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Question for EQ1 players

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  • WarEnsembleWarEnsemble Member UncommonPosts: 138
    edited October 2018
    It is hard for me to articulate what I want from Pantheon or any other mmo for that matter. On one hand, I enjoy the hardcore grind that punishes me for stupid mistakes and forces me to group with other players because those are the things that make you feel passionate about your character and friends. On the other hand, I have no desire to grind for 4 weeks straight just to make 1 out of 100 levels, or schedule a raid time at 7pm and finally roll out at 8:30 because 3 of the 40 people necessary couldn't be bothered to show up on time. I want old school hardcore with today's creature comforts... if that is even possible.

    What > I < personally want for sure:
    - A large, diversified class system. The more classes, the better. No talent trees.
    - Holy trinity mechanics. Tank, healer, puller, dps, support.
    - Auto attack combat! None of that dynamic action combat that has flooded the market.
    - Less meaningless quests. I don't want to collect 20 snake eggs or hundreds of Deathfist Slashed Belts. I want to grind mobs or work on life time quests that have a meaningful result.
    - Clear, definable progression for my chosen class  and the feeling of becoming stronger with each level. Waiting 4 levels to get a new spell or only getting 5 more points in 1HB when I level up that doesn't equate to more damage is meaningless.
    - Built for first person view with option to scroll out to 3rd person.
    - Lots of large, over stated, complex looking weapons and armor. I don't care about the slider that allows me to turn my nose up or down, or make my ears bigger or smaller. That is not customization to me.
    - A complex guild system. I loved the guild quest and level system in EQ2!
    - I would love to have a real purpose for gods and deities. Being able to rank up with my chosen god and receive benefits would be fantastic! 
    - And I guess if I am to be honest, I'd prefer to not have a subscription.

    But that is just me.
    Prepared
  • asteldiancaliskanasteldiancaliskan Member UncommonPosts: 58
    Challenge, Consequence and Freedom (not a quest hub based game) this breeds satisfaction in achievement and social interaction. Thats essentially what i want from Pantheon. People can argue the specifics of various mechanics, but i personally dont care - it doesn't need to be an EQ1 clone or something totally different. How they achieve CCF is not important to me. People always use EQ1 mechanics as examples because no game has really offered the above since EQ1. Even the most pro EQ clone people are really just looking for CCF and aren't sure how to get it without replicating EQ due to a lack of other examples rather than necessarily wanting a remake (well, that is what i think anyway)
  • Superman0XSuperman0X Member RarePosts: 2,148
    When EQ originally launched (before the first expansions) the key factor of the game was the fact that the players were outclassed by the game itself. There was a real struggle to fight, survive, and progress. Every player personally felt the threat of the death of their characters, and knew that the only way to reduce that threat was to play both cautiously, as well as with others. Everyone would pitch in for a corpse run, because we all understood that tomorrow, that could easily be us. Community and reputation were all important, as a bad standing in the community meant that you could not progress in the game, as you needed community support for most things.

    The way that the classes were interdependent. The way that the community was interdependent. The way that the game provided mandatory down time for socialization. These all made playing on a server a common experience for all, and helped create strong communities that newer games did not.
    craftseeker
  • ChefaahzChefaahz Member CommonPosts: 1
    https://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm I’ll just leave this here 
    Amathe
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 20,178
    edited November 2018
    When EQ originally launched (before the first expansions) the key factor of the game was the fact that the players were outclassed by the game itself. There was a real struggle to fight, survive, and progress. Every player personally felt the threat of the death of their characters, and knew that the only way to reduce that threat was to play both cautiously, as well as with others. Everyone would pitch in for a corpse run, because we all understood that tomorrow, that could easily be us. Community and reputation were all important, as a bad standing in the community meant that you could not progress in the game, as you needed community support for most things.

    The way that the classes were interdependent. The way that the community was interdependent. The way that the game provided mandatory down time for socialization. These all made playing on a server a common experience for all, and helped create strong communities that newer games did not.


    This is only true for players who:

    1. Were undergeared
    2. Soloed a lot
    3. Grouped with other undergeard players
    4. Didn't fully understand the underlying game mechanics
    5. Weren't doing appropriate content for their gear/level

    A well geared group in EQ1 before Kunark launch was not even close to being outclassed by the game - everything was on perma-camp status right before Kunark launch. One could take a low level character and walk them from upper guk to lower guk all the way to ghoul lord and wach people farm Ykesha swords.

    The more players started to understand how EQ1 worked - how classes worked, levels and gear - it all became just a simple math problem to be solved for min/max efficiency. 

    The key part of the community was the players themselves - in 1999 players with internet access were lovable nerds that loved RPGs and had a ton in common - unlike today where anyone has online access so those lovable RPG nerds are few and far between.

    IMO the experience of EQ1 in 1999 cannot be replicated again - I know that many love to think that "it's the game" - but it's both the players AND the game - and nobody can turn back the clock on getting the playerbase to be like it was in 1999

    So while games like Pantheon can try to capture the gameplay of EQ1 vanilla - they will never be able to recreate the playerbase from 1999. 

    blueturtle13kitaradMendelLokeroUngoodimmodiumcraftseekerTrolldefender99
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,418
    DMKano said:
    When EQ originally launched (before the first expansions) the key factor of the game was the fact that the players were outclassed by the game itself. There was a real struggle to fight, survive, and progress. Every player personally felt the threat of the death of their characters, and knew that the only way to reduce that threat was to play both cautiously, as well as with others. Everyone would pitch in for a corpse run, because we all understood that tomorrow, that could easily be us. Community and reputation were all important, as a bad standing in the community meant that you could not progress in the game, as you needed community support for most things.

    The way that the classes were interdependent. The way that the community was interdependent. The way that the game provided mandatory down time for socialization. These all made playing on a server a common experience for all, and helped create strong communities that newer games did not.


    This is only true for players who:

    4. Didn't fully understand the underlying game mechanics


    Well, what he said was accurate though.  He specifically said "when EQ launched(before expansions...)"etc.

    At that time, nobody understood the mechanics very well.  EQ was so vague with actual mechanical information, that it took some years before people fully understood a lot of things in the game.  Well, that, and we didn't have all these min-max napkin mathers and data-miners at that time.
    So, really, everyone fell into category 4 in the early days.

    I still get a kick thinking about all the old silly rumors and superstitions the community spread in EQ.  There were more fish tales amongst EQ players than the ancient sailors.

    But, that just supports the point of your post, DMKano -- it's simply impossible to recapture that stuff again.  The same way no one will ever discover another new continent sailing the world. 
    There's just not much left to discover, which makes everything much more routine and forces people to focus on efficiency.
    UngoodHawkaya399craftseeker
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 191
    Lokero said:
    DMKano said:
    When EQ originally launched (before the first expansions) the key factor of the game was the fact that the players were outclassed by the game itself. There was a real struggle to fight, survive, and progress. Every player personally felt the threat of the death of their characters, and knew that the only way to reduce that threat was to play both cautiously, as well as with others. Everyone would pitch in for a corpse run, because we all understood that tomorrow, that could easily be us. Community and reputation were all important, as a bad standing in the community meant that you could not progress in the game, as you needed community support for most things.

    The way that the classes were interdependent. The way that the community was interdependent. The way that the game provided mandatory down time for socialization. These all made playing on a server a common experience for all, and helped create strong communities that newer games did not.


    This is only true for players who:

    4. Didn't fully understand the underlying game mechanics


    Well, what he said was accurate though.  He specifically said "when EQ launched(before expansions...)"etc.

    At that time, nobody understood the mechanics very well.  EQ was so vague with actual mechanical information, that it took some years before people fully understood a lot of things in the game.  Well, that, and we didn't have all these min-max napkin mathers and data-miners at that time.
    So, really, everyone fell into category 4 in the early days.

    I still get a kick thinking about all the old silly rumors and superstitions the community spread in EQ.  There were more fish tales amongst EQ players than the ancient sailors.

    But, that just supports the point of your post, DMKano -- it's simply impossible to recapture that stuff again.  The same way no one will ever discover another new continent sailing the world. 
    There's just not much left to discover, which makes everything much more routine and forces people to focus on efficiency.
    LOL Not only did people not understand the mechanics early one. They were in a state of flux at least on the class I played and constantly changing. Heck when my bard first got to 50 almost half his skills did nothing. At a mid-level I remember him going from being a super crowd controller better than a chanter one week to a few weeks later poof most of that gone. They were not ready for how fast people were going to level in the game. When we got to level 50, what did we have to do, kill two dragons that if I remember correctly spawned something like once a week or whenever the server crashed.
     So I certainly don't expect to recapture that aspect of early EQ as surely most games now will have the higher level stuff more developed at release.

     I did fear death and corpse loss some I guess at lower level and I certainly was not going to run into a dungeon and see how far I could get before I died and stuff like that. At max level, I really only feared losing my corpse due to game bugs. Like one time I zone into a dungeon in velious and apparently I was on the dragon at the bottom of the dungeon shit list as it immediately summoned me to the bottom and killed me. Unfortunately after this most of the mobs in the zone got bugged at the entrance and would kill you before you finished zoning in. That was not fun and of course the GMs would do nothing.
    craftseeker
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 384
    edited November 2018
    When EQ originally launched (before the first expansions) the key factor of the game was the fact that the players were outclassed by the game itself. There was a real struggle to fight, survive, and progress. Every player personally felt the threat of the death of their characters, and knew that the only way to reduce that threat was to play both cautiously, as well as with others. Everyone would pitch in for a corpse run, because we all understood that tomorrow, that could easily be us. Community and reputation were all important, as a bad standing in the community meant that you could not progress in the game, as you needed community support for most things.

    The way that the classes were interdependent. The way that the community was interdependent. The way that the game provided mandatory down time for socialization. These all made playing on a server a common experience for all, and helped create strong communities that newer games did not.
    I hate to say this, and believe me because THIS is front and center in my presence here and I'll be there when it releases, BUT I  believe ultimately commercial MMORPGs are always in the process of transitioning to single player workings. This is why soloing is so effective. Time and time again interdependancies in MMORPGs are removed or reduced from original state. The demand is too high in the player population for self-reliance. This is why the MMO mechanics are gimmicks to create the illusion of playing with others, whilst being sold as the real deal. It's a distortion of the truth. Thus, it's very difficult to a trully player interdependent MMO to survive financially.

    I feel like being donation supported may be the only way. The objective isn't making money, but a work of love by the developers and players. Like Project 1999. Beleive it or not, but many of those players aren't there just because ti's EQ, but because of the interdependance. I'm not sure the market can support something that extreme anymore, except in special circumstances. We all can find examples in various MMO's, but it's next to impossible to find examples in AAA quality MMO's as extensive as it was in original EQ.

    Yes I want Pantheon to have this interdependance, I just don't think it'll stay. Pantheon will water down and soloing will increase in its effectiveness over time. Many years of observing MMORPGs has led me to these conclusions. Only free MMO's, and only commercial MMO's in their initial creation.

    This is not to say interedependancies are impossible. Shooter games like fortnite or the older  Tribes are well known for players almost exclusively working together with specialized skillsets. However, this is not in an MMORPG environment. These games are fast paced and only mildly progression-based, and usually not persistent. If all these things are to be together, there has to be tremendous compromises somewhere.

    Bottom line, most players in the commercial market demand accessible, fast gaming. It has to be easy to pick up and play. This is at the root of almost every change in these games. If interdependency exists, it has to be the kind which presents minimal obstacles.

    The reason indie commercial MMORPGs can't be relied on longterm to focus on niche audiences searching for these interdependencis is because almost all MMO's universially eventually seek a common denominator to bolster their profitability. This usually means axing the more niche features. First to go are any strong interdependencies or obstacles sitting in the way.

    I hate to paint a pessimistic picture. In reality I'm fairly optimistic. My attitude is the glass is half full.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • asteldiancaliskanasteldiancaliskan Member UncommonPosts: 58
    To be honest, i would settle for Vanguard's standard of interdepence. There was plenty that could be done when in a short time alone, but everything was more efficient with others and far more fun - all the real exciting content was designed for team play but there was adventure to be found alone, it was just slower and more mundane meaning it was never preferable if you were going to be on for an extended period.
    delete5230
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,169
    I think in content where there is high population it's easy to have interdependence, and when an mmo ages and expands with new content then it becomes more and more difficult to find other players willing to do that old content.  At that point interdependence fails, and is replaced with ways for the new player to survive without that interdependence.  It is just natural growth in an mmo.  People will complain "but we had to do it the hard way".  No.  You did it the easy way - when it was easy to find people wanting to do that content.
    AmatheHawkaya399tweedledumb99
  • ChildoftheShadowsChildoftheShadows Member RarePosts: 962
    It is hard for me to articulate what I want from Pantheon or any other mmo for that matter. On one hand, I enjoy the hardcore grind that punishes me for stupid mistakes and forces me to group with other players because those are the things that make you feel passionate about your character and friends. On the other hand, I have no desire to grind for 4 weeks straight just to make 1 out of 100 levels, or schedule a raid time at 7pm and finally roll out at 8:30 because 3 of the 40 people necessary couldn't be bothered to show up on time. I want old school hardcore with today's creature comforts... if that is even possible.

    What > I < personally want for sure:
    - A large, diversified class system. The more classes, the better. No talent trees.
    - Holy trinity mechanics. Tank, healer, puller, dps, support.
    - Auto attack combat! None of that dynamic action combat that has flooded the market.
    - Less meaningless quests. I don't want to collect 20 snake eggs or hundreds of Deathfist Slashed Belts. I want to grind mobs or work on life time quests that have a meaningful result.
    - Clear, definable progression for my chosen class  and the feeling of becoming stronger with each level. Waiting 4 levels to get a new spell or only getting 5 more points in 1HB when I level up that doesn't equate to more damage is meaningless.
    - Built for first person view with option to scroll out to 3rd person.
    - Lots of large, over stated, complex looking weapons and armor. I don't care about the slider that allows me to turn my nose up or down, or make my ears bigger or smaller. That is not customization to me.
    - A complex guild system. I loved the guild quest and level system in EQ2!
    - I would love to have a real purpose for gods and deities. Being able to rank up with my chosen god and receive benefits would be fantastic! 
    - And I guess if I am to be honest, I'd prefer to not have a subscription.

    But that is just me.
    TIL trinity = 5
    tweedledumb99
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,209
    EQ was the ONLY game I ever bought PRIMA strategy guides for every expansion.

  • PpiperPpiper Member UncommonPosts: 962
    Honestly when I started EQ all i had was Diablo under my belt. I just thought that's how you play a game like this. I enjoyed it thoroughly. However, if I had to start a new game the same way, it wouldn't work for me. I've played to many games since and now expect to be lead around by the nose. Does that make it better, hell n. In fact, I cannot name one game since that was as exhilirating as EQ was and still is for some.
    craftseeker
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,519
    EQ1 is old 
    Players of EQ1 are old and moving on 
    New generation are playing On-line games 
    New generation have no choices 
    New generation games are 30-60 days of content 
    New generation games are loosing population for many reasons 
    New generation games are not being produced 
    New generation games are Asian outsourced   


    mmorpgs are dying because of the facts above.  Players are moving on because of this.  Point being it's not the players, but the management of it all.  


    It's imposable to predict how people will react in the future, its IMPORTANT to understand where we stand is because of production of mmorpg's …… NOT THE PLAYERS ! 

    It's all an unknown, but one thing I can say... Pantheon will be new all over again. 
    craftseekerHawkaya399
  • AmatheAmathe Member EpicPosts: 4,897
    EQ1 is old 
    Players of EQ1 are old and moving on  
    EQ1 has been going strong for 18 years. It just had a new expansion. There are other games from that era that are also still being played; e.g., UO and DAOC. "Old" people stick with things. Not everyone gives up and quits in the newbie yard. 
    craftseekerHawkaya399Gyva02

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,519
    edited November 2018
    Amathe said:
    EQ1 is old 
    Players of EQ1 are old and moving on  
    EQ1 has been going strong for 18 years. It just had a new expansion. There are other games from that era that are also still being played; e.g., UO and DAOC. "Old" people stick with things. Not everyone gives up and quits in the newbie yard. 
    At least 50 people or more say they don't have it in them any more.

    Thanks for the dig jerk !
    craftseekersvann
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,169
    get help.
    craftseeker
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,519
    edited November 2018
    svann said:
    get help.

    Post edited by delete5230 on
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 384
    edited November 2018
    svann said:
    get help.
    (naughty naughty delete you know better) you !

    You may have a point. If production produces the wrong kinds of games this will eventually open up a window for someone else to produce what they want. However, I don't thinik that'll be pantheon. I absolutely agree with what you said about Pantheon being new all over again. I think many people here underestimate what that means. It means some of that magic all over again. Having to learn the ropes all over again. It's not a science yet. Pugs. Free love. Theorycrafting. Learning together. This is one of the reasons I refuse to watch those update videos showing gameplay. This is why I'm not in the  Pantheon forums. I intentionally want to be ignorant. I'm waiting until release.
  • MargaretavilleMargaretaville Member UncommonPosts: 20
    edited November 2018
    EQ1 is old 
    Keep in mind the market demographics and the history of roleplay games.

    Roleplay hit the market around 1969, when D&D was an appendix in Gygax's Chainmail rules. It had a Gamemaster, multiple players, and co-operative social interaction.

    Countless baby boomers grew up on D&D, played in high school, then through college, when FORTRAN and COBOL were the latest and greatest computer languages. Gary Gygax got rich off this market. Players bought and sat down and painted miniatures to play. They had time before jobs and families came along.

    With jobs and families they switched to Wizardry games, and Ultima games, starting in the late 70s and early 80s, then moved back into social interaction with EQ in the late 90s. All these games have a common, evolving, basis. 

    Fast forward today, those same boomers are now entering retirement at ever increasing numbers. That means they have no careers, no kids, and plenty of time on their hands. At 60+ something years old their mind goes back to their younger gaming days. It's either that, or sit on the sofa all day and watch FOX/CNN blood pressure central (choose preference, they're both the same format, just different sides of the same coin, chase ratings to sell commercial time).

    They were never big on twitch games, you don't see many boomers playing first person shooters because their mind is not wired like a younger (information age) persons mind. Their mindset is slower, more contemplative, less impulsive. They reach decisions slower than the younger generations. They did long division/square roots without calculators.

    It's not that their brains are better, or worse, it's just they're wired different because of the technology Boomers grew up with. The world moved at a slower pace back then. Boomers minds didn't need to be wired for fast response twitch action.

    So to say Pantheon will crash and burn because people are not interested in old style games is not really accurate. Gamers younger than boomers may not be as interested in an old style game, but, if marketed at boomers, Vanguard can still pick up quite a following.

    Retiree gamers don't need the "Golden Path" game that plays itself. Social interaction is a plus, they no longer get that at work, which is why many join senior centers. 

    They also don't need a pay to win cash shop, they have the time to work through the encounter and eventually solve it.

    Granted, it's like Bill Knapps, doomed to die out in 10 to 20 years. 

    But today there is a "Boomer" market.
    craftseekerdelete5230
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,519
    EQ1 is old 
    Keep in mind the market demographics and the history of roleplay games.

    Roleplay hit the market around 1969, when D&D was an appendix in Gygax's Chainmail rules. It had a Gamemaster, multiple players, and co-operative social interaction.

    Countless baby boomers grew up on D&D, played in high school, then through college, when FORTRAN and COBOL were the latest and greatest computer languages. Gary Gygax got rich off this market. Players bought and sat down and painted miniatures to play. They had time before jobs and families came along.

    With jobs and families they switched to Wizardry games, and Ultima games, starting in the late 70s and early 80s, then moved back into social interaction with EQ in the late 90s. All these games have a common, evolving, basis. 

    Fast forward today, those same boomers are now entering retirement at ever increasing numbers. That means they have no careers, no kids, and plenty of time on their hands. At 60+ something years old their mind goes back to their younger gaming days. It's either that, or sit on the sofa all day and watch FOX/CNN blood pressure central (choose preference, they're both the same format, just different sides of the same coin, chase ratings to sell commercial time).

    They were never big on twitch games, you don't see many boomers playing first person shooters because their mind is not wired like a younger (information age) persons mind. Their mindset is slower, more contemplative, less impulsive. They reach decisions slower than the younger generations. They did long division/square roots without calculators.

    It's not that their brains are better, or worse, it's just they're wired different because of the technology Boomers grew up with. The world moved at a slower pace back then. Boomers minds didn't need to be wired for fast response twitch action.

    So to say Pantheon will crash and burn because people are not interested in old style games is not really accurate. Gamers younger than boomers may not be as interested in an old style game, but, if marketed at boomers, Vanguard can still pick up quite a following.

    Retiree gamers don't need the "Golden Path" game that plays itself. Social interaction is a plus, they no longer get that at work, which is why many join senior centers. 

    They also don't need a pay to win cash shop, they have the time to work through the encounter and eventually solve it.

    Granted, it's like Bill Knapps, doomed to die out in 10 to 20 years. 

    But today there is a "Boomer" market.
    Often when I read something interesting I'll pick up on something to say.  
    But in this case it's just a nice read 

    Thanks :)
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,519
    edited November 2018
    svann said:
    get help.
    (naughty naughty delete you know better) you !

    You may have a point. If production produces the wrong kinds of games this will eventually open up a window for someone else to produce what they want. However, I don't thinik that'll be pantheon. I absolutely agree with what you said about Pantheon being new all over again. I think many people here underestimate what that means. It means some of that magic all over again. Having to learn the ropes all over again. It's not a science yet. Pugs. Free love. Theorycrafting. Learning together. This is one of the reasons I refuse to watch those update videos showing gameplay. This is why I'm not in the  Pantheon forums. I intentionally want to be ignorant. I'm waiting until release.

    This is a nice one too. 
    I like the part "Free love, Theory crafting, learning together". 

    None of us have the faintest clue how the player will take this. People stereotype age brackets from young to old rich or poor and everything in between, I don't.  @margaretaville above painted a nice picture of how it was in the beginning with the history and mindset of long ago.  People are still the same, others feel different.



    Where most here are wrong is Big Business changed the industry to their liking, what fit their mold. They looked at Blizzards money and decided to capitalize on huge profits of building for profit only.  It's not an X File or conspiracy theory it's what they do to everything....Basing everything on  "they did it not the players"  NO ONE KNOWS what will be accepted.  If everyone drank the Kool Aid here and believe the charts, well I can't help that.  Because everyone plays everything, sure the numbers will look good. 

    ArcheAge is proof, Trion took an Asian game re-tooled it for pure profit… Guess what it worked !.... From what I've seen, it wasn't a bad game, but it was used to trick the players. 

    Black Desert, they took an enjoyable family style game re-tooled the cash shop for the west to trick the player.  

    So their you have it, both 
    -Nice game 
    -Trick the player

    It's new, it's brand new all over again.
    Post edited by delete5230 on
  • MargaretavilleMargaretaville Member UncommonPosts: 20
    edited November 2018


    Where most here are wrong is Big Business changed the industry to their liking, what fit their mold.   

    This is not necessarily bad, as long as Big Business does it's job correctly, and meets the market's expectations, which really isn't happening in the case of MMORPGs.

    Big Business is still chasing that WOW market niche as being the next great big thing.

    It isn't, MMORPGs have been around long enough to stratify into Boomers, Gen X'ers, Millennials, and the up and coming youth generation. Each has different expectations, and one size won't fit all.

    For example, I know of a 70 something Boomer who has grandchildren in another city that he can play Eldar Scrolls Online with. To him the game is more of a social platform, providing better/quicker feedback with the grandkids than Facebook. Grandpa and grandkids bond.

    Kill 10 rats and turn in to quest giver isn't as important. What today's game designers are aiming for, golden path auto play with flashy graphics and pay to win cash shop complete with loot lottery boxes, doesn't meet his market needs. So he has sat out until he found a game that he can tolerate. Even a $20/month per subscription option is a better choice for him than the current crop of FTP garbage. But the industry believes FTP garbage appeals to all market demographics.

    How many Boomers and Gen X'ers from the Wizardry/Ultima days are sitting on the sidelines because the current crop of MMORPG's just don't move them? How many Millennials are not moved by the current crop of games? Where has the industry evolved to re-capture those on the sidelines? What is the priority, flashy graphics or social platform? Solo or multiplay? Why are we left to pray for innovative gameplay from Asian designers (oxymoron alert)? 

    The MMO business has lost sight of the market, they are not meeting market demands, just wash, rinse and repeat WOW with re-skinned graphics and cash shop. The market stratified, MMO's haven't.

    Think of it as Harley Davidson. They marketed motorcycles to Boomers to play the Easy Rider movie role. As Boomers retired they went back to their youth days, and bought Harley choppers. Now they are aging out of being physically able to ride, so Harley Davidson US sales are in decline. 

    Will a Gen X'er or a Millennial buy a Harley Chopper? No, because those are "old people's" bikes. 

    Harley Davidson never recognized the market corner they were painting themselves into, just like Bill Knapps/Howard Johnsons failed to recognize the market corner they painted themselves into. General Motors painted Oldsmobile into that corner, at least they recognized that with Buick, and now advertise that "this isn't your father's Buick".

    The MMORPG business is still stuck in their safe place of "This is your father's WOW". They are painting themselves into that corner, following Henry Ford's "You can have any color you want as long as it's black". I guess MMORPG developers must all drive black Fords, having never figured out there exists options for different market segments. 

    Their theory is not flying, to much of the market is sitting on the sidelines, waiting for a different color that meets market demands. 

    Pantheon may very well meet a 10-20 year market segment demand. Will it be a "WOW killer"? Gads, I hope not...….and that's not being said in a bad way.

    What we really need is moderately "successful" market segment games to banish this WOW Killer mentality forever. Then we can have options other than black.
    Post edited by Margaretaville on
    delete5230
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 921
    EQ is from a different era, and you weren't given *no* direction.  That's what other players were for - the expectations were different back then.  You logged in, and if you needed help you asked.  Friendly players would help you.

    The issue with EQ is that they made it almost impossible for the average person to become invested in the IP.  They scattered lore across the map, and they made players go on massive treasure hunting time sinks, talking to every NPC to find them - then piece together the lore nuggets.

    This meant that the game was very open to attack by other games that delivered content in a better way, which the next generation of MMORPGs did (WoW, EQ2, L2, etc.).

    It also hurt EQ2 and EQNext, as it limited the impact of any marketing they would do for those games.

    I don't think that kind of game is viable in the West, unless developed with quite low expectations.  Most people simply don't want to play a low-value gaming experience like this; and I don't expect Vanguard to be any better.  You don't need to log into a game to socialize.  You can run discord and do that while playing any game.  Sitting in front of a computer progressing at snails pace pressing the same buttons over and over while paying for it and getting very little out of your time investment is simply not a good deal.

    This is why faster paced leveling experiences with better PvP and more brisk content releases have taken over the market.
    Mendel
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 921
    The game had so many successful community building aspects to it that it promoted a healthy game environment in an mmo.
    Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/476310/question-for-eq1-players#uhFIgfEA2UE03E2l.99

    No, what promoted a healthy play environment was the Play Nice Policy, which SOE had Volunteer Guides and Hired GMs to enforce.

    Back in EQ's "heyday" if you sent in a petition, you'd probably get a personal response in-game within 20 minutes or so... for serious offenses, almost instantaneously.  Guides would handle small things.  GMs would handle more serious offenses.  Even character name changes and server transfers would be handled personally by GMs in game.

    GMs would log in and monitor disputes of open world raids, etc. even suspending or banning offenders.

    EQ's community was heavily monitored, and this was possible due to its (comparatively) small size compared to games like WoW and FFXIV.  Cussing at someone could see them report you, and you be infracted within minutes.  Training people, Keal Stealing, etc. were all reportable and Guides/GMs would personally log in game to monitor and action perpetrators.  If your surname was reported for being offended, they would log in and force you to change it.  If your character was stuck, they would log in to move it (they later implemented the unstuck command which was like a super long Gate to get you out, IIRC).

    This is literally impossible to do with the current large player bases of MMORPG Market Leaders.  You'd need a literal army of GMs and Guides to implement such a system.  The result is that the community can get away with a lot more, which means they will take that leeway whenever possible (human nature).

    EQ had very little community building aspects in its "heyday."  A lot of quality of life improvements for this didn't even exist until several years later.  The only community building aspect the game has was its design biased towards codependence.  That is, you were largely dependent on other players to progress, unless you wanted to solo for bad XP (with few exceptions, some classes were OP'd in that aspect).  This forced players to forge friendships, guilds, alliance, whatever.

    EQ was when the whole Guild Website and "Magelo" system became a huge deal - primarily due to how badly the game accommodated these things.  It didn't have a mail system.  It didn't have an Auction House until the Bazaar in Luclin - which was badly implemented (Required you to stay online during an era where Dial-Up (and "Linkdead") was still quite prevalent).

    What you're remembering is not accurate.  It is the result of bias, time, and nostalgia.
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