa) since you seem to be so out of touch with your noob self.

    Yeah ESO with 810CP, geared to the teeth in gold or purple sets and with 4 years of experience with the game is really, really easy... just try that no CP,  no gear noob character... go solo a dolmen and get back to me :) 
    Im not out of touch with anything , and you are adding all those parameters i said nothing of CP or gear ...

       Fact Players can and do Solo nearly all content in ESO regularly .. .. I mentioned nothing Of CP or Gear you did ..

              If anyone does not believe it all they need to do is google Solo ESO world Bosses for ex.. Plenty of videos there to see ..
    I mention it because it is the CP and gear that makes the overland and normal dungeon combat trivial. Just try what I suggested and you'll see how a player new to the game lives.

    I see them drop like flies in overland content quite often and when I'm healing a random normal PUG I can always spot them because they're the ones with almost no damage mitigation.

    Fact is that the power gap between players new to the game and us geared and heavily CP'd vets is enormous. It ain't all that easy for the noobs.
    TorvalThupliKyleran
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,982
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..
    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.
    Its shit and makes everything trivial so whats the difference in a game like ESO 93% of the game is solobale .. Overland content is a complete joke , Dolmens are a joke/World bosses are a joke ... There is no challenge in ESO unless you are doing Vet Trials ...




     

    You really need to play on the other server (EU if you play NA regularly or viceversa) since you seem to be so out of touch with your noob self.

    Yeah ESO with 810CP, geared to the teeth in gold or purple sets and with 4 years of experience with the game is really, really easy... just try that no CP,  no gear noob character... go solo a dolmen and get back to me :) 
    Im not out of touch with anything , and you are adding all those parameters i said nothing of CP or gear ...

       Fact Players can and do Solo nearly all content in ESO regularly .. .. I mentioned nothing Of CP or Gear you did ..

              If anyone does not believe it all they need to do is google Solo ESO world Bosses for ex.. Plenty of videos there to see ..
    I mention it because it is the CP and gear that makes the overland and normal dungeon combat trivial. Just try what I suggested and you'll see how a player new to the game lives.

    I see them drop like flies in overland content quite often and when I'm healing a random normal PUG I can always spot them because they're the ones with almost no damage mitigation.

    Fact is that the power gap between players new to the game and us geared and heavily CP'd vets is enormous. It ain't all that easy for the noobs.
    Cmon man that my entire point in this thread and others ,  The scaling has made the content trivial .. Thx for reinforcing that ..And that when i lost interest . I  loved ESO ( still moderatley enjoyit) But when the added scaling it killed the game for me .. Everything is easy every fight feels exactly the same ..

       And l;ets not disregard that you can lvl to 50 in less than a day if you watch a couple videos and follow them .. And be geared well
    Aeander
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,862
    Scaling is a way to cover up the lack of real dynamic AI in gaming and make all content relevant to all players. 
     Once the puzzle of real dynamic AI is solved on the software side scaling won’t be used anymore. 
    Until then ‘eh’ it can be good and bad but if the game is fun that is all that matters to me. 
    IselinTorvalKyleran

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,982
    edited September 2018
    Scaling is a way to cover up the lack of real dynamic AI in gaming and make all content relevant to all players. 
     Once the puzzle of real dynamic AI is solved on the software side scaling won’t be used anymore. 
    Until then ‘eh’ it can be good and bad but if the game is fun that is all that matters to me. 
       And that right there is the problem for me .. Lack of fun ..
      I love the exploration ..its top notch

     I enjoy the fishing

      The crafting is well done

    Cyrodill is fun

     The market and guild system i actually enjoy..

     The majority of combat which you spend most time doing is faceroll thru mobs using the 3-5 skills and barley stop moving as you mow your way thru them

     Kicking kittens is not fun to me ..

     An as i pointed out we have some great example of games that have fun content that dont rely on full scaling .. UO,FF11,FF14, EQ2, Rift,LOTRO etc .. all systems that make all content viable but remain a challenge ..


  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 15,920
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Iselin said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scorchien said:
    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..
    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.
    Its shit and makes everything trivial so whats the difference in a game like ESO 93% of the game is solobale .. Overland content is a complete joke , Dolmens are a joke/World bosses are a joke ... There is no challenge in ESO unless you are doing Vet Trials ...




     

    You really need to play on the other server (EU if you play NA regularly or viceversa) since you seem to be so out of touch with your noob self.

    Yeah ESO with 810CP, geared to the teeth in gold or purple sets and with 4 years of experience with the game is really, really easy... just try that no CP,  no gear noob character... go solo a dolmen and get back to me :) 
    Im not out of touch with anything , and you are adding all those parameters i said nothing of CP or gear ...

       Fact Players can and do Solo nearly all content in ESO regularly .. .. I mentioned nothing Of CP or Gear you did ..

              If anyone does not believe it all they need to do is google Solo ESO world Bosses for ex.. Plenty of videos there to see ..
    I mention it because it is the CP and gear that makes the overland and normal dungeon combat trivial. Just try what I suggested and you'll see how a player new to the game lives.

    I see them drop like flies in overland content quite often and when I'm healing a random normal PUG I can always spot them because they're the ones with almost no damage mitigation.

    Fact is that the power gap between players new to the game and us geared and heavily CP'd vets is enormous. It ain't all that easy for the noobs.
    Cmon man that my entire point in this thread and others ,  The scaling has made the content trivial .. Thx for reinforcing that ..And that when i lost interest . I  loved ESO ( still moderatley enjoyit) But when the added scaling it killed the game for me .. Everything is easy every fight feels exactly the same ..

       And l;ets not disregard that you can lvl to 50 in less than a day if you watch a couple videos and follow them .. And be geared well
    The thing is that you want to blame it on scaling when it has nothing to do with that. The game becomes very easy only AFTER you're no longer being scaled up. If anything it's not quite as easy as it was when you were at max level and CP and the mobs had levels.

    A max level player going against a CP160 mob (which is the level of all mobs in the game with scaling) will find that very easy. What do you think it'd be like if he were fighting a level 5 mob?

    I get that you don't like scaling but not everything bad is caused by that.
    Thupli
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • DemogorgonDemogorgon Member UncommonPosts: 363
    Global level scaling suck! That's all there is to say about this.
    There's no need to try and convince the stupids who can't even get they are in the wrong place for what they are looking for. If you don't like RPG's, maybe you should go play, you know, actual ACTION games. imo ofc.

    A side note though: MMORPG game today are absolute shit... so the fault is obviously not all theirs.
    Aeander
  • DemogorgonDemogorgon Member UncommonPosts: 363
    edited September 2018
    Hariken said:



    Scorchien said:

    Scaling blows .... dissapointed to see this .. It may keep me away ..


    Yeah, cause all those worthless zones you never go back to and content not worth touching is great when you're max level.  

    Scaling is probably the best thing to happen to modern MMOs.



    I totally agree with this. Its what i hate about most rpg's. You should always be able to go back to older zones. This way devs can even add events in those older zones. This is the one thing some modern mmo's have got right.
    Nothing is preventing higher lvl events in lower lvl zone without lvl scaling. Point is moot.

    Today's poor/streamlined/dumb down game design is solely at fault here.
    Aeander
  • Soki123Soki123 Member RarePosts: 2,558
    edited September 2018

    Scorchien said:



    Scaling is a way to cover up the lack of real dynamic AI in gaming and make all content relevant to all players. 
     Once the puzzle of real dynamic AI is solved on the software side scaling won’t be used anymore. 
    Until then ‘eh’ it can be good and bad but if the game is fun that is all that matters to me. 

      
    And that right there is the problem for me .. Lack of fun ..
      I love the exploration ..its top notch

     I enjoy the fishing

      The crafting is well done

    Cyrodill is fun

     The market and guild system i actually enjoy..

     The majority of combat which you spend most time doing is faceroll thru mobs using the 3-5 skills and barley stop moving as you mow your way thru them

     Kicking kittens is not fun to me ..

     An as i pointed out we have some great example of games that have fun content that dont rely on full scaling .. UO,FF11,FF14, EQ2, Rift,LOTRO etc .. all systems that make all content viable but remain a challenge ..





    Ah yes Scorch, Wiz version 2.0. If its not exactly what they like it s shit. Get a grip , theres a reason ESO and WoW do well. It s because they don t listen to people like you.

    Few posts ago it mentioned you were out of touch, I would say, that's bang on.
    AeanderKyleran
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