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Link between LootBoxes and problem gambling proven

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  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 15,058
    edited April 12
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:


    The compromise is to have them but put clearly next to it the odds of what you can get. 
    Agree, but also keep it away from minors.

    How exactly? National ID system? Photographs of driver's licenses? Notarized even?

    I'm all for the idea in theory, but still feel it's up to parents to manage.


    How do we keep alcohol away from kids?  Or gambling?  No system will be perfect, but anything would be better than what we have today which is literally allowing them to be marketed at kids.

    Generally speaking both gambling and alchohol  require an in store purchase with ID required to purchase or enter. 

    Online presents an entirely different set of challenges than brick and mortar sales.
    Maybe.  But then again I regularly order wine baskets for the holidays(admittedly not the same as a 6-pack).  I’m not up to date on what online gambling is legal in the states.  I think it’s a mishmash between the States though.  Pretty sure some places you can bet on sports and others you can’t.

    Well, if Lootboxes = gambling them I guess it should follow the same rules as other gambling.   And if the laws need to be updated (which they apparently do) maybe Congress can actually do something. Although I’m sure like everything else it will become a fight between left and right. 

    Maybe like I suggested, the first step is to make it illegal to market to children.   That seems like a no-brainer that left-right and anyone in between can agree on.
    The problem there is kids play games that are 18+ and have ways of getting round the need for a parents credit card. To me gambling should not be in gaming, If you opened a child's Monopoly set or an adults Trivial Pursuits, you would not expect to get a call from a croupier asking you for financial details to let you bet on aspects of the game.
    Gdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,306
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:


    The compromise is to have them but put clearly next to it the odds of what you can get. 
    Agree, but also keep it away from minors.

    How exactly? National ID system? Photographs of driver's licenses? Notarized even?

    I'm all for the idea in theory, but still feel it's up to parents to manage.


    How do we keep alcohol away from kids?  Or gambling?  No system will be perfect, but anything would be better than what we have today which is literally allowing them to be marketed at kids.

    Generally speaking both gambling and alchohol  require an in store purchase with ID required to purchase or enter. 

    Online presents an entirely different set of challenges than brick and mortar sales.
    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/nfl-picks-caesars-fanduel-draftkings-for-sports-betting-partnerships.html

    Looks like online gambling is about to explode.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 8,296
    It always cracks me up when I go to a website and it says 'You must be 18 years old to enter"....so you type in a fictitious birthdate and all is good......Online gambling is a bad thing...Theres a million ways around the age restrictions.
    tzervo
  • StizzledStizzled Member RarePosts: 2,110
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    Gdemami
  • RungarRungar Member RarePosts: 478
    No they want unique digital id. They don't care about children. If they did the world would be completely different. 

    Certainly not this fatherless gangsta tribal shithole.  
    .33 of a second to midnight
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 21,277
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.

    Those should be regulated as well. Just because they've been justified historically doesn't make the practice any less predatory. Blind box sales of all kinds are bad for the consumer.

    @Kyleran and I were talking last night about how insidious ZoS is with their lootcrate and gem system in The Elder Scrolls Online. The loot crates have an incredibly low percentage to drop the chase items (no surprise there). Some, but not all, loot crate rewards can be broken down into "Crown Gems" if they're duplicates or you just don't want them. Each item has a chance to give a range of gems so you're not even guaranteed to get a set amount. Some items give 2 - 5 gems per deconstruct. The rare chase items are typically between 1000  - 1500 Crown gems. So it costs the player several hundred dollars to get just one item that otherwise won't drop from the crate.

    With this system ZoS can claim that any 'gambling' is offset by the system that lets player purchase the item outright. ZoS, like most other publishers, doesn't disclose the drop rates of the items or curve for gem returns on deconstruction.

    This industry desperately needs regulation. If the lol reactions of the Trololol "developer" are any indication, the industry knows this and enjoys their unregulated playground and desperately wants to keep a status quo.
    KyleranGdemamiNyctelios
    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,447
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    NycteliostzervoGdemami
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,959
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    Yeah. The difference between Magic the Gathering boosters and gaming loot boxes is that I can purchase cards directly from my friends or from the local game stores without ever putting a dime into the booster packs.

    And, as much Wizards like to forget, boosters are made for draft play, not to pop a couple in hopes you'll get the card you want - thats just bad decision making.

    Nobody in the MTG community will say you should pop some boosters to get a card. Just go and purchase directly from someone from the many sites that sells them. And you also can sell yours so... yeah.

    Video game loot boxes giving no physical prize - no tangible nor permanent resource - that's the issue. It could be solved with a "Steam Market" of sorts which would allow players to exchange between them (with a cut, of course)... but companies would hate that, wouldn't they?

    Even Wizards, time to time, try to battle the secondary market... So much so they gave up and accepted most non rotation formats which are fully fueled by the secondary market. Bye bye brawl.
    Gdemami
    Discord ID: Night # 6102
    Current playing: 
    Elite Dangerous

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    edited April 29
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    Some MMOs have such methods to acquire stuff found in lootboxes from other players (for example, GW2) but they still get a lot of flak.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,959
    tzervo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    Many MMOs have such methods to acquire stuff found in lootboxes from other players (for example, GW2) but they still get a lot of flak.
    They... did some dirt.

    That was the speech, yes. "You can buy gems". You would go and convert X gold for Y gems int he ratio set by the demand...

    Then they changed

    You can't convert X amount anymore. It is a set amount... And, yes, you guesssed it: The ammount you need is either  1) not enough or 2) too much.

    Lets say you need 330 to unlock story chapters. The lowest ammount is 400 and the second is 550. So you have either too many or too few to buy 2 of the things you want.

    Kinda shitty, don't you think?
    Gdemami
    Discord ID: Night # 6102
    Current playing: 
    Elite Dangerous

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    edited April 29
    Nyctelios said:
    tzervo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    Many MMOs have such methods to acquire stuff found in lootboxes from other players (for example, GW2) but they still get a lot of flak.
    They... did some dirt.

    That was the speech, yes. "You can buy gems". You would go and convert X gold for Y gems int he ratio set by the demand...

    Then they changed

    You can't convert X amount anymore. It is a set amount... And, yes, you guesssed it: The ammount you need is either  1) not enough or 2) too much.

    Lets say you need 330 to unlock story chapters. The lowest ammount is 400 and the second is 550. So you have either too many or too few to buy 2 of the things you want.

    Kinda shitty, don't you think?
    If you see this in isolation it looks egregious. Overall no, I do not think it is shitty. I always found their monetization practices fair. They only have box prices, some convenience items, cosmetics (in and out of lootboxes), and story episodes which most get for free just by logging in at the right time. No sub, no power-gap-generating items. I have no issue with them making some money. I never bought lootboxes of any kind (even from them) because I hate not knowing what I get for my money but I never found it getting in my way of getting an in-game item in GW2, or giving them money without feeling bad so that they can generate content I enjoy.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,306
    tzervo said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    Some MMOs have such methods to acquire stuff found in lootboxes from other players (for example, GW2) but they still get a lot of flak.
    Do you own the virtual item?
    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • StizzledStizzled Member RarePosts: 2,110
    Nyctelios said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    Yeah. The difference between Magic the Gathering boosters and gaming loot boxes is that I can purchase cards directly from my friends or from the local game stores without ever putting a dime into the booster packs.

    And, as much Wizards like to forget, boosters are made for draft play, not to pop a couple in hopes you'll get the card you want - thats just bad decision making.

    Nobody in the MTG community will say you should pop some boosters to get a card. Just go and purchase directly from someone from the many sites that sells them. And you also can sell yours so... yeah.

    Video game loot boxes giving no physical prize - no tangible nor permanent resource - that's the issue. It could be solved with a "Steam Market" of sorts which would allow players to exchange between them (with a cut, of course)... but companies would hate that, wouldn't they?

    Even Wizards, time to time, try to battle the secondary market... So much so they gave up and accepted most non rotation formats which are fully fueled by the secondary market. Bye bye brawl.
    Those cards had to come from some official source at some point, they didn't spawn out of the aether. The existence of a secondary market doesn't change the fact that all of those cards were at one point most likely sealed inside a random pack and gotten by chance from someone who "gambled" for it.

    Many digital card games allow players to craft cards in lieu of a secondary market. Most games that offer loot boxes offer the same items in the shop. If it's okay for MTG to sell boosters because you can get cards outside of packs then it should be fine for games to offer loot boxes as long as the same items are available outside the boxes.
    tzervoGdemamiNyctelios
  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    tzervo said:
    Some MMOs have such methods to acquire stuff found in lootboxes from other players (for example, GW2) but they still get a lot of flak.
    Do you own the virtual item?
    No more than you own anything else in game (either paid for with real cash or with time and effort). This has nothing to do with lootboxes though.
    Gdemami
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 13,306
    tzervo said:
    tzervo said:
    Some MMOs have such methods to acquire stuff found in lootboxes from other players (for example, GW2) but they still get a lot of flak.
    Do you own the virtual item?
    No more than you own anything else in game (either paid for with real cash or with time and effort). This has nothing to do with lootboxes though.
    I think it matters more than you realize.
    Gdemami

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

  • tzervotzervo Member EpicPosts: 1,187
    tzervo said:
    tzervo said:
    Some MMOs have such methods to acquire stuff found in lootboxes from other players (for example, GW2) but they still get a lot of flak.
    Do you own the virtual item?
    No more than you own anything else in game (either paid for with real cash or with time and effort). This has nothing to do with lootboxes though.
    I think it matters more than you realize.
    This tells me nothing.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,959
    Stizzled said:
    Nyctelios said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    Yeah. The difference between Magic the Gathering boosters and gaming loot boxes is that I can purchase cards directly from my friends or from the local game stores without ever putting a dime into the booster packs.

    And, as much Wizards like to forget, boosters are made for draft play, not to pop a couple in hopes you'll get the card you want - thats just bad decision making.

    Nobody in the MTG community will say you should pop some boosters to get a card. Just go and purchase directly from someone from the many sites that sells them. And you also can sell yours so... yeah.

    Video game loot boxes giving no physical prize - no tangible nor permanent resource - that's the issue. It could be solved with a "Steam Market" of sorts which would allow players to exchange between them (with a cut, of course)... but companies would hate that, wouldn't they?

    Even Wizards, time to time, try to battle the secondary market... So much so they gave up and accepted most non rotation formats which are fully fueled by the secondary market. Bye bye brawl.
    Those cards had to come from some official source at some point, they didn't spawn out of the aether. The existence of a secondary market doesn't change the fact that all of those cards were at one point most likely sealed inside a random pack and gotten by chance from someone who "gambled" for it.

    Many digital card games allow players to craft cards in lieu of a secondary market. Most games that offer loot boxes offer the same items in the shop. If it's okay for MTG to sell boosters because you can get cards outside of packs then it should be fine for games to offer loot boxes as long as the same items are available outside the boxes.
    Nope. Local game stores order, Idk, 10 boxes, they open 5 and sell 5.

    People who open boxes open the whole box, not single boosters for RNG.

    Come on, this is not a secret. Anyone who plays Magic knows the drill.
    Gdemami
    Discord ID: Night # 6102
    Current playing: 
    Elite Dangerous

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • StizzledStizzled Member RarePosts: 2,110
    Nyctelios said:
    Stizzled said:
    Nyctelios said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    Yeah. The difference between Magic the Gathering boosters and gaming loot boxes is that I can purchase cards directly from my friends or from the local game stores without ever putting a dime into the booster packs.

    And, as much Wizards like to forget, boosters are made for draft play, not to pop a couple in hopes you'll get the card you want - thats just bad decision making.

    Nobody in the MTG community will say you should pop some boosters to get a card. Just go and purchase directly from someone from the many sites that sells them. And you also can sell yours so... yeah.

    Video game loot boxes giving no physical prize - no tangible nor permanent resource - that's the issue. It could be solved with a "Steam Market" of sorts which would allow players to exchange between them (with a cut, of course)... but companies would hate that, wouldn't they?

    Even Wizards, time to time, try to battle the secondary market... So much so they gave up and accepted most non rotation formats which are fully fueled by the secondary market. Bye bye brawl.
    Those cards had to come from some official source at some point, they didn't spawn out of the aether. The existence of a secondary market doesn't change the fact that all of those cards were at one point most likely sealed inside a random pack and gotten by chance from someone who "gambled" for it.

    Many digital card games allow players to craft cards in lieu of a secondary market. Most games that offer loot boxes offer the same items in the shop. If it's okay for MTG to sell boosters because you can get cards outside of packs then it should be fine for games to offer loot boxes as long as the same items are available outside the boxes.
    Nope. Local game stores order, Idk, 10 boxes, they open 5 and sell 5.

    People who open boxes open the whole box, not single boosters for RNG.

    Come on, this is not a secret. Anyone who plays Magic knows the drill.
    What does who opened them, when and how many at a time have to do with anything? A booster pack, digital or physical, is a random assortment of cards. A loot box is a random assortment of items. They are the same thing under different names.
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 6,829
    Stizzled said:
    Nyctelios said:
    Stizzled said:
    Nyctelios said:
    AAAMEOW said:
    Stizzled said:
    I still don't understand the difference between loot boxes and card packs in TCGs and CCGs, other than one is now taboo and the other is perfectly acceptable. If only someone had thought of the children back when I was constantly begging my parents for X-Men card packs.

    To me, this just comes off as the latest angle politicians and regulators are trying to take in proving that video games in general are bad.
    I dont' play trading card games.  But there are a few difference to me.

    1)  You can just buy the card from other people.  And skip the "gambling part"
    2)  You can actually sell the card.  And recover the money you spent.  
    3)  If the price of card go up, you might actually make more money.
    Yeah. The difference between Magic the Gathering boosters and gaming loot boxes is that I can purchase cards directly from my friends or from the local game stores without ever putting a dime into the booster packs.

    And, as much Wizards like to forget, boosters are made for draft play, not to pop a couple in hopes you'll get the card you want - thats just bad decision making.

    Nobody in the MTG community will say you should pop some boosters to get a card. Just go and purchase directly from someone from the many sites that sells them. And you also can sell yours so... yeah.

    Video game loot boxes giving no physical prize - no tangible nor permanent resource - that's the issue. It could be solved with a "Steam Market" of sorts which would allow players to exchange between them (with a cut, of course)... but companies would hate that, wouldn't they?

    Even Wizards, time to time, try to battle the secondary market... So much so they gave up and accepted most non rotation formats which are fully fueled by the secondary market. Bye bye brawl.
    Those cards had to come from some official source at some point, they didn't spawn out of the aether. The existence of a secondary market doesn't change the fact that all of those cards were at one point most likely sealed inside a random pack and gotten by chance from someone who "gambled" for it.

    Many digital card games allow players to craft cards in lieu of a secondary market. Most games that offer loot boxes offer the same items in the shop. If it's okay for MTG to sell boosters because you can get cards outside of packs then it should be fine for games to offer loot boxes as long as the same items are available outside the boxes.
    Nope. Local game stores order, Idk, 10 boxes, they open 5 and sell 5.

    People who open boxes open the whole box, not single boosters for RNG.

    Come on, this is not a secret. Anyone who plays Magic knows the drill.
    What does who opened them, when and how many at a time have to do with anything? A booster pack, digital or physical, is a random assortment of cards. A loot box is a random assortment of items. They are the same thing under different names.
    It matters because if the store opens the random item pack, then it's never opened by a consumer. And gambling laws are meant to prevent consumers from gambling, not to prevent companies from doing whatever the hell they want as long as it doesn't involve any consumer gambling.
    Gdemami
     
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